Saturday, October 11, 2008

We have seen the enemy...Don't Get Fooled Again!

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I see those McCain supporters getting angry because they are behind, this was on he evening the news the last couple of nights. They are so very angry. Their guy is going to lose and they aren't going to take it any more. I feel for them, bless their little hearts. Their guy stole the election of 2000, the supreme court installed him because certain "irregularities" with the ballot boxes in Florida. He stole the election, he was not the winner of the popular vote nor was the legally elected President. Everyone said "O ok I guess we just have to go along." So for the next eight years he did nothing but spend a trillion dollars ona useless war. Now we know empirically you can't leave an idiot at the top, have him do nothing spend uselessly, and expect any good to come of it. Now his supporters are so very angry becasue they are going to lose a fair election.Well toe nails man. Do you know how many elects I lost, after working my ass of, and I could prove by guy was best, but the people just couldn't see it?

Humphry
McGovern, that's where it start, sophomore year in high school
Mondale
Dukakis (never could spell that name

The first campaign I worked in we lost by the second greatest land slide in history. At the beginning of the election everyone at school was saying "McGovern is a flake, Nixon is cool, he went to Russia and China and he's ending the war, he's great!"I would bring up Watergate and they would say "O that's nothing, that wont come to anything. Both parties do that kind of thing all the time. A year latter, most of those people (the one's a school, not counting the huge mass of people I talked to canvasing neighborhoods) came to me and said "you were right! Nixon sux, we get to get him impeached!" Thanks! After I worked my ass off, lost by a huge and humiliating land slide, got told you it didn't matter, now you see it."


The reason McCain's supporters are so angry is because he hasn't the guts to tell them the real reason for the "downturn" (you know, aka "great depression II"). He is trying to tell them that it's the Democrat's fault. The Dems are to blame because they do "tax and spend" and they spend your tax money on stuff (like keeping people from dying) but if they would throw your money down a rat hole and get your son killed they would be fine! People actually believe this shit becasue there has always been a myth in America that defense dollars are magic. We can spend a Trillion dollars on a useless war and it's good for the economy! I actually met someone at the supermarket the other day (that store is now out of business) and she said "but war is so good for the economy." That applied to WWII where the whole economy is geared to it. But try to run prosperous economy based upon economic growth int he private specter, spend as much on a useless war as our entire GNP my senior year of high school (and as a high school debater debating an employment topic I know what the GNP was that year) cut taxes for the upper class, start a second war on a front half way around the world, let your housing industry fall through the floor because you allow greed and corruption to rampant, and see how good it is for the economy.Seriously, I don't see how anyone with even the slightest understanding of economics could not see the role the useless war has played in this debacle. What's even more amazing, we bought into a lie to get into it!

As a college debater I was on a squad (University of Texas at Arlington) which in that day had one of the best researchers in the country (they don't even have debate there now). Brain Spitzberg was the finest researcher, and when our guys hit major schools like Harvard and Georgetown, we were not hurting for evidence. Spits (as we called him) did a case on competitive bidding on all DOD contracts (Presidential Powers topic for you NDT fans out there). He showed conclusively that every dollar spent in the private sector by government is five times more productive than defense spending. This applies to public works. If the government spends a million bucks on paving streets or filling pot holes its five times more productive than if they use that money to build a bomber or some military weaponry. Every dollar spend by the government in public sector generates five times as much in the private sector. In other words, you have to buy concrete or whatever to pave roads, you stimulated the economy in that sector; someone sells the concrete. Weapons for defense eventually do inspire spending in private industry for products, but only years later. It's much more productive (like 14 times) to spend it in space. These are based upon 1974 figures. I'm sure they are out of date. But the principles are still the same. You build an arsenal it sits around until you have to kill people. Then you have to spend a lot of money fixing up your guys who the other side is killing. You are not stimulating any economic growth except more unproductive defense spending.

Who would not realize that the effect of doing this military thing while you already having a bad housing crisis the your housing industry is going down the tubes, would have a totally deleterious effect? Housing has always been a major economic indicator. This has always been the case, it was in high school debate lo those many years ago, and it is now. Only an idiot would think O foreclosures are up 300% its all just business as usual, capitalism will cure all ills. I would expect that moron Bush to think that. He's the one who said the crooks who stole my house were victims of my laziness (he said all those who lost homes did so because they were lazy and didn't work enough to pay for them). But I would expect more from McCain. He did nothing when the housing crisis first became alarming last year. Not only did he do nothing but he backed the same business as usual kind of thinking. I could forgive that, but to see him perform in the debates, he actually harped on the garbage bull shit idea that it was the democrats fault for "tax and spend." O shades of Ronnie! Reagan raises his ugly head and visits the American electorate from the grave, "well,... I just have to sucker you one more time." That was a schlock move when Ron did it to us. He did sucker us. It was not true then, he just pandered to American's desire to pay less taxes, and gave greed a foot in the door on the electoral decision making and counted upon people's lack of interest to blind them to empriical research (which we can always count upon for the vast majority of Americans). That was bad. Those were bad old days for me politically. They got their big big victory, now they whine because the chickens have come home to roost.

To see McCain pulling that crap, expecting people to fall in line like they did for Ronnie, when I expected him to know better, I will never fall for his crap again. Don't get me wrong, I was not going to vote for him. I was never interested in supporting him. But I did respect. I say "did." Combine that with the last ditch desperation move that put Palin on the ticket...someone barely qualified to run three small towns with a bunch of land between them, someone whose idea of diplomacy is looking at the coast of another country. Is it any wonder Obama is 10% ahead in the polls now? I am mad at Obama. He has not had the guts to say in the debates "It's the useless war stupid!" But least he's worth voting for.

So my heart does not go out to those angered by Obama's lead. It's my turn to gloat. I just feat there wont be much gloating as we all die in the gutter together.

O well I don't care if I die in the gutter as long as those crooks who stole my house go down with me.

Tuesday, October 07, 2008

Atheists say the Darndest Things

21 Hours Ago #23
SofaKing
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metacrock View Post
No aspect of my theology is contradicted by science.


As a non-scientist, you are not qualified to make such a statement. Have you ever even taken a college physics course?


Of course this guy is not a scientist, but he claims to have masters in scientific subject so he deludes himself into thinking he is a scientist.



My response


Old 7 Hours Ago #25
SofaKing
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metacrock View Post
that's ridiculous. as a non Ph.D. candidate who has never study philosophy of science you are not qualified to critique my arguments or judge my knowledge.

you are guilty of the transgression of which C. Write Mills warned. creating a priesthood of knowledge out of science.


His response


Nope. Sorry, there is no way that you could know that your fantasy jives with all scientific theories if you don't even know the undergraduate-level theories. In fact, if you did know science, you would know that many scientific theories are contradicted by other scientific theories. For example, quantum mechanics and the general theory of relativity are not compatible under certain situations.The only way your theology is going to be compatible with all scientific theories is if it was scientifically meaningless deism, which yours is clearly not.



I did not say it's compatible with all theories. I said is not constradicted by scientific fact. you can't say that for your views.


Old 3 Hours Ago #19
alexhanson
Member

It is true, while I am patient with ignorance, I hate it when people blindly cling to it as you do. You lose logic at the final step of your argument and make a faith statement.
The footprints only show that someone made them. You cannot say that it was an invisible man, you cannot say that you know who made them.
But that's with footprints. With god, there aren't even footprints. You are suggesting that natural occurrences are really caused by god. You cannot prove this, all you can prove is that people believe/think that god causes them and that is normative (normal) for them to do so. ITS NOT PROOF OF GOD. Follow your logic all the way through. Its intellectually dishonest to use logic for most of your argument and then try to say that it proves your faith claim. Your critical thinking skills are severely lacking.




Sofaking again:

http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showthread.php?p=3627613#poststop
Sorry. I meant to say that natural philosophy was the precursor of modern science. They are not exactly the same.

"Modern notions of science and scientists date only to the 19th century (Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary dates the origin of the word "scientist" to 1834)." -- wikipedia


this is really odd because the attributes the quote to Webster's then to Wilipedia.
Why would you think Newton is not part of modern science? Wasn't modern science based upon Newtonian laws until the middle of the twentieth century (it stil is really).

Sofaking again (same post):


As far as I know, science is the only domain that's worth my consideration. You have not given me any reason to think otherwise.


after that astounding pronouncement he says:

Ha! Atheism is far from an ideology. Is your non-belief in Apollo an ideology? Don't be ridiculous.


Is that a scientific question?


I made an analogy about religious experince that involved the idea of finding the invisible man's tracks in the snow. We can't see the man but we can see where he's been. So this guy "alexhansen" says "How do you know he's invisible?" He continues to quibble about that analogy for a whole thread, doing post after post on it until he says:

http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showthread.php?p=3642284#post3642284
Meta, that is my point. Your analogy relies on invisible men, which don't actually exist. If we transfer the analogy to 'reality' the invisible men = God (which also doesn't exist). I doubt that this was the result you were looking to accomplish.
Your analogy doesn't work to make your point since invisible men do not exist and because of this, it shows that there are better, more rational and natural explanations for the 'trace'.


In other words he think an analogy is an argument intended to prove something.

