Friday, September 17, 2010

The Limits of Science in the Search for God part 2: Questions Science Can't answer (and Religion can)

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The dispute between theists and atheists is, in large part, a squabble over epistemology. Atheists tend to be empiricists, as famous atheist blogger Austin Cline puts it:


Atheists tend to be either exclusively or primarily empiricists: they insist that truth-claims be accompanied by clear and convincing evidence which can be studied and tested. Theists tend to be much more wiling to accept rationalism, believing that "truth" can be attained through revelations, mysticism, faith, etc. This is consistent with how atheists tend to place primacy on the existence of matter and argue that the universe is material in nature whereas theists tend to place primacy on the existence of mind (specifically: the mind of God) and argue that existence is more basically spiritual and supernatural in nature.[i]

The allure of empirical evidence is apparent. The atheist lives in a socially constructed totality of mutually reinforcing doubt. Anything that is not surface and thing oriented, a material object that can be touched, must be doubted. The truncated world of mere surface nature, a world constructed entirely out of material objects, ‘things,’ and nothing more, is consistently being touted as the only valid form of existence because it’s so solid, so in front of one’s face, so “there.” All one need do is examine Cline’s speech to see the totalizing understanding at work. He says: “Theists tend to be much more wiling to accept rationalism, believing that "truth" can be attained through revelations, mysticism, faith, etc.(above).” One wonders what is in that “ect,” but he classes among the tools of RATIONALISM revelation, mysticism and faith! Sense when? Rationalism has never meant supernatural and spiritual aids, it means reason and logic. The philosophes in the enlightenment were rationalists.  Atheists themselves pride themselves in their rational natures, yet Cline would have us believe that to be a rationalist is to be a mystic.
            The reason for this is no great mystery. Atheism thrives on the notion that it is the rational choice. It clings to science and the value of scientific thinking because science has come to be understood as the umpire of reality. Religion really does involve a global use of knowledge, thus the atheist emphasizes the less scientific more “irrational” methods of religion and conveniently forgets that theology also uses logic, reason, scientific approaches, textual criticisms, archaeology and so forth. When atheists are confronted with God arguments based upon logic suddenly the use of logic becomes foolish, unimportant, inadequate unable to give us answers. Then the rationalist becomes not a logician but a mystic. Theistic rationalism is boiled down to the “spiritual” aspects and cut off from reason to make theism appear foolish. The truth of it is the atheist is truncating the world, cutting of everything below the surface. The atheist world is like a frozen sea where ice bergs end at the waterline. It’s true that religious thinking does employ these means that atheists seek to make appear foolish, revelation, mystical experience and so on.  That’s part of being global. Global approach to knowledge means using everything we know. Those more pneumatic methods are related to and grounded in the use of reason and the validated of scientific testing. This is true even on the level of daily living where untrained laymen do not make clinical field trials but live their lives, they gravitate to that which works for them and that which doesn’t work they leave alone. The more academic theological thinker employs all the techniques known to modern humanity, including science. Yet the true ground of understanding for God is in the heart. The atheist seeks to cut off the heart by disparaging it as “subjective,” “superstitious,” “unscientific” but that’s because they have to do that to make their case. Their case is based upon truncating reality.
            Is empirical evidence the best or only true form of knowledge? This is an apologetics question because it bears upon the arguments for the existence of God. Is lack of empirical evidence, if there is a lack, a draw back for God arguments?
I deny that there is a lack, but it has to be put in the proper context. That will come in future chapters, for this one I will bracket that answer and just assume there is no really good empirical evidence (even though I think there is). Empiricism is not the true source of knowledge by itself, logic is more important.  What I’m really aiming at is not logic alone but a global approach to knowledge, using everything we have. It all has to work together. Part of that global approach must include the use of epistemology as a starting point; otherwise we are making unfounded assumptions about method without really considering our basic premises before we start. It seems that a fundamental aspect of getting started has to be to acquire an understanding of our tools and an understanding of what they are designed to do. Empiricism, though it is often approached as value and commitment by the atheist, is really just one of several tools. The tool of empiricism is designed to give us a basic understanding of the immediate nature not an exhaustive and final rendition of all reality. This is illustrated best by the nature of questions that empiricism can’t answer and can’t even begin to deal. These are epistemological questions. Epistemology is branch of philosophy concerned with the theory of knowledge.[ii] Epistemology is on a more basic level of human inquirers than science; science grew out of an attempt to answer epistemological problems. Science basically deals with systemic observation of sense data, its aim is to understand the workings of the physical world. The empiricist transforms the design of a tool into a philosophy in itself trying to cause us to stay stuck at the level where all we ever consider is the physical world. The inability of science to answer basic epistemological questions demonstrates that it is unsuited to answer questions about the ultimate nature of reality.
            Descartes the rationalist reached one of the seminal moments in western thought; his cogito is important to any modern scientific thinker because it helped to stem the damage of the intellectual crisis of Europe and provided a basis for relative certainty that allowed confidence in human ability to gather knowledge and to move forward with modern science.. Descartes wanted to find the basic level of certainty that he could not doubt. He asked questions such as “how do I know I exist?”  “How do I know that I’m not being deceived by an evil genius?” The most basic thing he could not doubt was that he was thinking about how he knew he wasn’t being deceived. His answer is formulated thus, “I think, therefore, I am,” (Latin: cigito, ergo sum referred to as “the cogito”). Now the un-initiated non philosophy people who first encounter this in introductory classes mock and ridicule it saying “what a stupid thing to worry about, we know we exist because we are alive and looking at the world.” In so doing they are basically the same steps.  Of course no one worries about this, Descartes didn’t worry about it. What they miss is the fact that Descartes wasn’t actually worried that he might not exist; he was trying to work up a method that would find the most indubitable thing and work out form there. This is all pabulum for a philosophy student, Philosophy 101, fall semester. The problem is there’s a basic fallacy that Descartes is often accused of committing, it used to be “the epistemologist fallacy” sometimes called “the empiricist dilemma.” The empiricists came along and said “but you can’t get outside of your experiences to check and see if they are true.” In other words, the cogito may be the one thing of which you can be certain but you can’t move on from it by pure reason to establish the world, you have to accept your sense data as the primary source of knowledge. Thus the basic school of the empiricists was born.
            The nature of epistemological questions holds a greater problem for the adherent of scientism or the adherent of reductionism, the new atheist, the scientific empiricist than just a mere technicality in the history of philosophy. The fact that science can’t provide the answer, not that there aren’t good answers, but that science can’t provide them presents a very significant problem for those who believe that science is the only source of knowledge. For those who believe this, science is usually understood as holding an answer to everything, or everything worth knowing. Just collecting more data wont resolve questions of perception being illusory, any data collected would be suspect as part of the illusion.[iii] That science can’t provide the answers for questions of epistemology is crucial because epistemology of course is about how we know what we know, for one who believes that this one kind of knowledge is the only knowledge, to see that this source of all knowledge has no answer for this one kind of question, a question of knowledge itself, if it’s really taken to heart, has to be crushing. Of course they don’t take it to heart; they usually just rationalize it away. Be that as it may the reductionism, the champion of scientism usually comes back and says something like “I don’t have to worry about whether or not I exist because here I am, assuming I do seems to work rather well because it enables me to get through the day so I’m justified in assuming that I do exist.” Look at the nature of the answer; that is not science, its philosophy! They are essentially demonstrating my point in trying to answer because they have to resort to philosophy, having no scientific data to dispel the possibility of illusion cast over our perceptions. The nature of the answer is rather amusing because it allows one to then posit that religious experience is just as trust worthy as a huge body of scientific data demonstrates that religious experience enables one to navigate through life in certain respects.[iv] So when there actually is some data pertaining to the matter, it supports religious belief and not atheism. But the point is one must pull together a meaningful answer to this kind of question by use of means other than scientific. Thus there have to be other forms of knowledge and in dealing with the ultimate concerns of human being those other methods are crucial.
            There are many such questions. One can easily come up with them, from the banal, “How do we know the sun will come up tomorrow?”  To the profound “why is there something rather than nothing.”

How do we know the sun will come up tomorrow?
How do we know the future will be like the past?
How do we know we exist?
How do we know other minds exist external to our own?
How do we know our lives are not illusory
How do we know we are not butterflies dreaming we are humans?
How do we know we are not brains in vats, ect ect.

