I.Closing off other valid forms of knowledgeand losing the phenomena.
The upshot of this entire argument is that scientific reductionism reduces the full scope of human experience and reduces reality from its full frame to preset conclusions than are already labeled "science" and "objectivity" and which screen out any other possibility. One of those possibilities is the phenomenological apprehension of God's presence through religious experience. In the conclusion to his famous Gifford lectures, Psychologist William James, whose Varieties of Religious Experience, is still a classic in the filed of psychology of religion, concluded that reductionism shuts off other valid avenues of reality.
The world interpreted religiously is not the materialistic world over again, with an altered expression; it must have, over and above the altered expression, a natural constitution different at some point from that which a materialistic world would have. It must be such that different events can be expected in it, different conduct must be required.This thoroughly 'pragmatic' view of religion has usually been taken as a matter of course by common men. They have interpolated divine miracles into the field of nature, they have built a heaven out beyond the grave. It is only transcendentalist metaphysicians who think that, without adding any concrete details to Nature, or subtracting any, but by simply calling it the expression of absolute spirit,you make it more divine just as it stands. I believe the pragmatic way of taking religion to be the deeper way. It gives it body as well as soul, it makes it claim, as everything real must claim, some characteristic realm of fact as its very own. What the more characteristically divine facts are, apart from the actual inflow of energy in the faith-state and the prayer-state, I know not."
But the over-belief on which I am ready to make my personal venture is that they exist. The whole drift of my education goes to persuade me that the world of our present consciousness is only one out of many worlds of consciousness that exist, and that those other worlds must contain experiences which have a meaning for our life also; and that although in the main their experiences and those of this world keep discrete, yet the two become continuous at certain points, and higher energies filter in. By being faithful in my poor measure to this over-belief, I seem to myself to keep more sane and true. I can, of course, put myself into the sectarian scientist's attitude, and imagine vividly that the world of sensations and of scientific laws and objects may be all. But whenever I do this, I hear that inward monitor of which W. K. Clifford once wrote, whispering the word 'bosh!' Humbug is humbug, even though it bear the scientific name, and the total expression of human experience, as I view it objectively, invincibly urges me beyond the narrow scientific bounds. Assuredly, the real world is of a different temperament,- more intricately built than physical science allows. So my objective and my subjective conscience both hold me to the over-belief which I express. Who knows whether the faithfulness of individuals here below to their own poor over-beliefs may not actually help God in turn to be more effectively faithful to his own greater tasks?"[1]
II.Philosohpical naturalism based upon: Circular Reasoning and Contradictions,
In fact this way of arguing is wrong on two counts. First, it is based upon circular reasoning. The reasoning behind this notion goes back to the Philosopher David Hume who argued that miracles cannot happen because we do not have enough examples of them happening."A miracle is a violation of the laws of nature; and as a firm and unalterable experience has established these laws, the proof against a miracle, form the very nature of the fact, is as entire as any argument from experience can be imagined."[2] We see this same sort of thinking used over and over again. Scientists sometimes resort to it. Nobel prize winning geneticist A.J. Carlson, "by supernatural we understand...beliefs...claiming origins other than verifiable experiences...or events contrary to known processes in nature...science and miracles are incompatible."[3]
The great Theologian Rudolf Bultmann, "modern science does not believe that the course of nature can be interrupted or, so to speak, perforated by supernatural powers"[4]. The context of Bultmann's comment was in proclaiming the events of the New Testament mythological because they "contradict" scientific principles.B. Hume's Argument against Miracles.The nature of this circular reasoning is pointed out by C.S. Lewis, who wrote:
Now of course we must agree with Hume that if there is absolutely uniform experience, if in other words they have never happened, why then they never have. Unfortunately we know the experience against them to be uniform only if we know that all reports of them have been false. And we can know all the reports of them to be false only if we know already that miracles have never occurred. In fact, we are arguing in a circle.[5]
The circular nature of the reasoning insists that there can be noting beyond the material realm. Any claims of supernatural effects must be ruled out because they cannot be. And how do we know that they cannot be? Because only that which conforms to the rules of naturalism can be admitted as "fact." Therefore, miracles can never be "fact." While this is understandable as a scientific procedure, to go beyond the confines of explaining natural processes and proclaim that God does not exist and miracles cannot happen far exceeds the boundaries of scientific investigation. Only within a particular situation, the investigation of a particular case can scientists make such claims.