Saturday, October 04, 2008

Science is a Social Construct

Before Summarizing Kuhn, a couple of basic things need explaining. Many people have trouble understanding what a "cultural construct" actually is. The best example I've heard is a very simple one. I once heard a professor givnig a talk. She said that at a restaurant where she once ate, the rest room doors did nt say "Men" or "Women." They said nothing to indicate which was which, all they had was a picture of a crab and picture of a butterfly. Yet, no one ever went in the wrong door? How is it that everyone just automatically understood that crabs are masculine and butterfly are famine? There is no particular reason to think of crabs as masculine, or butterfly's as feminine, except that they each fit the general "feel" for what we think those words indicate; the crab is hard and tough and stuborn, the butterfly is soft and floats along in beauty. These trigger chains of cultural references that give us an indication without having to be told. That's because they trigger cultural references.

A Cultural Construct, then, is a reference based upon culturally appropriated symbols and signs which is nested in a complex set of ideas, and which is given completely through cultural assimilation, not through genetics or instinct. Cultural constructs are idas about the the world, or about feelings, or about the way we look at things, that are given by culture and that change from culture to culture.

Science Not Cumulative Progress

Because the "cultural constructivist school" has said that science is a social or cultural construct (really the same thing) this has been understood to mean that "science is wrong," or "science doesn't work." He is not saying that Science doesn't work, but he is saying that science is not cumulative progress. The old image of the scientist faithfully stacking one fact upon another, facts patiently gathered from totally objective and therefore totally true observations, is old hat and has to be replaced. Sorry to break the news to the reductionists, but the concept of "progress" is, itself, a cultural construct. There is nothing in nature called "progress." That is a Western notion that comes to us through philosophy and is not strictly speaking, a scientific term. Scientists don't record in their experimental observations "I found the progress in my subject matter." Progress is social and cultural, and it is a relative notion. When we decide e are making progress it is always at the expense of someone elses notion of progress.

Due to the nature of paradigm shifts, science does not stack up facts one upon another until x amount of progress is achieved. Science regularly wipes the slate clean and starts over on new paradigms and each new bust of "progress" has to be judged relative to many factors, such as it's social effects.

Summary of Kuhn

Kuhn theorizes that scientific revolutions develop cognitively through the acquisition and refinement of paradigms (vi). Scientific disciplines, in their early stages, struggle to unify themselves around a single paradigm, such as the mechanical model of the universe. Once having achieved a single paradigm, however, the discipline orients its professional growth, theoretical study, and research priorities around the preservation of the paradigm. Contradictions to the paradigm (anomalies), are treated as puzzles to be solved, and are absorbed into the paradigm. It is only when the discipline fails to solve certain anomalies over time that a sense of crisis emerges, new theories are proposed, and a new paradigm is accepted. This development marks the nature of scientific "revolutions."

Kuhn developed this theory as an alternative to the former historiographical model, the major inadequacy of which was its tendency to view scientific development as a series of obstacles overcome by the accumulation of knowledge, bit by bit, in the face of error and superstition (2). Kuhn interjected an anthropological method into the history of science, but, in using the notion of a "paradigm" he drew upon Piaget's theory of cognitive childhood development (vi).Kuhn first constructs a description of "normal science," "research firmly based upon one or more past scientific achievements...that some particular scientific community acknowledges for a time as supplying the foundation for its further practice" (10).

The Nature of Paradigms

Scientific achievements constitute a paradigm when they meet two criteria:

1) they must be solid and foundational enough to draw researchers away from other models and other approaches;

2) they must be open-ended enough to allow for further problem solving to continue;

in this way, paradigms guide research priorities and dictate a set of shared rules within the scientific community (10). Kuhn likens the development of a paradigm to a judicial decision in common law, it is always open to further elaboration (23). The procedure of "normal science," then, amounts to what he calls a "mopping up operation," or attempts at fine tuning (24).

Meanwhile, the discipline itself grows up around the paradigm. Research priorities are set, new instruments are developed with the paradigm in mind, and the discipline incorporates or weeds out that which does not lend itself to the needs of the paradigm. This process entails what Kuhn calls "paradigm based research" (25), fact-gathering operations, experiments and observations, based upon the accepted facts of the paradigm, oriented around prediction according to the paradigm (27). This fact-oriented nature of paradigm based research constitutes the procedures of "normal" scientific activity. That is to say, after the establishment of a paradigm, "normal science" consists of the attempt o "mop-up" or solve puzzles, to make the anomalies fit the paradigm (35). Anomalies are not treated as "counter instances," that is, they do not count against the paradigm, but are treated as mere "puzzles," to be solved through further research. Only a solution within the paradigm is treated as "scientific," only that which is in accord with the paradigm is presented as a real scientific question worthy of research, all else is "metaphysics" (37).

In chapters VI through VIII Kuhn elaborates upon the assumptions of the community with regard to paradigm-based research. Chapter six deals with discoveries in particular. Discoveries are made all the time, but it is only when they help to elucidate the paradigm that they are regarded as significant. Paradigm shift results from discovery when anomalies cannot be incorporated into the paradigm, and further elaboration of fact is required. Until that time, a discovery is not a "scientific fact" (53). In other words, data contrary to the expected outcome is not, a priori, a discovery, a fact, or anything but a mishap, until it is either solved as a puzzle within the paradigm, or the paradigm itself is replaced with a new paradigm. In order to demonstrate this point, Kuhn details the historical problems involved in the "discovery" of oxygen.

Three different researchers claimed to have discovered oxygen at different points in time: Scheele, Priestly, Lavoisier. Each found some aspects of oxygen, but no one researcher can be said to have discovered oxygen on a given day (although all three were working in the 1770s) (54).The point Kuhn is making is that discovery is cumulative process of conceptual assimilation against the background of the paradigm (55). But, the actual paradigm shift is not cumulative, it does not just happen after a certain number of new findings pile up. Scientists do not simply record data, and the data does not simply happen to include new discoveries; discoveries are anomalies, and thus, they are only truly known as "discoveries" in retrospect, in relation to the new paradigm (56). Priestly and Lavoisier had basically the same results in discovering oxygen, only Lavoisier was able to fully see what had happened in producing oxygen. The major point is that paradigms constitute the scientific world, and the shift from one paradigm to another is a shift, for the researcher, from one world to another. Rigid acceptance and enforcement of the rules is essential, even to the exclusion of new theories. This is not necessarily norrow-minded professional "climate of opinion," but a necessary means of guiding research priorities. It is only against the background of the paradigm that anomaly is known.The more precise the paradigm, the greater the ability to find anomaly, and fewer are the distractions for researchers (65).

Anomalies

Chapters VII and VIII are pivotal chapters because they set up the notion of crisis and allow Kuhn to prepare to talk about revolutions in science. It is through crisis that new paradigms emerge, when old paradigms fail to solve the growing anomalies. At this point, even though Kuhn does not state it in this manner, one can see a developmental process, or stages of cognitive formation; from discovery, to theory, to paradigms (67). Anomalies don't just pile up until one day a new paradigm emerges, they are incorporated into the existing paradigm, or dismissed as an unscientific, but over time, a sense of crisis emerges when the paradigm fails consistently to solve a "puzzle," or a type of problem. Eventually, new theories emerge from a sense of crisis and a new paradigm is substituted for the old. a classic example is astronomy. The Ptolemaic system lasted for a long time without crisis because it was reasonable, and it satisfied astronomers. Over time, however, problems solved in one area were often found to show up in another, until it was observed that the complexity of the system was growing much faster than its ability to accurately disclose information about the heavens. Eventually, the Copernican system was offered in its place (68-69).

Dilemma in Nature of Science>

There is a dilemma in the nature of science itself. On the one hand, counter-instances cannot be seen as counting against the paradigm, because they are always turning up, and the paradigm is essential as the basis for shared rules of the community of science. On the other hand, a paradigm without anomalies (counter-instances) fails to produce research questions and ceases to be an important area of scientific work (79). There is, therefore, a tension between anomaly and paradigm, which must be preserved. "Tension" may be a good description because counter-instances must arise, but they cannot count against the paradigm, not until a new paradigm is ready to replace the old one. This is a crucial concept because it constitutes the nature of a scientific revolution (90).

Scientific Revolutions: Paradigm Shifts

In chapters IX and X Kuhn discusses scientific revolutions. Kuhn compares scientific revolutions to political revolutions in two important ways:

1) both grow out of a sense of crisis,

and galvanize themselves when segments of the community come to feel that existing institutions no longer function to resolve the problems which they are expected to solve;

2) revolutions "aim to change institutions in ways that the institutions themselves prohibit" (93).

The choice between paradigms is a choice between "incompatible modes of community life" (94). The clash of paradigms entails a circular debate, in which one must enter the inner logic of the new paradigm in order to understand the nature of it, but no reason can be given from outside the paradigm why the opponent should enter the circle. Each paradigm is used to argue in its own defense (94). In order to settle a paradigm debate, one must go outside the normal course of science. Kuhn argues that paradigm debates are like debates about values, they can only be settled through a system of value, not of fact (110). In the case of science, the value would be that which is placed upon answers to certain questions, those which demand new paradigms, those that are solved by the old.

Moreover, paradigms are even more fundamental than values because they constitute the world of our understanding. A paradigm shift is a world view shift (111).In Chapter XI Kuhn takes up a discussion of textbooks. Scientific textbooks are written from the perspective of the current paradigm and orient the student to an interpretation of the world and the discipline based upon the current paradigm. "More than any other single aspect of science, that pedagogic form has determined our image of the nature of science..." (143). Kuhn calls this chapter "the invisibility of revolutions." After the revolution, the "new" paradigm is fact, the revolution goes away and its findings become "normal science."In Chapter XII, Kuhn takes up his famous debate with Karl Popper over the nature of scientific verification. Popper believed that there could only be falsification, no phenomenon could be positively verified.

