Sunday, June 17, 2018

Expertise vs. Climate of Opinion: My answer to Rayan M


Affiliation

Source: Scientists data from Pew Research Center for the People & the Press survey, conducted in May and June 2009; (see below fn 17)


In Academic circles, of which I used to aspire, we had something called "climate of opinion." I was  first introduced to this phrase by a professor who advised me to use it for a paper I delivered at a conference it was an academically hip way of saying "this is just appeal to popularity" in  somewhat more respectful way.Last week  Ryan M came to "Skeptical's" defense with the following argument:[1]

Indeed. If we followed Joe's standards, then we 'd need to accept that there is no evidence for human made climate change since there exists some 'experts' who disagree that such evidence exists. According to the old Philpapers survey of philosophers, among philosophers of mind we find that 61% of respondents accept physicalism and 59% accept naturalism. Or consider the philosophers of cognitive science where we find 76% of respondents accept physicalism and 85% accept naturalism.
Are such people 'experts'? I think so, so we have plenty of experts disagreeing with Joe. If we left philosophy and headed over to the sciences, then I'd bet we find a greater consensus among relevant experts that physicalism about the mental is true. Sure, Joe can cite people who claim such people are wrong, but this doesn't justify rejecting the majority.
Playing a citation game is boring and useless.[2]
Ryan, in all fairness, is not arguing that truth lies with the majority opinion,He's assuming that my argument was that because I have some support that justifies a counter view. What  he is missing is that I am cognizant of the reason for the differences. Nevertheless I have been confronted with some atheists arguing that because the majority of philosophical specialists support naturalism belief in God is not valid. These atheists were primarily on CARM years ago.

First let's consider the idea that we should be awed by the fact (?) that the majority in a given field agree on  a view and that should shut us up?  Of course his implication that I was assuming that any support is proof for my view or that I would hold out agaisnt global warming if just one guy agrees against it, Obviously not true since I've written blog pieces defending global warming with the idea that man is the trigger. I actually use the 97% to put it over so in that case I was pulling a move similar to the one he is doing here. The difference is I actually researched the reasons for the 97% (scientists  who agree man is causing global worming) and I  found why they say that. I saw which scientists  are in the 97% (97% of scientists who study climate  not 97% of all scientists but of climatologists). I use the 97% as a short hand for political rhetoric but not without foot noting the details and limits.

Here we are given no idea what constitutes these percentages (except they are philosophers of mind and cognitive science). He asserts they are experts because of what they study,I don't deny that except that it is not supported because we can;'t be  sure of human knowledge at this point. I read his survey a  long time ago (if memory serves I believe David Chalmers was part of that survey and research effort). I don't remember how detailed they are but I'll assuming for the sake of argument that they are all professional philosophers. Even so how does that make them experts on Neuro science? Are philosophers usually trained in nuero science? I had a professor at Perkins who studied at Oxford with John Rawls he said "I am trained in getting my sentences in order." He does study nuero science as an mature he admits:"I really know noting about it," I bet the bulk of Ryan's philosophers have no actual training in nuero science.

 Now in all fairness to  Ryan his groups are philosophers of mind an philosophers of cognitive science. I do assume they have had a lot of exposure to the kind of materiel  a neuroscience resercher would be exposed to. Does that mean they have any real expertise? Their expertise,like my professor from Oxford, is in how to reflect the party line, and getting their sentences in order. I studied Philosophy of science, probably not too well. I know how much of the curriculum exposed me to actual science it was not much in terms of the data pertaining to scientific fact, more so in terms of methodology. I found myself in a seminar class with a biology Ph.D candidate he knew so much more about scoence than anyone I was in class with (and me who knew the least) it was not funny. So how much expertise should we assume these guys have? I am sure they are up on the literature. Does that they know for a fact there is no God? I think that means they don't have the knowledge of neuo sciences that Raymond Talis does, or any of the researchers I quoted.

Even assuming they are on a par with my nuero experts what does that really mean they know? First of all it probably means that most of them accept the bait and switch Chalmer's talks about without questioning it. If he's right about that, he says they do. They equate conciseness with brain function with real basis in doing so, then assume they study consciousness. Chalmers tells us this leaes an explanatory gap,such that claim to to expertise in question of reduceability of mind to brain function isnot acute. There are no real experts, [3] If Dennitt is the standard Of their knowledge I am not intimidated,(see the article in Negations debunking Dennett,[4]They study brain function and call it consciousness, So they are not even studying consciousness the just assume it;s all settled.

