Before getting started we need to define some words:
'Memra'-- is the Aramaic for 'word.' Intervhangeable for Jews of 1 century with logos
Targum-- second century Aramaic translation of Hebrew Scriptures.
Targumim (translations into Aramaic for use in worship services)
One of the most common beliefs among Pagan cultures was in a trinity of gods. We find this among the Egyptians, Indians (of India), Japanese, Sumarians, Chaldeans, and of course, the Babylonians, to where historians trace the roots of trinitarism.This view is bunck. I find little evidence that these pagan notions were a real Trinity like the Christian Trinity (three perona in one esence) and not just three gods closely identififed. More importantly, all the intellectual material necessary to formulate the doctrien is present in Judaism and no need need to appeal to pagan ideas.
Church history shows a gradual assimilation of Pagan ideas into Christianity, brought about mostly by the Roman or Western Church, which became a political/religious extension of the Roman Empire. Foremost among the pagan ideas was the adoption of the trinity doctrine into the dogma of the church. Pagan holidays (holy days) were also incorporated into tradition by “Christianizing” them, thus we end up with Christmas being celebrated on Dec 25th; Easter, which combined the resurrection of Christ with the pagan goddess Ester, and Halloween combined with All Saint’s Day.[1]
Turnig to the works of Kaufmann Kohler:
Despite the fact that the Doctrine was formulated by the church over several centuries, the basic elements of it can be seen clearly in the New Testament. Several verses actually dipict the there persona of the Godhead working together at the same time, in concert but distinctively seperaate.In fact, a formula of the Trinity can be seen in many passages:
Matthew 28:19
Father, Son, holy spirit
1 Corinthians 12:4-6
Spirit, Lord, God
2 Corinthians 13:14
Christ, God, holy spirit
Galatians 4:4-6
God, Son, spirit of his Son
Ephesians 4:4-6
Spirit, Lord, God
1 Peter 1:2
God, Spirit, Jesus Christ
Kufmann Kohler:
"The Word," in the sense of the creative or directive word or speech of God manifesting His power in the world of matter or mind; a term used especially in the Targum as a substitute for "the Lord" when an anthropomorphic expression is to be avoided.II.Hebrew Emanations embedded in Trinity.
The point starting here,ryhhing thorughit the essay, is that John was not reaching to paganism but tryig to express in Greek an older idea from Judaism, that of the emeinationsof God.god, the Logos means word. This is going to be hard to understand. The word of God is distinct frm God and yet is God. Logos means word the logos is the word of God.
—Biblical Data:
In Scripture "the word of the Lord" commonly denotes the speech addressed to patriarch or prophet (Gen. xv. 1; Num. xii. 6, xxiii. 5; I Sam. iii. 21; Amos v. 1-8); but frequently it denotes also the creative word: "By the word of the Lord were the heavens made" (Ps. xxxiii. 6; comp. "For He spake, and it was done"; "He sendeth his word, and melteth them [the ice]"; "Fire and hail; snow, and vapors; stormy wind fulfilling his word"; Ps. xxxiii. 9, cxlvii. 18, cxlviii. 8). In this sense it is said, "For ever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven" (Ps. cxix. 89). "The Word," heard and announced by the prophet, often became, in the conception of the seer, an efficacious power apart from God, as was the angel or messenger of God: "The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel" (Isa. ix. 7 [A. V. 8], lv. 11); "He sent his word, and healed them" (Ps. cvii. 20); and comp. "his word runneth very swiftly" (Ps. cxlvii. 15).[2]
Personification of the Word.
—In Apocryphal and Rabbinical Literature:
While in the Book of Jubilees, xii. 22, the word of God is sent through the angel to Abraham, in other cases it becomes more and more a personified agency: "By the word of God exist His works" (Ecclus. [Sirach] xlii. 15); "The Holy One, blessed be He, created the world by the 'Ma'amar'" (Mek., Beshallaḥ, 10, with reference to Ps. xxxiii. 6). Quite frequent is the expression, especially in the liturgy, "Thou who hast made the universe with Thy word and ordained man through Thy wisdom to rule over the creatures made by Thee" (Wisdom ix. 1; comp. "Who by Thy words causest the evenings to bring darkness, who openest the gates of the sky by Thy wisdom"; . . . "who by His speech created the heavens, and by the breath of His mouth all their hosts"; through whose "words all things were created"; see Singer's "Daily Prayer-Book," pp. 96, 290, 292). So also in IV Esdras vi. 38 ("Lord, Thou spakest on the first day of Creation: 'Let there be heaven and earth,' and Thy word hath accomplished the work"). "Thy word, O Lord, healeth all things" (Wisdom xvi. 12); "Thy word preserveth them that put their trust in Thee" (l.c. xvi. 26). Especially strong is the personification of the word in Wisdom xviii. 15: "Thine Almighty Word leaped down from heaven out of Thy royal throne as a fierce man of war." The Mishnah, with reference to the ten passages in Genesis (ch. i.) beginning with "And God said," speaks of the ten "ma'amarot" (= "speeches") by which the world was created (Abot v. 1; comp. Gen. R. iv. 2: "The upper heavens are held in suspense by the creative Ma'amar"). Out of every speech ["dibbur"] which emanated from God an angel was created (Ḥag. 14a). "The Word ["dibbur"] called none but Moses" (Lev. R. i. 4, 5). "The Word ["dibbur"] went forth from the right hand of God and made a circuit around the camp of Israel" (Cant. R. i. 13).
