Sunday, February 26, 2023

Peter and Mark: Problems With Authorship



Modern scholarship has long rejected Petrian authorship. Conservatives are less likely to accept that verdict but essentially there seems to be no strong compelling reason to accept Peter as author of I Peter. There may,however, be a couple of reasons to question that conclusion.The assumption among modern scholars is against Petrine authorship, but there are some arguments for it. First the weak:

-attributes itself to Peter
-knew christians from far away who Peter could have met on Pentecost
-Claims to have been sent from Babylon; babylon means Rome;we know that Pete wound up in Rome documented by 1 Clement [1]
-The author of the letter also indicates that he has a close relationship with “Marcus my son” (1 Peter 5:13). This may be the same John Mark with whose family Peter had found refuge years earlier.[2]

Those may be good answers in context but anyone could say those things That does not prove Peter wrote the epistle. The best reasons to think he did are that the early fathers understood that he did. The second reason is the above context and the realization that the author gives away his Jewishness in the use of Hebrewisms related to speaking of God. Chapter 2:11. Sets himself and readers apart from Gentile pagans.

For my money the best reason to deny Petrian authorship is because the book is so well written. [3] It doesn't seem likely that a Galaleian fisherman would know such fine Greek. Since Papias says he used John Mark as interritor in  Rome it seems clear he could not have written in Greek.But he could have asked someone to fix the letter for him. So it could be that the letter is based upon Peter's ideas but brought to reality by words of another. Maybe that's what he means by saying Silas helped  with the letter at end of chpatr 5,v"12 With the help of Silas, whom I regard as a faithful brother, I have written to you briefly, encouraging you and testifying that this is the true grace of God. Stand fast in it."

It is also possible that John Mark was the one who wrote the letter for him. Of course we could never prove that.

This raises a question about Marcan authorship of the gospel of Mark. If Mark was interpreter for Peter in Rome we should expect him to communicate well in Greek. Yet the Gospel of Mark is not well written. My Greek professor said his Greek was horrible and his professor called Mark "the illiterate one." He gets tenses wrong, he gets persons; wrong as in first and second and many other things.

"Ben Witherington in The Gospel of Mark: A Socio-Rhetorical Commentary (pp. 18-9) documents a number of stylistic traits of Mark's Gospel:"
Historical present tense verbs
Repetition of phrases
Impersonal plural verb followed by a singular verb
First-person plural narrative
Parenthetical clarifications
γάρ-clauses
Anacoluthon
Paratactic καί
Aramaic phrases
Unusual words or constructions
Chreia
As Witherigton Puts it:

"In sum, these traits point to an author who struggles to express himself in the language he is writing...  So the text itself suggests the author of Mark was, in fact, an Aramaic speaker."[4]

Mark could still stand behind the document as its root source although it was written by someone else. Mark could have imparted the knowledge Peter gave him to the community and the community produced the actual author. The name Mark is associated with the work because it was a product of the Mark community.

Neither case can be proven and it may be likely either namesake stands behind the work. Does that mean the works should just be chucked out? Apostoloic authorship was a major criterion for acceptance in the cannon, That is the reason they kept sticking names of prominent evangelists on Gospels. Even so in these documents the Bishops saw the rudiments of the Gospel as they were meant to be. Thus these books belong in the canon.

Notes

[1]Michael J. Kok "Peter in Rome: Peter endured many labours in 1 Clement 5:4," The Jesus Memoirs... ) (June 9:2017)
https://jesusmemoirs.wordpress.com/2017/06/09/peter-in-rome-1-clement-5/

Kok: Current Position: New Testament Lecturer and Dean of Student Life, Morling College Perth Campus

Education: Bachelor of Arts in Religion and Theology with a Specialization in Biblical Studies (Taylor University College), Master of Arts in Religious Studies (University of Alberta), Ph.D. in Biblical Studies (University of Sheffield)

1 Clememt 5:4 documents Peter in Rome, he was present himself and saw Peter.

for Text of Clement see Peter Kirby, early Christiam writtings: https://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/1clement-lightfoot.html Also backed by St Ignatious. Two greats attest to it.

