https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvkgRy2KIdg
Caveats:
A good exposition on hell as taught in the Bible. I don;t necessarily agree with all he says,
Lex Myer, the grafted church. Oklahoma City. They are legalistic "Jewish: Christians,"
Torah observant Jewish Christians. I do not endorse this group but I do like what he says in this episode.
15 comments:
The Old testament concept of Sheol (where all dead people go to sleep) in definitely not the same thing as the "lake of fire" (where the wicked go to be punished for eternity) found in the New Testament.
Hell, judgment, angels and the like are not from original Jewish influence but from later Persian influence.
he that's right man
From the Apocalypse of Peter:
20. And over against that place I saw another, squalid, and it was the place of punishment; and those who were punished there and the punishing angels had their raiment dark like the air of the place.
21. And there were certain there hanging by the tongue: and these were the blasphemers of the way of righteousness; and under them lay fire, burning and punishing them. 22. And there was a great lake, full of flaming mire, in which were certain men that pervert righteousness, and tormenting angels afflicted them.
23. And there were also others, women, hanged by their hair over that mire that bubbled up: and these were they who adorned themselves for adultery; and the men who mingled with them in the defilement of adultery, were hanging by the feet and their heads in that mire. And I said: I did not believe that I should come into this place.
24. And I saw the murderers and those who conspired with them, cast into a certain strait place, full of evil snakes, and smitten by those beasts, and thus turning to and fro in that punishment; and worms, as it were clouds of darkness, afflicted them. And the souls of the murdered stood and looked upon the punishment of those murderers and said: O God, thy judgment is just.
25. And near that place I saw another strait place into which the gore and the filth of those who were being punished ran down and became there as it were a lake: and there sat women having the gore up to their necks, and over against them sat many children who were born to them out of due time, crying; and there came forth from them sparks of fire and smote the women in the eyes: and these were the accursed who conceived and caused abortion.
26. And other men and women were burning up to the middle and were cast into a dark place and were beaten by evil spirits, and their inwards were eaten by restless worms: and these were they who persecuted the righteous and delivered them up.
27. And near those there were again women and men gnawing their own lips, and being punished and receiving a red-hot iron in their eyes: and these were they who blasphemed and slandered the way of righteousness.
28. And over against these again other men and women gnawing their tongues and having flaming fire in their mouths: and these were the false witnesses.
29. And in a certain other place there were pebbles sharper than swords or any spit, red-hot, and women and men in tattered and filthy raiment rolled about on them in punishment: and these were the rich who trusted in their riches and had no pity for orphans and widows, and despised the commandment of God.
30. And in another great lake, full of pitch and blood and mire bubbling up, there stood men and women up to their knees: and these were the usurers and those who take interest on interest.
31. And other men and women were being hurled down from a great cliff and reached the bottom, and again were driven by those who were set over them to climb up upon the cliff, and thence were hurled down again, and had no rest from this punishment: and these were they who defiled their bodies acting as women; and the women who were with them were those who lay with one another as a man with a woman.
32. And alongside of that cliff there was a place full of much fire, and there stood men who with their own hands had made for themselves carven images instead of God. And alongside of these were other men and women, having rods and striking each other and never ceasing from such punishment.
33. And others again near them, women and men, burning and turning themselves and roasting: and these were they that leaving the way of God.
That's a non sequitur
That's a non sequitur
- Christianity is a non sequitur. The bible tells us about the lake of fire, where people are tormented for eternity. Peter elaborates on the same concept. Despite the fact that this is all quite ridiculous, it has been the most commonly view of hell for two millennia. The fact that SOME Christians have a different view of it does not change what most Christians have believed about hell.
im-skeptical said...
The Old testament concept of Sheol (where all dead people go to sleep) in definitely not the same thing as the "lake of fire" (where the wicked go to be punished for eternity) found in the New Testament.
The former is OT the latter is NT, So you have different theological milieux.
The only mention made in the Bible of the lake of fire is Revelation which is an apocalyptic book so its a symbol. Not a literal place.
Apocalypse of Peter: not canonical
im-skeptical said...
That's a non sequitur
- Christianity is a non sequitur. The bible tells us about the lake of fire, where people are tormented for eternity. Peter elaborates on the same concept. Despite the fact that this is all quite ridiculous, it has been the most commonly view of hell for two millennia. The fact that SOME Christians have a different view of it does not change what most Christians have believed about hell.
go to school and learn something, stop wasting my time with ignorant assumptions that I saw thorough years ago. you stunted your theological growth by becoming an artiest so you don't know anything, you are trying to dictate theology based upon your childish understanding,
you have no understanding of human development, i went trough the stage you are in theologically years ago,
- Christianity is a non sequitur. The bible tells us about the lake of fire, where people are tormented for eternity. Peter elaborates on the same concept. Despite the fact that this is all quite ridiculous, it has been the most commonly view of hell for two millennia. The fact that SOME Christians have a different view of it does not change what most Christians have believed about hell.