A. Hebrew view of God is emanation theory.
This concept is more often found in the Kabala, where it is more explicit, but it can be seen in the Torah and in Rabbinical writings too. In the Intertestamental period, Philo the Jewish philosopher uses the term Logos (as Edersheim documents, op. cit) to refer to the emanation of God's presence in the world. The notion of memra is used in that way as well. Emanation is like light from the sun, or form a light bulb, the light is emanating out in continuous manifestations. We cannot go into the origins of Kabalism here, but even though the actual Kabala was written in the middle ages, the ideas contained in it, and the basic style of mysticism, go back to intertestamental times. Many, both Jews and Gentiles are suspicious of it, because it is basically the Jewish occult. But one of the oldest if not the earliest Kbalaistic works, Yetsirah, shows us something of the use of this term Memra. Kabalism contains influences of Hellenization through Platonism mixed with Hebrew mysticism. The basic question here is, according to Edersheim, God's connection with his creation. That connection is an emanation. God is emanating through the Sephiroth, realms which make up the world.[3]
"These 10 Sephiroth occur everywhere and the sacred number 10 is that of perfection. Each of these Sephiroth flows from its predecessor and in this manner the divine gradually evolves. This emanation of the 10 Sephiroth then constitutes the substance of the world; we may add it constitutes everything else. In God in the world everywhere we meet these 10 Sephiroth at the head of which is God manifest or the Memra "(Logos or Word). From the Book of Yetsirah Edersheim quotes Mishnah 5: "The Sephiroth Belimah--their appearance like the sheen of lighteing (reference here to Ez. 1:14) and their outgoing (goal) that they have no end, His Word is in them (The Logos Manifest in the Sephiroth), in running and in returning and at his word like storm wind they peruse and before his throne they bend in worship." [Edersheim--693]
Note: This is not to say that the Jews thought of these things as a "Trinity." If one says Memra, to a Jew, he/she does not say "ah, yes the second person of the Jewish Trinity." There is no Jewish Trinity. To a Rabbi this is just a word for God's presence. But the Messianic Rabbis do take a similar approach to my own in their understanding of Trinity. After all, This self revealing presence of God is what John was driving at in his use of the term "logos" just as a Word reveals, so is the Logos the revelation of God.
B. Hebrew Emanations at the root of Trinity.
Hebrew emanation theories influence upon the Trinitarian doctrine. The doctrine of the Trinity is too complex to cover in full here, but it can be sufficed to say that in seeking meaning within the Pagan world, early Christian theologians borrowed from Middle Platonism which committed them to a view of three persons in one essence. However, even this view borrows from emanations views already within Platonism, and earlier Jewish notions. "Middle Plantonism can be described as emmanationist, predominately Binartarian, and possibly subordinationist. Not much needs to be said about the middle platonist preference for emanation theory in its theology of origin, partly because such imagery remains just as much at home in the Christian binartarian and Trinitarian theology..."[4]. According to this same article there may also be some influence from Philo's Middle Platonism directly upon Christian thinkers.
The first Christian theologian to coin the term "Trinity" was Tertullian, and the analogy he used was that the sun, it's rays dappled and visible as three separate shafts but all of the same substance and emanating form the same source. Classified list of passages in which the term Memra occurs in the Targum Pseuo-Johanthan on the Pentateuch
C. Edersheim's List of uses of Memra.
Edersheim complied an amazing list of several hundred instances of the use of Memra in Targimum translations:
(From Edersheim, p 663--partial list) Gen. 2: 8, 3: 8, 10, 24, ; 4: 26; 5: 2; 7: 16, 9:12, 13, 15, 16,17; 11:8; 12:17; 15:1; 17: 2, 7,10, 11; 18: 5; 19: 24;20: 6, 18;21:20, 22, 23, 33, 22: 1; 24: 1,3; 26: 3, 24,28; 27: 28,31; 28: 10,15,20; 29: 12; 31: 3,50; 35: 3, 9; 39: 2,3, 21,23; 41: 1, 46:4; 48: 8,21; 49: 25, 1,20;
Exodus 1: 21; 2: 5, 3:12; 7: 25; Lev. 1:1; 6: 2; 8: 35...
