Sunday, April 21, 2024

pre Mark redaction

The unknown Gospel of Papyrus Egerton 2

The unknown Gospel of Egerton 2 was discovered in Egypt in 1935 exiting in two different manuscripts. The original editors found that the handwriting was that of a type from the late first early second century. In 1946 Goro Mayeda published a dissertation which argues for the independence of the readings from the canonical tradition. This has been debated since then and continues to be debated. Recently John B. Daniels in his Clairmont Dissertation argued for the independence of the readings from canonical sources.[4] Daniels states "Egerton's Account of Jesus healing the leaper Plausibly represents a separate tradition which did not undergo Markan redaction...Compositional choices suggest that...[the author] did not make use of the Gospel of John in canonical form." (Daniels, abstract).[5] The unknown Gospel of Egerton 2 is remarkable still further in that it mixes Johannie language with Synoptic contexts and vice vers. [6]The Unknown Gospel preserves a tradition of Jesus healing the leper in Mark 1:40-44. (Note: The independent tradition in the Diatessaran was also of the healing of the leper). There is also a version of the statement about rendering unto Caesar. Space does not permit a detailed examination of the passages to really prove Koster's point here. But just to get a taste of the differences we are talking about:

This is very significant because it indicates a reading independent of and therefore prior to Mark;s redaction,

. Koster:

"There are two solutions that are equally improbable. It is unlikely that the pericope in Egerton 2 is an independent older tradition. It is equally hard to imagine that anyone would have deliberately composed this apophthegma by selecting sentences from three different Gospel writings. There are no analogies to this kind of Gospel composition because this pericope is neither a harmony of parallels from different Gospels, nor is it a florogelium. If one wants to uphold the hypothesis of dependence upon written Gospels one would have to assume that the pericope was written form memory....What is decisive is that there is nothing in the pericope that reveals redactional features of any of the Gospels that parallels appear. The author of Papyrus Egerton 2 uses independent building blocks of sayings for the composition of this dialogue none of the blocks have been formed by the literary activity of any previous Gospel writer. If Papyrus Egerton 2 is not dependent upon the Fourth Gospel it is an important witness to an earlier stage of development of the dialogues of the fourth Gospel....(Koester , 3.2 p.215)[7]
Gospel of Peter

Fragments of the Gospel of Peter were found in 1886 /87 in Akhimim, upper Egypt. These framents were from the 8th or 9th century. No other fragment was found for a long time until one turned up at Oxyrahynchus, which were written in 200 AD. Bishop Serapion of Antioch made the statement prior to 200 that a Gospel had been put forward in the name of Peter. This statement is preserved by Eusebius who places Serapion around 180. But the Akhimim fragment contains three periciopes. The Resurrection, to which the guards at the tomb are witnesses, the empty tomb, or which the women are witnesses, and an epiphany of Jesus appearing to Peter and the 12, which end the book abruptly.

Many features of the Gospel of Peter are clearly from secondary sources, that is reworked versions of the canonical story. These mainly consist of 1) exaggerated miracles; 2) anti-Jewish polemic.The cross follows Jesus out of the tomb, a voice from heaven says "did you preach the gospel to all?" The cross says "Yea." And Pilate is totally exonerated, the Jews are blamed for the crucifixion.[8] However, "there are other traces in the Gospel of Peter which demonstrate an old and independent tradition." The way the suffering of Jesus is described by the use of passages from the old Testament without quotation formulae is, in terms of the tradition, older than the explicit scriptural proof; it represents the oldest form of the passion of Jesus.[9] Jurgen Denker argues that the Gospel of Peter shares this tradition of OT quotation with the Canonicals but is not dependent upon them.[10] Koester writes, "John Dominic Crosson has gone further [than Denker]...he argues that this activity results in the composition of a literary document at a very early date i.e. in the middle of the First century CE" (Ibid). Said another way, the interpretation of Scripture as the formation of the passion narrative became an independent document, a ur-Gospel, as early as the middle of the first century![11]

Corosson's Cross Gospel is this material in the Gospel of Peter through which, with the canonical and other non-canonical Gospels Crosson constructs a whole text. According to the theory, the earliest of all written passion narratives is given in this material, is used by Mark, Luke, Matthew, and by John, and also Peter. Peter becomes a very important 5th witness. Koester may not be as famous as Crosson but he is just as expert and just as liberal. He takes issue with Crosson on three counts:

1) no extant text,its all coming form a late copy of Peter,

2) it assumes the literary composition of latter Gospels can be understood to relate to the compositions of earlier ones;

3) Koester believes that the account ends with the empty tomb and has independent sources for the epihanal material.