A.Paradigm Shifts

To take up this philosophical position, and then to try and justify it through appeal to its "scientific" nature, is to misunderstand the nature of science itself. Science is not a totally objective endeavor capable of yielding 100% truth Science is a human endeavor and, thus, is limited to human cultural constructs. One of the major culturally constructed positions of science is the notion of the paradigm shift. Science works according to paradigms. One model, the paradigm, explains the nature of the world in a given area. An example of how paradigms have changed is that of the chemical vs. the mechanical model. In the 15th and 16th centuries some thinkers thought that the world worked by chemical correspondence, the laws of alchemy. This notion gave way to the view of the universe as a big machine, and that has been transformed into the view that the universe is like a giant organism. At each stage along the way, the paradigm shifts and the facts of the old paradigm become anomalies under the new. Conversely, observations which were made before the shift which were viewed as merely anomalous (observations which contradict the paradigm) become "facts" under the new. Perhaps the major historian of scientific thought today is Thomas S. Kuhn who worked out the theory of paradigm shifts in The Structure of Scientific Revolutions [University of Chicago Press, 1962].

1) Paradigm not chosen based upon factual data

Kuhn argues that anomalies are normally absorbed into the paradigm and explained way as anomalous. Hence, when supernatural effects happen, and if they cannot be explained by scientific means they are thought of as "unexplained." Scientists do not, and cannot declare them as "miraculous" just because they cannot find a naturalistic explanation. For this reason, paradigm shifts are not the result of passionless rational argument and are not predicated upon "fact" nor can they be. Rather, they are the result of a change in sociological factors. This is so because the system which makes one set of data "facts" as opposed to "unexplained anomalies" is the thing under dispute.

2) Science not cumulative progress


A sense of urgency builds until the paradigm shifts as the old paradigm collapses under the weight of so many anomalies. He uses the analogy of political revolution precisely because of its sense of urgency and disorder. The notion of a urgent need to change, a great struggle fought on other than rational basis is the point of the whole thing. The major conceptual changes which happen in science are not the result of cumulative progress, and are not brought about through disinterested and rational discussion of the facts, and they are not predicated upon "scientific proofs." Granted all of these things are involved, but all they can function as is a regulator concept for the debate. The real change comes through a shift in perception, and thus, it scientific knowledge is not a cumulative endeavor.Thomas S. Kuhn(d. 1995)Kuhn himself tells us:

"scientific revolutions are here taken to be those non-cumulative developmental episodes replaced in whole or in part by a new one..." (Thomas kuhn The Structure of scientific Revolutions, 92). "The choice [between paradigms] is not and cannot be determined merely by the evaluative procedures characteristic of normal science, for these depend in part upon a particular paradigm, and that paradigm is at issue. When paradigms enter as they must into a debate about paradigm choice, their role is necessarily circular. Each group uses it's own paradigm to argue in that paradigm's defense...the status of the circular argument is only that of persuasion. It cannot be made logically or even probabilistically compelling for those who refuse to step into the circle." The Structure of Scientific Revolutions(94)In section X we shall discover how closely the view of science as cumulating is entangled with a dominate epistemology that takes knowledge to be a construction placed directly upon raw sense data by the mind. And in section XI we shall examine the strong support provided to the same historiographic scheme by the techniques of effective science pedagogy. Nevertheless, despite the immense plausibility of that ideal image, there is increasing reason to wonder whether it can possibly be an image of science. After the pre-paradgim period the assimilation of all new theories and of almost all new sorts of phenomena has demanded the destruction of a prior paradigm and a consequent conflict between cometing schools of scientific thought. Cumulative anticipation of unanticipated novelties proves to be an almost nonexistent exception to the rule of scientific development.The man who takes historic fact seriously must suspect that science does not tend toward the ideal that our image of its cumulativeness has suggested. Perhaps it is another sort of enterprise.


Kuhn-- Structure of Scientific Revolutions, 96. Kun was not a Christian. He represents the more rational end of a movement in academia, in some cases very much opposed to Christianity, which was big in the '80s and '90s: Postmodern social constructivism.The cultural constructivists realized that science is just another human endeavor, and as such it is not the essence of "objective fact." Rather, it is assigned a cultural role in our agreed upon definitions of fact.There are precursors to Kuhn among the great 20th century historians of science, who, while they did not say exactly the same thing, and while they did not develop a theory of change of scientific revolutions along the lines of developmental psychology, did observe that science is a social movement, that it develops along certain hap hazard lines which involve development of ideas from detailed work and the inability of former paradigms (though they did not use the term) to withstand repeated contradiction.These are contemporaries. Westfall is still writing as far as I know, and was a contemporary of Kuhn's (both began careers in 50s or early 60s). Collingwood and older contemporary and wrote in the 40's.

Two such thinkers were, R.G. Collingwood: The Idea of Nature. London, NY: Oxford, 1947, and Richard Westfall. The Construction of Modern Science, (Cambridge University Press 1971)Collingwood looks at major eras of scientific advancement beginning with the Greeks.He begins with a description of relation of developments between philosophy and Science which sounds a lot like Khun.

(A.) Paradigm shift.

(B). Three periods when idea of nature gained focuss:

(1) Greeks.

(2) Renaissance

(3) Early modern.

That is where the p. shift comes in, though he doesn't use the phrase. But he says it is not that a detailed and abstract view of nature is worked out as a whole then people take it and go out to do science with it (intro p. 1) nor is it that a period of thought is followed by a period of investigation. But,

"in natural science, as in economics, or morals, or law, people being with details. They begin by taking individual problems as they arise. Only when this detail has accumulated to a considerable amount do they reflect upon the work they have been doing and discover they have been doing it in amethodical way, according to principles of which hither to they have not been conscious...the detailed work seldom goes on for any length of time without reflection intervening. This reflection ...upon the detailed work: for when people become conscious of the principles upon which they have been thinking or acting they become conscious of something which in these thoughts and actions they have trying, though unconciously to do--namely to work out in detail the logical implications of those principles. To strange minds this new consciousness gives a new strength namely new firmness in their approach to the detailed problems."



Richard Westfall, The Construction of Modern Science. (Cambridge University Press 1971).Westfall examines the two major themes which dominated scientific revolution of 17th century. The Platonic-Paithagorian tradition, emphasizing nature and as geometry, cosmos constructed by mathematics, and the Mechanical and Philosophical model: nature as huge machine, sought hidden mechanism to find order. These two major forces represent paradigms essentially and the struggle between these schools resolved itself in argument and in social spheres. The Scientific revolution was social phenomenon. Westfall believes ideas following own internal logic was central element in foundation of modern science. This is essentially one example of a social construct reading of early modern science.



Obvious Objection

The obvious objection that most people make is going to be that scientific facts work. Things fall down instead of up, if you combine an acid with a base you get a certain relation, and mater interacts with mater regardless of what we think out it in our culture. All of these points are very true. But that's not really the point. Kuhn and most of the social constructivists are not disputing the "facts" of science There is an extreme school called the "hard project" that tries to put up epistemological road blocks to all scientific facts, but that's not the point here. The point is the big picture. The major assumptions and biases we make about the world based upon the way we interpret and understand scientific fact; and the use made of that by those who use science to hide their ideological agendas. Based upon cultural assumptions and biases about the reading of scientific fact we assume that there is nothing beyond the material realm, that all is explained by science and there is no need for God. But that is a paradigm and could easily change with changing social situations. The major point of the argument is: there is no scientific basis for concluding that there is no God.

The Social Constructivist Movement:
Evidence of new paradigm shift

Taken together with Kuhn, on face value, these two works form the basis for a cultural analysis of scientific fact-making. Kuhn forms the general theoretical landscape which Shapin and Schaffer help to fill out in greater detail. Neither of these works claims a disruption of the stability found in historical narrative, much less a deconstruction of truth or logic as stable categories. Although, as will be seen, Lukes argues that Kuhn comes dangerously close to doing so (and, one might argue, so do Shapin and Schaffer). Both works require an historical understanding of their subject matter. Both lay bare the process of making scientific fact; it is not a matter of simply discovering how things work, but of manipulating (and being manipulated by) a cultural understanding of how things work. Yet, without a historical understanding, there is no sense to either work. Both are dependent upon conventional understandings of chronology, and upon conventional notions of historical event such that one can say "this is what happened, and this is why." Kuhn's examples wouldn't make sense without the notion that three different people worked on the problem of oxygen throughout the 1770s, and after that time, one of them actually discovered something. Nor would Shapin and Schaffer's notions make sense if one examined the events in textual isolation, with no regard for historical context or event. What would be the point of saying that Hobbes was written out of the history of natural philosophy, if the text is all that mattered? If the text itself is history, the history of natural philosophy never included Hobbes.On the face of it, the claim that chronology is meaningless seems like an absurd idea, yet, there are those within the postmodern and social constructivist camps who make this claim: i.e. Derrida, Baudrillard, Benhabib, and to some extent Foucault (Rosenau, 63).

