Sunday, January 14, 2018

Is belief in God magical thinking?

The bogus atheist social sciences section. This article is a sample of what's there. I have many articles against studies like this: IQ and faith (are Christians stupid and atheists are smart?) and the many, many inflationary claims of atheism on the rise that are constantly cranked out. I've proven that the people behind the IQ studies have avowed racist notions (Nyberg and co). I have spent years answering these kinds of things, the atheists have a vast array of them, all bogus, like the one about Christians are more likely to go to prison. Apologists need to be making use of these. Read them, spread them about. put up links. go to navigation, the stand alone pages top of this page and click on social science.

On Huff post there is an article by Matthew Hutson, author of The Seven Laws of Magical Thinking. The article is called "All Paths Lead to Magical Thinking." (Posted: 09/19/2013 8:32 pm).

In recent years, psychologists have come to understand religion and paranormal belief as resulting, in most people, from simple errors in reasoning. You believe in God or astrology or a purpose in life because you apply ideas about people -- that they have thoughts and intentions -- to the natural world. Some display this tendency more than others, but it's there in everyone, even atheistic heathens like me. What has not been clarified is exactly how the various cognitive biases interact to produce specific ideas about the supernatural -- until now.

He presents a tour de force in the form of a bunch of studies that supposedly prove that religious belief is magical thinking. "In the November 2013 issue of Cognition, Aiyana Willard and Ara Norenzayan of the University of British Columbia report on the relative influence of three cognitive tendencies on three types of supernatural belief, as well as the role of cultural influence." This study supposedly shows that "cognitive biases explain religious belief."
 several studies show that people who think more intuitively are also more susceptible to magical thinking. One intuition that's been proposed as a foundation for religious thought is Cartesian mind-body dualism, the idea that a mind can exist independently of a body. (See chapter 5 of my book The 7 Laws of Magical Thinking, "The Soul Lives On.") This proposition allows for souls, ghosts, spirits, and gods, all made of disembodied mind-stuff. Explanations for dualism include belief in free will and the mutual inhibition of brain areas responsible for pondering feelings and physics.
Of cousre that doesn't say that any of these studies show that religious belief is magical thinking. Instead they present a possibility based upon the notion that more intuitive people are susceptible   to magical thinking. So that says "if you are not careful you  might do some magical thinking." Nor is there a link provided between being more intuitive and religious belief. Although I would not doubt that believers are more intuitive, but the lack of prevision of that link is telling.

This brings up a bait and switch that the Aiyana and Norenzayan study is pulling off. They discuss their methodology:

We used a path model to assess the extent to which several interacting cognitive tendencies, namely mentalizing, mind body dualism, teleological thinking, and anthropomorphism, as well as cultural exposure to religion, predict belief in God, paranormal beliefs and belief in life’s purpose. Our model, based on two independent samples (N = 492 and N = 920) found that the previously known relationship between mentalizing and belief is mediated by individual differences in dualism, and to a lesser extent by teleological thinking. Anthropomorphism was unrelated to religious belief, but was related to paranormal belief. Cultural exposure to religion (mostly Christianity) was negatively related to anthropomorphism, and was unrelated to any of the other cognitive tendencies. These patterns were robust for both men and women, and across at least two ethnic identifications. The data were most consistent with a path model suggesting that mentalizing comes first, which leads to dualism and teleology, which in turn lead to religious, paranormal, and life’s-purpose beliefs. Alternative theoretical models were tested but did not find empirical support.
Notice that anthropomorphism is not linked to religoius beilef but they are going to use it anyway because it's involved in belief. In fact all of these things are descriptions of various overlapping historical artifacts form religious thought because it goes back so far in human history. Most of them have not been disproved, none of them are magical thinking. What's the link bewteen teleology and magical thinking? Teleology means an end goal,  so religious thinking is teleological if and only if it assumes there's a creator who has a plan that's being fulfilled. Why is that in itself magical thinking? It's just logical if there is a creator. Has teleological thinking been proved to always be wrong? No, of course not and it's logical if there is a creator. So actually they are just begging the question. They are assuming there can't be a creator so therefore anything connected with belief must also be connected with magical thinking. This probably goes back to the biases of anti-clerical prejudice, that religion is superstition. So they start with the assumption religious beilef must be magical thinking because it's superstition, thus they just look for typical aspects of religious thought (many of which are connected to ancinet religious texts) and assume it's all magical thinking. No psychological link is provided that proves that teleological thinking is magical thinking.