Koester:

"A third problem regarding Crossan's hypotheses is related specifically to the formation of reports about Jesus' trial, suffering death, burial, and resurrection. The account of the passion of Jesus must have developed quite eary because it is one and the same account that was used by Mark (and subsequently Matthew and Luke) and John and as will be argued below by the Gospel of Peter. However except for the appearances of Jesus after his resurrection in the various gospels cannot derive from a single source, they are independent of one another. Each of the authors of the extant gospels and of their secondary endings drew these epiphany stories from their own particular tradition, not form a common source....Studies of the passion narrative have shown that all gospels were dependent upon one and the same basic account of the suffering, crucifixion, death and burial of Jesus. But this account ended with the discovery of the empty tomb. With respect to the stories of Jesus' appearances, each of the extant gospels of the canon used different traditions of epiphany stories which they appended to the one canon passion account. This also applies to the Gospel of Peter. There is no reason to assume that any of the epiphany stories at the end of the gospel derive from the same source on which the account of the passion is based."[12]
So Koester differs from Crosson mainly in that he divides the epiphanies up into different sources. Another major distinction between the two is that Crosson finds the story of Jesus burial to be an interpolation from Mark to John. Koester argues that there is no evidence to understand this story as dependent upon Mark.[14] Unfortunately we don't' have space to go through all of the fascinating analysis which leads Koester to his conclusions. Essentially he is comparing the placement of the pericopes and the dependence of one source upon another. What he finds is mutual use made by the canonical and Peter of a an older source that all of the barrow from, but Peter does not come by that material through the canonical, it is independent of them. That source is the Pre Mark Passion Narrative (PMPN)

"The Gospel of Peter, as a whole, is not dependent upon any of the canonical gospels. It is a composition which is analogous to the Gospel of Mark and John. All three writings, independently of each other, use older passion narrative which is based upon an exegetical tradition that was still alive when these gospels were composed and to which the Gospel of Matthew also had access. All five gospels under consideration, Mark, John, and Peter, as well as Matthew and Luke, concluded their gospels with narratives of the appearances of Jesus on the basis of different epiphany stories that were told in different contexts. However, fragments of the epiphany story of Jesus being raised form the tomb, which the Gospel of Peter has preserved in its entirety, were employed in different literary contexts in the Gospels of Mark and Matthew." [14]
Also see my essay Have Gaurds, Will Aruge in which Jurgen Denker and Raymond Brown also agree about the indpeendent nature of GPete. Brown made his reputation proving the case, and pubulshes a huge chart in Death of the Messiah which shows the idendepnt nature and traces it line for line. Unfortunately I can't reproduce the chart.

What all of this means is, that there were independent traditions of the same stories, the same documents, used by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John which were still alive and circulating even when these canonical gospels were written. They represent much older sources and the basic work which all of these others use, goes back to the middle of the first century. It definitely posited Jesus as a flesh and blood man, living in historical context with other humans, and dying on the cross in historical context with other humans, and raising from the dead in historical context, not in some ethereal realm or in outer space. He was not the airy fairy Gnostic redeemer of Doherty, but the living flesh and blood "Son of Man."

Moreover, since the breakdown of Ur gospel and epiphany sources (independent of each other) demands the logical necessity of still other sources, and since the other material described above amounts to the same thing, we can push the envelope even further and say that at the very latest there were independent gospel source circulating in the 40s, well within the life span of eye witnesses, which were based upon the assumption that Jesus was a flesh and blood man, that he had an historical existence. Note: all these "other Gospels" are not merely oriented around the same stories, events, or ideas, but basically they are oriented around the same sentences. There is very little actual new material in any of them, and no new stories. They all essentially assume the same sayings. There is some new material in Thomas, and others, but essentially they are all about the same things. Even the Gospel of Mary which creates a new setting, Mary discussing with the Apostles after Jesus has returned to heaven, but the words are basically patterned after the canonical. It is as though there is an original repository of the words and events and all other versions follow that repository. This repository is most logically explained as the original events! Jesus actual teachings!