Secondly, there is no empirical evidence proving redueability.Both sciences and the general public have come to accept the idea that the mind is dependent upon the brain and that we can reduce mental activity to some specific aspect of the brain upon which it is dependent and by which it is produced. Within this assumption neuroimaging studies are given special credence. These kinds of studies are given special credence probably because the tangibility of their subject matter and the empirical data produced creates the illusion of “proof.”[5] Yet EEG and MRI both have resolution problems and can’t really pin point exactly where neural activity is located.” In short, neuroimaging studies may not be as objective as some would like to think. There are still large gaps between observation and interpretation – gaps that are ‘filled’ by theoretical or methodological assumptions.”[6] Learning is not hard wired but is the result of “Plasticity.” This plasticity is what allows us the flexibility to learn in new situations. This means that most of our neocortex is involved in higher level psychological processes such as learning from experiences.[7] Our brains are developed by new experiences including skills acquisition.[8] Exercise and mediation can change the brain.[9]

            Classical psychological reductionism assumes the mind is essentially the brain. Mental behaviors are explained totally in terms of brain function. Mental states are merely reduced to brain states.

But while it may be true that certain psychological processes are contingent on some neurophysiological activity, we cannot necessarily say that psychological processes reduce to ‘nothing but’ that activity. Why not? – Because much of the time we are not dealing with cause and effect, as many neuroscientists seem to think, but rather two different and non-equivalent kinds of description. One describes mechanism, the other contains meaning. Understanding the physical mechanisms of a clock, for example, tells us nothing about the culturally constructed meaning of time. In a similar vein, understanding the physiological mechanisms underlying the human blink, tells us nothing about the meaning inherent in a human wink (Gergen, 2010). Human meaning often transcends its underlying mechanisms. But how does it do this?[10]

Reducing mind to brain confuses mechanism with meaning.[11]

            Raymond Tallis was a professor of Geriatric medicine at University of Manchester, and researcher, who retired in 2006 to devote himself to philosophy and writing. Tallis denounces what he calls “neurohype,”  “the claims made on behalf of neuroscience in areas outside those in which it has any kind of explanatory power….”[12]

The fundamental assumption is that we are our brains and this, I will argue presently, is not true. But this is not the only reason why neuroscience does not tell us what human beings “really” are: it does not even tell us how the brain works, how bits of the brain work, or (even if you accept the dubious assumption that human living could be parcelled up into a number of discrete functions) which bit of the brain is responsible for which function. The rationale for thinking of the kind – “This bit of the brain houses that bit of us...” – is mind-numbingly simplistic.[13]


Specifically Tallis has refernce to experiments where the brain is scanned while the subject does some activity and the differences are attributed to some structure in that part of the brain. Tallis is highly skeptical of this method.


Why is this fallacious? First, when it is stated that a particular part of the brain lights up in response to a particular stimulus, this is not the whole story. Much more of the brain is already active or lit up; all that can be observed is the additional activity associated with the stimulus. Minor changes noted diffusely are also overlooked. Secondly, the additional activity can be identified only by a process of averaging the results of subtractions after the stimulus has been given repeatedly: variations in the response to successive stimuli are ironed out. Finally, and most importantly, the experiments look at the response to very simple stimuli – for example, a picture of the face of a loved one compared with that of the face of one who is not loved. But, as I have pointed out elsewhere (for the benefit of Martians), romantic love is not like a response to a stimulus. It is not even a single enduring state, like being cold. It encompasses many things, including not feeling in love at that moment; hunger, indifference, delight; wanting to be kind, wanting to impress; worrying over the logistics of meetings; lust, awe, surprise; imagining conversations, events; speculating what the loved one is doing when one is not there; and so on. (The most sophisticated neural imaging, by the way, cannot even distinguish between physical pain and the pain of social rejection: they seem to “light up” the same areas!)[14]


Hal Pashler’s study, University of California, San Diego is discussed in an an editorial in New Scientist, he is quoted as saying  “In most of the studies that linked brain regions to feelings including social rejection, neuroticism and jealousy, researchers … used a method that inflates the strength of the link between a brain region and the emotion of behaviour.”[15]

Let's do some analysis on those stats,

*61% of respondents accept physicalism and 59% accept naturalism.
*philosophers of cognitive science where we find 76% of respondents accept physicalism and 85% accept naturalism. 