When he says "several studies" he links back to his own website for the book 7 Laws of Magical Thinking (he uses the number 7 rather than writing "seven" seems infantile). So his article is just a rehash of his website. What are these studies what do they really show? Those are the ones that supposedly show that intuitive thinkers are apt to be suckers for magical thinking if they are not careful, but does it access the percentage of the time that they are not careful? Can't we still check the results by our own logic and empirical data?

One such satment in disclosing these "several studies:"

Psychologists who study the origins of religion say belief in God relies on several intuitions, including a teleological bias (the assumption that certain objects or event were designed intentionally) and Cartesian dualism (the belief that mind can exist independently of the body). So to become an atheist one must second-guess these automatic ways of thinking. And recently a number of studies have supported the idea that belief in God is influenced by cognitive style–how much of a second-guesser you are.
Why is teleology "intuitive" any more than it is logical? If God is what you believe in then is it not logical to assume God has a purpose in crating? it's not prove that necessarily intuitive. Not that they link intuitive thinking with magical thinking. His comment about Cartsteian thinking is ironic since major aspects of atheist thinking is also based upon Cartesian thinking. E.O. Wilson's world view is largley Cartesian and he produced evolutionary psychology which is important to atheist thinking.

One such  study: paper published last year in the Journal of Experimental Psychology: General by Amitai Shenhav studuents took cognitive reflection test and answered questions.Pleasevnote they used this testvin a way for which it was not intended,Look at the actual original study where the Cognitive reflection Test wasfirst used. Here's what it says thye purpose is:
“Cognitive Reflection Test” (CRT) as a simple measure of one type of cognitive ability. I will show that CRT scores are predictive of the types of choices that feature prominently in tests of decision-making theories, like expected utility theory and prospect theory. Indeed, the relation is sometimes so strong that the preferences themselves effectively function as expressions of cognitive ability—an empirical fact begging for a theoretical explanation. After introducing the CRT, I examine its relations with two important decisionmaking characteristics: time preference and risk preference. The CRT is then compared with other measures of cognitive ability or cognitive “style,” including the Wonderlic Personnel Test (WPT), the Need For Cognition scale (NFC) and selfreported SAT and ACT scores. The CRT exhibits considerable difference between men and women, and I discuss how this relates to sex differences in time and risk preferences. The final section discusses the interpretation of correlations between cognitive abilities and decision-making characteristics.[1]
This has to do with risk taking. It doesn't even say it meausres intative thinking but "different kinds of cognition." The difference is in levels of risk taking not intuition.

This is so telling he says "The number of intuitive (incorrect) responses they gave on the CRT was correlated with their belief in God and immortal souls," so in other words intuitive means "wrong." How could one possibly study the validity of intuitive thinking when one defines it as "wrong form the outset? Moreover, they are judging it wrong because it's connected to God, is that not also what makes it "intuitive?" They are just running around in circles demanding that what they believe has to be true and using their biases as the basis for proof. When we look at the actual tests on the study (see link above) we find that the real way they administer it (reported badly by Hustson) was to compare math answers arrived at intuitively with the persons individual belief in God. They compared believers answers to non believers answers. We are infer that the believers missed more. Actually that would mean that intuitive thinking does not correlate to belief in God and that the better intuitive thinking is done by non believers. Why? Because they got more math problems right by intuitive means. That would destroy their link from intuitive thinking to magical thinking. Wouldn't it also matter what one used intuitive sense for? Perhaps intuitive sense is better at God finding than at mathematics. What if that's what it was made for? Massimp Pigliucci sights research and argues that intuition is domaion specific. Some things lend themselves to it and some don't. [2] 
Moreover, both studies demonstrated that intuitive CRT responses predicted the degree to which individuals reported having strengthened their belief in God since childhood, but not their familial religiosity during childhood, suggesting a causal relationship between cognitive style and change in belief over time. Study 3 revealed such a causal relationship over the short term: Experimentally inducing a mindset that favors intuition over reflection increases self-reported belief in God. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2012 APA, all rights reserved)[3]
So in other words because they have some evidence that initiative thinking is part of the stronger religious belief that means that religious belief is produced by intuitive thinking which is mostly wrong and is magical thinking. There are a number of things wrong with that methodology. That's not the same as proving that religion itself is derived from intuitive thinking. That is not even investigating the logic that goes into it. Nor does it investigate the right answers in one's personal life that lead to believe, they don't even offer a theological measuring devices for such answers. Putting up a bunch of math problems is not valid. People don't arrive at belief by just saying "I sense that God is really there." There is a sense of God's presence that people  have and they are totally confusing that sense with 'intuitive' thinking,' they don't have it they don't know how it feels or works so they assume it's "intuitive." Moreover, the term "intuitive" can refer to different things. There's no link that the kind of intuitive thinking (guessing) about the math is the same kind done by religious thinkers.