Moreover, it is more common for the constructivist position in general to find the content of scientific discovery challenged, and to find categories of truth and logic ascribed purely to social agents and cultural understanding rather than any sort of stable, universal categories. "Criteria of truth, or logic, or both, arise out of different contexts and are themselves variable...[they are] relative to particular groups, cultures, communities" (Lukes, 231). "In this view," [postmodern social constructivism] "the whole point of the sociology of scientific knowledge is that there is no such thing as an accurate representation of an external and objective reality" (Fuchs, 11). "Nor do these [skeptical] postmodernists view history as periods of time that unfold with regularity, that can be isolated, abstracted, represented, described in terms of essential characteristics...they reject history as reasoned analysis focused upon the general or the particular because both assume 'reality,' `identity,' and `truth.'" (Rosenau, 63).

Since about 1996 the fortures of Postmodernism have fallen. Almost as soon as Kuhn died major dennounciations of and attacks upon his work began. He was at the summit of fame and fortune int he last two decades of his life, he is now largely forgotten and rejected. Part of this is due to the guilt by association from lumping him in with the more radical Postmodernists. Once the stigma of being "no longer in fashion" wears off, I believe that he will be resurrected and will come to be seen as a great thinker. His theories need revising and re-work, but I'm convinced they hold the key to the best understanding of the nature of science.



What Does This Tell Us?

What Kuhn tells us that is of crucial importance for understanding the relation between science and religious belief, is that sceince is not all knowning. It is not a replacement for religion, it is not an objective means of probing to the depths of the meaning of life or of being human.It is a human activity, it has a relation to social paradigms and is socially constructed. As such it is not a "truth detector." We can discover the workings of the physical world, and that can, at times, correct our misimpressions about the nature of God, but it cannot tell us that God does or does not exist, and it cannot take the place of God.

Sunday, September 28, 2008

The Religous a priori

(1) Scineitifc reductionism loses phenomena by re-defining the nature of sense data and quailia.

(2)There are other ways of Knowing than scinetific induction

(3) Religious truth is apprehended phenomenoloigcally, thus religion is not a scientific issue and cannot be subjected to a materialist critque

(4) Religion is not derived from other disciplines or endeavors but is a approch to understanding in its own right

Therefore, religious belief is justified on its own terms and not according to the dictates or other disciplines


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In my dealings with atheist in debate and dialogue I find that they are often very committed to an empiricist view point. Over and over again I hear the refrain "you can't show one single unequivocal demonstration of scientific data that proves a God exists." This is not a criticism. It's perfectly understandable; science has become the umpire of reality. It is to scientific demonstration that we appear for a large swath of questions concerning the nature of reality. The problem is that the reliance upon empiricism has led to forgetfulness about the basis of other types of questions. We have forgotten that essentially science is metaphysics, as such it is just one of many approach that can be derived from analytical reasoning, empiricism, rationalism, phenomonology and other approaches.


Problem with Empiricism


Is empirical evidence the best or only true form of knowledge? This is an apologetics question because it bears upon the arguments for the existence of God.

Is lack of empirical evidence, if there is a lack, a draw back for God arguments?
I deny that there is a lack, but it has to be put in the proper context. That will come in future threads, for this one I will bracket that answer and just assume there no really good empirical evidence (even though I think there is).

I will ague that empiricism is not true source of knowledge by itself and logic is more important.

True empirical evidence in a philosophical sense means exact first hand observation. In science it doesn't really mean that, it implies a more truncated process. Consider this, we drop two balls of different size from a tower. Do they fall the same rate or the bigger one falls faster? They are supposed to fall at the same rate, right? To say we have empirical proof, in the litteral sense of the term we would have to observe every single time two balls are dropped for asl ong as the tower exists. We would have to sit for thousnds of years and observe millions of drops and then we couldn't say it was truely empirical because we might have missed one.

That's impractical for science so we cheat with inductive reasoning. We make assumptions of probability. We say we observed this 40,000 times, that's a tight correlation, so we will assume there is a regularity in the universe that causes it to work this way every time. We make a statistical correlation. Like the surgeon general saying that smoking causes cancer. The tobacco companies were really right, they read their Hume, there was no observation fo cause and effect, because we never observe cause and effect. But the correlation was so tight we assume cause and effect.

The ultimate example is Hume's billiard balls. Hume says we do not see the cause of the ball being made to move, we only really see one ball stop and the other start. But this happens every time we watch, so we assume that the tight corrolation gives us causality.

The naturalistic metaphysician assumes that all of nature works this way. A tight correlation is as good as a cause. So when we observe only naturalistic causes we can assume there is nothing beyond naturalism. The problem is many phenomena can fall between the cracks. One might go one's whole life never seeing a miraculous event, but that doesn't mean someone else doesn't observe such things. All the atheist can say is "I have never seen this" but I can say "I have." Yet the atheist lives in a construct that is made up of his assumptions about naturslitic c/e and excluding anyting that challenges it. That is just like Kuhns paradigm shift. The challenges are absorbed into the paradigm untl there are so many the paradigm has to shit. This may never happen in naturalism.

So this constructed view of the world that is made out of assumption and probabilities misses a lot of experience that people do have that contradicts the paradigm of naturalism. The thing is, to make that construct they must use logic. After all what they are doing in making the correlation is merely inductive reasoning. Inductive reasoning has to play off of deductive reasoning to even make sense.

Ultimately then, "empiricism" as construed by naturalist (inductive probabalistic assumtions building constructs to form a world view) is inadquate because it is merely a contsuct and rules out a prori much that contradicts.


The A priori


God is not given directly in sense data, God transcends the threshold of human understanding, and thus is not given amenable to empirical proof. As I have commented in previous essays (bloodspots) religion is not a scientific question. There are other methodologies that must be used to understand religion, since the topic is essentially inter-subjective (and science thrives upon objective data). We can study religious behavior through empirical means and we can compare all sorts of statistical realizations through comparisons of differing religious experiences, behaviors, and options. But we cannot produce a trace of God in the universe through "objective" scientific means. Here I use the term "trace" in the Derision sense, the "track," "footprint" the thing to follow to put us on the scent. As I have stated in previous essays, what we must do is find the "co-detemrinate," the thing that is left by God like footprints in the snow. The trace of God can be found in God's affects upon the human heart, and that shows up objectively, or inter-subjectvely in changed behavior, changed attitudes, life transformations. This is the basis of the mystical argument that I use, and in a sense it also have a bearing upon my religious instruct argument. But here I wish to present anther view of the trace of God. This could be seen as a co-detmiernate perhaps, more importantly, it frees religion from the structures of having to measure up to a scientific standard of proof: the religious a prori.

Definition of the a priori.


"This notion [Religious a priori] is used by philosophers of religion to express the view that the sense of the Divine is due to a special form of awareness which exists along side the cognitive, moral, and aesthetic forms of awareness and is not explicable by reference to them. The concept of religion as concerned with the awareness of and response to the divine is accordingly a simple notion which cannot be defined by reference other than itself." --David Pailin "Religious a pariori" Westminster Dictionary of Chrisian Theology (498)



The religious a priroi deals with the speicial nature of religion as non-derivative of any other discipline, and especially it's speicial reiigious faculty of understanding which transcends ordinary means of understanding. Since the enlightenment atheist have sought to explain away religion by placing it in relative and discardable terms. The major tactic for accomplishing this strategy was use of the sociological theory of structural functionalism. By this assumption religion was chalked up to some relative and passing social function, such as promoting loyalty to the tribe, or teaching morality for the sake of social cohesion. This way religion was explained naturalistically and it was also set in relative terms because these functions in society, while still viable (since religion is still around) could always pass away. But this viewpoint assumes that religion is derivative of some other discipline; it's primitive failed science, concocted to explain what thunder is for example. Religion is an emotional solace to get people through hard times and make sense of death and destruction (it's a ll sin, fallen world et). But the a priori does away with all that. The a priori says religion is its own thing, it is not failed primitive sincere, nor is it merely a crutch for surviving or making sense of the world (although it can be that) it is also its own discipline; the major impetus for religion is the sense of the numinous, not the need for explanations of the natural world. Anthropologists are coming more and more to discord that nineteenth century approach anyway.

Thomas A Indianopolus
prof of Religion at of Miami U. of Ohio

Cross currents


"It is the experience of the transcendent, including the human response to that experience, that creates faith, or more precisely the life of faith. [Huston] Smith seems to regard human beings as having a propensity for faith, so that one speaks of their faith as "innate." In his analysis, faith and transcendence are more accurate descriptions of the lives of religious human beings than conventional uses of the word, religion. The reason for this has to do with the distinction between participant and observer. This is a fundamental distinction for Smith, separating religious people (the participants) from the detached, so-called objective students of religious people (the observers). Smith's argument is that religious persons do not ordinarily have "a religion." The word, religion, comes into usage not as the participant's word but as the observer's word, one that focuses on observable doctrines, institutions, ceremonies, and other practices. By contrast, faith is about the nonobservable, life-shaping vision of transcendence held by a participant..."



The Skeptic might argue "if religion as this unique form of consciousness that sets it apart form other forms of understanding, why does it have to be taught?" Obviously religious belief is taught through culture, and there is a good reason for that, because religion is a cultural construct. But that does not diminish the reality of God. Culture teaches religion but God is known to people in the heart. This comes through a variety of ways; through direct experience, through miraculous signs, through intuitive sense, or through a sense of the numinous. The Westminster's Dictionary of Christian Theology ..defines Numinous as "the sense of awe in attracting and repelling people to the Holy." Of course the background assumption I make is, as I have said many times, that God is apprehended by us mystically--beyond word, thought, or image--we must encode that understanding by filtering it through our cultural constrcts, which creates religious differences, and religious problems.