61% are physicalists but only 59% are naturalists. That means about 3% are physicalists who believe  in God (or some equivalent "higher power," "ground of being," or what have you).  Now do we really know that this 59% equates to atheists? Not necessarily, because there's good evidence that the answer to that question would be determined by how the question is asked Research scientists look a lot more like believers when asked about liberal God concepts such as process theology or ground of being rather than when asked about big-man-in-sky.[16] Since we do;t know what questions were asked or how they were asked in that regard we don't really need to assume their atheism is as deep as that.

Just using Ryan's logic a majority of scientists actually  believe in God, therefore, chalk one up for belief.

survey of scientists who are members of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, conducted by the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press in May and June 2009, finds that members of this group are, on the whole, much less religious than the general public.1 Indeed, the survey shows that scientists are roughly half as likely as the general public to believe in God or a higher power. According to the poll, just over half of scientists (51%) believe in some form of deity or higher power; specifically, 33% of scientists say they believe in God, while 18% believe in a universal spirit or higher power. By contrast, 95% of Americans believe in some form of deity or higher power, according to a survey of the general public conducted by the Pew Research Center in July 2006. Specifically, more than eight-in-ten Americans (83%) say they believe in God and 12% believe in a universal spirit or higher power. Finally, the poll of scientists finds that four-in-ten scientists (41%) say they do not believe in God or a higher power, while the poll of the public finds that only 4% of Americans share this view.[17]
Not only is there an explanatory gap but there is also a deeper epistemological problem; it's akin to the epistemological fallacy. Because the medium thorough which all our perceptions of the world passes is consciousness all data gathered of the world is marked by and dependent upon mind. It's pretty obvious that mental knowledge is not physical, This is why I can have a whole  world inside  my imagination and my head doesn't explode from lack of room,. They want to pretend that it's all dendrites and electricity but that does not explain the storage problem.

There are no experts on God, We are all experts on having consciousness, Don't let philosophers, scientists,atheists  Christians, priests, Theologians or anyone else tell you what to think.






[1] "Dialogue on Material and Immaterial Existence,"  comment section Metacrock's Blog (June 10,2018)
http://metacrock.blogspot.com/2018/06/dialogue-on-material-and-immaterial.html?showComment=1529105877727#c7384203055418947706


[2] Ibid


[3] David Chalmers,"Facing up to the problem of Consciosuness" Department of Philosophy
University of ArizonaTucson, AZ 85721b (200) Published in the Journal of Consciousness Studies 2(3):200-19, 1995
http://consc.net/papers/facing.html


[4]  Lantz Miller, “the Hard Sell of Human Consciousness, and the recovery of consciousness in the nature of new language. part 1.” Negations: An Interdisciplinary Journal of Social Criticism.Issue 3, Winter 1998. On line copy: URL:http://www.datawranglers.com/negations/ scroll down paet 1 is 1998 part 2 2002.


[5] Brad Peters, Modern Psychologist, “the Mind Does not Reduce to the Brain.” On line resource, blog, 2/4/12
URL: http://modernpsychologist.ca/the-mind-does-not-reduce-to-the-brain/   visited 5/3/12
Brad Peters, M.Sc. Psychologist (Cand. Reg.) • Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
[6] Ibid.
[7] ibid
[8]Schore, A. N. Affect regulation and the origin of the self: The neurobiology of emotional development. Hillsdale, NJ: Lawrence Erlbaum Associates. (1994).
See also: Siegel, D. J. The developing mind: How relationships and the brain interact to shape who we are. New York, NY: Guilford Press. (1999).
[9] Peters, ibid.
[10] ibid.
[11] K. Gergen, The accultured brain. Theory & Psychology, 20(6), (2010).  795-816.
[12] Raymond Tallis New Haumanist.org.uk Ideas for Godless People (blog—online researche) volume 124 Issue 6 (Nov/Dec 2009) URL: http://newhumanist.org.uk/2172/neurotrash  visited 5/9/12
[13] ibid
[14] ibid
[15] quoted by Tallis, ibid.