 There's an article in N.Y. Times that illustrates scientific work depending upon and being  conformed by intuitive thinking. The article is a chapter form a book by Philip Lieberman, Eve Spoke, Human Language and Human Evolution.[4]  The book is based upon scholarly work.

Over the past thirty years my colleagues and I have studied monkeys, chimpanzees, infants, children, normal adults, dyslexic adults, elderly people, and patients suffering from Parkinson's disease and other types of brain damage. We have also examined the skulls of our fossil ancestors, comparing them with those of newborn infants and apes. The focus of these studies has been the puzzle surrounding human evolution. Why are we so different from other animals, although we are at the same time so similar?...In some deep, unconscious way we "know" that dogs, cats, chimpanzees, and other intelligent animals would be human if they could only talk. Intuitively we know that talking = thinking = being human. The studies discussed below show that this intuition is correct.
 This may upset young earth creationists, which I don't  mind doing, but it doesn't disrupt my Christian faith because I don't see evolution as a disruption. Nor does it disprove the existence of the soul because that depends upon answering the question "why is it we did evolve to talk and other animals did not? There are two points that refute Hutson's ideas: (1) not only does religious belief depend upon intuitive thinking of a kind (at certain points) but so does scinece as well. (2) this scientist thinks that the intuitive thinking is proved correct by the scinece. So intuitive thinking is not always wrong. Some studies backing this up have shown that the correct results of intuitive thinking, while not better than other forms of knowing, are not worse.[5]

 U.S. Navy reserach has yielded so much scientific data backing the notion that there is an intuitive sense that aids troops in battle that they started a program to teach troops how to be more intuitive.

 Research in human pattern recognition and decision-making suggest that there is a "sixth sense" through which humans can detect and act on unique patterns without consciously and intentionally analyzing them. Evidence is accumulating that this capability, known as intuition or intuitive decision making, enables the rapid detection of patterns in ambiguous, uncertain and time restricted information contexts, that it informs the decision making process and, most importantly, that it may not require domain expertise to be effective. These properties make intuition a strong candidate for further exploration as the basis for developing a new set of decision support training technologies.[6]
 Ivy Estabrook, program manager at the office of Naval Resarch, says, "There is a growing body of anecdotal evidence, combined with solid research efforts, that suggests intuition is a critical aspect of how we humans interact with our environment and how, ultimately, we make many of our decisions."[7]

 Published in Popular source Sarah Moore form Alberta School of Business and colleagues from Duke and Cornell have produced research that proves that the first choice one makes is often the right choice. [8] That certainly implies an intuitive choice. While Trisha Greenhalgh discusses research that shows that intution is a valuable aid in medical diagnosis and that it improves with critical thinking about the process.

Intuition is not unscientific. It is a highly creative process, fundamental to hypothesis generation in science. The experienced practitioner should generate and follow clinical hunches as well as (not instead of applying the deductive principles of evidence-based medicine. The educational research literature suggests that we can improve our intuitive powers through systematic critical reflection about intuitive judgements--for example, through creative writing and dialogue with professional colleagues. It is time to revive and celebrate clinical storytelling as a method for professional education and development.[9]
 Not only is it not unscientific, not only can it assist in medical care, but it there's a large body of literature that shows it can be improved. How can it be improved (meaning the answers are right) if it's no good and it never works and it's just magical thinking?


Summary 

(1) None of the studies demonstrate a real link between intuitive thinking and religious belief. They make an unsupported assertion that teleology and other quasi religious ideas are intuitive thinking. The closest thing to a link is one study that shows that believe was strengthened apart form family tie, but that does NOT rule out logic, empirical data, discussions with friends and individual thought.

