Monday, February 20, 2023

Could God Create a Perfect World?


For the purposes of this article the counter apologist will be known as "CA."Free will defense as "FWD." I will answer one major point in CA's essay but I think it is a point upon which his entire project for the article rests.

In this essay I focus upon the deterministic contradiction CA thinks he has found in the FWD. At the end I will briefly discuss the question in the title.

My goal is to show that Christian responses to the problem of evil while referencing Libertarian Free Will (LFW) are at best ineffectual at answering the problem of evil because LFW does not preclude god creating what I call “heaven world” where any natural number of created beings all freely choose to never sin and always freely choose to love god. Theistic and especially Christian apologists want to deny that god could create such a world, despite it being a logically possible world and god supposedly being able to do anything logically possible by way of his omnipotence.[1]
The upshot being that if God could have created that world then why didn't he? Why did he create this world instead? At this point he introduces the thoughts of 16th-century Spanish Jesuit priest and Roman Catholic theologian Luis de Molina.Molina believed that God knew all counterfactuals. Here is CA's actual example: “Bob will always freely choose X in situation Y”.[2]

this schema, god looks at all logically possible worlds, and then chooses which one to instantiate along with the people who will be in it. Then creation plays out deterministically, where the sum total of situations of the universe god created plays out and each person god created goes through them. The key is that each person makes a “free decision” that god knew they’d pick for every situation they live through.[3]
If Bob always chooses xin Y then God can't make a world in which Bob chooses not X.This is what CA says."What strikes me is exactly how deterministic this libertarian free will ends up being. The idea is that Bob always freely chooses X in situation Y, yet the theist apologist will insist that somehow it is still logically possible that Bob chooses ~X in situation Y."[4]

At this point he thinks he's shown that free will responses to theodicy are contradictory since they insist that Bob still has free will even tough he always only chooses one way."What strikes me is exactly how deterministic this libertarian free will ends up being. The idea is that Bob always freely chooses X in situation Y, yet the theist apologist will insist that somehow it is still logically possible that Bob chooses ~X in situation Y. I believe that this is where a hidden contradiction is being glossed over."[5]

But since Bob is only hypothetical and is predetermined by his place as an example, there is no actual role played by Bob. This example has nothing to do with real world outcomes. Suppose I decree an example that Bob sometimes chooses not X? Does that not reverse the argument? There is no determinism involved in the real world account of this example.

Consider the alternative, what if we insist that “always” is not a rigid designator for the identity of ‘Bob’ because we want to hold that it is logically possible that 'Bob'
freely chooses ~X in situation Y? In this case there is a logically possible world in which ‘Bob’ freely chooses ~X in situation Y and a logically possible world where ‘Bob’ freely chooses X in situation Y. Here it is up to God to choose which world to instantiate.  If this is the case then the schema for Molinism falls apart, because then god can't have foreknowledge of which choice Bob will make in situation Y without god having to choose which world to instantiate, which in turn seems to rob 'Bob' of his supposedly libertarian free will.
So no matter what Bob chooses it's deterministic? That makes no sense because the argument is based upon Bob always doing the same thing.CA's answer to Bob changing is that it's still deterministic. That is clearly foolish because it means the terms of his original example are meaningless.

The CA is beating up on some strain of thought he doesn't like, but I did a piece on free will defense without using any of these categories. CA's argument does not disprove the faith,It's more like the partial failure of some Free Will theodicy.[6]

As for the larger question: can God make a perfect world? My question is how do we know what a perfect world is, from God's perspective. Probably it would involve people who can be in a relationship with God. Of course God can make a perfect world but he can't stockit with people who freely love the good unless he allows them to go through the process of choosing freely. That necessitates free will and that risks people making evil choices.

If God supports free will then for him a world of robots who are created having chosen would not be perfect, their choices would not be their own. God can create a perfect world but he has to first allow us to go through the muck to build one,

NOTES

[1]The Counter Apologist, "The Utter Failure of the Free Will Theodicy," Counter Apologist Blog. (oct 17,2022) https://counterapologist.blogspot.com/2022/10/the-utter-failure-of-free-will-theodicy.html#more. accessed feb15,2023.

Orubted transcrit here: https://counterapologist.blogspot.com/2022/10/the-utter-failure-of-free-will-theodicy.html#more

[2]Ibid

[3]Ibid

[4]Ibid

[5]Ibid

[6]Joseph Hinman,"My Free Will Defense," Metacrock's Blog,(JANUARY 29, 2023) https://metacrock.blogspot.com/2023/01/my-freewill-defense.html" accessed Feb 24 2023

13 comments:

Anonymous said...