The Culturally constructed nature of religion does not negate the a priori. "Even though the forms by Which religion is expressed are culturally conditioned, religion itself is sui generis .. essentially irreducible to and undeceivable from the non-religious." (Paladin). Nor can the a priori be reduced to some other form of endeavor. It cannot be summed up by the use of ethics or any other field, it cannot be reduced to explanation of the world or to other fields, or physiological counter causality. To propose such scientific analysis, except in terms of measuring or documenting effects upon behavior, would yield fruitless results. Such results might be taken as proof of no validity, but this would be a mistake. No scientific control can ever be established, because any study would only be studying the culturally constructed bits (by definition since language and social sciences are cultural constructs as well) so all the social sciences will wind up doing is merely reifying the phenomena and reducing the experience. In other words, This idea can never be studied in a social sciences sense, all that the social sciences can do is redefine the phenomena until they are no longer discussing the actual experiences of the religious believer, but merely the ideology of the social scientist (see my essay on Thomas S. Kuhn.

The attempt of skeptics to apply counter causality, that is, to show that the a priori phenomena is the result of naturalistic forces and not miraculous or divine, not only misses the boat in its assumptions about the nature of the argument, but it also loses the phenomena by reduction to some other phenomena. It misses the boat because it assumes that the reason for the phenomena is the claim of miraculous origin, “I feel the presence of God because God is miraculously giving me this sense of his presence.” While some may say that, it need not be the believers argument. The real argument is simply that the co-determinates are signs of the trace of God in the universe, not because we cant understand them being produced naturalistically, but because they evoke the sense of numinous and draw us to God. The numinous implies something beyond the natural, but it need not be “a miracle.” The sense of the numinous is actually a natural thing, it is part of our apprehension of the world, but it points to the sublime, which in turn points to transcendence. In other words, the attribution of counter causality does not, in and of itself, destroy the argument, while it is the life transformation through the experience that is truly the argument, not the phenomena itself. Its the affects upon the believer of the sense of Gods presence and not the sense of Gods presence that truly indicates the trance of God.

Moreover, the attempts to reduce the causality to something less than the miraculous also lose the phenomena in reification.William James, The Verieties of Religious Experience (The Gilford Lectures):

"Medical materialism seems indeed a good appellation for the too simple-minded system of thought which we are considering. Medical materialism finishes up Saint Paul by calling his vision on the road to Damascus a discharging lesion of the occipital cortex, he being an epileptic. It snuffs out Saint Teresa as an hysteric, Saint Francis of Assisi as an hereditary degenerate. George Fox's discontent with the shams of his age, and his pining for spiritual veracity, it treats as a symptom of a disordered colon. Carlyle's organ-tones of misery it accounts for by a gastro-duodenal catarrh. All such mental over-tensions, it says, are, when you come to the bottom of the matter, mere affairs of diathesis (auto-intoxications most probably), due to the perverted action of various glands which physiology will yet discover. And medical materialism then thinks that the spiritual authority of all such personages is successfully undermined."

This does not mean that the mere claim of religious experience of God consciousness is proof in and of itself, but it means that it must be taken on its own terms. It clearly answers the question about why God doesn't reveal himself to everyone; He has, or rather, He has made it clear to everyone that he exists, and He has provided everyone with a means of knowing Him. He doesn't get any more explicit because faith is a major requirement for belief. Faith is not an arbitrary requirement, but the rational and logical result of a world made up of moral choices. God reveals himself, but on his own terms. We must seek God on those terms, in the human heart and the basic sense of the numinous and in the nature of religious encounter. There are many aspects and versions of this sense, it is not standardized and can be describes in many ways:

Forms of the A priori.

Schleiermacher's "Feeling of Utter Dependence.

Frederick Schleiermacher, (1768-1834) in On Religion: Speeches to it's Cultured Disposers, and The Christian Faith, sets forth the view that religion is not reducible to knowledge or ethical systems. It is primarily a phenomenological apprehension of God consciousness through means of religious affections. Affections is a term not used much anymore, and it is easily confused with mere emotion. Sometimes Schleiermacher is understood as saying that "I become emotional when I pay and thus there must be an object of my emotional feelings." Though he does vintner close to this position in one form of the argument, this is not exactly what he's saying.

Schleiermacher is saying that there is a special intuitive sense that everyone can grasp of this whole, this unity, being bound up with a higher reality, being dependent upon a higher unity. In other words, the "feeling" can be understood as an intuitive sense of "radical contingency" (int he sense of the above ontological arugments).He goes on to say that the feeling is based upon the ontological principle as its theoretical background, but doesn't' depend on the argument because it proceeds the argument as the pre-given pre-theorectical pre-cognative realization of what Anslem sat down and thought about and turned into a rational argument: why has the fools said in his heart 'there is no God?' Why a fool? Because in the heart we know God. To deny this is to deny the most basic realization about reality.

Rudolph Otto's Sense of the Holy (1868-1937)

The sense of power in the numinous which people find when confronted by the sacred. The special sense of presence or of Holiness which is intuitive and observed in all religious experience around the world.

Paul Tillich's Object of Ultimate Concern.

We are going to die. We cannot avoid this. This is our ultimate concern and sooner or latter we have to confront it. When we do we realize a sense of transformation that gives us a special realization existentially that life is more than material.

see also My article on Toilet's notion of God as the Ground of Being.

Tillich's concept made into God argument.

As Robert R. Williams puts it:

There is a "co-determinate to the Feeling of Utter dependence.



"It is the original pre-theoretical consciousness...Schleiermacher believes that theoretical cognition is founded upon pre-theoretical intersubjective cognition and its life world. The latter cannot be dismissed as non-cognative for if the life world praxis is non-cognative and invalid so is theoretical cognition..S...contends that belief in God is pre-theoretical, it is not the result of proofs and demonstration, but is conditioned soley by the modification of feeling of utter dependence. Belief in God is not acquired through intellectual acts of which the traditional proofs are examples, but rather from the thing itself, the object of religious experience..If as S...says God is given to feeling in an original way this means that the feeling of utter dependence is in some sense an apparition of divine being and reality. This is not meant as an appeal to revelation but rather as a naturalistic eidetic"] or a priori. The feeling of utter dependence is structured by a corrolation with its whence." , Schleiermacher the Theologian, p 4.



The believer is justified in assuming that his/her experinces are experiences of a reality, that is to say, that God is real.

Freedom from the Need to prove.

Schleiermacher came up with his notion of the feeling when wrestling with Kantian Dualism. Kant had said that the world is divided into two aspects of relaity the numenous and the pheneomenal. The numenous is not experienced through sense data, and sense God is not experineced through sense data, God belongs only to the numenous. The problem is that this robbs us of an object of theological discourse. We can't talk about God because we can't experience God in sense data. Schleiermacher found a way to run an 'end round' and get around the sense data. Experience of God is given directly in the "feeling" apart form sense data.

This frees us form the need to prove the existence of God to others, because we know that God exists in a deep way that cannot be estreated by mere cultural constructs or reductionist data or deified phenomena. This restores the object of theological discourse. Once having regained its object, theological discourse can proceed to make the logical deduction that there must be a CO-determinate to the feeling, and that CO-determinate is God. In that sense Schleiermacher is saying "if I have affections about God must exist as an object of my affections"--not merely because anything there must be an object of all affections, but because of the logic of the co-determinate--there is a sense of radical contengency, there must be an object upon which we are radically contingent.

Wednesday, September 24, 2008

None so blind as the atheists on CARM

One of the folks on CARM today says "Craig's argument has been beaten so you argument is down the drain." now I just got through saying Craig says the universe come to be, had a beginning, my argument says it probably didn't but it doesn't matter. Yet this mental giant decided that my argument is tied to the success of Carig's argument.

why can't they think?

They got their comeuppance and they are pissed as hell. I proved my argument and they could not answer it so they are mad as little wet hens.

give them the empirical evidence for god they ask for and they can't handle it.

(1) they have to distort the concepts because get them off script and they can't cope.

Dante had nothing at all to say that applied even a little to the temporal beginning argument. everything he said was tailor made to answer Craig and the temp arg has nothing to do any of Craig's assumptions really.

(2) Dante was confussed by the term "becoming."

I used that phrase not to suggest that the universe going "bing" from nothing to something in a flash, but in abstract terms, the Greek? being and becoming.

In a state of timelessness there is no becoming. The explasion of the BB is a state of becming becuase it's expanding. It's moving from one size to a bigger size becuase its exhanding that is becoming. It's becoming expanded. But he asserts that I mean something else and then asserts that I know anything because he's off script and he can't cope

(3) If he said anyting at all to contradict the argument please tell me what it was? he said nothing.

(4) I quoted physicsts he never responded to the issues at all. never addressed he quotes which clearly say he is wrong.

In all athiest assertions to the extent that "there is no empircal evdience for your God" it's only becuase when it is givne you stick your heads in the sand and say "I will not look! No ! nNo it can't be there I reruse to see it! no nononnon"

(5) After it became obvious that they could not answer the argument they began going "this has all been talked abuot before and you lost then. In former discussions with whomever may have been invovled, the atheist lost. they did the same foolish little games of deniel that they are doing now. no atheist has ever won a God argument becuase they can' play fair and they refuse to deal with the facts.

(6) Here's the clencher. If Dante is right about his argument against the temp argument then he's wrong in his argument about Craig!

that is totally ture, listen up.


He says Craig's argument that the universe "began to exist" is wrong. According to him (really to Richard carrier) if the universe began from a timeless nothing then God is outside time. If God is outside time he can't create or even think about creation because there is no change in a timeless void.