Philosophical Naturalism based upon Metaphysical assumptions
Philosophical naturalists go beyond the claims of scientific methodology to take up a metaphysical position. Metaphysics is the branch of philosophy which seeks answers beyond the confines of the physical realm. Philosophical materialists claim to know that there is no God, or at least to be convinced of it. They rule out miracles from a philosophical basis rather than an empirical one. This is in fact a metaphysical position. But philosophical materialists also claim to debunk metaphysics. Since metaphysics holds to knowledge of things beyond the material realm philosophical materialists must count themselves its enemies. But to say that there is no God is to make a metaphysical statement. To claim to know that there is no God is claim to have knowledge of things beyond the material realm. Philosophical materialists are, in fact, taking up a position contradictory to their stated philosophy.What I am saying should not be construed as an argument against scientific investigation of miracle claims. Science should investigate with all the scientific techniques and assumptions fit for the task of valid investigation, but to the extent that such claims are ruled out science should not make blanket assumptions that God does not work miracles, but must pronounce only on those particular cases
. Notes
[1]William James, The varieties of religious experience: a study in human nature. London,New York: Longman, Green, and Co. 1902/1911, 518
[2]John Locke, An Essay Concerning Human Understanding, Chicago IL.: Open Court 1958, 126-27
[3] A.J. Carlson, Science Magazine Feb. 27, 1937, 5
[4] Rudolf Bultmann, Jesus Christ and Mythology, New York: Schribner and Sons, 1958, 15
[5]C.S. Lewis, Miracles: a Preliminary Study. New York: MacMillian, 1947, 105
____________________________ God,Science, and ideology,a book by Joseph Hinmman
God.Science, and ideology, by Joseph Hinman, is a great book. Ot argues that positions which teach the superiority of science over religion in such a way as to negate the truth content of the religious is not a scientific position but an ideological one. The books takes down such atheist greats as Dawkins and discusses the strongest God arguments.
This is an important book that spans an immense literature in a balanced and very readable form. For anyone interested in why some believe and others do not, this book will inform you of the entire range of literature in which not only can the proper questions be asked, but the reader can evaluate the often hidden ideological nature in which answers are proposed
Ralph W. Hood, Jr., Ph.D.
Professor of Psychology and LeRoy A. Martin Distinguished Professor of Religious Studies
"Hinman is highly stimulating, brilliant in places. It is rare to find a book so exuberant yet still rational."
--Lantz Fleming Miller, Ashoka University
https://www.amazon.com/God-Science-Ideology-examining-religious-scientific/dp/0982408765
19 comments:
"Now of course we must agree with Hume that if there is absolutely uniform experience, if in other words they have never happened, why then they never have. Unfortunately we know the experience against them to be uniform only if we know that all reports of them have been false. And we can know all the reports of them to be false only if we know already that miracles have never occurred. In fact, we are arguing in a circle."
- Lewis (perhaps intentionally) gets Hume's argument wrong. It does not depend on any presumption that miracles have never occurred. Hume actually argues in terms of the "weight of the evidence". For him, the question is not "Has a miracle ever occurred?" Rather, it is "What reason do we have to believe that a miracle has ever occurred?" It isn't circular at all. And I might add that Hume was a pretty smart guy. He wouldn't base an argument on a blatant circularity.
"Philosophical materialists claim to know that there is no God, or at least to be convinced of it. They rule out miracles from a philosophical basis rather than an empirical one. This is in fact a metaphysical position. But philosophical materialists also claim to debunk metaphysics. Since metaphysics holds to knowledge of things beyond the material realm philosophical materialists must count themselves its enemies."
- Yes, philosophical materialism is a metaphysical position. But metaphysics is not necessarily about "things beyond the material realm". That would be true of religious metaphysics, but not of metaphysics in the broader sense, which is about "the structure of reality". It includes the ontological question of "What things exist?" It may interest you to know that there are philosophers of science who attempt to answer those metaphysical questions in a manner that is entirely consistent with scientific knowledge. And they certainly don't think they are debunking metaphysics. In fact, any metaphysical view that isn't informed by science is basically worthless.
Even very smart people can be wrong about arguments. Being very smart is no roof he got his logic right.
Sure, a smart person can be wrong. CS Lewis was wrong about what Hume said.
- Yes, philosophical materialism is a metaphysical position. But metaphysics is not necessarily about "things beyond the material realm".