You began by saying that the ancient concept of Sheol was different from the Christian concept of Hell. I thought you were asking why there was inconsistency between the OT and the NT ideas of what happens after death, not whether there was internal inconsistency in the NT concept of Hell. It sounds like you're back on the topic from the other thread you did to death with Joe.
The former is OT the latter is NT, So you have different theological milieux.
- That's what I said. The Hebrew concept of Sheol is not the same as the Christian concept of hell. I just goes to show that theological views change. As it happens, this concept was borrowed from the Egyptians, just like so many other aspects of Christian belief were incorporated from other religions.
The only mention made in the Bible of the lake of fire is Revelation which is an apocalyptic book so its a symbol. Not a literal place.
- I showed you other references, such as the one in Mark (for one) that describes hell as the place "where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED". The Apocalypse of Peter brings more clarity to what they had in mind.
Apocalypse of Peter: not canonical
It reflected the Christian thought that was in vogue. But if you insist on sticking to canonical books, I'll remind you of your hypocrisy when you cite non-canonical references to support your own points.
you have no understanding of human development, i went trough the stage you are in theologically years ago
- Joe, you never graduated to a stage of independent thinking. You are boxed in. You are extremely limited by your utter refusal to see anything outside your little religious bubble.
the former is OT the latter is NT, So you have different theological milieux.
- That's what I said. The Hebrew concept of Sheol is not the same as the Christian concept of hell. I just goes to show that theological views change. As it happens, this concept was borrowed from the Egyptians, just like so many other aspects of Christian belief were incorporated from other religions.
when the church went gentile they fell back on their Greek roots. But the NT teaching about hell is almost always in parable or symbolic,
The only mention made in the Bible of the lake of fire is Revelation which is an apocalyptic book so its a symbol. Not a literal place.
- I showed you other references, such as the one in Mark (for one) that describes hell as the place "where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED". The Apocalypse of Peter brings more clarity to what they had in mind.
Apocalypse of Peter: not canonical
It reflected the Christian thought that was in vogue. But if you insist on sticking to canonical books, I'll remind you of your hypocrisy when you cite non-canonical references to support your own points.
Since the book is in the genre of Jewish apocalyptic you have to decode it with an understanding of that kind of Jewish thought, you keep projecting the latter Greek reading on it because it;s all you know, it makes your hatred of God worth while. If God is good and reasonable your Hatred is exposed as irrational
you have no understanding of human development, i went trough the stage you are in theologically years ago
- Joe, you never graduated to a stage of independent thinking. You are boxed in. You are extremely limited by your utter refusal to see anything outside your little religious bubble.
you just contradicted yourself, you have been telling me how my view is out of sink with Christianity now you are saying I have no original ideas I guess you will drop the line that im out of sink?
that's pretty irrational of you, try to have it both ways
2:01 PM Delete
- I showed you other references, such as the one in Mark (for one) that describes hell as the place "where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED". The Apocalypse of Peter brings more clarity to what they had in mind.
in a parable
Apocalypse of Peter: not canonical
It reflected the Christian thought that was in vogue. But if you insist on sticking to canonical books,
Obviously hot since it would be canonical if it did
I'll remind you of your hypocrisy when you cite non-canonical references to support your own points
I refer to non canonical documents as archaeological artifacts you are using this to regulate doctrine,
btw get your lying little hands off my belief system. you have no right to speak for a faith you dispize and malign. you have given up your right to speak for it,
btw get your lying little hands off my belief system. you have no right to speak for a faith you dispize and malign. you have given up your right to speak for it
- I get that you have no rational defense for your beliefs, and you don't want to face up to any serious challenge. But I have never ceded my right to speak out against bullshit. I would add that you routinely make false statements about what I believe, my education, my epistemology, my morality, what things I love or hate, etc. Despite all your lies, I never tried to deny your right to speak.
btw get your lying little hands off my belief system. you have no right to speak for a faith you dispize and malign. you have given up your right to speak for it
- I get that you have no rational defense for your beliefs, and you don't want to face up to any serious challenge.
you don't know a circular argent from a modus tollens, your grasp on logic in argument is so tenuous that that is a totally painlessness statement coming from you
But I have never ceded my right to speak out against bullshit. I would add that you routinely make false statements about what I believe, my education, my epistemology, my morality, what things I love or hate, etc. Despite all your lies, I never tried to deny your right to speak.
you don;t know jack shit about theology ,you are unqualified to criticize my ideas,I;ve torn apart your crap you don't even get it because you know nothing,
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