Persuasive evidence does exist that Clement had personal contact with Simon Peter and studied under the apostles. Irenaeus of Lyons (AD 130—200) informs us that “this man [Clement of Rome], as he had seen the blessed apostles, and had been conversant with them, might be said to have the preaching of the apostles still echoing [in his ears], and their traditions before his eyes” (Against Heresies 3:3).
https://www.gotquestions.org/Clement-of-Rome.html

[2]Frank F. Judd Jr.,"The Case for Petrine Authorship of 1 Peter," The Ministry of Peter the Cheif Apostle, Frank Judd, Religious Studies Center,BYU,(bi date listed) https://rsc.byu.edu/ministry-peter-chief-apostle/case-petrine-authorship-1-peter

[3]Ibid

[4]Ben Witherington, in "What Evidence Suggests That Greek was NOt Mark's First Lamgague," Biblical Hermeneutics, Stack Exchage. (Jyly 30, 2018) https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/2021/what-evidence-suggests-that-greek-was-not-marks-first-language



17 comments:

JAB128 said...

I just wanted to share this here (since nobody comments on Atheist Watch anymore). Yesterday, I watched a debate from 2009 between William Lane Craig and Richard Carrier:

WLC vs. Carrier: Did Jesus Rise From the Dead?

Then, I decided to go on Atheist Watch this morning, and look up Carrier. I found this:

Atheistwatch: Carrier vs WLC

One of the critiques was right on. Carrier wouldn't address the four main facts Craig put out there, and he actually believed that the disciples hallucinated the resurrection appearances (lol). He also claimed that Barabbas was a fictional character because his name wasn't common (more lol).

After that, I looked up Carrier on You Tube, and I found a person called Gnostic Informant. He posted this garbage:

Gnostic Informant: Top 3 Reasons Why Christianity FAILS

One of his reasons: Jesus didn't sacrifice anything. He is still alive and with the father. Also, he used that scripture where Jesus told the disciples that they won't taste death until the son of man be come as failed prophecy. He wasn't talking about the second advent there. He was talking about his death, resurrection, and ascendancy to the right hand of God.


Jesse Albrecht said...

I think that the case against Petrine authorship has been grossly exaggerated:

https://rationalchristiandiscernment.blogspot.com/2018/09/a-case-for-traditional-authorship-of-2.html

JAB128 said...

Thanks, Jesse. That is one book that is controversial. Another one is II Thessalonians.

There is a guy named Keith Michael who wrote a book called False Witness. He believes that the gospels are forgeries, and the authorship of several books is controversial. Have you heard of that book (also, he seems to attack the Apostle Paul a lot), Jesse?

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

JAB128 Here is the next part pf text on AW:


"Well I was at the Richard Carrier Vs Lane Craig debate tonight, and I will be as objectively accurate as I can, when I say that Craig literally wiped the table with Dr. Carrier. All Carrier talked about all night long was the fact that certain events in the new testament, mirror those of certain events in the old testament."

I closed down AW because the political situation: fighting Trump just gave me too much to do.

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

Jesse I agree case against Pete is exaggerated.


"There is a guy named Keith Michael who wrote a book called False Witness. He believes that the gospels are forgeries, and the authorship of several books is controversial. Have you heard of that book (also, he seems to attack the Apostle Paul a lot), Jesse?"

"forgery" is a propaganda word. The ideas of disputing authorship is not original. It's been done a thousand times since 19tyh century. Atheists can't get their heads around the fact that there believing liberal scholars like me who accept such problems as authorship and still believe the faith. They are not "forgeries" since the material comes from the community as a whole the community itself was the witness. Even if parts of them are not historical they are not forgeries. Authorship dies not necessarily impinge upon historicity. Scholars today see the community as the author not a single individual.

Jesse Albrecht said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Unknown said...