(2) The studies that claim to link religious belief with magical thinking are doing a bait and switch whereby the substitute intuitive thinking. They don't bother to consider the venue or the domain but merely assume that if intuitive thinking is wrong for math then it must be wrong for all things. They assume intuitive = magical, probably because they think belief in God is magic or supernatural is magic. Then they assert that since intuitive thinking doesn't work in one domain it work in any domain. Since that tag that as religious thinking then religious thinking is wrong. They actually prove nothing at accept that they are biased against religion.

(3) A vast body of scientific research disproves the idea that intuition is always wrong and doesn't work. It's not only backed by science it's part of science. I give examples of scientific work that is based upon intuitive thinking. It's not more special and unique to religious thought than is logic. Nor is it always wrong. The scientific reserach shows it has it's place where it's right, that including not only some scientific work but also medicine.


sources


[1] Shane Frederick, "Cognative Reflection And Decision making," Journal of Economic Perspectives—Volume 19, Number 4—(Fall 2005)—Pages 25–42 prfhttp://cbdr.cmu.edu/seminar/Frederick.pdf accessed 11/3/15 
[2]Massimo Pigliucci, Answers for Aristotle: How Science and Philosophy Can Lead Us to A More Meaningful Life , New York: Basic books, 2012.

Massimo Pigliucci (Italian pronunciation: [ˈmassimo piʎˈʎuttʃi]; born January 16, 1964) is the chair of the Department of Philosophy at CUNY-Lehman College.[1] He is also the editor in chief for the journal Philosophy & Theory in Biology.[2] He is an outspoken critic of creationism and advocate of science education.

[3] Shenhav, Amitai; Rand, David G.; Greene, Joshua D. "Divine intuition: Cognitive style influences belief in God." abstract on line: Journal of Experimental Psychology:General, Vol 141(3), (Aug 2012), 423-428 abstract on Apa Psychnethttp://psycnet.apa.org/journals/xge/141/3/423/  accessed 10/2/13.
[4] Philip Lieberman, "The Mice Talked at Midnight," except from Eve Spoke: Human Language and Human Evolution, New York: W.W. Norton, published in New York Times, on line http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/l/lieberman-eve.html  accessed 10/2/13
[5]AJ Giannini, ME Barringer, MC Giannini, RH Loiselle. Lack of relationship between handedness and intuitive and intellectual (rationalistic) modes of information processing. Journal of General Psychology. 111:31-37 1984.
[6] Office of naval research Basic Research Challenge: Enhancing intuitive deicsion making.
Solicitation Number: 12-SN-0007
Agency: Department of the Navy
Office: Office of Naval Research
Location: ONR
  https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&tab=core&id=be0a1ab47e05fe0f9c2bd0ffd5e40b1a&_cview=1 
 accessed 10/2/13.
[7] Ivy Estabrook, uoted in Channing Joseph, "U.S. Program to Study How Troops Use Intuition," New York Times, Wednesday (Oct 2, 2013) story filed March 27, 2012, 5:09 pm on line
 http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/27/navy-program-to-study-how-troops-use-intuition/?_r=0
 accessed 10/2/13.
[8]Leon Watson ."why we are right to trust out gut intincts:Scientists discover First Decision is the Right One." Mail online updated 30 (August 2011)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2031848/Why-right-trust-gut-instincts-Scientists-discover-decision-IS-right-one.html accessed 10/2/13
[9]Trisha Greenhalgh, "Intution and Evidence--Uneasy Bedfellows?" BJGP:British Journal of General Practice. 52, (478) May (2002) 395-400. On line article http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1314297/  accessed 10/2/13

22 comments:

im-skeptical said...

Wow. Your defensive response mechanism (against challenged beliefs) has kicked in big time. You really shouldn't get your panties in a bunch over things you don't understand.

'Intuitive' does NOT mean wrong. What you fail to understand about the CRT is that it was specially designed (by people who know what they're doing) to distinguish intuitive thinking from more deliberative thinking. There is no implication that all kinds of intuitive thinking must be incorrect. And no real reason for you to be so upset by these studies. You would be better off trying to understand the nature of your own thinking processes in light of this information.

Joe Hinman said...

se you don't shit from shinola. Initiative doesn't mean wrong per er but in their thinning it is wrong. you Wiktionary miss the point how they link it to magical thinking. They do about five links each one is a bait and switch,

back to your old tricks of not reading the artichoke,


"What you fail to understand about the CRT is that it was specially designed (by people who know what they're doing) to distinguish intuitive thinking from more deliberative thinking."

you totally missing the point: the test was not deigned for the purpose to whih it is put,

Joe Hinman said...

