: The thesis I will defend: I don't know about miraclesor pleagues, orr Mses or partimgofthe seabut I am arguimg simply that there are good reasons to suspect that some Hebrews were at one time slaves in Egypt.
Skep: Archaeological data? You mean because there were 4-room reed dwellings in Egypt, and Israelis also used 4-room dwellings? But we don't know who built them or who lived in them. So your contention is that they could have been made by Israelis, but there is no proof of that, and they could just as well been made by native Egyptians.
It is the opinon of professional archaeolosits. they could compare with other Egyptian dwellings, and if the only one's like that are cannonite. that's reaspn to think Cannanites were there. That's not the only support.
Skep: Furthermore, there is not one single written record to corroborate that, in a land where they kept records of everything.
I think there is. One source, Dr. Douglas Petrovich’s book Origins of the Hebrews:claims new evidence Proving Hebrews lived in Egypt,But how would they know? Are they going to say "the people who will become the nation of Israe"? they would not know. Remember I am not defending the pleagues or any of the detials of Exodus.
Skep:There is no record of the mass enslavement, or the exodus, no names mentioned. There are no artifacts left behind that are distinctly Israeli. There is nothing in the archaeological record that clearly indicates their presence there.I am not defindibg their mass enslvement but they could have been in Lowli position they would latter descriobe as slavery the Israelites I mean.There references to the Eperou which may be Hebrew. But if they were just canonites the Egyptions would have no resom to call them Israelites.
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Skep: If there had been millions of them enslaved in Egypt, there would be some trace of that. If those millions made spent 40 years in the Arabian peninsula, there would be some trace of that. But there's nothing. That's archaeological data. And that's why the greater archaeological community doesn't believe it.I never said there were millions, the Bible doesn't say that either,but how would they have a trace? If therewas No Jospeh and no Moeses how are goigto identify a bucg if Cabbiutes as futrue Israelites? The appeal to "they greater cheologocal community" is ideological not logical. Foirst the gratercomunity ismade up of secularmimded people who ho rleigious alloence. They have o stidiedit, they haveproofit's not true, they only react it an ideologocal princkple they clig to naterialist assumptions.
Hey Skep please try to remember this. I have ebough respet for archaeology and scientific method to doubt theexistenceo of Jophen and Moses,or at least to ut the in a faith only caegry. But there is noway they can bw there no Hebrews im Egyt. Skepers: "Let's face it. This is a mythological story, and whatever happened way back in pre-history, that might have been the seed of the myth, is lost to us." Now you need to face the reality about myth: they are often based upon truth. I think there is alost no dfference i what I am saying and your statmemt: "...and whatever happened way back in pre-history, that might have been the seed of the myth, is lost to us." is that I stick on a probability argummt that soe Hebrews were iEgypt at sme t,oe, nothing e. You aresso hyterical about the Buble you can'taccepttheinocous posiotoon
. the thing you have never answered, why is the sojourn i Egypt so foundational to thwe Hews? why do
10 comments:
Did King David lose his salvation when he committed adultery and murder? Yes or no answers only.
"It is the opinon of professional archaeolosits."
- That comes from a religious organization.(Biblical Archaeology Society). These people are not representative of the greater archaeological community, whose consensus is that there in not sufficient archaeological evidence to support belief that the exodus actually occurred.
"One source, Dr. Douglas Petrovich’s book Origins of the Hebrews ..."
- The guy from Answers in Genesis? A group that actively promotes pseudo-scientific hogwash?
"if they were just canonites the Egyptions would have no resom to call them Israelites. "
- I didn't say they should have been called "Israelites". But there are records of the conquest and destruction of Canaan. Yet, still no mention of bringing a large group of them as slaves to Egypt.
"I never said there were millions, the Bible doesn't say that either"
- According to the book of numbers, the total count of armed fighting men in Moses' group was 603,550. Add women, children, elders, etc - and you easily have a few million. Again, a group that size would not have escaped leaving behind a wealth of evidence.
"The appeal to "they greater cheologocal community" is ideological not logical."
- No, Joe. It is the best hope of avoiding ideological bias. Your sources are religious organizations. Do you suppose that we will unbiased, non-ideological information from them? Definitely not from people like Douglas Petrovich, or the Biblical Archaeology Society.
"there is noway they can bw there no Hebrews im Egyt. ... "
- What I claim is that there was no mass exodus - because the evidence doesn't support it.
"Now you need to face the reality about myth: they are often based upon truth."
- Based upon a GRAIN OF TRUTH, sure. As in something like this: a small band of Canaanites who escaped from the Egyptians (in Canaan), worshiped a Canaanite god called Yahweh, and years later went on to settle in a place they called Israel.
There is no legitimate reason to doubt the existence of somebody like Moses, especially given how influential that he is in Jewish tradition. A lack of archaeological evidence for things from thousands of years ago should be precisely what we would expect, as the vast majority of things perish or get destroyed over time. This person you've been interacting with is a lunatic.
testing
Evangelical Cricket
Did King David lose his salvation when he committed adultery and murder? Yes or no answers only.
Yes until he repinted
The greater archaeological community has never studied this issue. In this last go round I did not quote anything from BAS. The scholar I quoted Dr, Pelovictch got his PhD from U Toronto which is a public research university and is acclaimed world wide.
Skep: "No, Joe. It is the best hope of avoiding ideological bias. Your sources are religious organizations."
Non of the resarch I brought up was produced by BSA. One quote was from their library but that do not mean it was done my them, you are freaking out over a quote wathat s put on the net by BSA: The resarch wasn't done by an arganizati but by a guy U of Toronto which is not rleigious and is accaied.
Petrovich may be a scholar. But he is first and foremost a religious apologist, and his work shows that his goal is to substantiate his religious beliefs, and that's not how legitimate science (and archaeology) works. You can't expect unbiased scholarship from someone like that. In fact, his work is highly controversial within the archaeological community. And he contributes to Answers In Genesis, which is flatly rejected by scientific scholars. You can try to present this guy as a highly respected scholar, but I don't just automatically accept his material as legitimate unbiased scholarship. I'll listen to the greater archaeological community, and you should too.
Joe, I'm not freaking out. I simply want to see unbiased scholarship, and you haven't shown that. If you want people to take this stuff seriously, you need to expand your sources outside the religious community. Cite some actual peer-reviewed, secular scholarship.
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