[16] 


Rodney Stark, a professor of sociology and comparative religion at the University of Washington in Seattle, said that because the questions in the Leuba survey are so narrowly phrased, the results probably underestimate the extent of religious sentiment among scientists. Several recent surveys of American college professors, he said, show that professors are almost as likely to express a belief in God as are Americans as a whole.


see also
Joseph Hinman. "Who is Smarter?: page 2" Doxa, Christian Thought in 21 Century, Private website, 2001.http://www.doxa.ws/other/smarter2.html (access 6/17/18)

I had a Gallup poll that said this straight out I can;t find it, There are several versification in studies dealing with belief among specialized high IQ groups such as scientific members,
This entire section

This next one is extremely amusing because he just dogmatically decides that Unitarians and main line protestants are not religious and than shows that almost all of these accomplished scientists have high numbers of these sorts of people in them. But in fact he's actually proving that a lot of them are religious, and he just assumes that non-fundamentalist Christians equates to non-religious! he's actually giving coutner evidence! STUDIES Of SCIENTISTS:

1. William S. Ament, 1927
"C. C. Little, president of the University of Michigan, checked persons listed in Who's Who in America: "Unitarians, Episcopalians, Congregationalists, Universalists, and Presbyterians [who are less religious] are҆ far more numerous in Who's Who than would be expected on the basis of the population which they form. Baptists, Methodists, and Catholics are distinctly less numerous."So in fact all he's really proven is that intelligence corrollates to liberal notions, but I knew that! That in now way argues for reigious belief corrollating with lesser intelligence and he has no right to assume that these liberal groups are less religious!Ament confirmed Little's conclusion. He noted that Unitarians, the least religious, were more than 40 times as numerous in Who's Who as in the U.S. population.Which actually means that there are many religious people in that category! All he's really proven is that intelligent people may not like organized religion or more conservative religion!"
2. Lehman and Witty, 1931
"Identified 1189 scientists found in both Who's Who (1927) and American Men of Science (1927). Only 25 percent of those listed in the latter and 50 percent of those in the former reported their religious denomination, despite the specific request to do so, under the heading of "religious denomination (if any)." Well over 90 percent of the general population claims religious affiliation. The figure of 25 percent suggests far less religiosity among scientists."
Of course fully half or more didn't report it so we dont' know, but he concludes that slience equals proof for his thesis!Unitarians were 81.4 times as numerous among eminent scientists as non-Unitarians.Which proves? Nothing.
[17] David Masci,"Scientists and belief."  Religion  and public life. Pew Research ,Center,
Website (Nov2009)
http://www.pewforum.org/2009/11/05/scientists-and-belief/

David Masci, Senior Researcher, Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life.

20 comments:

im-skeptical said...

Let me address one particular paragraph of this article, where you argue that empirical evidence doesn't prove reducibility.
>> Secondly, there is no empirical evidence proving redueability.
This is, of course, a straw man. Nobody (that I know of), and especially not the scientific community, is asserting proof. They present evidence to back up their claims, and the evidence for physical mind is very strong, just as it is for anthropogenic global climate change. How many times have you made the same point about scientific "proof", and how many times have you heard the response that science is always tentative? It doesn't claim to prove anything. Yet, you keep coming back to this - trying to debunk the scientific community on the grounds that they don't have "proof".

Then, you use two examples to make your point. One is the resolution level of neuroimaging technologies.
>> Yet EEG and MRI both have resolution problems and can’t really pin point exactly where neural activity is located.” In short, neuroimaging studies may not be as objective as some would like to think.
Frankly, I don't see how this helps you make your point at all. So what if the resolution isn't fine enough to pinpoint individual neurons involved in some mental activity? That doesn't change the fact that we can see this activity happening in the physical brain. And there's nothing about this that makes the imaging non-objective. The fact remains that neuroimaging is strong evidence IN SUPPORT of the physical nature of mental activity.

The second example you bring up is the plasticity of the brain.
>> Learning is not hard wired but is the result of “Plasticity.” This plasticity is what allows us the flexibility to learn in new situations. This means that most of our neocortex is involved in higher level psychological processes such as learning from experiences.
That's exactly right. Who ever said that learning is "hard-wired"? You don't grok what all this means. I don't think you understand what plasticity is. It is the PHYSICAL restructuring of neural connections in response to our experiences. It's how the brain learns things. It shapes the way we respond to various situations. And it is purely, 100% physical. No immaterial woo involved. So once again, I don't see how you think this helps you to make your point. Is is actually very strong evidence IN SUPPORT of the physical nature of mental activity.

JBsptfn said...

Those studies only show that the brain is responsible for cognitive function and motor skills. It has nothing to do with consciousness. Atheists always try to lump that in with the former, which is wrong.

Joe Hinman said...

Bsptfn said...
Those studies only show that the brain is responsible for cognitive function and motor skills. It has nothing to do with consciousness. Atheists always try to lump that in with the former, which is wrong.

yes exactly that's what I mean by the bait ad switch.

Joe Hinman said...

m-skeptical said...
Let me address one particular paragraph of this article, where you argue that empirical evidence doesn't prove reducibility.
>> Secondly, there is no empirical evidence proving redueability.
This is, of course, a straw man. Nobody (that I know of), and especially not the scientific community, is asserting proof.