I have observed that myself
That would be true of religious metaphysics, but not of metaphysics in the broader sense,
Not all religious metaphysics.
which is about "the structure of reality". It includes the ontological question of "What things exist?" It may interest you to know that there are philosophers of science who attempt to answer those metaphysical questions in a manner that is entirely consistent with scientific knowledge. And they certainly don't think they are debunking metaphysics. In fact, any metaphysical view that isn't informed by science is basically worthless.
I studied history and philosophy of science as part of my PhD work we talked about metaphysics a time or two
Your "pre-set conclusion" is that religious experience represents the phenomenological apprehension of God's presence.
If science is the wrong way to go about it, how do we investigate God?
why pre set? I developed my view one study at a time as I wrote the book, I don't call that preset. Science is not wrong and it's useful. Making science the only from of knowledge is wrong
MC: "Making science the only from of knowledge is wrong"
Sure.
Well science doesn't provide the only form of knowledge, but perhaps the only form of sharable, verifiable knowledge. And yes because of that it is privileged above others. So what other means do we have? How can we know that God is real but can't be apprehended scientifically rather than that he just isn't real?
Existential knowledge is more primary. It can't be verified in the same way but it must be verified privately.
Science isn't knowledge. Science is a tool for obtaining knowledge.
Good point, should have said: "Existential knowledge is more primary....than the knowledge that comes through science"
"Existential knowledge is more primary..."
- So you're saying that having a gut feeling about something is superior to applying all the methods of science to test and verify our theories.
I said more primary I don't know that that means superior. It means i don't have to wait for test results to assume I exist.
"i don't have to wait for test results to assume I exist"
- There is objective evidence that you exist. It's not just a gut feeling. That's scientific.
im-skeptical said...
"i don't have to wait for test results to assume I exist"
- There is objective evidence that you exist. It's not just a gut feeling. That's scientific.
(1) Because there is objective evidence but moreso becaueitis of an empirical nature I don't rely on any analysis or testing. &(2) Have you read Descartes?
Cuttlebones
Existential experience is more primary, we can argue about whether and how, it provides knowledge. But how can you validate that experience? What is the "truth" in that experience?
The Cogito. I think therefore I am. By that I think he was trying to say that the experiential knowledge is immediate, and it is it's own confirmation,
Cuttlebones
Existential experience is more primary, we can argue about whether and how, it provides knowledge. But how can you validate that experience? What is the "truth" in that experience?
The Cogito. I think therefore I am. By that I think he was trying to say that the experiential knowledge is immediate, and it is it's own confirmation,
"Have you read Descartes?"
- Everyone has heard of Descartes' famous line "Cogito ergo sum." What he was saying is that the act of thinking requires a thinker. And therefore he must exist as a thinking being. It isn't really so much about the experience, or about objective vs subjective.
"becaueitis of an empirical nature I don't rely on any analysis or testing."<\i>
- You grossly misunderstand what I (and others) mean by "scientific" - or as Jerry Coyne calls it: "science broadly construed". It doesn't mean that everything we know must be tested in a lab. It's more along the lines of objective, repeatable, and subject to verification. It is often the result of personal experience.
If I see a tree, there are two possibilities: either the tree is there, or it's an illusion. If others see the tree and everyone agrees about that, then it is objective knowledge. But if I think I see it and others don't see it, that is subjective experience on my part that doesn't agree with objective reality. The point here is that first-hand experience is not necessarily true. Objective knowledge is a much more reliable indicator of truth.
im-skeptical said...
"Have you read Descartes?"
- Everyone has heard of Descartes' famous line "Cogito ergo sum." What he was saying is that the act of thinking requires a thinker. And therefore he must exist as a thinking being. It isn't really so much about the experience, or about objective vs subjective.
Hearing of it, reading it, understanding are three different things. I was sure you would get it.
"because it's of an empirical nature I don't rely on any analysis or testing."
- You grossly misuand what I (and others) mean by "scientific" - or as Jerry Coyne calls it: "science broadly construed". It doesn't mean that everything we know must be tested in a lab. It's more along the lines of objective, repeatable, and subject to verification. It is often the result of personal experience.
I thought we past the phase of making negative assessments of each other's knowledge based upon agreement or disagreement with us.
If I see a tree, there are two possibilities: either the tree is there, or it's an illusion. If others see the tree and everyone agrees about that, then it is objective knowledge. But if I think I see it and others don't see it, that is subjective experience on my part that doesn't agree with objective reality. The point here is that first-hand experience is not necessarily true. Objective knowledge is a much more reliable indicator of truth.
You pass Philosophy 101.
7:47 AM
Skep do me a favor. would you make commits on my latest blog piece? It's floundering.
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