Canonical Gospels

The Diatessaon is an attempt at a Harmony of the four canonical Gospels. It was complied by Titian in about AD172, but it contains readings whihc imply that he used versions of the canonical gospels some of which contain pre markan elements.

In an article published in the Back of Helmut Koester's Ancient Christian Gospels, William L. Petersen states:

"Sometimes we stumble across readings which are arguably earlier than the present canonical text. One is Matthew 8:4 (and Parallels) where the canonical text runs "go show yourself to the priests and offer the gift which Moses commanded as a testimony to them" No fewer than 6 Diatessaronic witnesses...give the following (with minor variants) "Go show yourself to the priests and fulfill the law." With eastern and western support and no other known sources from which these Diatessaranic witnesses might have acquired the reading we must conclude that it is the reading of Tatian...The Diatessaronic reading is certainly more congielian to Judaic Christianity than than to the group which latter came to dominate the church and which edited its texts, Gentile Christians. We must hold open the possibility that the present canonical reading might be a revision of an earlier, stricter , more explicit and more Judeo-Christian text, here preserved only in the Diatessaron.[15]
Summary and Conclusion

Koster and Crosson both agree that the PMR was circulating in written form with empty tomb and passion narrative, as early as 50AD

From this notion as a base line for the begining of the process of redaction, and using the traditional dates given the final product of canonical gospels as the base line for the end of the process, we can see that it is quite probable that the canonical gospels were formed between 50 and 95 AD. It appears most likely that the early phase, from the events themselves that form the Gospel, to the circulation of a written narrative, there was a controlled oral tradition that had its hay day in the 30's-40's but probably overlapped into the 60's or 70's. The say sources began to be produced, probably in the 40's, as the first written attempt to remember Jesus' teachings. The production of a written narrative in 50, or there abouts, probably sparked interest among the communities of the faithful in producing their own narrative accounts; after all, they too had eye witnesses.

Between 50-70's those who gravitated toward Gnosticism began emphasizing those saying sources and narrative pericopes that interested them for their seeming Gonostic elements, while the Orthodox honed their own orthodox sources that are reflected in Paul's choices of material,and latter in the canonical gospels themselves. So a great "drying up" process began where by what would become Gnostic lore got it's start, and for that reason was weeded out of the orthodox pile of sayings and doings. By that I mean sayings Like "if you are near to the fire you are near to life" (Gospel of the Savior) or "cleave the stone and I am there" (Thomas) "If Heaven is in the could the birds of the air will get there before you" (Thomas) have a seeming gnostic flavor but could be construed as orthodox. These were used by the Gnsotically inclined and left by the orthodox. That makes sense as we see the earliest battles with gnosticism beginning to heat up in the Pauline literature.

My own theory is that Mark was produced in several forms between 60-70, before finally coming to rest in the form we know it today in 70. During that time Matthew and Luke each copied from different versions of it. John bears some commonality with Mark, according to Koester, becasue both draw upon the PMR. Thus the early formation of John began in 50-s or 60s, the great schism of the group probably happened in the 70's or 80s, with the gnostic bunching leaving for Egypt and producing their own Gnostic redaction of the gospel of John, the orthodox group then producing the final form by adding the prologue which in effect, is the ultimate censor to those who left the group.

The Gospel material was circularizing throughout Church hsitory, form the infancy of the Church to the final production of Canonical Gospels. Thus the skeptical retort that "they weren't written until decades latter" is totally irrelevant. It is not the case,they were being written all along, and they were the focus of the communities from which they sprang, the communities which originally witnessed the events and the ministry of Jesus Christ.

Sources

[1-3] I am transposing this paper fromone oe I previouly wote. I tart with fn 4.

[4] John B. Daniels, The Egerton Gospel: It's place in Early Christianity, Dissertation Clairmont, CA 1990. Cited in Helmutt Koester, History and Literature of Early Christianity,second Edition, New York, Berlin: Walter D. Gruyter, 186.

This is from a dissertation cited by major scholar Helmutt Koester., so apparently Daniels did good work as a graduate student, Koester is New Testamemt Studies at Harvard.

[5] Ibid.

[6] Joachim Jeremias, "Unknown Sayings,An Unknown Gospel with Johannine Elements" in Hennecke-Schneemelcher-Wilson, NT Apocrypha vol 1. Westminster John Knox Press; Rev Sub edition (December 1, 1990,96.