Examples: Gen 2:8 "Now The Lord God had planted a Garden in the East and there he put the man he had formed." (presumably Lord God is Memra).
Gen. 7:16 "And the animals going in were 2 of every kind as the Lord God had comanded."
(The original list is 16 rows long) The Notions on Memra and especially on the Kabala are very complex. Edersheim goes into it in much more detail. We do not have the space to follow this in that sort of detail. But I urge anyone who understands Hebrew and is familiar with Hebrew writings to get Edersheim's Book and read this section and contemplate it deeply. In fact I urge them to read and contemplate the whole book deeply.
The Point of all of this:
1) John uses Logos as the Greek for Memra.
Through looking at the way in which the Targumim translate certain words for God's presence as "memra," and the interchangeability of Memra and logos, we can understand the way that John used Logos in his Gospel; he used it in the way that the Targums use Memra. In other words, the logos is an emanation of God's presence.
The point here is John was not reaching to paganism but trying to express in Greek an older idea from Judaism, that of the emeinations of God.
Spources:
[1] Ed Torrence, "Pagan Roots of the Trinity Doctrinem" Bibical Unitarian, wevsite, 2024m from Rediscovering Original Christian Theology,” Pagan Roots of Trinity Doctrine by Ed Torrence © 2002 https://www.biblicalunitarian.com/articles/pagan-roots-of-the-trinity-doctrine-ed-torrence-2002
[2] Kaufmann Kohler, "MEMRA (= Ma'amar' or 'Dibbur,' 'Logos'"Jewish Encycloedia, website,1897 https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/10618-memr%CE%B1 Kaufmann Kohler (born May 10, 1843, Fürth, Bavaria [Germany]—died Jan. 28, 1926, New York, N.Y., U.S.) was a German-American rabbi, and one of the most influential theologians of Reform Judaism in the United States. [3]Alfred Edersheim, Life and Times ofJesus the Mssiah,Andesite Press (August 8, 2015) The life and times of Jesus the Messiah. by: Edersheim, Alfred, 1825-1889. Publication date: 1907. Topics: Jesus Christ. Publisher: New York
Alfred Edersheim (7 March 1825 – 16 March 1889) was a Jewish convert to Christianity and a Biblical scholar known especially for his book The Life and Times of Jesus the Messia .He was a major scholar in late 19th century teaching at both Oxford and Cambrige at the same time. His faily was wealthy he was trained to be a rabbi while growing up up but and to went college in Eourpe he became a christian.
[4]"Trinity" Westminster's Dictionary of Christian Theology p582).
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25 comments:
Interesting! Thanks for the analysis.
That was me. Didn't realize I wasn't signed in.
Thanks Kristen
Joe: This view is bunck. I find little evidence that these pagan notions were a real Trinity like the Christian Trinity (three perona in one esence) and not just three gods closely identififed. More importantly, all the intellectual material necessary to formulate the doctrien is present in Judaism and no need need to appeal to pagan ideas.
I agree.
Joe: Despite the fact that the Doctrine was formulated by the church over several centuries, the basic elements of it can be seen clearly in the New Testament. Several verses actually dipict the there persona of the Godhead working together at the same time, in concert but distinctively seperaate.In fact, a formula of the Trinity can be seen in many passages:
This view is also bunk - for exactly the same reason. None of the verses cited describe the real trinity, three persona in one essence.
Joe: This concept is more often found in the Kabala, where it is more explicit, but it can be seen in the Torah and in Rabbinical writings too. In the Intertestamental period, Philo the Jewish philosopher uses the term Logos (as Edersheim documents, op. cit) to refer to the emanation of God's presence in the world. The notion of memra is used in that way as well. Emanation is like light from the sun, or form a light bulb, the light is emanating out in continuous manifestations. We cannot go into the origins of Kabalism here, but even though the actual Kabala was written in the middle ages, the ideas contained in it, and the basic style of mysticism, go back to intertestamental times.
And again, this view is bunk - for exactly the same reason.
The concept of the trinity - three persona in one essence - is simply not in the Bible. It was invented later, and Christians have been trying to find Biblical justification for it ever since.