The trick always works the same way. They try to answer the question by departing form scientific data and making use of philosophy, however slight or undeveloped their understanding of philosophy. The question about the sun coming up is a good trick because many atheist confuse probability with science, they think they are giving a scientific answer when they say “because it always has before” as though just any reference to numbers is scientific. Yet, probably, while a major tool used in science, becomes something more like philosophy in this context, because it requires a philosophical understanding to argue that we should allow ourselves to trust the probability. This is still the childish level of fun with arguments and a more sophisticated scientific type who knows something about the philosophy of the Cartesian era would bash it out in a few minutes. We have a more complex problem when we being to ask questions about navigation in life and about meaning in life. It’s not that big a trick to figure out why we should trust the sun to come up, or why we should trust out senses when they are so regular and consistent.
            The upshot is that not only do we have to bring in philosophy to offer these answers, but we have to make them or else just ignore the question. In other words, no scientific data will ever answer these questions; they have to be the result of a judgment. We have to make an epistemic judgment to answer to such questions. The skeptic thinks she’s triumphantly answering this argument when she resorts to this fact, but in reality she is giving the answer the apologist wants to hear. Of course we have to make a judgment, that the judgment is based upon empirical data from the senses doesn’t prove that science answers the question, no far from it, it proves that science can’t answer it and the inquirer has to be based upon a judgment call and the next best thing to actually answering it is going by empirical observation. Even at that level it’s not “science” per se that’s enabling us to make the judgment, but a philosophical turn of mind that is willing to extrapolate from the data (closer to philosophy because the skeptic always rails against extrapolation when it’s about faith). The decision to make a judgment requires a philosophical deliberation, and the subject matter is not scientific. The fact of this the necessity to make the judgment is the basis for my God argument I call “argument from epistemic judgment.”[v] If the perceptions we have are regular, consistent, inter-subjective and enable navigation (and the studies studies show the affirmative on all counts) then we have the same reason to trust them that we have to trust regular experiences of the world, even though these are religious experiences. Science can’t go near the question or any of these the above questions because it’s job is to tell us about the physical world not how we know what we know, not the ultimate nature of reality. One must make a leap of faith or beg the question to assume that there is nothing more to reality than just the physical fact of things existing. This is faith, not science. Science does not work by faith.
            Not only do these epistemological questions of the empiricist dilemma highlight the need for philosophical thinking, the limited nature of science to answer such questions, but science itself shows us empirically (pardon the irony) that science is unable to provide the answer to epistemology. Andrew Newberg tells us:


The medieval German mystic Meister Echkart lived hundreds of years before the science of neurology was born. Yet it seems he had intuitively grasped one of the fundamental principles of the discipline: What we think of, as reality is only a rendition of reality that is created by the brain. Our modern understanding of the brain’s perceptual powers bears him out. Nothing enters consciousness whole. There is no direct, objective experience of reality. All the things the mind perceives—all thoughts, feelings, hunches, memories, insights, desires, and revelations—have been assembled piece by piece by the processing powers of the brain from the swirl of neural blimps. The idea that our experiences of reality—all our experiences, for that matter—are only “secondhand” depictions of what may or may not be objectively real, raises some profound questions about the most basic truths of human existence and the neurological nature of spiritual experience. For example our experiment with Tibetan mediators and Franciscan nuns showed that the events they considered spiritual were, in fact, associated with observable neurological activity. In a reductionist sense this could support the argument that religious experience is only imagined neurologically, that God is physically ‘all in your mind.’ But a full understanding of the way in which the brain and the mind assemble and experience reality suggests a very different view.[vi]


The brain re-writes reality for us as part of the cognitive features that make up our physical perceptions. That means not that our physical perceptions are giving us an accurate representation of the world but that they are re writing the world for us. Our perceptions are not what is actually there but what our brains have re-written to present to us as a simulacra of what is there. It’s not that we can establish reasonable probability that enables us to get by in life, of course we can. The fact that we do this all the time indicates that this is not a debilitating condition; the fact of it is, however, that our ability to do that depends upon philosophical thinking and making of metaphors, not upon empiricism or scientific data.
            We have to put together all the sense data and the re-written version of reality our brains give us, but we have to apply philosophical thinking to come up with the answer “I can trust the sun will come up because it has always done so before.” We can’t really do this without thinking philosophically. The answer to questions about how we know what we take to be “reality” is “real,” involves a philosophical leap of faith. We can’t bridge the gap in knowledge by literally establishing the accuracy of the way the brain re-writes the world, we can only make an epistemic judgment; that’s what the answers people give, “the sun will come up again because it always does.” That answer is a judgment, it’s really guess based upon probability.  That’s philosophical. In fact Newberg shows that the brain actually has a philosophical judgment function already “built-in” to our perceptions. He calls them “cognitive operators.” One such operator enables us to see the whole broken down into component parts and another allows us to group component parts and see the whole. It’s as though what we need to gather data and build a picture of the world is designed into our cognitive array. My purpose here, however, is not to make a design argument. Rather I am arguing that the only things that really make all of this work are counter intuitively not aspects that allow one to one accurate viewing of the world but instead enable the kinds of thinking that empiricists and atheist don’t like, thinking that’s more a part of the arts and humanities, and philosophy; the making of metaphor, without which language would be impossible, and extrapolation, requiring imagination.[vii] Without these kinds of thinking and the ability to employ them philosophically to questions of perception and to general questions about the meaning of life, we would not be able to operate in the world. This is not supplied by scientific data, nor could it be. This is not an issue that can be bridged by better gathering of data because any data we gather would be useless without the ability to extrapolate form it and think philosophically.
            What we see at work in the reliance upon philosophy to bolster science in the epistemological realm, and then to criticize philosophy for not being science, is the tendency of scientism to bring philosophy in through the backdoor; that is a necessary move to bolster the atheist ideology because without that they could never even suggest anything about the nature of reality. Of course real scientific thought is much more sophisticated than anything I portray here, as is real philosophical thinking. Hopefully real major physicists don’t think that science is the only source of knowledge. I am inclined to pick on those who do think this and I refer to them as “sciensistic.” Atheists and skeptics tend to be scientistic. The scientism crowd must bring philosophy in the back door because without doing that they could not tout their ideology. Ideology touting is a philosophical move. Pronouncements such as “metaphysics is useless made up garbage” is a metaphysical statement. Thus one must do metaphysics in order to say “metaphysics sux.” Sometimes major physicists do talk rot and move too far into the realm of expropriating philosophy, especially when they want to sell books. Such an instance is seen now in the new publicity stunt Stephen Hawking, who, awaiting release of his new book declares that God did not create the universe. The book is not yet out, thus we have only pre-release reviews to go by. We do know one thing already; science has no business making pronouncements about God because God is not a scientific question. God is in the realm of questions that science can’t answer. The proof is to sit back (with popcorn) and watch the circus as scientist like Hawking sneak in philosophy disguised as science.
            The shocking proclamation of the book is to be that God did not create the universe, science can accent for it all. Most reviewers have lost no time in pointing out the obvious; Hawking’s mechanism (gravity) is left unexplained.
God did not create the universe, world-famous physicist Stephen Hawking argues in a new book that aims to banish a divine creator from physics. Hawking says in his book The Grand Design  that, given the existence of gravity, "the universe can and will create itself from nothing," according to an excerpt published Thursday in The Times of London. "Spontaneous creation is the reason why there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist," he writes in the excerpt."It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper [fuse] and set the universe going," he writes.[viii]


Probably that is the hook when the book is released, the pretense that does explain. Prediction: the book will be sold on the premise that it disproves the need for God because it accounts scientifically for gravity, but the real trick is to what for what is surreptitiously lurking behind the veil. Not the idea that they can’t demonstrate the basis for gravity
            The questions that science poses and the questions that religious belief pose are totally different sorts of questions. There are points of overlap. Most of these stem form the ages before science really had an systematic to it, the ancient world, pre historic world.  These are the days when the most sophisticated scientific knowledge was smelting and sword making, and even that was not understood in a way that we would call "scientific."  In that setting it was natural (meaning logical and practical) to use religion as the explanation for the natural world. From this era when people looked to religion to make it answer questions it can't answer, we have hold over ideas (such as Genesis creation myth--which we need to learn how to read as a myth--and that means we need to learn the value in myth) that we have these conflicts. Science doesn’t work by faith, but science’s task is to understanding the workings of the physical world. On the other hand, this is not the only thing that humans wonder about. The nature of human wonderment is bigger than just the physical world. We wonder about our very place in being. How are we going to understand the nature of being empirically when we can't get outside of being to study it? We can understand it from the standpoint of beings in being, but that's subjective. We can't get outside of being to understand what being is. This is why science is inadequate to deal with questions like the existence of God, thus the lack of empirical evidence for God cannot be understood as a reason to disbelieve the existence of God. Atheists reject “subjective” view points and evidence, but that’s the only of knowledge we have. Objectivity is a pretense. Humans are not objective and science is not an objective means of obtaining all possible truth. The reductionists will counter with the assertion that the only possible alternative is superstition or magic or some kind of primitive animism, but they ignore logic, philosophy and phenomenology.