[7]Helmut Koester, Ancient Christian Gospels: Their History and Development, London. Oxford, New York: Bloomsbury T&T Clark; 2nd prt. edition, 1992, 215

. [8] Koester, 218).

[9] Philipp Vielhauer, Geschichte,Geschichte der Urchristlichen Literatur einleitung in das Neue Testament, die Apokryphen und die Apostolischen Väter (1975) 646

Translation:

Philip Vielhauer, History of The original Christian Literature: Introduction to thev New Testment, the Apocrypha, and the Apostolic Fathers. (cited by Koester)

[10] In Koester, 218

[11] Ibid, 218-220

[12] Ibid. 220

[13] Ibid.

[14] Ibid, 240

[15] William L. Petersen Titian's Diatessaron in Helmut Koester, Ancient Christian Gospels: Their History and Development, Philadelphia: Trinity Press International, 1990, p. 424

24 comments:

Anonymous said...

I get the impression that Koester's view is that Papyrus Egerton 2 is dated before John, but after Mark, but having read all of pages 205 to 216, I will acknowledge he is not clear.

Pix

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

He clearly thinks it's pre Mark.

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

he says this: "There are two solutions that are equally improbable. It is unlikely that the pericope in Egerton 2 is an independent older tradition. It is equally hard to imagine that anyone would have deliberately composed this apophthegma by selecting sentences from three different Gospel writings. There are no analogies to this kind of Gospel composition because this pericope is neither a harmony of parallels from different Gospels, nor is it a florogelium. If one wants to uphold the hypothesis of dependence upon written Gospels one would have to assume that the pericope was written form memory....What is decisive is that there is nothing in the pericope that reveals redactional features of any of the Gospels that parallels appear. The author of Papyrus Egerton 2 uses independent building blocks of sayings for the composition of this dialogue none of the blocks have been formed by the literary activity of any previous Gospel writer. If Papyrus Egerton 2 is not dependent upon the Fourth Gospel it is an important witness to an earlier stage of development of the dialogues of the fourth Gospel....(Koester , 3.2 p.215)[8]

im-skeptical said...

"The original editors found that the handwriting was that of a type from the late first early second century."

That doesn't indicate pre-Mark to me.

Anonymous said...

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Promised to unite Americans - FAIL
Promised to eradicate the Covid - FAIL
Promised that 70% of Americans would be vaxxed by last July of 2020 - FAIL
Promised to improve Jobs - FAIL
Promised new jobs for Americans - Fail (increase in the job market was based on post Covid returning to work and an increase with full time workers taking on second and third part time jobs to pay their bills because of Biden’s failed economic policies) another Joe Biden lie.
Promised to keep taxes down - FAIL
Promised to improve our standard of living - FAIL
Promised to control inflation - FAIL
Promised to improve America's reputation abroad -ULTIMATE FAILURE
Promised to secure our borders - FAIL
Promised to reduce the amount of fentanyl coming across the border - FAIL
Bidennomics - FAIL
Strengthen our Military - FAIL
Bring TRUTH to Government - FAIL
Lied about the inflation reduction act and is breaking the law according to information supplied to the Senate by Joe Manchin 12/08/23.
Got us involved in two wars
Abandoned Americans in Afghanistan, and Haiti.
Left Billions of dollars worth of military equipment to the enemy in Afghanistan.
Has had twenty American Embassies forced closed around the world. The most of ANY president.
Lied to the American people about his and his family’s foreign affairs, cashing in on millions of dollars.
Allowed his son and daughter to skate on their taxes while demanding Americans pay their fair share.
Can chew gum and walk at the same time - FAIL
Can ride a bike stationary, with training wheels or without and not fall - FAIL

Manage to have the worst presidency all time to be followed by five other DEMORATS, Clinton’s, Obama, Carter, Johnson and Kennedy.

Pix

Anonymous said...

Sorry I'm at a crack I forgot about this I wanted you to respond to something earlier he said identifying coherent arguments. YOU don't believe just any fact that anybody testifies to merely beacuse they testified to it, so you can hardly blame skeptics if they find that the mere testimony of the bible to a miracle claim is insufficient to compel them to believe. this addresses EVERYTHING you argued. There is no rule of historiography, common sense or historigraphy that renders any modern person irrational or unreasonable for refusing to pay attention to a 2000 year old story. today's skeptics are no more unreasonable to disregard the biblical evidence for Jesus' resurrection, than they are to disregard the Apocrypha's stories of miracles.

