Jurgen Moltmann April 8, 1926 (age 92 years), Hamburg, Germany
Talk of reasons for the resurrection (last week) [1] made me think how incomplete that whole discussion was, First because it put God on human terms by giving a full discussion of reasom (I accept God must be rational,but not as we are rational,oblivious God would be the source of the rational, logos, not just another rational being on a par with logicians. Secondly, asking for reasons for the resurrection (or "a reason") put's God on par with human reason and human calculating. There is more than just "a reason" for it, the event itself is not merely one more in a series of "one-damn-thing-after-another" that makes history but is in fact a source of sublation in historie's dialectical process, We see this in the use Jurgen Moltmann makes of eschatology, and in his rules change argument from Theology of Hope,[2]
I affirm the literal resurrection of Christ, as I affirm the Nicene creed. Unfortunately, affirming it and proving it are two different things. Many apologists try to use the Resurrection as proof in itself that Jesus was the Son of God. The problem is, the event itself has to be proven, and is of equal dispute to the claims of Christ deity. Thus, I doubt that it makes a great tool for verifying the claims of the faith, since it is itself such a claim. On the other hand, let us ask ourselves, "was the true purpose of the resurrection as a proof of Jesus validity?" I think not. I think the true purpose was not to offer modern scientific "courtroom evidence" of the event (they did not have that standard), but to confirm in a religious way, for insiders, by provision of an important symbol.
My answer on reasons for the resurrection used the concept of symbolism, I was taken aback by a statement on SOP that symbolism is important to ancient primate people as though modern people do;t use symbols. [3] Tillich has managed to make use of symbols, he says that a symbol participates in the thing it symbolizes. Thus a bull fighter dying young is a symbol of darning courage going awry, but a non specific figure like the American flag is not a symbol but an embalm. Thus the resurrection of Christ can be a theological symbol and still be a real event! Thus the true importance of the event is its theological significance and not its market place value as an apologetical tool.
Historians have argued that a view like that of the resurrection of Christ can't be understood as a historical event, thus can't be proved by historical evidence because history is intrinsically naturalistic. Historians must make naturalistic assumptions thus a miracle can't play a role in history. The first thing to notice about this argument is that far from contradicting what I've said, it supports my position in that I argue that atheist's only have ideological objections to the resurrection. There's no historically based disproof. If untrained non-historian apologists mistakenly argue "this is historical" the atheists objections are not based upon disproving the historically based evidence they are only based upon ideological assumptions. Evoking the rules of history is also ideological assumption.
Eschatology in Theology of Hope.
In his great ground breaking work, Theology of Hope (1964) Jurgen Moltmann re-positions eschatology transforming it from a lose appendix (last things) to a dynamic aspect of the Hegelian understanding of history. The Hegelian aspect is not important, what is important is that "the last things," the eschatological element becomes: the horizon of hope; the point from which we take our focus of history not the past where we have been but the future where we are headed. The Resurrection is a focal point or a "strange attracter"as it were for the point to which history moves, the consummation of creator and creation. That is not a Moltmonnian phrase, yo put it in Moltmann;s terms, "eschatology means the doctrine of Christian Hope which embraces both the object hoped for and the hope inspired y it...the medium of Christian faith as such..."[4]
The History Making Concept.
He argues, the rules of history exclude the miraculous. This is because historians, as heirs to the enlightenment, automatically exclude the supernatural. For this reason the resurrection cannot be seen as historical, a priori, for the rules of making history are set by an ideology of metaphysical assumptions which dogmatically excludes anything miraculous. History must be predicated upon the assumption of a coherent natural world, therefore, the supernatural cannot be part of history.[5] Yet he felt it was important to make a place for the resurrection in modern thought. So he argued for changing the rules. Rather than calling the resurrection "historical" he calls it "history making." The belief itself has shaped the outline of historical event. This is apart from the question of its truth content, the fact of belief in it made history what it is. This introduces the concept of understanding the belief as history making thus the evidence that supports the belief is also history making. His solution: change the rules. We wont call it "historical" but "history making."
Skeptics are too quick to argue that the resurrection is not historical fact. In modernity we have gained an anti-supernatural bias, and so the believer is forced to ask rhetorical questions like "did Jesus raise form the dead?" and then to answer them rhetorically. Moltmann changes the rules. Rather than ask if the resurrection is "historical" he merely argues that it doesn't have to be, it is history making. We change the rules of the debate because predicated upon the preaching of the resurrection is one of the most profound developments of world history; the growth of the Christian faith which has shaped the entire Western tradition. We view the Resurrection of Christ as history making because the belief in it did change history, the doctrine of it has made history, and belief today shapes the basis of all Christian doctrine. We put aside the hypocritical skepticism of naturalistic circular arguments and allow ourselves to accept the verdict of a history that has been made by faith in the event, in light of the fact that there is enough there to base faith upon. (see Jurgen Moltmann, The Crucified God, 1968).