Now if that is a good argument it means to make it you have to attempt all the prmeises of my argument! No change in a timeless void

the only difference is Dante disputes that there is this timeless void because the universe doesn't just pop into being from a state of nothingness, it's continually and infinitelly expanding from an infintessimal point.

The problem is the evdience says (phsyicists experts the numbers) that there is no time and time is meaningless the closer you et to the expansion.

(a) he's wrong in saying that there is no going forom nothing to something. that Hawking thign is disproven. There is a state where QM flux does something for the first time then inflationary expansion. In that gap between the two there is no time. that measn there should be no inflationary expansion.

(b) He never answered the documentaiton I laid down from experts. He is not an expert, his opinon does not our weight experts.


(7) another problem with atheist answer. they always assuem their opinons are iron clad and experts that disagree wtih them are iditos and don't know anything.

The next time you whine about "there's no empirical evidence for your God" just remeber these simple rules.


(1) atheists can't handle facts or evidence.

(2) empirial evidence is irrevlivant becuase if it says something don't like you just refuse to accept that it means anything. thus it's pointless asking for evidence.

(3) I have given empirical evidence. I've showen that empirical data backs up good reason to believe in God. But you cannot accept that there is a good reason.

because you fear hell you must convence yourselves that christians are sutpid and there can't be a single good reason to ever believe in God, not even a little bity bity bity bit. So that means it's pointless to talk to you.









It's foolish to call for empirical proof of God, not only because you dont' want it and you will always refuse no matter how good the evidence, but also because world views are not things that can be proven with any one peice of evidence or arguemnt.

why would that be? Because world views, like belief in God, are paradigms. Paradigms require a whole world understanding. It's not a matter of stacking up facts to prove a view point. Its' a matter of coming realize there's a whole other world if you look through the lens of the new paradigm.

Science is a paradigm. Thomas S. Kuhn proved that there are no facts that build up to prove science. Science is a paradigm and it progresses through paradigm shifts not through a progression of facts. That means you have a world view change in order to see through he lens of the new paradigm.

There are lots of individual reasons to beileve in God, many of them are very good. No one of them is going to "prove" God because God, like science, like materialism, is not something that can be proved with evdience.

Science cannot be proved, nor can materialism. These are world views, they require paradigm shift. It is silly, regressive and unfair to say things like "there's no proof for your God." That's like saying "there's no proof for reading." "There's no proof for realizing that love life."


Do you realize there is no empirical evidence you could ever offer that proves someone loves life? you have to love life then realize that you do, you can't prove you do you can't prove someone else Does. belief in God is like that. It's not a matter of proof it's a matter of realization.

But for someone who really has that realization, it's real strong and it can't be shaken. you think they are stupid because they don't pay by your rules. They don't look at the world through your lens so you think that's real stupid becasue you not looking through their lens.

Tuesday, September 23, 2008

Why is it so hard for atheists to learn new thing?

Photobucket



I've been lurking on CARM. Always a hazardous thing to do. But there is a whatever it is we do with atheists on message board (a battle?) non discussion, a non debate, a ridicule sessionbetween a New guy (apparently Christian) Ancient Archer, and a bunch of atheists who haven't got the slightest idea what he's talking about.

The key issue is expansion from the Big Bang. AA uses an argument very similar to mine, called "argument from temporal beginning."The argument says that modern physicists posit that the initial condition of the universe is a timeless void in which nothing happens becasue there is no time and thus no becoming. Now Dante, one of the major atheists on the thread, uses this phrase "becoming" to misunderstand the whole argument. He assumes that AA is saying that the universe just goes "pop" and it's here instead of expanding. He thinks that makes all the difference. For him it does because his shtick is arguing with William Lane Craig. The guy is so studied and practiced at arguing against Craig arguments that he sounds very impressive. The problem is AA is not Craig he's not arguing anything like what Craig says. That "Dante" guy doesn't care because he can't really handle going of script. He's so impressive when in form against Craig, and has no idea what's being said otherwise. So the clings to his Craig script for dear life and totally misses the point.

The argument says there is no change in a timeless void. For example, if you could go the inside of a black hole you would find things just frozen for eons. If there were other people in there the would be frozen and not move and just stay like that because no time there's no change. In saying "no becoming" AA is not saying the universe comes into being like pop its there. He's saying the abstract concept of "becoming" which we find in the Greeks, is not operative in a timeless void. No sequence without time, thus cause is meaningless and thus nothing can happen. Now the false Dante argues that there is a first moment of time, but the big bang is expanding form a point of singularity and that point is infinitesimal so there is no point at which the universe starts up or comes into existence. But the thing is neither my argument nor the version that AA gives really says that. He is misled by the phrase "becoming." So he thinks the argument is that the universe just appears there out of nothing. Then that leads to much ridicule because he has nothing else to say. The calling of names is en toned, the allegations of total ignorance. All becasue this guy is so unable to think off script that he can't listen to what's being said.

AA is saying that the expansion happens in the context of a timeless void, if we go by the latest theories, which are of course proposed without appeal to the divine. Now the false Dante and his pals begin talking as though AA thinks the universe really did come from a timeless void. They get confused and don't understand that the argument really says they think that, or rather they should think it if they are up on what the latest theories say. Of course they don't get this so they just resort to saying "you don't know anything about it, because you don't argue Craig like I do."

Here is the major quote used by AA which is actually from my God argument list and sums up the nature of one of these modern theories. From an article by Sten Odenwald who is a NASA physicist and runs a website called Astronomy Cafe.

Odenwald, NASA
Copyright (C) 1987, Kalmbach Publishing.
Reprinted by permission


Theories like those of SUSY GUTS and Superstrings seem to suggest that just a few moments after Creation, the laws of physics and the content of the world were in a highly symmetric state; one superforce and perhaps one kind of superparticle. The only thing breaking the perfect symmetry of this era was the definite direction and character of the dimension called Time. Before Creation, the primordial symmetry may have been so perfect that, as Vilenkin proposed, the dimensionality of space was itself undefined. To describe this state is a daunting challenge in semantics and mathematics because the mathematical act of specifying its dimensionality would have implied the selection of one possibility from all others and thereby breaking the perfect symmetry of this state. There were, presumably, no particles of matter or even photons of light then, because these particles were born from the vacuum fluctuations in the fabric of space/time that attended the creation of the universe. In such a world, nothing happens because all 'happenings' take place within the reference frame of time and space. The presence of a single particle in this nothingness would have instantaneously broken the perfect symmetry of this era because there would then have been a favored point in space different from all others; the point occupied by the particle. This nothingness didn't evolve either, because evolution is a time-ordered process. The introduction of time as a favored coordinate would have broken the symmetry too. It would seem that the 'Trans-Creation' state is beyond conventional description because any words we may choose to describe it are inherently laced with the conceptual baggage of time and space. Heinz Pagels reflects on this 'earliest' stage by saying, "The nothingness 'before' the creation of the universe is the most complete void we can imagine. No space, time or matter existed. It is a world without place, without duration


What that says is that there is no time in the initial conditions into which the proto universe expands. The expansion is a break in the condition of super symmetry. That is a contradiction to physicist and no one knows why it happened. My argument says it should not have come about. Since it should not have happened (becasue no change in timeless void there could not be anything to change it) that's a pretty good reason to beileve in God. It requires some outside agent who is not subject to physical law to change the set up so that something contrary to physical can happen. Of the phrase "contrary to physical law" is a metaphor since it's not as though a celestial legislature passed a real law. Now some atheist pick up pon that and evoke the old descriptive physical law thing. But that doesn't really change the argument because either its not supposes to happen and that suggest an outside agent.

Of course some atheists are quire to change this with being God of the gaps, becasue here's a gap, we don't know how it is that the expansion began in a timeless void. But the atheists are sure science will expalin it some day. Not a God of the gaps argument because this is more than just not knowing, it's a actually violation of what is suppossed to happen according to the descriptions of the way the universe tends to work (ie violates physical law). AA tells them that is faith. They don't care. It's a faith they like better than Christianity.

So the circus of misunderstanding continues. The ridicule is just about to begin. Of course since they can't understand that this is not William Lane Craig, then they have to just lash out rather than try to listen to what's really being said. Now one further wrinkle. The major attack on Craig that Dante was leading, and the way this all began, centers around the argument that God can't create from outside time because it's a timeless void. This is really the height of atheist hypocrisy. They say God can't create the universe because he would have to do from outside time and he can't even think let alone act because outside time there is no change. But wait, they are spending 89 posts telling AA that there is no timeless void, the universe expands from a singularity it doesn't come up into a timeless void. where is this timeless void God is supposed to be in when he creates if this is the case? If God is suppossed to be in a timeless void when he creates then why is not the universe expanding into a timeless void? If God is hamstrung because of this timeless state, how it is that the expansion is able to expand and to function when God could not?

When the Christian says it it means he doesn't know anything. When the atheist says it, it's a brilliant and absolute dilemma which can't be gotten around! The answer I give and that AA gives is that God is not in a timeless void. The timeless void is in God. Rather, it's an illusion created by the fact that reality is in the mind of God. Prior to God's consideration of this reality, there is nothing; that creates the illusion that there's a timeless void. What actually happens is God begins to think about time and thus time appears. Of course time is not independent of space. space/time is a coherent whole, and time is a function of space/time. So the moment at which expansion seems to happen is actually the moment God begins to thin about space/time. Now this brings up another total hypocrisy. "Dante" says there is a first moment of time, then he denies that the universe "comes to be." He claims this thinking of the universe as "coming to be" is an indication that AA doesn't know anything. That must always be the upshot of disagreement on the net. So time has a first moment but not the universe. The universe expands form infinitesimal. But the evidence says there is no space apart from time and no time apart from space. Thus it would be impossible to have a first moment of time without a first moment of space, which I assume would be a coming to be.