You have not read Dennett's consciousness experimental,of course they do all the time.



They present evidence to back up their claims, and the evidence for physical mind is very strong, just as it is for anthropogenic global climate change.

this is an informal fallacy,arguing from analogy


How many times have you made the same point about scientific "proof", and how many times have you heard the response that science is always tentative?


Bullshit answer, you are just playing off of semantics



It doesn't claim to prove anything. Yet, you keep coming back to this - trying to debunk the scientific community on the grounds that they don't have "proof".

there is no evidence that the mind is physical, there is only evidence that it is accessed through physical routes, not the same thing,

Then, you use two examples to make your point. One is the resolution level of neuroimaging technologies.
>> Yet EEG and MRI both have resolution problems and can’t really pin point exactly where neural activity is located.” In short, neuroimaging studies may not be as objective as some would like to think.
Frankly, I don't see how this helps you make your point at all. So what if the resolution isn't fine enough to pinpoint individual neurons involved in some mental activity? That doesn't change the fact that we can see this activity happening in the physical brain. And there's nothing about this that makes the imaging non-objective. The fact remains that neuroimaging is strong evidence IN SUPPORT of the physical nature of mental activity.

the point i made by priest of knowledge Ray Talis, obviously it matters because your little fortress of facts is based entirely upon such diagnostician equipment,

Joe Hinman said...

The second example you bring up is the plasticity of the brain.
>> Learning is not hard wired but is the result of “Plasticity.” This plasticity is what allows us the flexibility to learn in new situations. This means that most of our neocortex is involved in higher level psychological processes such as learning from experiences.
That's exactly right. Who ever said that learning is "hard-wired"? You don't grok what all this means. I don't think you understand what plasticity is.


functionalists and reductionists constantly use the idea of brain damage as correlate between parts of the brain and mental ability. From That they draw the conclusion that consciousnesses is just empiphenomenal and brain function is all there is.that assumes a hard wired correlation tween part of the brain and what it the mind can do.All that is from Talis. why is he talking acquit it if it's not an answer to someone?


It is the PHYSICAL restructuring of neural connections in response to our experiences. It's how the brain learns things. It shapes the way we respond to various situations. And it is purely, 100% physical.

That doesn't mean there is mental dimension It means associations between parts of the rain and consciousness are not hardwired. So far youh have offered no evidence that mind is psychical;saying it is not proving it,


No immaterial woo involved.

that's all you've got, mocking and ridiculing ideas you don't understated flapping yourgums, you have no evidence any kind, you do not understand the basic concepts being discussed,


So once again, I don't see how you think this helps you to make your point. Is is actually very strong evidence IN SUPPORT of the physical nature of mental activity.

how? You offer nothingas evidencem youha e no sourcesmyoudon;tquoteqanyexperts,youhavefactsorfigurews,younever prestendany thingthatwould actuallyindicates aphys8ical concsouiess fo rmind,

againoncea gain youtotoallyignorethatthewepxertssay, quote Talisagain

"The fundamental assumption is that we are our brains and this, I will argue presently, is not true. But this is not the only reason why neuroscience does not tell us what human beings “really” are: it does not even tell us how the brain works, how bits of the brain work, or (even if you accept the dubious assumption that human living could be parcelled up into a number of discrete functions) which bit of the brain is responsible for which function. The rationale for thinking of the kind – “This bit of the brain houses that bit of us...” – is mind-numbingly simplistic"




I arguned that no empirical evidence supports redirection of mind to brain function, You offer no such evidence I fail to see how your childish mockery of my view in any sense disproves my point,

I say no evince you don't give me any I think that's one for me,


Joe Hinman said...

remember that statement by Talis:

"neuroscience does not tell us what human beings “really” are: it does not even tell us how the brain works,"

"neuroscience does not tell us what human beings “really” are: it does not even tell us how the brain works,"

"neuroscience does not tell us what human beings “really” are: it does not even tell us how the brain works,"

"neuroscience does not tell us what human beings “really” are: it does not even tell us how the brain works,"

"neuroscience does not tell us what human beings “really” are: it does not even tell us how the brain works,"

"neuroscience does not tell us what human beings “really” are: it does not even tell us how the brain works,"

"neuroscience does not tell us what human beings “really” are: it does not even tell us how the brain works,"

"neuroscience does not tell us what human beings “really” are: it does not even tell us how the brain works,"