Pix
Anonymous said...
Joe: This view is bunck. I find little evidence that these pagan notions were a real Trinity like the Christian Trinity (three perona in one esence) and not just three gods closely identififed. More importantly, all the intellectual material necessary to formulate the doctrien is present in Judaism and no need need to appeal to pagan ideas.
I agree.
Joe: Despite the fact that the Doctrine was formulated by the church over several centuries, the basic elements of it can be seen clearly in the New Testament. Several verses actually dipict the there persona of the Godhead working together at the same time, in concert but distinctively seperaate.In fact, a formula of the Trinity can be seen in many passages:
This view is also bunk - for exactly the same reason. None of the verses cited describe the real trinity, three persona in one essence.
I said the elements or there not the doctrine itself The elements are there, the main one's being the three persona and their actions and speeches that all three are seen as persons.
Joe: This concept is more often found in the Kabala, where it is more explicit, but it can be seen in the Torah and in Rabbinical writings too. In the Intertestamental period, Philo the Jewish philosopher uses the term Logos (as Edersheim documents, op. cit) to refer to the emanation of God's presence in the world. The notion of memra is used in that way as well. Emanation is like light from the sun, or form a light bulb, the light is emanating out in continuous manifestations. We cannot go into the origins of Kabalism here, but even though the actual Kabala was written in the middle ages, the ideas contained in it, and the basic style of mysticism, go back to intertestamental times.
And again, this view is bunk - for exactly the same reason.
That makes no sense, I doubt you have those sources, that's an opinion let's see you back it up.
The concept of the trinity - three persona in one essence - is simply not in the Bible. It was invented later, and Christians have been trying to find Biblical justification for it ever since.
That's what I said. You can't explain the Shikina which is clearly distinct from God and yet is God.Or Jesus I am statements. That's the doctrine, it's not spelled out as such, but it clearly is.
11:23 PM
You seem to be ignoring the elephant in the room. Judaism has no concept of a trinity, although it did emerge from a polytheistic tradition (as can be clearly seen in the Pentateuch). And they did have the concept of a messiah, which was not God. Jesus had a following of Jews at first, and they viewed him as the messiah, but he was not officially recognized as such by the Jewish faith, so they split from Judaism to establish their own faith, and that faith was spread within the pagan Roman society. And they (not the Jews) first declared Jesus to be the son of God and finally granted divinity to him. (They turned Mary into a demigod, as well). Now we have these elements (polytheism, monotheism, Jesus the Christ, the Jewish messiah) all thrown into a blender, and from that emerges Christianity. But they have a problem: How can Jesus be a god in a monotheistic faith? So the idea of the trinity emerges. It's a clever way to blend polytheism and monotheism. The scriptures don't exactly support it, but they do contain passages that can be reinterpreted to provide some backing for the concept. On top of that, the church is not above adding fixes to the New Testament. So, for example, where baptism had always been done "in the name of the Lord" or "in the name of Jesus", we now find a passage where it says "in the name of the father, the son, and the holy ghost". This is an obvious change to an established tradition.
I dealt with the lack of Trinity in the OT. I show they do have elements of Doctrine that was the only point I was out t make. Christianity did not split from Judaism because they would not declare Jesus Messiah, the9break came in AD 70 when the Jews ask the Jesus movement to die with them fighting the Romans. But the leader of the Christians supposedly the cousin of Jesus said God showed him to flee to Pella in Trans-Jordan. That's what they did, so the Jews said OK screw you. the split was on both sides. they were kicked out of Judaism and they quite.
"I dealt with the lack of Trinity in the OT. I show they do have elements of Doctrine"
- That doesn't mean you dealt with it successfully. Judaism doesn't have elements of the trinity doctrine. They have no such doctrine. What they have is passages in their scripture that you can interpret to be supportive of the trinity. But they don't interpret it that way.
What are the elements of the doctrine? One is a distinction betwee various roles of God and their identification as seperaate persona, This is what we have with the Creator God, the Shekina glory, and the Spirit of God. Why does God say "I will pour out my spirit on all flesh?" As though we have two separate things, God and the Spirit of God? (Joel 2:28) There are many other passages where the Spirit of God seem to be different from God, including the Shikina which is God but appearing as cloud or fire.
Pix is really a stupid person. He speaks dogmatically like he knows something but you know he is usually full of crap. I have no idea as to why Joe keeps allowing him to comments here. There is such a thing as shaking the dust off your feet.
?: Pix is really a stupid person. He speaks dogmatically like he knows something but you know he is usually full of crap. I have no idea as to why Joe keeps allowing him to comments here. There is such a thing as shaking the dust off your feet.