The doctrine furnishes the basis for hope, when grasped in faith, that offers a much more profound answer to any of questions about life and death than any form of skepticism or pride in confusion ever could. Rather than merely declare a rules change, I will argue that this rules change is warranted based upon the evidence. In other words, not that the resurrection can be "proven" in the same sense that any other aspect of historical research can be proven, but that the resurrection evidence is credible enough that one can feel confident in asserting its truth as a tenet of faith. The actual case can never be proven, or disproved, but the evidence allows one to believe with impunity.
In keeping with my policy of enlightening the reader about my sources, I must point out that I do lean heavily upon two major evangelical sources here: F.F. Bruce, and William Lane Craig. Bruce is, however, one of the most highly respected Evangelical scholars, even among the liberal camp, and Craig is renown as a highly credible and effective apologist. The other sources such as D. E. H. Whiteley, Stephen Neil, Gaalyah Cornfeld, and Luke Timothy Johnson are basically liberal or moderate.A few major liberal theologians, such as Moltmann and Wolfhart Pannenberg have defended faith in the resurrection.
Historical Verdict Reversed
As William Lane Craig puts it:
Before the apologist can even posit the turth of the resurrection, his truth is refuted by the very nature of historical "facts" as modern thought construes them; supernatural events cannot be part of history. But Moltmann turns this around on the nature of modern thought by arguing that before modern thought can posit a naturalistic history, the content of history is already shaped by supernatural claims.
He argues, the rules of history exclude the miraculous. This is because historians, as heirs to the enlightenment, automatically exclude the supernatural. For this reason the resurrection cannot be seen as historical, a priori, for the rules of making history are set by an ideology of metaphysical assumptions which dogmatically excludes anything miraculous. History must be predicated upon the assumption of a coherent natural world, therefore, the supernatural cannot be part of history.[5] Yet he felt it was important to make a place for the resurrection in modern thought. So he argued for changing the rules. Rather than calling the resurrection "historical" he calls it "history making." The belief itself has shaped the outline of historical event. This is apart from the question of its truth content, the fact of belief in it made history what it is. This introduces the concept of understanding the belief as history making thus the evidence that supports the belief is also history making. His solution: change the rules. We wont call it "historical" but "history making."
"The resurrection of Christ does not mean a possibility within the world and its history, but a new possibility altogether for the world, for existence, and for history. Only when the world can be understood as contingent creation out of the freedom of God...does the rising of Christ become intelligible as nova create [new creation]. ...it is necessary to expose the profound irrationality of the rational cosmos of the tech scientific world..."[6]
"The resurrection of Christ is without prattle in the history known to us. But it can be for that very reason regarded as a 'history making event' in the light of which all other history is illumined, called into question and transformed." [7]
Skeptics are too quick to argue that the resurrection is not historical fact. In modernity we have gained an anti-supernatural bias, and so the believer is forced to ask rhetorical questions like "did Jesus raise form the dead?" and then to answer them rhetorically. Moltmann changes the rules. Rather than ask if the resurrection is "historical" he merely argues that it doesn't have to be, it is history making. We change the rules of the debate because predicated upon the preaching of the resurrection is one of the most profound developments of world history; the growth of the Christian faith which has shaped the entire Western tradition. We view the Resurrection of Christ as history making because the belief in it did change history, the doctrine of it has made history, and belief today shapes the basis of all Christian doctrine. We put aside the hypocritical skepticism of naturalistic circular arguments and allow ourselves to accept the verdict of a history that has been made by faith in the event, in light of the fact that there is enough there to base faith upon. (see Jurgen Moltmann, The Crucified God, 1968).
The doctrine furnishes the basis for hope, when grasped in faith, that offers a much more profound answer to any of questions about life and death than any form of skepticism or pride in confusion ever could. Rather than merely declare a rules change, I will argue that this rules change is warranted based upon the evidence. In other words, not that the resurrection can be "proven" in the same sense that any other aspect of historical research can be proven, but that the resurrection evidence is credible enough that one can feel confident in asserting its truth as a tenet of faith. The actual case can never be proven, or disproved, but the evidence allows one to believe with impunity.
In keeping with my policy of enlightening the reader about my sources, I must point out that I do lean heavily upon two major evangelical sources here: F.F. Bruce, and William Lane Craig. Bruce is, however, one of the most highly respected Evangelical scholars, even among the liberal camp, and Craig is renown as a highly credible and effective apologist. The other sources such as D. E. H. Whiteley, Stephen Neil, Gaalyah Cornfeld, and Luke Timothy Johnson are basically liberal or moderate.A few major liberal theologians, such as Moltmann and Wolfhart Pannenberg have defended faith in the resurrection.