Why must arguments on message board always be battle grounds of the ego and exercises not listening?

Friday, September 19, 2008

That Time of Year

Well my freinds, that terrible time of year is upon us once again. Not just time of year, but time every four years. The time when America get's ripped off again because they voters are too stupid too stupid to stop being fooled by the same gang of criminals every time!

Now, Bush had four years to think about it, and he couldn't figure out that if the housing market collapsed the economy would be hurt. Now the economy is almost on the verge of collapse. Bush is putting through the largest bail out since the new deal, and republicans are so stupid they are still going to yack about government regulation. Bush put this move off last year saying "O the people losing their houses were lazy and didn't want to get good jobs and really buy houses the right way." But that's just a big stupid lie. I never missed a payment, never late with a payment. I had the money to make the payments. But the mortgage company wanted to steal the house, so they fooled around with the rules and changed them in just the right way that we couldn't make the payments anymore. Most people who lost their houses had them stolen like we did.

If Bush had done the bail out last year it would not have cost nearly as much as it will now because the major financial institutions weren't in trouble then. Now the banking system is on the edge of collapse. Yet there are still republicans clamoring about the evils of government regulation! why are are people too stupid to read about history? Every single time have gotten into a mess like this its because some idiot tried let the free market do its thing. Why can't they understand the free market works by killing people. They are called poor people, and they have to die and be harmed immeasurably when the market corrects itself.

Here we go again. another presidential campaign. More lies, more crap. It's this time every four years that I can really see why atheists hate Christians. I've seen some discussion on fundie blogs already that makes the sick.

Thursday, September 18, 2008

Jesus and Old Testament Morality

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Some Criticis of Christian morlaity are always getting us to lose slight of the big pictue. They put so many little knit picking aruments like "in Passage X God cammands themt o kill so and so,and so and so didn't do anything that wrong."

They will present a massive profussion of such passages, most of which (thinking of the OT now) are based upon the fact that people over 2000 years ago looked at things very differently and had different standards of what constituted morality, truth, compassion and brutatlity. So natuarlly a great deal ancient world morality will seem very brutal to us.

But the atheists always distract us form the big picture. Everytime I try to demonstate one or two major princples that oversweep the whole field and tie up all the problems into one neat little point that can esaisly resolved, they just go "Yea? well abotu here, where x got stoned for blowing his nose?" "what about about where God tells them to wipe out the Pedestriakites and kill even the bateria on their dinner plates?!! that's bad, God is BAD BAD BAD!!!"

But never will they just face the central point and take it like real thinkers. They want this massive profussion of problematic verses to stand in the way of rally understanding or thinging about Biblical moralty; and often much what passes for their problematic verses is misunderstood.

DD prestens a lit of what's wrong with Jesus' morality, here's what he does:

(a) doubles up on synoptic passages so he can present them like four different enstances, instant multiplicty of examles. Now Jesus dint' say "pluck out your eye" once, but four times! four times as bad!

(b) mostly misunderstood because no attempt is made to watch for figurative language so he sees "i come to bring not peace but a sword" as a litteral statment that Jesus likes war! I can't even begin to comment.

But in this thread I want to ask each and everyone of you speicail, pease do not quote an massive profussion of texts in a vien attempt to show "how bad the bible is." Let's stick to the two central poinkts that I want to get at.Please?


Point 1: OT morality is progressive.


that's right. It doesn't seem so because it is brutal and unfair in many places. But:

(a) still better than surrounding committees that had infant sacrifice and no rules for freeing of slaves in jubilee year, no prohibitions against raping slave women, or civil recompense for rape or anything of the kind.


(b) Points to advancements in moral thinking over and above what the others had in terms of; written code, basic rights for slaves, expectation of humane treatment, laws to help the poor, ect.

The point; God told Israel they would be a light to the gentiles, they were. Their example led to better morality on a progressive scale; but it took time of course. Yet the standards did change.


Now of course atheists will argue that this is not indicative of a divine plan. On the other hand it meshes perfectly with my view of inspiration. It's not a memo from God but a collection of writings that are inspired by divine/human encounter.

Moreover, remember the principle of shadow to substance!

the Mosaic law was imposed to show how bad bad could be. It was a measuring stick to demonstrate and clearly define sin. It was not the solution to sin. So it shows how hard it is to live perfectly and how difficult it is to keep a benchmark of righteousness, it's supposed to be hard and unreasonable; because trying to live a holy life under our own effectuates is hard and unreasonable.

But in the NT we find God entering history as a man, and we have a direct example of what to do, just follow Jesus' charter. which leads to point 2.

Point 2: Jesus anticipated the Categorical imprative.


that gives us a logical modern framework in which to play out Christian morality in a deontolgoical fashion.

The imperative of Kant anticipated (and that's where Kant got it) in the golden rules do unto others as you would have them do unto you.


The "as you would hagve them do unto you" clause is what makes it clever, because it is both objective and flexible at the same time.


These two points explain the basis of Biblical morality and they make up for all the little picky verses where God appears to be a rotter, because they explain why the context of OT morality is so culturally bound, and demarcation a sense in which OT morality is progressive. It also explains NT as modern, advanced, logical and Kantian.

Did Jesus Support OT morality?

Mithrandir24 Put a note on the comment section saying:


As is the case with most of your posts, this was very interesting and informative. While I understand that the morality expressed in the Hebrew Bible was rather progressive for its time and the New Testament has been the inspiration and/or basis of much of the more advanced ethical theories in Western philosophy (Kant's categorical imperative being one as you pointed out), I have a few problems.

Surely you would agree that some of the laws in the OT are rather unrealistic in the punishments they prescribe for transgression, and in many cases just barbaric (e.g. Deut. 21:18-20; Num. 15:32-36). Now, my problem lies in the fact that Jesus seemed to affirm and condone the law of the Old Testament (Matt. 5:17). It's hard for me to believe that stoning children to death for disobedience (see the Deut. passage) is compatible with the character of Jesus Christ, who seemed to love children very much (Luke 18:16-17) and opposed those who wished to impose the death penalty on the adulteress (John 8:1-11).

My question is, how do we make sense of this? Do you think evangelicals are wrong when they argue that Jesus saw the Law as infallible?



The examples of verses you give say this:

example (1)





Deu 21:18 ¶ If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and [that], when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:


Deu 21:19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;


Deu 21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son [is] stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; [he is] a glutton, and a drunkard.


Deu 21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.


Example (2):



Num 15:32 ¶ And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.


Num 15:33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.


Num 15:34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.


Num 15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.





Yes, these passages are a problem for me as well. Frankly, I find it hard to accept the OT or the idea that God would really mandate such a law. They are unjust, the leave no value for the individual, you are part of the tribe, the tribe does x, you do x, the tribe does not do y, you do not do y, you don't get to choose. that is all. I couldn't live that way. I can't believe God would really impose such vengeful and unjust ideas. So the question is, because Jesus says "the law will not pass away" are we believe that therefore, Christ supported everything prescribed in the OT? The conservative Evangelicals would have us believe that because Jesus says the law wont pass away, therefore, he's supporting every stoning of every child who may have ever been stoned in Israel. I don't think that's a fair conclusion. Jesus just didn't really really interested in systematic theology. My theory, that's why he drafted Paul. Jesus was a lot more concerned with modeling behavior for us.

The answer to this question will reflect our overall theological tendencies and it will center around our views of inspiration. Those who follow verbal plenary view of inspiration ("inerrency") are bound to believe that these dictates of stoning people (almost every kid in modern middle America would wind up dead) are really God and Jesus endorse Them. I can't believe he would, they do seem antithetical, and I dont' think the "law wont pass away" passage establish that he would support it all. Jesus never gives us a theological answer about inspiration or hermeneutics or any of it. He doesn't tell us how we know, he just shows us what to do, how to be, how treat people. It's that treatment of people that is most troubling. Because how can one says who says "love your enemies" endorse killing rebellious children?

Now mind you the passage above is not talking about Theodore Cleaver skipping school to seem himself on tv. That passage is talking about drunkards, late teenage kids who really live in Sin. Be that as it may I can't really see putting them to death.

One Clue we might take from this is that Jesus tells us the summation of the law and the prophets, the whole OT, is "love God, love your neighbor." That makes it seem even more absurd to think that he would support stoning an unruly kid, even he was drinking and smoking pot and sleeping with every girl in class; he still could be brought back. What about the story of the prodigal son, he went off as a rebellious teenager to live in sin.Jesus didn't say anything to imply that he should have been stoned. Instead he said the fathers welcomes him back with open arms when he repents. Kind of hard to do if you've already stoned them.

What about the verse "nothing shall pass from the law..." This fundies tell us must mean we have to live by the law, the law is good, the whole OT is inspired. I just got through having a major argument with a fundie who tried to prove that the Bible says a follower of Jesus will not believe in evolution because it's opposed to the law. The logic was so convoluted I can't even repeat it. But this person totally confused the law in the sense of Mosaic law vs "the law" as a designation for parts of the Bible that aren't the prophets. That allows him to say everything in the Bible must be believed because Jesus said nothing will pass form the law. law= whole bible, therefore, everything in the Bible is literally true.