While the issue of authorship may seem distant from the topic of healthy living , it highlights the importance of integrity and honesty in all aspects of life. Just as we strive to maintain a healthy body, we must also prioritize the health of our values and actions.

JAB128 said...

Good points, Joe. I agree with a few things Keith said (and, for the record, he isn't an Atheist. He is a Christian who wants to reform the church). However, Keith uses people like Bart Ehrman and Hyam Maccoby as his sources for his anti-Paul views. Ehrman is OK, but not great. Also, I went on Tekton to investigate Maccoby, and according to JP, he is not a very good source.

Jocelyn Martha said...

As a writing service provider, we understand the importance of proper authorship attribution. The case of Peter and Mark highlights the need for careful examination of authorship claims. We encourage all writers to prioritize ethical and accurate authorship, and we are here to assist in navigating any related concerns.

Anonymous said...

Joe Hinman is a Bible-believing Asshole alright. But he ain't no scholar. If he were, he would not be using all those books outside of the Bible. Joe isn't on any scholar's radar. His research quality is poor grammar terrible. Joe is indeed Metacrock, FULL OF CROCK.

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

Meri Sehat said...
While the issue of authorship may seem distant from the topic of healthy living , it highlights the importance of integrity and honesty in all aspects of life. Just as we strive to maintain a healthy body, we must also prioritize the health of our values and actions.

No false. they did not see it that way in the ancient worlds. they had a tradition called "pseudepigrapha" Attribute to an author who did really wrote it but sort of symbolized the ideals it supports. That was totally acceptable to them.

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

JAB

Good points, Joe. I agree with a few things Keith said (and, for the record, he isn't an Atheist. He is a Christian who wants to reform the church).

That's cool.

However, Keith uses people like Bart Ehrman and Hyam Maccoby as his sources for his anti-Paul views. Ehrman is OK, but not great. Also, I went on Tekton to investigate Maccoby, and according to JP, he is not a very good source.

Ehrman is dishonest and seeks the end of Christianity.JP is a friend but we don't agree on everything. I think Paul is totally misunderstood. He is not silencing women. He is my hero, one of the greatest theologians ever. He invented Christian theology. He did not invent the Christian faith but he explaimedit in way theologically no one had ever done.

Anonymous said...

Jocelyn Martha,

This is the level your scholarship:

https://avatars.mds.yandex.net/get-vthumb/876494/20e34820c029e808a700f4c1c52e3ef8/564x318_1

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

Jocelyn Martha said...
As a writing service provider, we understand the importance of proper authorship attribution. The case of Peter and Mark highlights the need for careful examination of authorship claims. We encourage all writers to prioritize ethical and accurate authorship, and we are here to assist in navigating any related concerns.

You need to take some classes in biblical literature. while the thigns you say are good for now, they are not thoughtful they do not reflect the atttudes of the ancient world.

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

Anonymous Anonymous said...
Joe Hinman is a Bible-believing Asshole alright. But he ain't no scholar.

Yes I is! a Masters degree in religious studies.


If he were, he would not be using all those books outside of the Bible.

Everyone uses extra biblical sources. why do you think scholars publish, stupid? they publish so their work will guide others in research dunderhead. where is your article to compare with mine? you don't have nay because you don't know the first thing about it/


Joe isn't on any scholar's radar. His research quality is poor grammar terrible. Joe is indeed Metacrock, FULL OF CROCK.

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

Joe isn't on any scholar's radar.


I don't do academic publishing anymore but I was at one time. see articles by me in Negations, I also ran the journal, I got a lot of support from academics for that journal.

His research quality is poor


Let's see yours.


grammar terrible.

I bet you confuse grammar with spellimg and punctuations show me one sentence with bad grammar?

Joe is indeed Metacrock, FULL OF CROCK.


thatis so clear totally escapes you I have know Crock in the word for a reason stupid.

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

People like that are so pathetic, he doesn't have anything to say about the ideas. the truth means nothing to him it's all about a subverting the works by harping on personality and minutia.

He's not posting here again.