Heidegger’s ultimate question, why is there something rather than nothing at all. This probably the most important question of ontology, and it's one science can't begin to answer. The basis of religious thinking, although Heidegger was an atheist, it need to entail a religious answer. To even begin to think about the issue one must depart the field of science, leave aside the workings of the physical world and embark upon contemplation of a concept foreign to scinece; the question of "why?" Science thrives on "how?" It doesn't contain "why?"

           In addition to epistemological questions and ontological there are also moral questions. Much has been done to try and construct moral philosophy based upon scientific underpinnings, mainly though trying to establish a genetic basis for morality. This is not valid because it can’t tell us the “should.” Moral philosophy, ethics, morality all of these kinds of thinking require the word “should” be part of their formulations; one should or should not do X.  Merely establishing a fact of nature lending itself to a predisposition toward a certain kind of behavior does not tell us that we should or should not do that behavior. To try and base morality upon genetics is a violation of Hume’s fork. One cannot establish and ought from an “is.” Suppose we dissected living humans to observe the workings of the human body. We could learn a great deal, science would be greatly served, but science can’t tell us we should or should not do that, and doing it because it serves science is no guarantee that it would be ethical. Now one might argue “that’s common sense, this is repugnant because it’s a violation of our human feeling, we feel in the gut that’s it is wrong and that’s all we need to ay it is wrong. The feeling is not science. Utilitarianism is not science. Enlightenment self interest is not science. None of the basic reasons atheists and physicalists will give for not doing so are science. The moral answers atheists take to the questions have to come from thinking other than scientific thought, and certainly scientific data can’t tell us where the “should” is. If we even care about the dimension of the moral in the first place, we have to move into the realm of philosophy and ask other kinds of questions than that science can answer. Questions of moral philosophy overlap with questions of God, much more so then they do with questions of science. Scientific empiricism is not prepared to answer such questions, nor to deal with epistemology, but also has inherent problems even for it’s own tasks.


[i] Austine Cline, About.com, Atheism/Agnosticism (blog) URL: http://atheism.about.com/od/philosophybranches/p/Epistemology.htm Visited 8/27/2010
[ii] Antony Flew, A Dictionary of Philosophy, revised second edition. New York: St. Martin’s press, 1979,109.
[iii] When I employ this game playing strategy in argument with atheist on the internet they usually become outraged at the point where they realize that more data won’t help. The start cursing and saying that I’m “attacking science, and saying things like “that’s crazy, no one would worry about existing or not.” But the reasons they give are always indicative of philosophical thinking, even the ones who say philosophy is just made up rubbish.
[iv] See my previous work The Trace of God, Grand Viaduct publishing. Chapter 3
[v] see J.L. Hinman. The Trace of God, Dallas and Colorodo Springs: Grand Viaduct Publishing, 2010 ,chapter 3, “Arguments”
[vi] Andrew Newberg, Why God Won’t God Away: Brain Science and the Biology of Belief. (New York, Ballentine Books), 2001,35-36.
[vii] Ibid 52.
[viii] Richard Allen Green. “Stephen Hawking:God Didn’t Create the Universe” CNN World. (September 02, 2010).

Wednesday, September 15, 2010

The limits of Science in the Search for God, part 1

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I. A Global approach to knowledge enables us to understand the inadequacy of the scientifically based view that writes God out of the picture.
II. Understanding the need for the global approach to knowledge gives us the understanding of the link between ground of being and the divine.
III. Understanding these two points gives us the basic realization of the reality of God that frees us from the need to prove.



Since Laplace uttered those fateful words, “I have no need of that [God] hypothesis” God has been disassociated from science. Just why he uttered them is another matter but the upshot seems to be that those who find their hobby if not their profession in doubting the reality of the divine do so on the grounds that its not “officially backed” by science. The constant refrain of atheists heard around the net every single day “there’s no proof for YOUR God” echoes the call for scientific evidence as the only form of knowledge. The success of the “Back to God movement” in philosophy, stunning though it has been, nevertheless is tainted with the dismissal on the part of atheists, skeptics, and some agnostics that God arguments are not “scientific.” The God argument as a species is broadly criticized for not being science and for being philosophy. The point of this work is to demonstrate the notion that belief in God is rationally warranted, but that it need not be demonstrated with scientific rational. The purpose here is to forge a new apologetics.
This new apologetics focuses upon knowing in a deep personal way that can’t be denied by the one who comes to know, rather than wasting one’s time trying to prove things to those who do not wish to know. What we need to do is to make the proper tools availed to the seeker, to do that we have to disabuse seekers of the benighted notion that the only way to know something is through scientific data. The aim here is to demonstrate the basis for a phenomenological and existential realization of the reality of God and how to put oneself in a position where that realization becomes real to the experincer and can be validated by logic, reason, and other sources in a global understanding of all our knowledge.
As the alternative to the atheistic view of scientism I will propose a theological approach centering upon phenomenology, and culminating in theological method. The point is to produce an apologetical approach that makes the process of God realization transparent to the seeker. The way to do this is to understand the connection between an understanding of human being and it’s relation to being itself. I will defend a notion similar to that of Paul Tillich’s idea that God is being itself, or the ground of being; that I equate with the super essential godhead of Dionysus the areopagite. Tillich said that if you know being has depth you can’t be an atheist. He equates the depth of being with the realization that God is the ground of being.[i] Thus, if he’s right, all one need to do is to understand what that means, then observe the depth of being. Understanding the relationship between the ground of being and the question of the divine, from the outset, is crucial because how we understand the concept of “God” will make all the difference in what we seek and what we find, and what we reject. If we are looking to prove the existence of a big man in the sky and we don’t understand the concept of God as the ground of being, or being itself, we are going to miss the whole point of belief and write God off because there’s no big man in the sky. Being is all around us and we are in it, so we tend to take it for granted and we are going to miss what being is and how that relates to God if we don’t understand Tillich’s concept. A silly little analogy that I use to illustrate this notion is about a fish scientist who was hired by the high council of Tuna to find the strange substance humans believe in called “water.” The fish had never seen any water so they wanted to know what it is. The fish scientist examined every puddle and depression he could find but found no water. He eventually concluded that humans are deluded about water because he could find no examples of it. Of course that’s because it never dawned on him that this state of normality in which he is submerged and is surrounded by all the time could be illusive substances humans’ thrive on, water. As a fish empiricist our scale clad investigator was certain that what he was looking for had to be an object that he could see, he forgot to look at the substance he was always looking through. So it is with being, we write it off as “just what is” and go on looking for this “God” who can’t be found because we don’t understand he’s nearer than our inmost being. Such is the pitfall of scientific empiricism.
In my dealings with atheists in debate and dialogue I find that they are often very committed to an empiricist view point. Over and over again I hear the refrain "you can't show one single unequivocal demonstration of scientific data that proves a God exists." This is not a criticism. It's perfectly understandable; science has become the umpire of reality. It is to scientific demonstration that we appeal for most of our questions concerning the nature of reality. The problem is that the reliance upon empiricism has led to forgetfulness about the basis of other types of questions, other view points, and other forms of knowledge. We have forgotten that essentially science is metaphysics; as such it is just one of many approaches that can be derived from analytical reasoning, empiricism, rationalism, phenomenology and other view points. The attitudes of various atheists from all walks demonstrate the power of the view that science is the only valid way of thinking. Consider the popular level:

The question of God’s existence is incredibly loaded because, if God doesn’t exist, the majority of people in the world derive meaning in their lives from a lie. For this reason, the capacity for natural science to explain why things happen without appeal to the supernatural is threatening to religion and to religious believers. After all, if we can explain everything without appeal to God’s intervention, why introduce Him into the equation at all?[ii]

Again from the popular level, a website called God is Imaginary:

There is no scientific evidence indicating that God exists. We all know that. For example:
  • God has never left any physical evidence of his existence on earth.
  • None of Jesus' "miracles" left any physical evidence either. (see this page)
  • God has never spoken to modern man, for example by taking over all the television stations and broadcasting a rational message to everyone.
  • The resurrected Jesus has never appeared to anyone. (see this page)
  • The Bible we have is provably incorrect and is obviously the work of primitive men rather than God. (see this page)
  • When we analyze prayer with statistics, we find no evidence that God is "answering prayers." (see this page)
  • Huge, amazing atrocities like the Holocaust and AIDS occur without any response from God.
  • And so on…
Let's agree that there is no empirical evidence showing that God exists.
If you think about it as a rational person, this lack of evidence is startling. There is not one bit of empirical evidence indicating that today's "God", nor any other contemporary god, nor any god of the past, exists. In addition we know that:
  1. If we had scientific proof of God's existence, we would talk about the "science of God" rather than "faith in God".
  2. If we had scientific proof of God's existence, the study of God would be a scientific endeavor rather than a theological one.
  3. If we had scientific proof of God's existence, all religious people would be aligning on the God that had been scientifically proven to exist. Instead there are thousands of gods and religions.
The reason for this lack of evidence is easy for any unbiased observer to see. The reason why there is no empirical evidence for God is because God is imaginary.[iii]


Of course these attitudes are backed by the more academically inclined leaders of the New Atheist movement such as Dennett and Dawkins and Hitchens. These sorts of attitudes have always been around since the enlightenment, but since the dawning of this century they have been strident and associated with a complete sceintism.


The New Atheists subscribe to some version or other of scientism as their criterion for rational belief. According to scientism, empirical science is the only source of our knowledge of the world (strong scientism) or, more moderately, the best source of rational belief about the way things are (weakreligious epistemology), it is not surprising that some criticism of their views has included questions about whether there is adequate scientific support for scientism and whether there is adequate evidence for evidentialism.[iv] scientism). Harris and Dawkins are quite explicit about this. Harris equates a genuinely rational approach to spiritual and ethical questions with a scientific approach to these sorts of questions. Dawkins insists that the presence or absence of a creative super-intelligence is a scientific question. The New Atheists also affirm evidentialism, the claim that a belief can be epistemically justified only if it is based on adequate evidence. The conjunction of scientism and evidentialism entails that a belief can be justified only if it is based on adequate scientific evidence. The New Atheists’ conclusion that belief in God is unjustified follows, then, from their addition of the claim that there is inadequate scientific evidence for God’s existence (and even adequate scientific evidence for God’s non-existence). Dawkins argues that the “God Hypothesis” the claim that there exists a superhuman, supernatural intelligence who deliberately designed and created the universe, is “founded on local traditions of private revelation rather than evidence” (2006, pp. 31-32). Given these New Atheist epistemological assumptions (and their consequences for


Take the view point of Richard Dawkins in his most celebrated work The God Delusion. [v]

The argument from improbability is the big one. In the traditional guise of the argument from design, it is easily today’s most popular argument offered in favor of the existence of God, and it is seen, by an amazingly large number of theists, as completely and utterly convincing. It is indeed a very strong, and, I suspect, unanswerable argument—but in precisely the opposite direction form the theist’s intension. The argument from improbability, properly deployed, comes close to proving that God does not exist…[vi]

This quotation tells us several very important things about the major leader of the new atheist movement thinks. The first thing this quotation tells us is that Dawkins views evolution as an atheist territory, he doesn’t think of evolution as a theistic possibility, he can only conceive of belief in God being the domain of people who can’t understand evolution. He thinks of God belief as strictly creationist territory. He basically says as much in following up this quotation above he talks about the analogy of a 747 being assembled by random chance from a junk yard. “This in a nutshell is the creationist favorite argument.”[vii] He doesn’t say there are other theological views and he doesn’t deal with them, as though they don’t exist. One might forgive this tendency if he thinks liberal theology is just out of the main stream and thus beyond the focus of the popular audience. Nevertheless he goes even further, “It turns out to be the God hypothesis that tries to get the free lunch…however statistically improbable the entity you seek to explain by evoking a designer, the designer himself has got to be at least as improbable. God is the ultimate 747.”[viii]
He is doing more than just reversing the design argument he’s trying to apply the logic of the design argument to a critique of belief in God. This led to the often repeated refrain on message boards and blogs, “who designed the designer?” That’s not exactly what he’s saying either. He’s establishing the idea that God has to meet the same requirements of probability that nature has to meet as an alternative to God. The point here, however, is the thing that enables him to make this argument is the badly misconstrued nature of theology in the evangelical camp that allows for an application of the same principle to God that we take to examining nature. He is treating God like a big man in the sky. God is subject to the laws of probability? Since when is God a “thing” in creation to be discussed in the same manner one discusses planetary formation? Since fundamentalists and evangelicals began thinking of God as a big man in the sky rather than the foundation of all that is. When we think of God as “creator” and “designer” rather than “ground of being” we put God in the category to be analyzed by the laws of probability. There is no logical reason why the ground of being could be analyzed as though it is just another thing in creation alongside flush toilets and swizzle sticks. God is not probable at all, but not because “the divine” is too complex, but because there’s no way to compare complexity when the word itself is made meaningless by trying to compare the basis of all reality to things in reality. This is like trying to apply up and down, north, south, east, and west in outer space. Which way is up when there’s no down? Which way is west when there’s no horizon? The creationists really put all of this in motion by thinking of God a “designer” rather than preserving the truth of God that the church fathers taught us, that God is beyond our understanding. In their haste to produce an argument that modern science could relate to and prove these apologists, such as William Paley (really Newton and Boyle before), tried to ground proof in empirical data and succeeded only in creating the impression, perhaps even against their own beliefs, that God can be thought of analogously to a big man in the sky. Dawkins is not going to work very hard at correcting the impression. When we do correct we can see that there is a way offered by the basic concepts of God as the ground of being to realize the reality of God in such a way that we don’t have to rely upon data or empirical scientific observations to know that God is real.
The common denominator lurking behind all of these viewpoints is the assertion that science is the only form of knowledge, one may only believe that which is “officially” proved by science. Lurking behind that is an ideology that picks and chooses what is and what is not “officially scientific,” according to what enables the atheist’s case and what enables the theistic case. The problem with all of this is the scientism lurking behind the ideology that lurks behind the “commitment” to scientific thought. Here I don’t mean all commitment to scientific thought of course, but that that has been pressed into service of the strident atheism. That ideology says that science is the only form of knowledge. The only way to know the nature of the world and the reality of any hypothetical creator is through scientific means. The reason this ideology has been fostered is because it is set up to yield poor results for God proof. Thus it’s a means of dismissing religious thinking without really considering what it has to say. We should not expect to find God directly through scientific means. God is beyond sense data. Most of the major world religions posit that “God,” or “the divine,” or transcendental signified or however they construe the top of the metaphysical hierarchy, is beyond human understanding. God is usually understood as transcendent. Being transcendent, beyond human knowledge, not given in sense data, we should not expect to find any direct proof of God in a scientific vein. That means any scientific evidence that points to God can only do so in an indirect way. To that extent then it’s totally fallacious to point to the dearth of scientific proofs as a weakness in religious belief. Logically this has to be that the place to look is on other grounds. From a stand point of pure knowledge scientific tools are inadequate to find God. If there is a God if there is not a God, science is totally inadequate to answer the question about the divine. Philosophy, logic, reason, personal experience are all discounted by the atheist on the grounds that they are “subjective” and not “scientific.” What they are really saying is “that’s not the method that backs my ideology so I can’t accept it as a source of knowledge.” If science is not the valid way to understand God then obviously we have to use other means. If we do use those proper tools, and God appears to be a more valid option then it did, atheists will refuse the proper tools because they don’t privilege their position. While not all atheists think this way, one runs into this attitude all the time. The best thing to do is use the proper tools.
my proposals

(1) Scientific reductionism loses phenomena by re-defining the nature of sense data and quailia.