"neuroscience does not tell us what human beings “really” are: it does not even tell us how the brain works,"

"neuroscience does not tell us what human beings “really” are: it does not even tell us how the brain works,"

"neuroscience does not tell us what human beings “really” are: it does not even tell us how the brain works,"

"neuroscience does not tell us what human beings “really” are: it does not even tell us how the brain works,"

"neuroscience does not tell us what human beings “really” are: it does not even tell us how the brain works,"

"neuroscience does not tell us what human beings “really” are: it does not even tell us how the brain works,"

"neuroscience does not tell us what human beings “really” are: it does not even tell us how the brain works,"

"neuroscience does not tell us what human beings “really” are: it does not even tell us how the brain works,"

"neuroscience does not tell us what human beings “really” are: it does not even tell us how the brain works,"

"neuroscience does not tell us what human beings “really” are: it does not even tell us how the brain works,"




im-skeptical said...

I once argued with a denier of evolution science. The guy was much like you. He refused to listen to anything the scientific community put forward as evidence for their strongly held position. I showed him a site that contained a large compendium of relevant information, and he rejected all of it without so much as looking at it, insisting that there was no evidence for it. The guy is a moron who has his head in the sand. (And he's one of JBsptfn's favorite blog hosts, by the way.)

Tallis is a purveyor of immaterialist woo. And you don't know anything about neuroscience. Nor will you learn it by reading the anti-science rantings of Tallis. I suggest you read some real science before you try to tell the world what neuroscience can do.

Ryan M said...

"yes exactly that's what I mean by the bait ad switch."

Right, and you'll let him generalize atheists. Joe, Chalmers is an atheist, and Chalmers is a dualist, so JB's claim is false. Don't cheer on comments that are false. Allowing that guy to comment (when every comment from him is intentionally negative against atheists) makes you seem like a very biased bloghost. You fail the Secular Outpost standards.

Joe Hinman said...

Blogger im-skeptical said...
I once argued with a denier of evolution science. The guy was much like you. He refused to listen to anything the scientific community put forward as evidence for their strongly held position.

you Pseudo intellectual jackass,you refuse to listen to seine, You are fascistic narrow minded little drip, if you were conditioning an experiment and it showed your hypothesis to be wrong you record the results in such a way as to make it confirm you view on the grounds that anything that counts Agilent your view has to be wrong,that's exactly what you are saying the facts don't matter, the party line is all thkat matters.

face reality you lost, you have been defeated by your own little, narrow mkimd



I showed him a site that contained a large compendium of relevant information, and he rejected all of it without so much as looking at it, insisting that there was no evidence for it. The guy is a moron who has his head in the sand. (And he's one of JBsptfn's favorite blog hosts, by the way.)

you have presents not one piece of faience, Not one smidgen, but I have, i am the only one here with evidence you are pretending it doens;t matter. you have n;t named a single name of any study or expert, nothing.you ahave no evidence,,

Tallis is a purveyor of immaterialist woo.


woo is a term your little seine cult made up it merely mere ?this is that which we refresher to recognize because it resists your control,,


And you don't know anything about neuroscience.

I knkow more than you do , I have actually made arguments, your only Tarkenton is this can;t be true because it constricts my science cult,


Nor will you learn it by reading the anti-science rantings of Tallis. I suggest you read some real science before you try to tell the world what neuroscience can do.


you have nothing to offer our discussions,,

Joe Hinman said...

Look at his arguemnt, Thelogicheuises is this"


creationism is wrong because it goes against the grain of scientific opinion. He lot'/s of evidence on that one.So anything that goes against majority pinon in sickness we can just assume must be wrong and we can just assume the evidence would prove that if we had any.

He is committingthe fallacy ofarugemnt from analogy he is ot comnsideringhte distimnctio in subjeatte,

im-skeptical said...

you have nothing to offer our discussions

- Let's return to the two objection I raised.

How does the resolution of imaging equipment argue against the physical nature of mind? Your only answer was this: the point i made by priest of knowledge Ray Talis, obviously it matters because your little fortress of facts is based entirely upon such diagnostician equipment" But that doesn't answer the question. HOW does it matter? Explain it.