Historical Verdict Reversed
As William Lane Craig puts it:
The real case for skepticism of the resurrection of Christ was actually developed by 19th century liberal theology, and though they don't know it, the objections of most Internet skeptics today are echoes of those arguments. But in the postwar era even major liberal theologians began to defend the resurrection. Ernst Kasemann, student of Bultmann, at Marburg in 1953 argued that Bultmann's skepticism toward the historical Jesus was biased and Kasemann re-opened a new Quest for the historical Jesus. The great modern liberal theologian Wolfheart Paennberg argued for the resurrection of Jesus. Hans Grass argued that the resurrection cannot be dismissed as mere myth, and Hans Freiherr von Campenhausen defended the historical credibility of Jesus empty tomb....Equally startling is the declaration of one of the world's leading Jewish theologians Pinchas Lapid, that he is convinced on the basis of the evidence that Jesus of Nazareth rose from the dead. Lapide twits New Testament critics like Bultmann and Marxsen for their unjustified skepticism and concludes that he believes on the basis of the evidence that the God of Israel raised Jesus from the dead.
According to Jakob Kremer, "By far most exegetes hold firmly to the reliability of the biblical statements concerning the empty tomb" and he furnishes a list, to which his own name may be added, of twenty-eight prominent scholars in support. I can think of at least sixteen more names that he failed to mention. Thus, it is today widely recognized that the empty tomb of Jesus is a simple historical fact. As D. H. van Daalen has pointed out, "It is extremely difficult to object to the empty tomb on historical grounds; those who deny it do so on the basis of theological or philosophical assumptions." But assumptions may simply have to be changed in light of historical facts.[8]
Before the apologist can even posit the turth of the resurrection, his truth is refuted by the very nature of historical "facts" as modern thought construes them; supernatural events cannot be part of history. But Moltmann turns this around on the nature of modern thought by arguing that before modern thought can posit a naturalistic history, the content of history is already shaped by supernatural claims.
My answer summed up in the following points
(1) Gospels are historical artifact that ques us in to a historically validated set of readings that can be understood as even older artifacts.
(2) these artifacts testify to the early nature of the empty tomb as a belief of the community.
(3) community contained eye witnesses. so this fact would have been screened out if it as false.
(4) It was spread about from an early time thus we can infer form it that the eye witnesses to the situation approved.
(5)not proof but it is a good reason to assume it's valid as a belief.It has historical verisimilitude.
The standard I set my arguments:The Resurrection was a history making event. Whatever truly happened, the actual events which are make by the claims of witnesses and faith in the veracity of those witnesses, the upshot of it all is that the historical probabilities suggest the likelihood of an event, and that event shaped the nature of history itself. The faith claims cannot be historical claims, but they don't have to be. The faith itself is justified, it cannot be ruled out by history, but instead lies at the base of modern history in some form. We can suggest throughout the strength of the evidence that those actual events were the very events attested to in the Gospels. We cannot prove this claim with absolute certainty, but the warrant provided by the evidence itself is strong enough to make the historical nature of the religious hope valid. Some religious hopes are just ruled out by the facts. For example, the idea that the Native Americans are part of the 10 lost tribes of Israel; this can be dispelled by genetics as well as dentistry. The Resurrection, on the other hand, can be accepted as likely Given the suspension of ideological objections of Naturalism.
Born: April 8, 1926 (age 92 years), Hamburg, Germany
Re-read the Theologians response above. Joe Hinman gave you some examples. Remember that symbolism was VERY important to pre-literate and pre-scientific, superstitious people. WHICH is one reason the Catholic Church built such magnificent Cathedrals, all loaded with symbolism, everywhere you looked. Also what father wouldn't "save as in resurrect" his son if he could do so? Why does God have to have a "good reason" for doing something? Because he is a rational being? Based again on whose standards.
2 comments:
I am glad my post spawned a thought in you. That is why I comment on blogs like the Patheos website. I don't expect everyone to agree with me BUT I do hope to get respectful comments which often doesn't occur with some posters on that site!
You answered my comment with a statement that symbolism is still very important. AND I agree. I am not sure if it comes from our human need to find meaning in things so we often apply a "symbolic" message/meaning to events that happen to us. Think about some of the comments made after natural disasters, or about the election of Trump. The event symbolizes God's intent.
Though I think we humans don't understand concepts of randomness and chance and might give credit for something as in give credit to God where such credit isn't due or deserved!
I am glad my post spawned a thought in you. That is why I comment on blogs like the Patheos website. I don't expect everyone to agree with me BUT I do hope to get respectful comments which often doesn't occur with some posters on that site!
I like that attitude, and I'm honored to have your posts here you are always welcome,
You answered my comment with a statement that symbolism is still very important. AND I agree. I am not sure if it comes from our human need to find meaning in things so we often apply a "symbolic" message/meaning to events that happen to us. Think about some of the comments made after natural disasters, or about the election of Trump. The event symbolizes God's intent.
Good question, But we have to accept some level of truth finding at some point if we take science seriously, but there is no doubt the need to impose patterns does all the way down.When I was in a coma by brain was searching to find meaning in what was happening to me by interjecting messages into the delusions I was having,
Though I think we humans don't understand concepts of randomness and chance and might give credit for something as in give credit to God where such credit isn't due or deserved!
interesting poimt.
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