(2)There are other ways of Knowing than scientific induction

(3) Religious truth is apprehended phenomenoloigcally, thus religion is not a scientific issue and cannot be subjected to a materialist critique

(4) Religion is not derived from other disciplines or endeavors but is an approach to understanding in its own right

Therefore, religious belief is justified on its own terms and not according to the dictates or other disciplines


[i] Paul Tilllich, The Shaking of the Foundations. New York, Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1948, 152-55.
[ii] “Liza” public opinion expressed by commenter on blog “Apple Eaters,” no date given. UTL: http://theappleeaters.wordpress.com/2010/03/10/philosophers-scientists-and-the-new-atheism/ visited 8/26/2010
[iii] Website God is Imaginary . URL http://godisimaginary.com/i11.htm visited 8/26/2010
[iv] James E Tylor, Internet encyclopedia of Philosophy: A peer Reviewed Academic Resource. Last updated January 26,2010, URL: http://www.iep.utm.edu/n-atheis/ visited 8/26/2010. James E. Taylor is associated with Westmont College.
[v] Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion. New York: First Marionor books, Houton Mifflin Company, 2008 first published in Great Britain by Bantam, 2006. On line version Google Books URL: http://books.google.com/books?id=Ayt0bUwN5v4C&printsec=frontcover&dq=Dawkins+from+the+God+Delusion&source=bl&ots=6M_E5W8-Uo&sig=j5bAGhDSY6MGYxYeQpv_q8T3l_A&hl=en&ei=gPKATLvvHsHflgeNgKHnDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CDkQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q&f=true
[vi] Ibid. online page number 138 all quotations from this source are from the Google books online version.
[vii] Ibid.
[viii] Ibid.

Sunday, September 12, 2010

Are the Four Canonical Gospels Fiction? Debate with Doug Shaver

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 This is a debate on Theology Web with a worthy atheist opponent, whom I consider to be a friend, Doug Shaver. I think Shaver has one of the more rational approaches I've seen to the allegations of fictional Gospels. He's not saying they are lies, but that they were not an attempt at fraud. The Topic: The Gospel's are fictional. Doug is Affirmative, I am Negative.



Doug:
Thanks to Metacrock for inviting me to this event and to Kelp and the other TWEB staffers for providing the facilities.
 Meta: I also thank my worthy opponent for consenting to debate and I thank Kelp for setting it up.

Doug:

By "gospels" I refer particularly to the four canonical writings called Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. In general my arguments will apply as well to most if not all similar non-canonical writings, such as the gospels attributed to Thomas and Peter, but I'm going to treat them as irrelevant unless they come up in counterarguments. (It will be incidentally relevant, though, that anything I say pertinent to Luke's gospel will usually apply as well to the canonical Acts of the Apostles.)

By "fiction" I mean a nonfactual narrative composed by someone knowing it to be nonfactual and without intending his readers to think otherwise. I thus exclude any kind of fraud or lies. I neither assume nor imply any deceitful intent on the part of any author.

Meta:  I will not defend a position of inerrency, a certain degree of fictional material in the Gospels is not unthinkable to me. I will defend the overall outline of the narrative as historical. I think it's importan to take note of what is important to defend as historical. It's not important that each and every word recorded be proved historical or that each and ever miracle be historical. The general outline of the story consisting who Jesus was, what he taught in general and what the chruch teaches about the meaning of his death.

It makes much more sense to think that the theology of the resurrection was the chruch attempting to explain what happened to its leard, which would only be necessary if it really happened, than to think they made up the incidence of the cross and the empty tomb in order to fit come preconceived theology.

Doug:
Any attempt to assess the gospel authors' intentions is inseparable from an investigative analysis of the origins of Christianity. The gospels were written during Christianity's formative years and were declared authoritative by certain of the religion's early leaders. What we need to explain is why those leaders considered them authoritative. One possible explanation is that the leaders had good reason to think these documents presented reliable historical information about Christianity's founding. I propose to demonstrate that such an opinion, if they held it, was unsupported by any good evidence and so was probably in error.

Meta: I don't mean any disparagement of my friend Doug, but I do feel that his is an inadequate analysis for the authorship of the Gospel. He seems to be assuming either that the Gospels were considered authoritative when they first appeared, he seems to assume single person authorship, or that the chruch authority structure was already in place and the Gospels accepted immediately upon their publication. These assumptions are wrong: the Gospels were the product of communities. As such there no reason to think they were accept by anyone outside of their respective communities for a long time after they began to circulate outside those communities. Their acceptance took shape gradually and acceptance by chruch leadership, other than the immediate community of origin, had noting to do with their composition.

Doug:
The conventional thinking in our own time about Christianity's origins, even among secular historians, is what some scholars have called the "big bang" theory. In this scenario, one Jesus of Nazareth, a charismatic Jewish preacher, was executed by Judea's Roman governor, Pontius Pilate, around 30 CE. Soon afterward certain of his disciples, known as apostles, having become convinced that Jesus had risen from the dead, formed a religious sect based on his teachings and claiming that he was the son of God and the fulfillment of Jewish messianic prophecies. The sect's original membership was predominantly Jewish. Shortly after the sect's founding, a Pharisee called Saul of Tarsus was converted and commenced a missionary campaign among gentiles under the new name of Paul. He was successful while the original apostles had little success in converting other Jews. After the First Jewish War, Christianity in effect severed its connection with Judaism while maintaining that it was the legitimate heir to its parent religion. As the sect's founders died off, numerous competing versions of Christianity arose and had to be resisted by adherents of the original apostolic teachings. The dissident sects were eventually suppressed and the apostolic teachings survived as the historic orthodoxy.

One problem is that this account is itself just the historic orthodoxy. We are getting our history from the winners, and the winners, for nearly a thousand years, were the sole custodians of the documentary record. With almost no exceptions, we have no writings from ancient times except those that the church regarded as worth preserving.

Meta: This view is ideological. It's really the ideology of an iconoclastic Jesus myth movement.  I wont speculate as to motives, that is not important. The fact of its' being ideolgoical is important because it is no less the result of a party line than the Orthodoxy they wish to counter. Moreover, what said above about the time line and the authority structure apply here. The Apostles may have been dying by the time we get the final form of the Gospels, the version we know today, but the Gospels were produced by communities not by chruch authorities at large. The not the works of a power structure and not necessarily accepted by them for some time. The battles Doug imagines were fought among he power structure of the chruch had yet to be fought when the Gospels were being composed.

Moreover, the conventional dating methods that place Mark at 70, Mat at 80, Luke 85 and John 95 only apply to the finished product of redaction, the point at which they began to circulate outside their communities. But most scholars now accept Helmutt Koester's idea that textual criticism reveals a much earlier layer of redaction that works form the same material and starts much earlier, within the life time of eye witnesses, during the lives of the Apostles and well before the kind of universal chruch superstructure that the Jesus Myth movement postulates. John Crosson agrees with Koster in placing the Passion narrative from pericopes to empty tomb at mid century, around AD 50. Peter Kirby tells us this view is now consensus.

Doug
(The accusations of some skeptics that the church actively sought out and destroyed heterodox writings is both unsupported and unmotivated. The church never needed to destroy those documents as long as no one took the trouble to copy them; time alone would have ensured their eventual disappearance.)

Meta: I commend my worthy opponent on his good sense.

Doug:
In any case, for any historical investigation we can use no evidence except existing evidence. Hypothetical facts can never prove anything. The only facts we have are that certain manuscripts exist containing writings of a certain nature. They appear to be copies, several times removed, of certain original documents, concerning which the authors of certain other documents claim certain things about their provenance. It is not a fact, but only an inference based on presuppositions about the reliability of those claims, that the gospels' authors intended their works to be biographical sketches about the founder of their religion. It is a dogma originally propounded by some leaders of one particular sect of Christianity that happened by historical accident to become victorious over all other sects.

Meta: That is no the view taken by modern scholarship. Textual criticism is a science. It's a valid proven science and it demonstrates the existence of pre Markan readings, and there is a great deal of that evidence. We certainly can use such evidence to avoid using it is to turn our backs upon a hundred years of scientific progress. How odd that atheists laud scinece as the replacement for God but when push comes to shove any scientific evidence that disproves their view they treat like it's superstision and rubbish. If one took the same level of skepticism and doubt to astronomy or chemistry that these guys take to real Biblical scholarship perhaps those fields would look less certain too?