It is easy to call someone stupid, but rather more difficult to show it. If you disagree with me, how about you show that I am wrong? Should be easy.... if you are right.
Pix
That's the problem. You have been proven wrong so many times and you still don't listen. That's why I called you stupid.
"This is what we have with the Creator God, the Shekina glory, and the Spirit of God."
- That is not a trinity, or anything like it. The spirit of the Hebrew God is not a separate person, just as your own spirit is not a separate person from you. It IS you. And the Shekinah is just a manifestation of God. It is not a separate person.
I was a believer for over 40 years. I was “deconstructing Christianity” (aka, demanding better answers) in my own life starting years ago. It forced me to ask difficult, honest questions. Finding the answers wasn’t as difficult as mustering the courage to ask them, and accepting the implications of the answers.
Best thing I’ve ever done. I continue to ask honest questions in search of truth. Knowing my 40 years of commitment to the belief in Christ and the gospel, I hardly recognize the “old me” anymore.
For those questioning Christianity I say continue to demand real answers. Question the answers. Improve your “bullshit detector” and stop accepting the pat answers that Christianity gives to questions. Continue to learn.
If you are happy in your belief in Christianity, believe it. Knock yourself out. If not, leave it. It doesn’t hold up under scrutiny. You’ll soon learn that. Don’t take my word for it. Demand better, more consistent answers and you’ll find better, more consistent answers.
What does the concept of the Trinity achieve, apart from sanctioning the worship of Jesus while maintaining the "no other Gods" decree?
Anonymous
Pix is really a stupid person. He speaks dogmatically like he knows something but you know he is usually full of crap. I have no idea as to why Joe keeps allowing him to comments here. There is such a thing as shaking the dust off your feet.
No Px is not stupid. He is very intelligent and he's an academic in hard field at a major University in the UK. AT times he tends to be a big myopic and dogmatic, but not to a level we can't handle. Px is my friend. I don't appreciate you calling him names. Moreover this is not what we want in this community. We want a community of friendly thinkers who maintain a free and fair open exchange of ideas, WE do not want name calling, we don't need commentary on the personalities involved.
That's the problem. You have been proven wrong so many times and you still don't listen. That's why I called you stupid. Don't do it again. seriously.
Me: This is what we have with the Creator God, the Shekina glory, and the Spirit of God."
-skep: That is not a trinity, or anything like it. The spirit of the Hebrew God is not a separate person, just as your own spirit is not a separate person from you. It IS you. And the Shekinah is just a manifestation of God. It is not a separate person.
Yes it is very much like a Trinity. The relationship between the creator and the Spirit, and the Shekina is just like the Trinity in that all three are God. Yes they are separate and distinct enough to have separate names and separate functions. Those are two actual members of the Trinity the Father and the Spirit. If include the Talmud the way it talks about the Messiah is almost Trinitarian, the problem is he's not eternal. He exists before the world and sits on the throne of God.
What does the concept of the Trinity achieve, apart from sanctioning the worship of Jesus while maintaining the "no other Gods" decree?
Isn't that enough? Tillich had a couple of arguments about how it gives Christianity a unique concept n one else has.
"This is what we have with the Creator God, the Shekina glory, and the Spirit of God."
- That is not a trinity, or anything like it. The spirit of the Hebrew God is not a separate person, just as your own spirit is not a separate person from you. It IS you. And the Shekinah is just a manifestation of God. It is not a separate person.
Yes in OT God often speaks of his Spirit as separate. "I will pour out my soirit on all flesh." can you pour your spirit out without dying? Of csouse they are not really separate they are the same thing that's what makes it trinity. Trinity is not about three Gods it about one God with three persona.
Mrs. atheist. I was an atheist. When i first started calling myself an atheist I felt joy and freedom and excitement I felt like I must be brilliant and it was great, years latter when I found Jesus it was so much better The Joy I found in knowing Gd totally surpasses anything atheism did for me. It is off scale happiness. Especially when God showed me he doesn't want us to be fundamentalists. don't be like that. That was great because my one real objection I felt God was on my side with that.
MC: "Isn't that enough?"
So it's just a legalistic creation? A way of laying to rest some of the difficult questions that arose once they raised Jesus from being instilled with some divine-ness, to actually being "God"?
That's what theology is for: faith seeking uderstanding
That's what theology is for: faith seeking uderstanding
The trinity is about three persons in one God - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity
The son doesn't know what the father plans to do. "Only the father knows."
That's NOT found anywhere in the Jewish faith. The Shekinah is God, not a separate person.
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