new carm boards are oppostie of normal boards. the last post is at the top where the OP should be and the OP is at the very bottom where the new post should be. So when you see pages 1,2,3,4 the op is on 4 not on 1. The last post in on page 1.
I got into a thread arguing against Calvinists. I usually avoid becuase it's pointless (they don't listen and they are the elect so they don't care what you say). These guys were saying something damaging and anti-God I felt I had to take part. They were saying "God doesn't love everyone." Those who God has predestined to burn he hates. Of cousre those would be sinner so God hates sinners. They were such self religious idiots about it. I hate it when people come on that way. Such bullies and they worship an idea of God that amounts to nothing more than a big bully in the sky.
The guys loved to make big bold proclamations to the effect that they are men of God and if you disagree with them you must be full of satan.They quite love with weakness and Holiness with anger. God is angry at sin (which apparently just happens to coincide with all those disagree with their view point) and apparently anger is what they like about God.
The thing is I equate anger with loss of control. To me anger is a childish emotion that means one is losing it. I can't see God as red faced and hysterical. Now it's one thing to say God disapproves of sin, another to say God is angry or that God hates. I know the Bible says it, but I just think that in speaking to ancient desert barbarians who are always screwing up, always losing faith and wanting to go back to Egypt and all, it's not not enough to say "I have a theoretical predilection that God views that behavior with a certain disapprobation." No, with those those guys you have to say "God is Pissed!" Otherwise it just doesn't have the power and they wont listen.
Therefore I think it's a metaphor to say God hates sinners or God is angry or God has wrath. That doesn't make God any less Holy, it makes him more self controlled. I can see that there could be a form of perfect divine anger that would not be red faced and losing control, but then I'm sure we are talking about the same emotion. I would not make sense to say "God divine hates sinners, but not human hates them." I mean that has no meaning. So we have to understand it as metaphor for some extreme disapprobation but not one that is red faced and hysterical.
Another thing, what little I know about Hebrew has it that meaning in Hebrew is pictorial. So in other words, you want to emphasize strength you say "mighty right arm." You want to say this guy is way more strong tahn anyone else you pile on image upon another, "his mighty right arm is a rino horn." So you keep piling up images like that show he's not just really disapproving of this, but he's really really REALLY disapproving. A good way to do that would be to use strong words like "hate."
Now another point that has to be addressed, does this mean that love turns out to be a different emotion than human love? Yes! I sure hope so! Human love is a frail and fickle as human anger is out of control and hysterical. We are talking about different emotions really in the NT when Paul gives us the sermon on love (1 cor 13) he's talking about something the Greeks called "agape." He's not talking about the sort of love I feel for Ice cream or Joan Baez (in the 60s) or that I feel for the decade of the 60s (Nostalgic love) he's talking about clean pristine egalitarian "will to the good of the other."
So in assessing these divine attitudes toward sin and sinners we definitely have to figure we don't really know anything. It highlights the futility of "literal readings." Inerrency is not literalism anyway. I think a lot of people confuse those two.
One of these bold men of God dashed off this article by some clown who agrees with them (someone I have never heard of) with a dashing air such that I'm given to understand this a man who passes for "big guns" in their theological world.
Here is an article by John H. Gerstner. It can be found here. Let's see if Gerstner has enough exegetical training to convince these people...
“Repent or Perish” forces people to ponder seriously the popular slogan, “God hates the sin and loves the sinner.” Is a necessary repentance consistent with “God loves the sinner?” If God loves the sinner while he is alive, it is strange that God sends him to hell as soon as he dies. God loves the sinner to death? Loves him to everlasting torment?
That would be strange but not inexplicable, there is another option on it. the upshot of that could be that therefore God doesn't love them, the other option is that he doesn't send them to hell. Of cousre you can't be a good fundie without that and it would certainly put a crimp in one's superiority and electiness if that wasn't the case. One might also consider that a parent who obeyed the law and does what is right, even though ti hurts his guilty child, does not love his son less but understands the importance of law and equality under the law and the dictum that the guilty must pay. There's something profoundly simplistic about not being able to understand that.