We need to hold him to his statement that hypothetical facts can't prove anything. Let's remember that when we talk about Peter who Paul met being the same Peter in the Gospels. There's a lot more erason to accept the textual criticism's work than  this hypothetical speculation which has not support at all of any kind.

Its' important to Doug's case to deny such evidence because evidence such as Koster's and other textual critics forms the basis of arguments that pro e the historicity of the major outline of the Gospel story. There aer many sources of material that can be teased out by textual criticism. Older readings found copies as part of latter texts demonstrate the existence of versions of the Gospels that existed decades before the standard dates. It's also the case that there's a huge trend to earlier dates.

(1) link to sight with trend to ealeir dates.

(2) Pauline connection

(3) non canonical Gospels

(4) Diatesseron


Doug:

Precious few facts about Christianity's origins are truly uncontested by all competent authorities. However, a substantial fraction of the competent authorities are adherents of Christianity, and we are not committing the genetic fallacy if we take that into consideration when assessing their judgments.
 Meta: not the genetic fallacy it's guilt by association, with a bit of poisoning the well. This is very disappointing my worthy opponent needs to learn the proper way to handle evidence. This is nothing more than anti-intellectual evocation of the ideology against the enemy group and it's also again turning his back on scinece becasue it doesn't say what he wants it to.

It is not true that the majority of Textual critics are Evangelicals. He cannot use this broad brush to paint Koester or others I would quote without examining tier specific claims. Moreover, I quote very few non liberals. Hold his feet to the fire who who I quote make him show what camp they are in, and make him show why their specific works is wrong.

 Doug:

The handful of facts that actually are uncontested -- the data disputed by nobody -- are best explained by supposing the gospels to be fiction -- perhaps historical fiction, but fiction nonetheless. There could have been a real Jesus in the same sense that there was a real king of Scotland named Macbeth, successor of Duncan and succeeded by Duncan's son, Malcolm. Shakespeare's play Macbeth is still a work of pure fiction insofar as the real Macbeth never did or said anything that he is portrayed as doing or saying in the play. (That includes the assassination; the real Duncan died in battle, not in bed.)
Meta: a handful of facts is all it takes to demonstrate the historical outline of the story. All we need are two facts, the crucifixion and the resurrection, and we have Christianity.

This argument is going to come to nothing if he doesn't spell out what facts he means.

Doug:
For no ancient document is a presumption of historical reliability the correct default position. Evidence of the author's intention to write history must be adduced from other pertinent facts. Testimony may suffice, if we know the basis on which the witness gives such testimony.
 Meat: that's an inadequacy standard. not a standard historians use. The Jesus myth crowd makes up its own rules taylored to get around the disproofs of real scholarship. Crosson says he assumes that the atuhors believed the stories of the Gosepls as fact, there no reason to assume otherwise. He has to overturn presumption so he has to show compelling reason why we should look it differently.

Even if we assume a certain degree of fiction the Gospels themselves are still artifacts that tell us about the history of the early chruch and it's belief. There's no reason not to understand what they wrote s the belief of the community.

Doug:

In the case of the gospels, not even their existence is clearly and unambiguously attested before Irenaeus, ca 180 CE. He tells us nothing about his source of information about two of the authors, and for the other two he simply construes a vague offhand comment by Papias as proof that Matthew and Mark wrote them. No other patristic writer adds a single fact that provides any additional support to the historical orthodoxy about the gospels' provenance. On that basis alone, a great deal of skepticism about their historical reliability would be justified.
Meta: that's not true.

(1) we know their existence from 1 Clement (at least synopitcs)

(2) early fragments of John, not just Rylands but even Rylands establishes it as first decade 2c at the latest. The rule of thumb for text crits is ten years for copy and ten years for travel. The 135 Ryland's date is put back to AD 115.

(3) New Material reveals quotations of Mat in Talmud dates Matthew at about 70

(4) John A.T. Robinson begins dating proto Mark in the 30s. Since we know there were at least 2 versions fo Mark, because they are each used by Mat and Luke, then there must have been a pre Mark Mark way before 70.

(5) the material in Paul demonstrates his use of a saying source that is heavily synoptic and his allusions to narrative demonstrate the story was intact in the form we know it by AD 50 or so. (scroll to bottom of that link)

http://www.doxa.ws/Bible/Gospel_behind.html
(6) 54 lost gospels that have been either found in fragment, in whole, or reconstructed from textual criticism (only a few are hypothetical). They all demonstrates the same basic story. MOST OF THEM FIRST CENTURY!
http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/lostgospel/coptic.htm

Doug:
That does not yet rule out the possibility that the authors intended to write history, and I don't claim that anything rules it out altogether. All things considered, though, I think there is sufficient evidence to establish reasonable doubt.

Meta: you have not given us a reason to even doubt it.

Doug
We can begin by looking at the earliest Christian document that all modern scholars agree was meant by its author to be read as history: Eusebius's Ecclesiastical History, which he finished writing apparently around the year 320. Opinion about his reliability is divided, but as far as we know, nobody before him even tried to get the facts of Christianity's story straight. And we can see why just by reading him. More on that point in a moment.
Meta: that is a huge assertion very much not i evidence. In fact it's contradicted by evidence.

(1) Papias in early second century (we are not totally dependent upon Eusebius for Papias, we have many fragments that don't rely on Eusebius.

(2) Polycarp around same period

(3) 1 Cerement.

(4) material in Paul already mentioned

(5) no reason to doubt Luke's claim that we was using prior attempts and researching.

This Pre Mark layer of Christian Gospel lit which the four Gospels are built upon is extremely important and we know from multiple sources that it existed.


Doug:
It seems to be from Eusebius himself that we get the big bang version of Christianity's origin. The basic story is all there in the first two chapters, obviously based primarily on the canonical gospels and Acts but supplemented with material from other sources. Some of those other sources are documents that he has read, but he often is clearly relying solely on stories he has heard from people he sees no need to identify. He introduces several factoids with no more attribution than "they say," "it is said," "tradition says," or some equivalent.

Meta:  Here we have a major problem for Doug's view. I have just demonstrated that this statement is not true. More importantly  not only is there a lot of material confirming historicity before Mark, way before Eusebius, not only can one put together the whole story as we know it from Pre Eusibian sources, outside the canonical Gospels But there is only one story. We that story repeated over and over again thorough hundreds of documents and it never never never changes.

The important point about it never changing is that myths do change. There are multiple versions of mot myths, but only one of the Gospel story, way up into the late third century that's the fist time we see even derivations from, excluding micro stuff, but even then the departure assume the original story.

The most important thing about this is that the backing material not only agrees with the orthodoxy but it also is produced by groups that scholars think of as enemies of the Orthodox. So that blows the theory that the historical outline is only coming form the Orthodox sources. Every single one of those  54 lost Gospels, as near as can be discerned, portray the same figure the same plot, same side kicks and so on. The same basic facts, here is a list of several off the top of my head tha tare aways consistant. there are no exceptions. there is no text that has his mother named Delores, no text has his major side kick named "Fred." It's always Mary his mother, Peter is top assistant, and so on. He's always from Nazareth, he's always crucified, never stoned, never stabbed, even when they say "hung" they mean crucified. It's always at 12 noon that he was crucified. He was always risen on the third day. this is multiplied by 54 Gospels and a hundreds of other Manuscripts.


1) Jesus lived on earth as a man from the beginning of the first century to AD 33.

2) That his mother was supposed to be a Virgin named "Mary"

3) Same principle players, Peter, Andrew, Philip, John, Mary Magdeline.

4) That Jesus was knows as a miracles worker.

5) he claimed to be the son of God and Messiah.

6) he was crucified under Pilate.

7) Around the time of the Passover.

8) at noon.

9) rose from the dead leaving an empty tomb.

10) several woman with MM discovered the empty tomb.

11) That this was in Jerusalem.


http://www.doxa.ws/Jesus_pages/versions.html

if it was a myth it would have multiple versions because Myths always do. The only reason it would have all one version that is never significantly altered is because everything knew the historical parts of it.


Doug:

The Ecclesiastical History was written mostly if not entirely after the conversion of Emperor Constantine. The Roman version of Christianity, with which Eusebius was aligned, was calling the shots now: from this time forward, orthodoxy was whatever the church in Rome said it was. And according to the church in Rome, its authority was derived from the apostles' authority. More than once in his history, Eusebius identifies orthodox belief with apostolic belief -- not "Jesus said X" but "the apostles taught X." Christians are supposed to believe whatever the apostles believed, but if you then want to know what the apostles believed, you have to ask the church in Rome.