One such study: paper published last year in the Journal of Experimental Psychology: General by Amitai Shenhav studuents took cognitive reflection test and answered questions.Pleasevnote they used this testvin a way for which it was not intended,Look at the actual original study where the Cognitive reflection Test wasfirst used. Here's what it says thye purpose is:
--QUOTE--
“Cognitive Reflection Test” (CRT) as a simple measure of one type of cognitive ability. I will show that CRT scores are predictive of the types of choices that feature prominently in tests of decision-making theories, like expected utility theory and prospect theory. Indeed, the relation is sometimes so strong that the preferences themselves effectively function as expressions of cognitive ability—an empirical fact begging for a theoretical explanation. After introducing the CRT, I examine its relations with two important decisionmaking characteristics: time preference and risk preference. The CRT is then compared with other measures of cognitive ability or cognitive “style,” including the Wonderlic Personnel Test (WPT), the Need For Cognition scale (NFC) and selfreported SAT and ACT scores. The CRT exhibits considerable difference between men and women, and I discuss how this relates to sex differences in time and risk preferences. The final section discusses the interpretation of correlations between cognitive abilities and decision-making characteristics.[1]
--CLOSE Quote

Joe Hinman said...

This has to do with risk taking. It doesn't even say it meausres intative thinking but "different kinds of cognition." The difference is in levels of risk taking not intuition.

foot notes
(1) None of the studies demonstrate a real link between intuitive thinking and religious belief. They make an unsupported assertion that teleology and other quasi religious ideas are intuitive thinking. The closest thing to a link is one study that shows that believe was strengthened apart form family tie, but that does rule out logic, empirical data, discussions with friends and individual thought.

(2) The studies that claim to link religious belief with magical thinking are doing a bait and switch whereby the substitute intuitive thinking. They don't bother to consider the venue or the domain but merely assume that if intuitive thinking is wrong for math then it must be wrong for all things. They assume intuitive = magical, probably because they think belief in God is magic or supernatural is magic. Then they assert that since intuitive thinking doesn't work in one domain it work in any domain. Since that tag that as religious thinking then religious thinking is wrong. They actually prove nothing at accept that they are biased against religion.

This is so telling he says "The number of intuitive (incorrect) responses they gave on the CRT was correlated with their belief in God and immortal souls," so in other words intuitive means "wrong." How could one possibly study the validity of intuitive thinking when one defines it as "wrong form the outset? Moreover, they are judging it wrong because it's connected to God, is that not also what makes it "intuitive?" They are just running around in circles demanding that what they believe has to be true and using their biases as the basis for proof. When we look at the actual tests on the study (see link above) we find that the real way they administer it (reported badly by Hustson) was to compare math answers arrived at intuitively with the persons individual belief in God. They compared believers answers to non believers answers. We are infer that the believers missed more. Actually that would mean that intuitive thinking does not correlate to belief in God and that the better intuitive thinking is done by non believers. Why? Because they got more math problems right by intuitive means. That would destroy their link from intuitive thinking to magical thinking. Wouldn't it also matter what one used intuitive sense for? Perhaps intuitive sense is better at God finding than at mathematics. What if that's what it was made for? Massimp Pigliucci sights research and argues that intuition is domaion specific. Some things lend themselves to it and some don't. [2]

im-skeptical said...

Joe, I did read the "artichoke". You said:

so in other words intuitive means "wrong."

No, it doesn't. You don't understand the nature of the test, or the implications they make from it. You are reacting viscerally.

Joe Hinman said...

proving that Skeie can;t understand what he reads in two easy lessons, The first quote is from the Huff Aristotle where the author demonstrates the wrong nature of religious thinling:



"in recent years, psychologists have come to understand religion and paranormal belief as resulting, in most people, from simple errors in reasoning. You believe in God or astrology or a purpose in life because you apply ideas about people -- that they have thoughts and intentions -- to the natural world. Some display this tendency more than others, but it's there in everyone, even atheistic heathens like me. What has not been clarified is exactly how the various cognitive biases interact to produce specific ideas about the supernatural -- until now."

that says religious thinking is a mistake in reasoning, so if initiative thinning is basic to religious thinking it would have to be wrong or a mistake in reasoning or to enable mistakes in reasoning,

this is me setting up the blog quote:
"Willard and Ara Norenzayan of the University of British Columbia report on the relative influence of three cognitive tendencies on three types of supernatural belief, as well as the role of cultural influence." This study supposedly shows that "cognitive biases explain religious belief."


