Friday, February 08, 2008

Atonement and salvation:Dialouge with an Atheist

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metacrock View Post
I said the history of it not the mythology.
You cannot prove the resurrection of Jesus with any historical accuracy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metacrock View Post
Romans
And why would I accept Paul's idea that we're in rebellion?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metacrock View Post
of course you return it. if you don't accept the solidarity of someone there is no solidarity. God is already working with us. like it says in Acs 17-21 he put people where they live on the earth so they would seeking him and find him. Like Paul told the Greeks "you already worship God as the 'unknown God" but what you worship as unknown I will make known to you."
You're comment from a couple of posts earlier is this thread was that solidarity provided a basis for forgiveness. It appears to me (and please correct me if I'm wrong), that you're saying that in order to accept the symbol of solidarity, that we need to admit that we're in rebellion and that we need forgiveness.

What I don't see is why you need to make that connection. Consider the following example. I can say to you that a particular attack against your character is wrong and that the person who made it was being spiteful and intolerant. At this point, I have now expressed solidarity with you, in that we could bond together against this person.

You seem to be suggesting that, at this point, you would need to ask for my forgiveness in order to accept my offer of solidarity. As opposed to just saying 'thanks' and moving forward.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metacrock View Post
where?
It was when I asked "where does it say that we're sinning".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metacrock View Post
there is no absence of God.
While you have argued for the lack of absence of a ground of being, you have never convinced me that there is a connection between GOB and the Christian version of God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metacrock View Post
solidarity is necessary for salvation. you can't have a covenant without it. The whole concept of covenant is essentially based upon a solidarity between the two parties.
Again, why the salvation. Solidarity is, at a minimum, an unspoken covenant, yes. But there is no reason for salvation to be necessary.

All of this conversation seems to boil down to the idea of sin. Why is it that you believe that we need salvation? Pointing to Romans isn't enough, because at best that is saying that Paul is right without providing any foundation for that opinion.



answer part 1:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Metacrock View Post
I said the history of it not the mythology.


You cannot prove the resurrection of Jesus with any historical accuracy.
Yea that's ture. but I don't have to I said the history not the mythology. Resurrection is a tenet of faith, not history. I can prove the evidence warrants belief.



Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metacrock View Post
Romans

And why would I accept Paul's idea that we're in rebellion?

I don't know. you didn't ask me that. you ask me for a place where it says that.


Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metacrock View Post
of course you return it. if you don't accept the solidarity of someone there is no solidarity. God is already working with us. like it says in Acs 17-21 he put people where they live on the earth so they would seeking him and find him. Like Paul told the Greeks "you already worship God as the 'unknown God" but what you worship as unknown I will make known to you."


You're comment from a couple of posts earlier is this thread was that solidarity provided a basis for forgiveness. It appears to me (and please correct me if I'm wrong), that you're saying that in order to accept the symbol of solidarity, that we need to admit that we're in rebellion and that we need forgiveness.

no that's that's back asword. we need a foundation in solidarity to accept forgiveness.



Quote:
What I don't see is why you need to make that connection. Consider the following example. I can say to you that a particular attack against your character is wrong and that the person who made it was being spiteful and intolerant. At this point, I have now expressed solidarity with you, in that we could bond together against this person.
The infant church sought to explain Christ's crucification in terms relevant to Messianic expectation. They understood it as atonement. That brings up the need to explain atonement, how does it work, what is it? Is it merely primitive notion of human sacrifice that replaces the temple sacrifice system?

Paul says "no" it replaces it but it is not another version of it. It's a entre into Christ's death (Roms 6)

*Christ dies for us
*we enter into his death when we commit to him
*we share in his resurrection as hope and future for us.

how does that work? Does it work like sympathetic magic, is it like the witch doctor sticking a pin in a doll? No, it's a symbol. It's a symbol of the relationship God is willing to die for you. In response we say "we are wiling to place ourselves into Christ's death, metaphorically, we know belong to Christ, we live for him.

the metaphor is exchanged for concrete results, we are spiritually renovated and we live in relationship with God.

that is the historical explanation ala ST. Paul. It's the history of Christian doctrine its a modern understanding of the way the question was answered in history by the most important theologian the church ever saw.


here's how the Great Paline Schoalr DEH Whiteley expalined it:


Whiteley: "If St. Paul can be said to hold a theory of the modus operandi [of the atonement] it is best described as one of salvation through participation [the 'solidarity' view]: Christ shared all of our experience, sin alone excepted, including death in order that we, by virtue of our solidarity with him, might share his life...Paul does not hold a theory of substitution..." (The Theology of St. Paul, 130)An example of one of the great classical theologians of the early chruch who held to a similar view is St. Irenaeus (according to Whiteley, 133).