I asked a similar question with regard to plasticity. You said: "functionalists and reductionists constantly use the idea of brain damage as correlate between parts of the brain and mental ability. From That they draw the conclusion that consciousnesses is just empiphenomenal and brain function is all there is.that assumes a hard wired correlation tween part of the brain and what it the mind can do.All that is from Talis. why is he talking acquit it if it's not an answer to someone?" But the fact is that neuroscientists DO NOT assume hard-wiring of the brain. They use the term 'plasticity' to describe the FLEXIBLE WIRING of the brain. So why does Tallis bring this up? Because he knows his audience is a bunch of religious cretins who don't know the first thing about neuroscience, and that's how he makes his money. Now please explain how this discounts the physical nature of mind - not just by repeating the claims of Tallis. Tell me how it works.

Joe Hinman said...

Let's return to the two objection I raised.

How does the resolution of imaging equipment argue against the physical nature of mind? Your only answer was this: the point i made by priest of knowledge Ray Talis, obviously it matters because your little fortress of facts is based entirely upon such diagnostician equipment" But that doesn't answer the question. HOW does it matter? Explain it.

You totally ignore my real answer. (1) Talis said it (2)U saud iut was cinnected t his statement that what? say it with me: neuroscience does not tell us what human beings “really” are: it does not even tell us how the brain works,"

I asked a similar question with regard to plasticity. You said: "functionalists and reductionists constantly use the idea of brain damage as correlate between parts of the brain and mental ability. From That they draw the conclusion that consciousnesses is just empiphenomenal and brain function is all there is.that assumes a hard wired correlation tween part of the brain and what it the mind can do.All that is from Talis. why is he talking acquit it if it's not an answer to someone?" But the fact is that neuroscientists DO NOT assume hard-wiring of the brain. They use the term 'plasticity' to describe the FLEXIBLE WIRING of the brain.

Did you catch the mistake class? I said:""functionalists and reductionists constantly use the idea..." He says "neuroscientists DO NOT assume hard-wiring" see the difference?I did not say nuro scienitsts do that I said reductionist do and they do because that is germane to their position. it sure as hell is the case that those nuero scineistswho are reductionist do that, that is who Talis was speaking about.

So why does Tallis bring this up? Because he knows his audience is a bunch of religious cretins who don't know the first thing about neuroscience, and that's how he makes his money. Now please explain how this discounts the physical nature of mind - not just by repeating the claims of Tallis. Tell me how it works.

O look the great genius is doing his Trump impression, Tailis is an atheist why would he want religious Pelee as his base?

Coward, intellectual pussy! you can't argue familiarity, can't allow evidence to count agaisnt your view and you are too stupid to see that is not an endorsement it;s a disprove of your ideology, dumb ass!

Meanwhile you still have no evidence nothing at all to back your assertions and your arguments riddled with fallacies: argent from analogy, guilt by association, and question begging.

thanks for supporting my positiion

im-skeptical said...

You totally ignore my real answer
- No, you totally ignore the question I posed. You haven't explained how the resolution of imaging devices can somehow serve as an argument against physical mind. You are diverting (which is a very Trumpian tactic.) And the reason you divert is because you don't have an answer. Repeating what Tallis says does not answer the question. And the idea that neuroscience does not tell us what humanity is has NOTHING to do with the question. But neuroscience DOES seek to explain how the brain works. It may not have all the answers as yet, but that's what it does. Nevertheless, you have not answered my question.


Did you catch the mistake class? I said:""functionalists and reductionists constantly use the idea..." He says "neuroscientists DO NOT assume hard-wiring" see the difference?
As it happens, the vast majority of neuroscientists (something close to 100%) believe that mind is entirely physical. (And Tallis does not have a scientific view of mind, so I would hesitate to call him a neuroscientist.) Perhaps that's not what you call 'reductionist'. You have never explained meaning of the terminology you use. That's not my fault. You are notorious for having your own private definitions for things, which inevitably results in failure to communicate effectively. If you are talking about something different, then why don't you tell us exactly what you're talking about?


O look the great genius is doing his Trump impression, Tailis is an atheist why would he want religious Pelee as his base?
- I don't care if he is an atheist. That's not the basis of my judgment. He is a peddler of unscientific immaterialist woo. And his AUDIENCE is believers in unscientific woo - mostly religious people who see his material as supportive of their own unscientific views. It's a larger audience than scientific minded people, so he can sell more books. And you buy that crap.


Coward, intellectual pussy! you can't argue familiarity, can't allow evidence to count agaisnt your view and you are too stupid to see that is not an endorsement it;s a disprove of your ideology, dumb ass!
- You still haven't answered my questions. Who's the real intellectual pussy?

Joe Hinman said...