quoting Willard and Ara Norenzayan:

several studies show that people who think more intuitively are also more susceptible to magical thinking.


that says initiative thinking is a link to magical thinking which would have to make it wrong, my short hand is to understand it as wrong as clearly the author does,

mreof the quotefrom W and N:

"One intuition that's been proposed as a foundation for religious thought is Cartesian mind-body dualism, the idea that a mind can exist independently of a body. (See chapter 5 of my book The 7 Laws of Magical Thinking, "The Soul Lives On.") This proposition allows for souls, ghosts, spirits, and gods, all made of disembodied mind-stuff. Explanations for dualism include belief in free will and the mutual inhibition of brain areas responsible for pondering feelings and physics.


That clear links intuitive thinking to magical thinking via religious ideas, Then the whole point of the CRT is that those who guess the answer to math problems intuitively are wrong more often than those using logic or other methods,

again making intuitive answers wrong,

W and N says essentially that initiative thinking leads to religious thinking and to become an atheist one must overcome this kind of inking:

"Psychologists who study the origins of religion say belief in God relies on several intuitions, including a teleological bias (the assumption that certain objects or event were designed intentionally) and Cartesian dualism (the belief that mind can exist independently of the body). So to become an atheist one must second-guess these automatic ways of thinking. And recently a number of studies have supported the idea that belief in God is influenced by cognitive style–how much of a second-guesser you are."

"belief in God relies on several intuitions" wood that not have to make intuaiton wrong if belief in God is wrong?


me explainimg the Shane Frederick article


"This is so telling he says "The number of intuitive (incorrect) responses they gave on the CRT was correlated with their belief in God and immortal souls," so in other words intuitive means "wrong."

read the article you will see I understand it correctly



Shane Frederick, "Cognative Reflection And Decision making," Journal of Economic Perspectives—Volume 19, Number 4—(Fall 2005)—Pages 25–42 prfhttp://cbdr.cmu.edu/seminar/Frederick.pdf accessed 11/3/15
[2]Massimo Pigliucci, Answers for Aristotle: How Science and Philosophy Can Lead Us to A More Meaningful Life , New York: Basic books, 2012.

Joe Hinman said...

Shenhav, Amitai; Rand, David G.; Greene, Joshua D. "Divine intuition: Cognitive style influences belief in God." abstract on line: Journal of Experimental Psychology:General, Vol 141(3), (Aug 2012), 423-428 abstract on Apa Psychnethttp://psycnet.apa.org/journals/xge/141/3/423/ accessed 10/2/13.


"Moreover, both studies demonstrated that intuitive CRT responses predicted the degree to which individuals reported having strengthened their belief in God since childhood, but not their familial religiosity during childhood, suggesting a causal relationship between cognitive style and change in belief over time. Study 3 revealed such a causal relationship over the short term: Experimentally inducing a mindset that favors intuition over reflection increases self-reported belief in God. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2012 APA, all rights reserved)

im-skeptical said...

Joe,

I am not disputing what these studies say. I am disputing your interpretation of how the CRT us used in particular, and how you understand that in the broader context. You claimed that it was being mis-used, because you don't understand how it was designed and how it works. You think that these scientists then were associating intuitive thinking with incorrect thinking, and you presented additional information to dispute that. But that's not what they are saying or implying. And because of your misunderstanding, you then cast the whole enterprise under a cloud of negativity and mistrust, which you feel compelled to dispute.

All they did was establish a correlation (without establishing causation) between religious thinking intuitive thinking, with no negative implication as to whether it is correct. They understand perfectly well that we all rely on intuitive thinking, and that it is often quite correct. You don't seem to get that, and you are offended by the way the test is designed. I'm saying you should take a chill pill.

Joe Hinman said...

I am not disputing what these studies say. I am disputing your interpretation of how the CRT us used in particular, and how you understand that in the broader context. You claimed that it was being mis-used, because you don't understand how it was designed and how it works. You think that these scientists then were associating intuitive thinking with incorrect thinking, and you presented additional information to dispute that. But that's not what they are saying or implying. And because of your misunderstanding, you then cast the whole enterprise under a cloud of negativity and mistrust, which you feel compelled to dispute.

I do understand what it was designed to do. I have no problem with it in it's original application,I did research it, I read a lot of specific material about the test itself. It's only the way W and N are using it to which I object. Some of the material I researched is in the bib.