2) Scrtiptural


...all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were Baptized into his death.? We were therefore burried with him in baptism into death in order that just as Christ was raised from the death through the glory of the father, we too may live a new life. If we have been united with him in his death we will certanly be united with him in his resurrection.For we know that the old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be rendered powerless, that we should no longer be slaves to sin.--because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.Now if we have died with Christ we believe that we will also live with him, for we know that since Christ was raised from the dead he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him; the death he died to sin he died once for all; but the life he lives he lives to God. In the same way count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Chrsit Jesus.(Romans 6:1-5)


In Short, if we have united ouselves to Chrsit, entered his death and been raised to life, we participate in his death and ressurection thourgh our act of solidairty, united with Christ in his death, than it stands tto reason that his death is an act of solidarity with us, that he expresses his solidarity with humanity in his death.



part 2



Quote:
You seem to be suggesting that, at this point, you would need to ask for my forgiveness in order to accept my offer of solidarity. As opposed to just saying 'thanks' and moving forward.
no. if I accept solidarity with you the ground for forgiveness is established and forgiveness is tacit. you are getting it backwards. You can't forgive or accept forgiveness if there still enmity.


Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metacrock View Post
where?

It was when I asked "where does it say that we're sinning".
I pointed to Romans

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metacrock View Post
there is no absence of God.


While you have argued for the lack of absence of a ground of being, you have never convinced me that there is a connection between GOB and the Christian version of God.
Unfortunate for you



Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metacrock View Post
solidarity is necessary for salvation. you can't have a covenant without it. The whole concept of covenant is essentially based upon a solidarity between the two parties.

Again, why the salvation. Solidarity is, at a minimum, an unspoken covenant, yes. But there is no reason for salvation to be necessary.

yes of course it is. I think perhaps you don't understand the concept (no offense, few people do). The term "salvation" in Greek is two words:

(1)Soteria

Original Word Word Origin
soteria feminine of a derivative of (4990) as (properly, abstract) noun
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Soteria 7:965,1132
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
so-tay-ree'-ah Noun Feminine

Definition
deliverance, preservation, safety, salvation
deliverance from the molestation of enemies in an ethical sense, that which concludes to the souls safety or salvation
of Messianic salvation salvation as the present possession of all true Christians future salvation, the sum of benefits and blessings which the Christians, redeemed from all earthly ills, will enjoy after the visible return of Christ from heaven in the consummated and eternal kingdom of God. Fourfold salvation: saved from the penalty, power, presence and mostimportantly the pleasure of sin. A.W. Pink


Verse Count: 5


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Ro 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Ro 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation.
Ro 10:10 for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
Ro 11:11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.
Ro 13:11 And this do, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed.



(2) Sodzo


Original Word Word Origin
sozo from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saoz, "safe")
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Sozo 7:965,1132
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
sode'-zo Verb

Definition
to save, keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction
one (from injury or peril)
to save a suffering one (from perishing), i.e. one suffering from disease, to make well, heal, restore to health to preserve one who is in danger of destruction, to save or rescue to save in the technical biblical sense
negatively 1b to deliver from the penalties of the Messianic judgment 1b to save from the evils which obstruct the reception of the Messianic deliverance

Verse Count: 8


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Ro 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
Ro 5:10 For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
Ro 8:24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one also hope for what he sees?
Ro 9:27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "Though the number of the sons of Israel be AS THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED;
Ro 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved;
Ro 10:13 for"Whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved."
Ro 11:14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.
Ro 11:26 and thus all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob."

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1Co 1:18 For the word of the cross is to those who are perishing foolishness, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
1Co 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire.
1Co 5:5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


Let's generalize these defintions together to say the concept he's getting at is to have one's life made sure, to be rescued. to be put in a safe place.

what goes with that are other concepts such as "born again" to be regenerated. so I say salvation is a process of spiritual healing and the end result (played out over a lifetime) is emotional healing and safety from the vicissitudes of life, and knowledge of God.

this is what we all need. Life is filled with pain, we get screwed up.




Quote:
All of this conversation seems to boil down to the idea of sin. Why is it that you believe that we need salvation? Pointing to Romans isn't enough, because at best that is saying that Paul is right without providing any foundation for that opinion.

I can assert Paul's rightness because that's in the canon. That's a mainstay of the belief system I've committed to. But just observing life I say it's true. We do sin, we fall away,we miss the mark. We need healing and renew and to be made safe.
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