There is something wrong here. Either God loves the sinner and will not send him into the furnace of His eternal wrath; or He sends him into His eternal wrath and does not love him. Either “you are going to hell unless” because God hates you, as you are. Or, God loves you and “you are going to hell unless” is false.
That is nothing more than a rehash of the same brittle logic exposed above. There need be nothing personal and it certainly doesn't need to involve hate in the principle that somethings are more important than loving a particular individual. God does not hate sinners, God is profoundly sorry that sinners suffer, but he loves holiness more. He's not going to call off the deal and make sin ok just becuase people he loves rebel and sin. On the other hand this guys seems to understand that hell is wrong and bad in itself and yet rather than banish hell he makes God into a hateful spiteful individual who uses his partial nature not to let the sinner off the hook becuase he has compassion but just hates him so he's not troubled by the loss. I find that an profoundly disturbing image and extremely emotionally retarded. I would could never bring myself to believe was that way. it would be incredibly ridiculous to have such a God.
What leads almost everyone to believe that God loves the sinner is that God does the sinner so much good. He bestows so many favors including letting him continue to live. How can God let the sinner live and give him so many blessings, unless He loves him? There is a kind of love between God and sinners. We call it the “love of benevolence.” That means the love of good will. Benevolens — willing well. Doing well. God can do well to the sinner without loving him with the other kind of love. “Complacent love,” a pleasure in, affection for, admiration of. It exists in perfection between the Father and the Son, “in whom I am well pleased”(Matt.3:17; Mk.1:11).
That is not answer, that makes God more retorted than ever. Because he can understand the nobles oblige benevolence but still not be moved enough by empathy or compassion to either cancel hell or muster up a bit of love for the sinner. Unless of course what they really mean by "God does not love the sinner" is that God doesn't allow himself to be destroyed by corny over sentimental feelings about something or to allow himself to cave in on the consequences he allows for the mistakes of those he loves. But why would anyone confuse that with not having actual love for people? O the answer is obvious because these guys don't have love,t hey understand love, they confuse it with weakness. They worship bullyism and they don't understand what love or compassion is. They think if you love you bend the rules and become a hypocrite because love is just weakness, either that or you quite loving. I would be truly curious to know what they think love is. So distorted and so warped is their understanding of love that here's what they teaches one that God will forgive:
God is perfectly displeased with the sinner. The sinner hates God, disobeys God, is ungrateful to God for all His favors, would kill God if he could. He is dead in trespasses and sins. (Eph.2:1) “The thoughts and intents of his heart are only evil continually.” (Gen.6:5) He is the slave of sin (John 8:34), the servant of the devil, (Eph.2:2).
God has no complacent love for the sinner at all. He has a perfect hatred of him, “I hate them with a perfect hatred.”(Ps. 139:22)
Why does God do so much good for those He perfectly hates and as soon as they die impenitent send them immediately to hell and never in all eternity does them one solitary favor more? It is to show His willingness to forgive the sinner if only he will repent. It shows the sincerity of God’s willingness to pardon the greatest sinner that, even while He hates him with a perfect hatred, He showers him with constant daily blessings.
That certainly would not lead me to conclude that God forgives. It would lead me to conclude that God is a betrayer. He gives you blessings until you cross some invisible line you can't understand because he blessed you when you were bad so you had no real reason to assume that he meant business then suddenly stops forever and will never do it again for seemingly no reason. Since this takes place after death how are they supposed to learn the lesson before it's too late?
As I mentioned in Chapter 1, there is no “problem of pain.” The only problem is the “problem of pleasure.”O there's a brilliant statement, no problem of pain as though the elect don't feel pain. If you feel pain in life then you aren't predestined. That's true that Calvin gave hints of who was in the elect those hints had to do with financial success. That's still idiotic becuase even financially well off people have pain and experience tragedy and hardship of some kind. To say that there is no problem of pain is just idiotic. It's begging the question but then it does make sense if believe God sends some people to damnation from before birth, no questions, nothing they can do about it, merely to prove that he's sovereign, he damn well should hate them. But I could not believe in a God who would do that. For me that's a major reason why I'm an Methodist.