All they did was establish a correlation (without establishing causation) between religious thinking intuitive thinking, with no negative implication as to whether it is correct. They understand perfectly well that we all rely on intuitive thinking, and that it is often quite correct. You don't seem to get that, and you are offended by the way the test is designed. I'm saying you should take a chill pill.


no that is not all they did, you did not follow my article closely,

im-skeptical said...

you did not follow my article closely
- I read it, and realized that you don't understand how the CRT works, and even after my attempts to explain this to you, you are sticking to your guns, and claiming I'm the one who doesn't understand. This is the same old tactic that you always use whenever I point out your lack of scientific understanding. But you aren't fooling anybody who actually does understand it.

Joe Hinman said...

back up claim genius, I put up a lot of passages from my Clarice to illustrate how how wrong your point is, you have not refereed to any of it, did you even read it? Did you understand it? no ,you have no idea.

stop whining and backup your bull shit. Quote the passage where I show I don't understand it.

im-skeptical said...

Quote the passage where I show I don't understand it.

- I already did.

so in other words intuitive means "wrong."

This shows that you don't know how what they're doing. Yes, it's true that a wrong answer in this particular test indicates an intuitive response. That's the way the test was designed. It doesn't mean that intuitive thinking is wrong in a broader sense. That's only your interpretation, because you don't understand their methodology.

Joe Hinman said...

genius! that's exactly what I meant, read it again! simpleton!

Joe Hinman said...

when I made that parenthetical insert it was Willard and Nyrizen's use of the test I was describing.

im-skeptical said...

Which you clearly don't understand.

im-skeptical said...

This is so telling he says "The number of intuitive (incorrect) responses they gave on the CRT was correlated with their belief in God and immortal souls," so in other words intuitive means "wrong." How could one possibly study the validity of intuitive thinking when one defines it as "wrong form the outset? Moreover, they are judging it wrong because it's connected to God, is that not also what makes it "intuitive?"

WRONG! You don't understand the test or what they are doing with it. They are NOT saying intuitive means "wrong". They do NOT define it as "wrong form the outset". That's your own idiotic interpretation, and it's way off base. I don't know how to explain this to you. I've tried, and you just don't listen.

Joe Hinman said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Joe Hinman said...

WRONG! You don't understand the test or what they are doing with it. They are NOT saying intuitive means "wrong". They do NOT define it as "wrong form the outset". That's your own idiotic interpretation, and it's way off base. I don't know how to explain this to you. I've tried, and you just don't listen.


clearly they do, they establish that the intuitive thinkers get math wrong more often so they assert that ideas correlated with intuition are more often wrong,
thus they assert religious thinning is wrong because they assert the correlation with intuitive thinking,

that;s the whole point of their article

Joe Hinman said...

you said:

This shows that you don't know how what they're doing. Yes, it's true that a wrong answer in this particular test indicates an intuitive response. That's the way the test was designed. It doesn't mean that intuitive thinking is wrong in a broader sense. That's only your interpretation, because you don't understand their methodology.

that's true for the original users but then W and N extrapolate to imply that intuitive is the basis of magical thinking

Joe Hinman said...

come o someone out there must have my article which of us understands the issue?

Joe Hinman said...

(1) correlate intuitive thinking with magical thinking

quote Willard and Noreanzyon: "several studies show that people who think more intuitively are also more susceptible to magical thinking"

(that in itself meas's it's wrpg. so that proves my point intuative = wrong because magical thinking's is wrong (for W and N not for the original CRT)

in fact your BS was first aimed at me supposedly not understanding the distinction between the Original purpose of CRT and W/N;s use of it,once got that fixed then you began arguig as tough it was always about my misunderstanding W/N/s scoring,


(2) this statement proves that I was aware of the original distinction in the article itself,


"One such study: paper published last year in the Journal of Experimental Psychology: General by Amitai Shenhav studuents took cognitive reflection test and answered questions.Pleasevnote they used this testvin a way for which it was not intended,Look at the actual original study where the Cognitive reflection Test wasfirst used. Here's what it says thye purpose is:"

(3) you fucked up royally because it was W and N who said initiative is wrong I was quitting him,

"This is so telling he says (Note the quote marks)"The number of intuitive (incorrect) responses they gave on the CRT was correlated with their belief in God and immortal souls," so in other words intuitive means "wrong."

Joe Hinman said...

this topic is closed