Meta: Most of the outline of the story can be demonstrated from pre Eusebian sources.

Doug:
I'm not suggesting that Eusebius or any other Christian of the time was indifferent to Jesus' actual words, but he was clearly of the opinion that those words had to be understood as the authorities of the orthodox church said they were to be understood, because the authorities claimed that they, and they alone, understood Jesus' words the same way the apostles understood them. Orthodox Christianity, then, was all about the preservation of apostolic teaching (or rather, what the orthodox church believed the apostolic teaching to have been).
 Meta: this is just modern people trying to grapple with ancinet concepts of tradition.


Doug
Heresy, according to Eusebius, was no big thing as long as the apostles were still around to keep everyone in line. Simon Magus was one apparent exception, but by and large everyone was singing from the same hymnal up until the last of the apostles died off, and then it all started to come apart. Heresies sprang up right and left and the defenders of orthodoxy were obliged to battle them constantly. But, in due course,
Meta: that cannot be used as an excuse to push non-historicity. Eusebius never said anything about lying for the cause or any of that stuff. He was a find historian. That is demonstrtaed here.

Doug
. . . the splendor of the catholic and only true Church, which is always the same, grew in magnitude and power, and reflected its piety and simplicity and freedom, and the modesty and purity of its inspired life and philosophy to every nation both of Greeks and of Barbarians. At the same time the slanderous accusations which had been brought against the whole Church also vanished, and there remained our teaching alone, which has prevailed over all, and which is acknowledged to be superior to all in dignity and temperance, and in divine and philosophical doctrines. (Ecclesiastical History, 4.7.13-14.)

 Meta: he was Containtine's PR man. But this is just one camp calling the other "ideological." Here we see the cold war, communist and anti-communist, played out again only with atheists and Theists. That's not historical proof of anything, it's one camp saying "don't let their camp feel good about itself."

 Doug:
And so the doctrinal wars did end. Eusebius got that part right. But the story doesn't seem to have begun the way he said it began. Paul himself complained about how many people were preaching gospels other than his own, and several modern scholars he had good reason to complain. According to Bart Ehrman, there was a multitude of sects calling themselves Christian "as far back in fact as our earliest sources go" (The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture, p. 11), and we have no clear evidence that any one of them had a better claim than the others to be the real thing. A list of scholars whose research provides data supporting Ehrman's position would include F.C. Baur, Walter Bauer, Walter Schmithals, James M. Robinson, Helmut Koester, J.D.G. Dunn, Robert K. Price, and Burton Mack.
Meta: The pretense that this has anything to do with the writing of the Gospels must be shattered with the fact that the communicates that produce them did their work centuries before this. To pretend that the Gospels weren't written until Eusebius fly in the face of all scholarship, believing and other wise. There are no atheist scholars who agree with him who have expertise in the field (Yes, there are atheist Bible scholars, Elaine Pagles is one).

If Doug is not saying this then the point about Euseibus is moot because the story was set in stone by the end of the first century.

Doug:

Most conveniently for the sect that eventually triumphed, its founders seem to have had an aversion to writing. Here is how Eusebius himself tells it:
Those great and truly divine men, I mean the apostles of Christ, were purified in their life, and were adorned with every virtue of the soul, but were uncultivated in speech. They were confident indeed in their trust in the divine and wonder-working power which was granted unto them by the Saviour, but they did not know how, nor did they attempt to proclaim the doctrines of their teacher in studied and artistic language . . . paying little attention to the composition of written works. . . .

And the rest of the followers of our Saviour, the twelve apostles, the seventy disciples, and countless others besides, were not ignorant of these things. Nevertheless, of all the disciples of the Lord, only Matthew and John have left us written memorials, and they, tradition says, were led to write only under the pressure of necessity. (Ecclesiastical History, III.24.3, 5.)
 Meta: actually this is in harmony with the Gospels, they were supposed to be fishermen and other working class people. The early Bishops were from the slave classes. But this is just ignoring the facts, who wrote those 54 Gospels? They are also ignoring what we know about the production of Gospels. They were produced by communities not by individuals. that means there were a lot of communities in the early days. They all agree on the same basic story remember.


Doug:As for how he came to know any of this, Eusebius offers not a clue.


 Meta: wrong again. he claims to have had books and researched it in books. He claims to have had the whole of Papias writing, and what he says harmonizes with the independent fragments that we have.

 Doug

So far as we can tell, it was just the only explanation he could conjure up that seemed plausible to him. It is interesting, too, that in this passage, he says that only two of the "twelve apostles . . . and countless others" who knew Jesus ever wrote anything about him, although elsewhere in his history he endorses the authority of I Peter. Maybe he noticed that whoever wrote it didn't give any indication of having known Jesus. Whatever . . . .
Meta: (1) he means Gospels, not epistles.

(2) Dont' forget the 54 lost Gospls and thier agreement. So Eusebius did not have all the facts. He didn't all have all the materiel. Probably those where not written by eye witnesses, but it is an artifact that documents the fact the one story was known to be histoircal.
(3) He sticks in the quip that the Gospels give no indication of knowing Jesus that assertion demosntaes a lot of knoweldge about ancinet world literature. When we read about people they do't go I knew this guy I knew just what he looked like and there I was right beside him." They didn't write in first person a lot.
(4) Doug is contradicted (as am I) by Gpete because it has a first person section.
(5) the lack of indication that they knew him is an ancient world form of writing bu it also has something to do with the Gospels being produced by a community not just one guy.

Doug:
Of course, as everyone in this forum knows, by Eusebius's time there were lots of gospels and other writings floating around that lots of people believed had been written by one or another apostle besides Matthew or John. But, by his time, the church's consensus was against the authenticity of those documents. Now, Eusebius reports the consensus, but he doesn't explain how it was reached or, more to our point, on what factual evidence it was based. What did the church authorities actually know for a fact about any of those documents? In particular, what did they know about the provenance of the canonical documents?
Meta: Even the gospels he mentions don't disagree with the basic facts.they agree with points I mention above. Notice Doug doesn't present any evidence of other Gospels. he mentions them but which one's? when were they produced? Most of the 54 I name were first century.

Doug

They knew nothing that Eusebius didn't know, and Eusebius didn't know anything, so far as we can tell, beyond what he had read in Irenaeus. All we get in turn from Irenaeus is the four names that have come down to us. For Luke and John he cites no source at all and for Matthew and Mark we get the Papias story. And what do we know about Papias's sources? What he tells us is that he knew some men who told him that they had known some of the apostles.
Meta: Totally false assumption, Eusebius claims to have a lot more sources that just that one. Apparently my friend Doug has never read Irenaeus becasue he says a lot more than the four names. He talks about Polycarp and how he knew him personally and how Polycarp told him that he knew John.

quoting myself from Doxa, and refering to sources I've read:

According to Iranaeus Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna (Martyred in AD 155?) knew the Apostle John. This doesn't seem likely and has been denounced by the great Church historian B.H. Streeter (The Primitive Church ,1923) and others. The date of Ploycarp's Martyrdom is fixed by W.A. Waddington (see Richardson, Early Christian Fathers, p.144). The tradition recorded in the Martyrdom of Polycarp says that he was 86 years old when he went to his glory as a martyr. This would place his birth in the year 69 AD. Assuming he was a teenager (and he was supposed to be very young) when he knew John, this would place their friendship around the late 80s. Is it possible that John lived this long? Clearly legend has it that John lived to be over 100, returned from Patois and worked in the church of Ephesus. But those legends are probably diriven by the statements in the Gospel which imply that John would not die or wouldbe very old when he did die. If Johannie authorship holds up, and John was in Ephesus in 90 to write his Gospel, than it is possible that he knew Polycarp. The information that these two men did know each other comes through Iraneaeus who did know Polycarp.
from fragments of the lost work of Iraneaeus. Speaking of what Polycarp  told him:

also how he would speak of his familiar intercourse with John, and with the rest of those who had seen the Lord; and how he would call their words to remembrance. Whatsoever things he had heard from them respecting the Lord, both with regard to His miracles and His teaching, Polycarp having thus received [information] from the eyewitnesses of the Word of life, would recount them all in harmony with the Scriptures. (documented by Calvin college)
http://www.doxa.ws/Jesus_pages/Histjesus2.html#Polycorp
Doug:
Well, isn't that enough? Sure it is, if you presuppose that the orthodox church leadership was more or less infallible throughout the first few centuries of its existence, which seems to be about what Eusebius thought. Only heretics can be wrong, and Irenaeus hated heretics, so whatever he said had to be the truth. If he said he believed Papias, then by golly we'd better believe Papias, too. And if he said the Acts of the Apostles was written by a good buddy of Paul's, then a good buddy of Paul's had to be the guy who really wrote it.
Meta: We know Papias lived close to the last generation of witnesses and knew several of them. He says so himself. We have several fragments. that does not just come form Eusebius but the fragments prove he did have extensive writings. Iraneaeus tells us Papias and Polycarp studied together and both knew John. fragments:

http://www.doxa.ws/Jesus_pages/Histjesus2.html#Papias
fragments:

http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/synopt/ext/papias.htm

Papias talks about the authorship of the Gospels. It doesn't just come from Eusebius, they are assuming that Eusebius is lying. No reason to assume that.