Joe: If Bob always chooses xin Y then God can't make a world in which Bob chooses not X.This is what CA says."What strikes me is exactly how deterministic this libertarian free will ends up being. The idea is that Bob always freely chooses X in situation Y, yet the theist apologist will insist that somehow it is still logically possible that Bob chooses ~X in situation Y."

The real issue here is deciding what free will actually is.

CA's position is that is a given situation Y, Bob will always do X. This presupposes people act for a reason - even if it is not a good reason. If the situation changes, so it is like Y, but not quite Y, then the reasons change, and he might do something else, but in the exact situation Y (which includes his life history), he will always pick X.

This is not something that can be tested because we could never set up Bob to be in the same situation twice - the second time he would have memory of the first and that alone would make it different.

But we can ponder the alternative. Let us suppose in some universes Bob sometimes does A and in some he does B. Why does he choose one over the other? He has no reason to prefer A in one universe, but B in another. We can suppose that at that moment, A is the more reasoned action, so we can understand him choosing A, but why B?

If at this point you are thinking maybe B has a short-term benefit, then you are missing the point. A is the preferred choice either way. Either it is better long-term and he is currently considering the long term, or it is the short-term choice, and that is all he is worried about. Right now, in situation Y, A is the better choice from Bob's perspective at that moment.

So why pick B?

I can only suppose it is random. And some people will invoke the randomness of the quantum world at thus point. But how is that free will?

Pix

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

I don't think this proves determinism

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

It is possible that Bob always chooses Y because it seems right but he is capable of altering if he chose to. That is not determinism, unless you find determinism in the situation that causes him to choose as he does. Even though that may be deterministic it does not prove that all our will is determined.

Anonymous said...

Joe: It is possible that Bob always chooses Y because it seems right but he is capable of altering if he chose to. That is not determinism, unless you find determinism in the situation that causes him to choose as he does. Even though that may be deterministic it does not prove that all our will is determined.

So how is that different to a heating unit choosing to turn on when the temperature drops below a threshold? It is capable of choosing to do otherwise, but, given the temperature drop it seems right to do so.

To be clear, I am not sure I even understand what free will is, let alone have a solid position on it.

Pix

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

Anonymous said...
Joe: It is possible that Bob always chooses Y because it seems right but he is capable of altering if he chose to. That is not determinism, unless you find determinism in the situation that causes him to choose as he does. Even though that may be deterministic it does not prove that all our will is determined.

Pix: So how is that different to a heating unit choosing to turn on when the temperature drops below a threshold? It is capable of choosing to do otherwise, but, given the temperature drop it seems right to do so.

the heating unit does not choose. If it is programed to go at a certain temp that is not free that is determinism

To be clear, I am not sure I even understand what free will is, let alone have a solid position on it.

Do you not want things? If yo have desires you have a will if you choose your actions that is free will

Anonymous said...

Joe: the heating unit does not choose. If it is programed to go at a certain temp that is not free that is determinism

What makes you think you are different? If you always do the same thing in a given situation, how is that different to the heat, other than the degree of complexity?

Joe: Do you not want things? If yo have desires you have a will if you choose your actions that is free will

That is an interesting approach. I will think on that.

Pix

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

Anonymous said...
Joe: the heating unit does not choose. If it is programed to go at a certain temp that is not free that is determinism

What makes you think you are different? If you always do the same thing in a given situation, how is that different to the heat, other than the degree of complexity?


I don't always do the same things because the situation is never exactly the same. There too any factors one can't assert the same factors always apply. Moreover, when I do something it's because I want to; heating unit wants nothing,

Cuttlebones said...

WE have free will in order to choose "the good", why? Why does God want us to choose "the good". Good for what? From what I can see "the good" is what benefits us as a species here on Earth. What does it mean to God? In respect to the God of the Bible, Life is just a test of character. God could create a perfect world but that would defeat the purpose.

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

we must choose the good because if its imposed it's not the good. love has to be freely given that's he point the good is love.

Anonymous said...

Joe: I don't always do the same things because the situation is never exactly the same. There too any factors one can't assert the same factors always apply. Moreover, when I do something it's because I want to; heating unit wants nothing,

As you say, the situation is never exactly the same.

For the heat, there is a single variable, the temperature. For a person there are a vast array, as you say. But does that mean the difference is only one of complexity?

Pix

Anonymous said...

Does God have free will? Could be choose evil? Or is he obliged, because of his nature, to always choose good?

Do people in heaven have free will? Can they choose to do evil?

Pix

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

Anonymous said...
Does God have free will?

Of course


Could be choose evil? Or is he obliged, because of his nature, to always choose good?

he tells it is impossible for God to lie. Heb 6:18

Do people in heaven have free will? Can they choose to do evil?

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

yes free will in heaven