Let's look at the passage where Jesus seems to support the law. Leading up the passage we have the beatitudes. Leading away form the passage we have a verity of teaching that all center around the idea of being more righteous than the pharisees. This is important because it seems to be the fall out of the passage, nothing shall be lost from the law, do all that it says, and you have to be than the pharisees. This seems to give us a super legalistic Jesus, but it's really something else.

Look at the beatitudes, leading up to the statement about the law:






Matthew - Chapter 5

Mat 5:1 ¶ And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:


Mat 5:2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,


Mat 5:3 Blessed [are] the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.


Mat 5:4 Blessed [are] they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.


Mat 5:5 Blessed [are] the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.


Mat 5:6 Blessed [are] they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.


Mat 5:7 Blessed [are] the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.


Mat 5:8 Blessed [are] the pure in heart: for they shall see God.


Mat 5:9 Blessed [are] the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.


Mat 5:10 Blessed [are] they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.


Mat 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.


Mat 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great [is] your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.



What do we see going on here.I bet most of us would pick out the idea meekness, peacemaking, name of the blessed states, the poor, ect ect. But what he's actually talking about is the Kingdom of God after it comes. When are the poor going to blessed? When will the meek inherit the earth, sure wont be in the Bush administration. It's obviously, after the end of the age. That's important because what he says in the major statement about the law not failing, or not being negated is that it will be fulfilled. He says All will be fulfilled.


Mat 5:17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


He is also talking about keeping the law, I'll get to that in a minute. It is important to notice here that the actual statement "I am not come to abolish the law" is about fulfilling the law. The beatitudes are an example of this because they refer to the end of the age. That's what the law predicts, in its broader scope as a designation of scripture the law is about the coming of Messiah, the coming of the kingdom and the end of the age. This is the ultimate point he's making it's an eschatological statement.

But he's going to tie the two ideas together, he's going to tie behavior, doing what the law commands, with fulfilling the prophesies of the coming Kingdom. The link is that we are living in the kingdom, in the "already aspect," of realized eschatology. That is we live in the power of the kingdom, the power to be Godly and do God's work, to bring God's love into the world. We look foreword to the complete coming of the Kingdom when God triumphs over all evil. We are holing up a rare guard action waiting until the main boyd of God's forces arrive, led by Jesus, to complete the battle. That's the connection, because until that comes we are the outpost of the kingdom and it is the power of the Kingdom, not the law, that get's us through.




Mat 5:13 ¶ Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savor, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.


Mat 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.


Mat 5:15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.


Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.



It is our witness that will draw people into the Kingdom. Now he is where the redactor places the statement about preserving the law:





Mat 5:17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.



So he is primarily concerned with fulfillment and our part in the fulfillment is to bring in as many as we can to the kingdom; we are the light of the world. We are the city of on the hill. Why does Jesus say "think not that I have come to destroy the law?" what was said that in any way suggests that he's abolishing the law? That could be a rhetorical device or some reference of which I'm not aware. Most of the Q1 statements come from this section, the beatitudes are the kind of thing supposedly akin to Greek cynicism and thus very Q1-like. So there may even be a Greek rhetorical device at work. Actually I doubt that. I think it's because they knew he was talking about eschatology disruption, so the tendency would be to think of the coming of the new age and the end of the old.

Now he shifts over from eschatology to daily life. Here's where he shows us his conservative side.




Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


The talk about fulfillment has a downside, we also have to do everything the law says. But it get's worse:




Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.



Incidentally that statment indicates that Jesus identified more closely with the more heterodox factions, like those at Qumran, he's for being more strict than the pharisees. But why does he make this shift, and how can anyone expect one to be more legalstic than the pharisees?

Actually he doesn't say to be legalistic at all. He says to be more righteous. That's the whole point of Jesus' ethics all along. He defines keeping the law in the most compassionate sense. While the Pharisees say "put a fence around the law, make sure you keep every letter" Jesus says "Yea, yea, letter, letter's good, keep the letter but keep it in love." So even though he might say the law is true and the law will endure, would he actually say "stone the kid?" the law doesn't have to stone the kid. You can always find that he's not that strict. The law allowed for stoning adulteresses but Jesus let one off the hook.

Jesus principle of keeping the meaning (which includes the compassion) and rather than the letter, or perhaps fulfilling the content of the letter with meaning (spirit) is seen in the following passages, where he goes on to define what means by "your righteousness must exceed that of the pharisees."




Mat 5:21 ¶ Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:


Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.



He's going further than just the letter here, he's dealing with the motivations for killing, or motivations for anger, or the subtly of anger.



Mat 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;


Mat 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.



the letter of the law would say leave the gift at the alter. Jesus says hey that's not enough, go make it right with your brother so your gift will be sincere.


Mat 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.


Mat 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.


He's making an analogy between being held accountable for hatred of the brother and dealing with a legal advesary.


Mat 5:27 ¶ Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:


Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.




It's not enough to just not commit adultery, but one must also snuff the motivation for straying. In all of these things he's going further than the law. He's always going in direction of compassion. Compassion would reconcile with the brother, compassion would refrain form saying the most damaging thing, compassion would not objectify a woman and would work on restoring the relationship in marriage.

Here we have one of my favorite verses because, in my view, it is tricky.



Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not [that] thy whole body should be cast into hell.


Mat 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast [it] from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not [that] thy whole body should be cast into hell.



What a super legalistic one might say. He's actually saying we should cut off our hands if they offend us or pluck out our eyes. Does Jesus relay expects anyone to do this? Of course not! why would he? No Christian I know has ever tried it either. Do Christians hands offended them? I've never ask but what does it mean? There's one use of the hand that offends when I was kid that I would have gotten in trouble for if my parents knew about it. In the context of adultery what do you think he's saying? The eye is offensive because it leads to lust, what does the hand do? well as James Joyce once said, when a woman at a party ask "may I kiss the hand that wrote Finnegan's Wake?" Joyce replied "It's done other things as well." What do you suppose he meant?

Jesus is not telling us to cut our hands off. He's using humor, this is actually some of the law mid eastern ancient world humor of the bible, and it's sarcasm. he's saying "if you have a lame excuse such as 'my eye can't stop looking,' or 'my hand can't stop flogging the log' then cut it off!" But he know these are merely lame excuses and one doesn't control lust by putting out one's eyes. One doesn't lust because the eyes refuse to corporate. Self control begins in the mind. You learn self control in the mind the eye and the hand can't help but follow. He's saying confront the problem where it exists, don't' give me lame excuses. Why is he talking about this at all? He's still working on the idea of living righteously.He's still working on Keeping the law, and he's laying out the principle that we keep the law not by keeping the letter, but by keeping the spirit of the law. This passage is proof of that. It would be letter of the law to say cut off the hand, pull out the eye. He's saying go further than deal with the motive for sin.






Mat 5:31 ¶ It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:


Mat 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.



Here again we have this principle enunciated even more clearly. In our modern times all we can see is "don't' get divorced." In Jesus say what they would see here is, You owe your wife something. The wife could not make a living on her own. To be divorced would be a total disaster for a woman, a come down to poverty or even worse. she should not run down and get the want adds to look for a job. There were very few opportunities for an unmarried woman to make a living without sinning.

Jesus is saying sure the letter says you can get a divorce, but the spirit says you can't. Because the meaning of the law is not "you get off scoot free" the meaning of the law is a way to protect women. The divorce thing was originally good for women because it meant they could be let out of a marriage without being thought sinful. But then the economic situation make it a disaster. Jesus is saying you must consider the woman's plight and you can't divorce just for convince or so you can have your own affair.

Mat 5:33 ¶ Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:


Mat 5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:


Mat 5:35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.


Mat 5:36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.


Mat 5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.




Again, go fruther than the law. Instead of having a list of what not to swear by, just don't do it.

Mat 5:38 ¶ Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:


Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.




Clearyly this is that principle, turn the other cheek. The law says you can take equal revenge but Jesus says you dont' have to, you can offer the other cheek, forgive, use non voiolence.




Mat 5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have [thy] cloke also.


Mat 5:41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.


Mat 5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.



Give more than is asked, go further than the law.






Mat 5:43 ¶ Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.


Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;




Isn't that horse dead by now? Go further than the law. Don't just love the nieghbor love the enemy, make him a neighbor.



Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.


Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?


Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans so?


Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.




As a legalist he says "be perfect" which on one can do. In defining perfection, however, he does not order legalism, in every examle it is not the letter of law of which he is convered, it is goign beyond the law to find the meaning of the that with which the law deals, the motivation for sin, the nature of the problem, and then we apply love. That is what being perfect his, and he says it right here: eveyrone loves those who love him and hates those who hate him, when yo love everyone you are perfect as God is prefect.


Now in thinking about that stoning passage. Having my sense of hwat Biblical inspiration means I can see that as aamn attempt to come up with a law that we humans think is divine. I am certain Jesus really understood that that he really secretly knew all about Buatlmann and exegesis (at least on some level) and would have not really accepted such a passage.But even as an inerrentist I would not accept that Jesus would stone the kind. The principle of Jesus seems to always been the Spirit give life, the letter kills, go beyond the letter of the law and do that which is in keeping with the spirit of the law. The letter of the law says stone the kid. The spirit of the law says protect the community but try to reach the kid.

No reason to think he would support everything. you can't jump from a summary that says "the summary of the law is love." to stone the kid. It's not logical, and Jesus' standard was clearly go beyond the letter to the spirit of the law, which is love.