Doug

We ourselves know practically nothing about Papias besides his name.
Meta: wrong, I just demonstrated it's wrong. we know form fragments of his writings and from Iraneaus

 Doug
He is not mentioned by anyone who could have been a contemporary of his, and we get very little from later writers who had heard anything about him.


 Meta: Iraneaeus was, he was contemporary with Polycap who was contemporay with Papias, although Ira was younger.


Doug:

He was apparently a bishop of Hierapolis, wrote a five-volume work called something like Interpretations of the Sayings of the Lord, and died sometime around 130 CE. Irenaeus believed, for reasons he does not state, that Papias was "a hearer of John, and companion of Polycarp" (Adversus Haereses, V.33.4). Nothing from his work survives except a handful of quotations in Irenaeus and Eusebius.

 Meta: wrong I've already given the link we do have fragments

here they are again:

http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/synopt/ext/papias.htm

Doug
So far as we can tell from those quotations, he never actually saw either of those two books that he was told Matthew and Mark had written. We may infer from those quotations that he although he claimed to know someone known as Presbyter John, this was not likely to have been the apostle called John. His only unambiguous testimony is that he had some occasions to talk with some men who claimed to have known some apostles.
Meta: doesn't have to be Apostle John, as he tells us Elder John was also a witness to Jesus life (and I beieve he was actually the final redactor of GJohn and the author of 1-3 John). Buckingham also thinks so too.

Doug
Speaking of Polycarp, though . . . . We're to believe that he knew the apostle John, because Irenaeus said so. Funny thing is, though, we don't have Polycarp's own word for that. Some of his writings survive, but he doesn't say anything in them about having met John. 

 Meta: We have letters written when he was on his way to die and to be killed in the area. So of course he was thinking of what to say to the churches he was passing through. Not conducive to reminiscing.  Why is Iraneaeus word not good enough? He tells us Polycarp told him directly, why should we believe he's lying? Because it's too unthinkable to believe him?

We don't have a version of the Damascus road incident written by Paul. He wrote all those letters and never mentioned it once. But no scholar questions that Luke made it up. don't look now but you are arguing from silence.

Doug
Of course, we wouldn't expect him to mention that in everything he wrote, and we know he wrote some other stuff that did not survive. Now, it is surely reasonable to think that he if he had met one of the original 12 apostles, he would have said so in at least one of his writings. But if he did, how come that document was not preserved? It surely would have been widely circulated and copied many times. And even if all those copies had somehow perished, surely somebody would have mentioned having read the document. The extant literature is filled with references to documents that we no longer have, but there is not a single comment about anything Polycarp wrote about his acquaintance with John. That is highly improbable on the assumption that there ever was such a meeting.
Meta: Be nice if Churchill wrote about what FDR was really like, but he didn't. Does that mean Churchill never met FDR?


Doug
Irenaeus makes his claim about Polycarp's acquaintance with John in Adversus Haereses (III.3.4), which he wrote at around the age of 50. He tells of meeting Polycarp during his "early youth," presumably meaning late adolescence, certainly not after his early 20s. It's a pretty impressionable time of anyone's life, and Polycarp would have been, as Irenaeus says he was, very old by that time. So here is Irenaeus, himself approaching old age, recalling a conversation he had during his early youth with an old man reminiscing about his younger years. That is a mighty tenuous basis on which to pin a fact that we should expect to be, but is not, otherwise corroborated.

Meta: I've already linked to the source above. He tells us about it in a last fragment. Not Against Hereies although he did mention it there. In the other work he talks about Polycarp actually telling him about John. He is saying that he studied with him on an extended basis. He knew him well.

I still remember my next door neighbor who was 80 tell me when I was six about his exploits in WWI. I know I got them right because as man I discussed it with his wife. She was many years younger than he was and she lived to be 100.


Doug
That leaves us with no direct contact between the writer of any extant Christian document and any of Jesus' apostles -- no actual witness to the existence of a single person who is supposed to have known Jesus in person. 
 Meta Assertion contradicted by the facts. Not only did I disprove yoru point about Papias and Polycarp but it goes well beyond them as you will see next time.


 Doug
Someone will ask: But what about Paul? He testifies to having met three of Jesus' disciples: Cephas (Peter), James, and John. Yes, he says he knew three men who had those names -- but he does not corroborate their discipleship. Paul never says that any man he ever met was ever personally acquainted with Jesus of Nazareth during Jesus' lifetime. We have to go to the gospels to make that connection.
Meta: that old ploy! I am very disappointed. Notice how overtime, EVERY SINGLE TIME the Myther ideology is disproved by facts or by scholars they remove the counter evidence by trying to deny the method. They don't want to hear from scholars, tehy refuse to accept scinecetific textual criticism and when directly contradicted, well just ddoubt that taha's who they wer. O fcourse!


maybe Paul in Luke is total different guy. maybe Paul in Corinth is a totally different Paul than Paul in Rome? sure any time my view is disproved the counter evidence goes by-by because it's about a different guy. How rational is it to doubt that? How many leaders of the chruch between 33 and 64 were likely to be named Peter, James, John? Those were common names but we know the guys talked about in the Gospels would be leaders and they should have been around at that time. What are the reasons for thinking they aren't the same? Certainly Clement implies that Peter was the same Peter. why think otherwise? Papis doesn't mention two Peters. Clearly Josephus says that James the brother of Jesus was the leader of the chruch. How many James the brother of Jesus would have been head of the chruch at that time, when the actual relatives were still around to be leaders?

Doug
And so we have no reason except 1800 years of church dogma to think the gospels record any thing factual about Jesus of Nazareth.
Meta: While I admire my friend's intelligence and applaud his reasoning  I must say his concept of historical presumption is a bit lacking. He has given us no reason to doubt anything. His evidence has to be really first rate to over turn history. Historical presumption is Historical fact! What histoirans assume as fact he wants to throw out on nothing stronger than the supposition that Maybe MAYBE it was a different Peter, MAYBE but he cant' even give us a good reason to think so.

 Doug
There is not a single uncontested fact contradicting the supposition that they are works of pure fiction. There is no undisputed evidence that the authors, whoever they were, had access to any primary source about Jesus, nor even any good evidence that they were likely to have used any secondary sources. For the uncontested evidence that we have in hand, the most parsimonious explanation is that, no matter when they might have been written, the gospels' existence was practically unknown to the Christian community at large before the middle of the second century, by which time nobody had any idea who the authors actually were. They came to be regarded as authoritative within one of the numerous Christian sects that existed at that time for one reason alone: They supported that sect's teachings. How the authors' names were chosen is anybody's guess, but then whoever picked them was just guessing, too. All it took to make the names stick was for someone in authority to endorse them, and that someone happened to be Irenaeus.
Meta:



This is not an argument against Jesus' historicity, because under this scenario his historicity is irrelevant. Even assuming that the man existed, we have no good reason to suppose the gospel authors intended to write a true story about him, any more than Shakespeare was trying to write a true story about Macbeth -- or, perhaps more analogously, a true story about Caesar's assassination. Caesar actually was assassinated, sure, but it didn't happen like Shakespeare said it happened. And so it was, most likely, with Jesus' execution by Pilate.