12) Yes, I know how linguistics works. Do you recognize what you are trying to do when you tell somebody else that a greek word Paul used in one of his letters appears in none of his other letters? You are trying to argue that the word must have a rare meaning.


13) First, I was never obligated to show Paul believed in spiritual resurrection. Second, reasonableness of a position doesn't always require evidence. Look at all the fools who believe the originals of the bible were error free despite never seeing the orignials and their inability to argue that the copies in English accurately represent the originals. Third, I only argued contradiction between Paul's resurreciotn concepts, I deny the argument of other skeptics that Pual taught "spiritual" resurrection. Fourth, YOU are the only raving lunatic here, for pretending that Paul's resurrection statements are capable of coherent understanding, when in fact what exactly paul meant in most of his theologically significant statements has been the subjevt of Christian in-house controversy for 2,000 years. had Paul simply quoted Luke 24:39 in 1st Cor. 15 instead of going on his stupid shit tirade about bodies of various glories, we wouldn't be having this conversation, fool. But thank Paul and his obvious refusal to use any of the historical Jesus' teaching to ground any of his important theological points. if your pastor ignored the historical Jesus' statements as often as Paul did, you'd probably get him defrocked.


14) You don't make argument here. The author in Revelation often speaks about what he notices physically over there and over here, even though from the beginning we are led to believe this is all limted to what God is revealing to his mind. In any other case, you'd call adult protective services on any fool who was unable to distinguish spatial locations limited to his mind and spatial locations external to his mind.

15) I was referring to 1st Cor. 5:8, and I was correct, nothing therein expresses or implies that Paul physically saw this Jesus since in the magical fantasyland of the bible, apparently a sky-god can physically reveal himself to somebody and keep himself hidden from the other people at the same scene. Furthermore, you are forced under your Christian assumptions to reconcile 5:8 with Acts' descriptions of Jesus "appearing" to Paul, and once again, none of these express or imply he saw a "person", they only state he saw a "light", with the result that such light physically blinded him, making his failure to physically see any physical Jesus all the more likely. If I appeared to you with a light shining in your face so bright that you went blind from it, would you have "seen" me? NO, you

Anonymous said...

.

7) Why would Luke's consistency about any subject place the burden on the skeptic to either trust it or prove it wrong? Don't good liars also find consistency to be a desireable trait? Why should we assume Luke's consistency implies his truth? Don't liars desire consistency too? Once again, your source comes from a miracle story from 2000 year ago, and you were already instructed that nothing about a story's existence or consistency intellectually or morally obligates anybody to believe it. Jesus was so interested in showing himself visually to his followers in the first century, wy doesn't he do so today? Can't it be reasonable to say the inconsistency between the magical fantasyland of the 1st century and today exists because these ancient stories are false?

9) I don't have to claim to figure out the actual truth about an ancient miracle story, I was merely cluing the Christian reader into the fact that a story is sometimes hard to believe because it actually is fiction.

10) And since I can justify atheism, there is no intellectual compulsion on me to agree that 2,000 year old story about a blinding light proves a physical divine being was there. If you think "physical resurrection" can be reconciled with the inability of Paul's traveling companions to see Jesus, then you are talking about fantasy characters, and I WANT to go to hell.

10) And internal vision stories from the first century are laughably insufficient to impose any intellectual obligation upon a modern-day person to believe or refute.

Gee, Paul's internal understanding just blows skepticism of his story out of the water? WOW.

Anonymous said...

I never said YOU didn't have a good reason. I simply said the evidence in favor of your position is not so great
as to impose an intellectual obligation upon atheist and thus make them fools if they disagree with your views.

2) You apparently don't know what a non-starter is. A non-starter is any miracle claim made by somebody in the first century. You would agree with that whole heartedly...except of course where the miracle claim happens to be included in the bible.

3) You are not proving Paul to be an eyewitness of "Jesus" by pointing to a 2,000 year old story that says he saw the "light". Even if I agree he was an eyewitness to some sort of "light", the fact that his traveling companions didn't have the same experience justifies skepticism to the entire story. No different than if you say you saw the red car hit the blue car, but your traveling companions, despite hearing a crash, didn't see the cars (!?).