Blogger im-skeptical said...
You totally ignore my real answer
- No, you totally ignore the question I posed. You haven't explained how the resolution of imaging devices can somehow serve as an argument against physical mind. You are diverting (which is a very Trumpian tactic.)

several times.I said Tallis said it he had a reason and his reason had to do with the quality of the research, which is suspect,so their conclusions are suspect.

that i not evidence, Asking a question about one tiny aspect of my overall argument is not a valid attack. You have not dealt with the arguments, you have presented no data,



And the reason you divert is because you don't have an answer. Repeating what Tallis says does not answer the question.

Obviously it does since you were pretending to answer his argument in the first place.


And the idea that neuroscience does not tell us what humanity is has NOTHING to do with the question.

that is imbecilic!,if you don't understated that you don't need to be here wasting our time with your ignorant prattle; the idea of what we are means totally physical, sacks of chemicals and electricity rather than minds, or rather than strips thinking people.

But neuroscience DOES seek to explain how the brain works. It may not have all the answers as yet, but that's what it does. Nevertheless, you have not answered my question.

you are just rationizing the fact that just you just lost the argument! come off it man, the whole issue was reduction of mind to brain. If you don't know how the brain works then there gores the whole ball game, you can;t argue reduction of ind to brain,

Joe Hinman said...

Did you catch the mistake class? I said:""functionalists and reductionists constantly use the idea..." He says "neuroscientists DO NOT assume hard-wiring" see the difference?

Tallis did not say that you did, you have no proof ,you have no evidence , you did not quote a sentinel source,


As it happens, the vast majority of neuroscientists (something close to 100%) believe that mind is entirely physical.

show me some evidence, why should l take your word?I have quoted four neuroscientists who who disagree Tallis being one so obviously it's not 100%. in philosophers of mind 40% disagree,I betting it;s a lot in sciences too.

as a matter of fact the benevolence I posted today says there is no consensus in the field,


________quote_______
"The field remains highly controversial. There is no consensus among researchers about the significance of findings [free will], their meaning, or what conclusions may be drawn. The precise role of consciousness in decision making therefore remains unclear.
Thinkers like Daniel Dennett or Alfred Mele consider the language used by researchers. They explain that "free will" means many different things to different people (e.g. some notions of free will are dualistic, some not). Dennett insists that many important and common conceptions of "free will" are compatible with the emerging evidence from neuroscience.[3][a][b][c][d]"____close_________

[3] "Nuroscience of Free will," Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_free_will



[a] Henrik Walter (2001). "Chapter 1: Free will: Challenges, arguments, and theories". Neurophilosophy of free will: From libertarian illusions to a concept of natural autonomy (Cynthia Klohr translation of German 1999 ed.). MIT Press. p. 1. ISBN 9780262265034.

Jump up



[b]7^ John Martin Fischer; Robert Kane; Derk Perebom; Manuel Vargas (2007). "A brief introduction to some terms and concepts". Four Views on Free Will. Wiley-Blackwell. ISBN 978-1405134866.



[c]^ Smith, Kerri (2011). "Neuroscience vs philosophy: Taking aim at free will". Nature. 477 (7362): 23–5. doi:10.1038/477023a. PMID 21886139.



[d]^ Daniel C. Dennett (2014). "Chapter VIII: Tools for thinking about free will". Intuition Pumps And Other Tools for Thinking. W. W. Norton & Company. p. 355. ISBN 9780393348781.









(And Tallis does not have a scientific view of mind, so I would hesitate to call him a neuroscientist.) Perhaps that's not what you call 'reductionist'.


O brother by "scientific" you mean agreement with you. you live in a buble.


Joe Hinman said...

I've had it with you .I can't wait for you to finish undergraduate school and learn something you are dragging it all down, rather than discussing ideas wish people who want to think I;m correcting your sophomoric ignorance Just go away.

Joe Hinman said...

The post I put up today gives a lot of evidence and documents it showing
reasons to doubt redirection of mind to brain.

im-skeptical said...

We can all take note that you have refused to answer the questions I posed at the beginning of this "discussion".

And we can also note that your shameless use quotes from people who are in the physicalist camp to support your position in favor of immaterialist woo only goes to show that you don't understand what they mean.

7th Stooge said...

- I don't care if he is an atheist. That's not the basis of my judgment. He is a peddler of unscientific immaterialist woo. And his AUDIENCE is believers in unscientific woo - mostly religious people who see his material as supportive of their own unscientific views. It's a larger audience than scientific minded people, so he can sell more books. And you buy that crap.

Question begging, ad hom and appeal to motive.

7th Stooge said...

And implied guilt by association. That's pretty impressive for just six sentences!