4) You are wrong, "optasia" does not appear in the Greek NT more than 4 times, see
https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/optasia.html

5) No, the traveling companions didn't see the light, otherwise we'd expect them to have become blinded no less than Paul. If the person on the witness stand accusing you of murder spoke about it in the same sort of "I understood the heavenly vision but my traveling companions didn't have the same experience" crap way Acts talks about Paul's experience on the road to Damascus, you wouldn't demand to be allowed to instruct the jury on the possibiltiy of the supernatural, you'd be arguing for charges to be dropped for lack of evidence. Worse, you were already instructed that the mere existence of a miracle report from 2000 years ago foists not the least bit of intellectual obligation upon a modern day skeptic. Yet you act like beacuse we get specific details from this story in Acts, everybody is obligated to believe it until they can refute it. Well I've got news for you, Josh McDowell was lyinig about Aritstotles Dictum. You lose. There is no rule of historiography or common sense that requires a story to be believed until proven false.


6) The Jesus you worship doesn't ever manifest himself to your physical sense of sight, AT ALL. Thus he is different than the Jesus who allegedly appeared to Paul in Acts 9. You can posit that Jesus is a special cartoon character who can change the mode of his existene at will, but expet me to just laugh and sing "highway to hell" by ACDC as I race to the nearest lesbian bar.

7) Why would Luke's consistency about any subject place the burden on the skeptic to either trust it or prove it wrong? Don't good liars also find consistency to be a desireable trait? Why should we assume Luke's consistency implies his truth? Don't liars desire consistency too? Once again, your source comes from a miracle story from 2000 year ago, and you were already instructed that nothing about a story's existence or consistency intellectually or morally obligates anybody to believe it.

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

im-skeptical said...
"The original editors found that the handwriting was that of a type from the late first early second century."

That doesn't indicate pre-Mark to me.

he js bit Tanjung about the autographs because don't have them, He's talking handwriting on copies,

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

part of his lying political rant:

"Left Billions of dollars worth of military equipment to the enemy in Afghanistan."

He thinks Biden was President when we pulled out of Afganistan.

im-skeptical said...

"part of his lying political rant:"

It says Pix at the end. I don't think it's Pix.

Anonymous said...

im-skeptical: It says Pix at the end. I don't think it's Pix.

It is not. Politically, I am with Joe.

Pix

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

thanks

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

i will say this once, the idea is discuss what's in the main blog. this space is not here so you flame my blog, nor is it here so you post a rant. Discuss the blog or shut up.

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

"I get the impression that Koester's view is that Papyrus Egerton 2 is dated before John, but after Mark, but having read all of pages 205 to 216, I will acknowledge he is not clear."


why do you think its called pre Mark redaction? because it's before Mark. Mark was said to be written first at a time when only the canonical works were considered. so Mark is the first of the canonical gospels not the gospel.

Anonymous said...

Joe: why do you think its called pre Mark redaction?

You tell me; it is a term that seems to be unique to you.

There are plenty of scholars who think there were texts prior to Mark, and obviously an oral tradition too. Whether there was a text that aimed to present the whole gospel - i.e., a history of Jesus' ministry from baptism to crucifixion via the sermon on the mount - is considerably more contentious. That is going far beyond the view that there was a pre-Markan passion narrative.


Pix
And whether Papyrus Egerton 2 was part of the work is even more speculative.

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

I took term "pre Mark redaction" from Koester in ACG

Anonymous said...

Could you please make a response to this it bothered me it's about the empty too https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/12786

Anonymous said...

You make a response to that it's an attack on the empty tomb

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

It is not an attack on the empty tomb. It's another ego Massage for Richrd carrier. He is saying "look how smart i am in putdown this kid with no credentials--I have a PhD she does not."

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

Carrier is such an obnoxious egotistical Megalomaniac that It makes me sick to red his stuff. He doesn't know enough about Biblical scholarship to go waving his PhD around in people's faces.

im-skeptical said...


What you hear is not what he actually says. It would be interesting to hear your insightful refutation of Carrier's actual arguments.

Anonymous said...

Did you make a response to this https://web.archive.org/web/20190922221520/https://bibleandclassstruggle.wordpress.com/2019/05/10/was-joseph-of-arimathea-a-follower-of-jesus/ he claims that Joseph and aramathia did not exist

Anonymous said...

What you refute some of his main arguments https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/12786