Saturday, June 14, 2008

Oldest Church Raises Problelms for Jesus "Mythers"

Photobucket
file footage (ancient church in Crete)


The Oldest known Christian church Has been found Rihab, northern Jordan, near the Syrian border. The church Dates to between AD33 to AD70. That is totally remarkable as no Christian stuff has ever been found that predates mid century.

"We have uncovered what we believe to be the first church in the world, dating from AD33 to 70," said the head of the Rihab Centre for Archaeological Studies, Abdul Qader al-Husan.

"We have evidence to believe this church sheltered the early Christians - the 70 disciples of Jesus Christ."

A mosaic found in the church describes them as "the 70 beloved by God and Divine". Mr Husan said they were believed to have fled persecution in Jerusalem and founded churches in northern Jordan.

He cited historical sources that suggest they lived and practised religious rituals in the underground church and left it only after Christianity was embraced by Roman rulers in the fourth century.

There is no clear holder of the title of oldest Christian church: various sites claim the honour without definitive evidence.


Pottery shards found suggest that Christians lived there until late Roman times. The problems this Not only does this offer proof of an organized church in the at least the middle of the first century, but also historical evidence of a Biblical event, the sending out of the Seventy. That event involved Jesus himself. Not only is it evidence of Christianity, but indirectly of Jesus as well. Jesus mythers have begun to argue that Christians themselves did not exist in the first century. They have begun to doubt Paul's existence, although no valid scholars do that. Some have argued there is no proof of organized worship of Jesus in the first century.

Mythers will respond with the hackney argument that worship of a mythical Jesus figure goes back to the times before Christ with the Dead Sea sect. Of course this is a fantasy and their attempt to have it both ways. Earl Doherty argues that the concrete historical story of Jesus life did not exist until the early second century. IF this site is really associated with the Seventy disciples that Jesus sent out that would be concrete evidence that Jesus existed and it would wreck the Jesus myth theory.

Another article about it can be found on Directions to Orthodoxy



Inside the cave a circular area of worship with stone seats separated from living quarters were found. This circular element, called an apse, is important says Dr Al-Hassan because there is only one other example of a cave with a similar feature, which was also used for Christian worship. The stone seats are believed to have been for the use of clergy.

Al-Hassan said: "We found beautiful things. I found the cemetery of this church; we found pottery shards and lamps with the inscription 'Georgeous'". There is also a tunnel that leads to a cistern which supplied water to the dwellers. The excavation of the tunnel and the cistern may yield yet more evidence about the lives of these early Christians.

"From the tunnel to the cistern is very important. We want to clean it and make an excavation inside it. We found a very old inscription beside it and coins also, and crosses made from iron."

Other experts say they are cautious about the claim. They want to examine the artifacts and obtain solid dating evidence. The earliest confirmed examples of churches date from the third century.

11 comments:

E. I. said...

I was thinking about the significance of the 70.

I wonder if these are the same that Jesus sent out in the Gospel of Luke 10:1-24 The inscriptions say they were persecuted and apparently Jesus sent them two by two...

You do have a good point in that this would be another archaeological find that supports the biblical story.

J.L. Hinman said...

htanks man

Anders said...

Hello! I found your website. My name is Anders Branderud and I am from Sweden.

Who then was the historical “Jesus”?

Did you know that the original “Matthew” was written in Hebrew and it’s called Hebrew Matityahu. It speaks about an Orthodox Jewish leader..

I am a follower of Ribi Yehoshua – Mashiakh – who practiced Torah including Halakhah with all his heart.
He was born in Betlehem 7 B.C.E . His faher name was Yoseiph and mother’s name was Mir′ yâm. He had twelve followers. He tought in the Jewish batei-haknesset (synagogues). Thousands of Jews were interested in His Torah-teachings. The “Temple” Sadducees (non-priests who bought their priest-ship in the “Temple” from the Romans, because they were assimilated Hellenist and genealogically non-priests acting as priests in the “Temple”; they were known by most 1st-century Jews as “Wicked Priests.” decided to crucify him. So they did - together with the Romans. His followers were called Netzarim (meaning offshoots [of a olive tree]) and they continued to pray with the other Jews in the synagogues.

Christianity does not teach the teachings of Ribi Yehoshua. Ribi Yehoshuas teachings were pro-Torah.

If you want to learn more click at our website www.netzarim.co.il -- than click at the lick "Christians"; click at my photo to read about what made my switch religion from Christianity to Orthodox Judaism.

Anders Branderud
Follower of Ribi Yehoshua in Orthodox Judaism

J.L. Hinman said...

Hello! I found your website. My name is Anders Branderud and I am from Sweden.

Who then was the historical “Jesus”?

Did you know that the original “Matthew” was written in Hebrew and it’s called Hebrew Matityahu. It speaks about an Orthodox Jewish leader..

No that is not true. there are several different ideas about a Hebrew original for Mat, all of them disproved. The work known as "Gospel of the Hebrews" was thought to be a Hebrew Original of Mat, that has been disproved.

I am a follower of Ribi Yehoshua – Mashiakh – who practiced Torah including Halakhah with all his heart.
He was born in Betlehem 7 B.C.E . His faher name was Yoseiph and mother’s name was Mir′ yâm. He had twelve followers. He tought in the Jewish batei-haknesset (synagogues). Thousands of Jews were interested in His Torah-teachings. The “Temple” Sadducees (non-priests who bought their priest-ship in the “Temple” from the Romans, because they were assimilated Hellenist and genealogically non-priests acting as priests in the “Temple”; they were known by most 1st-century Jews as “Wicked Priests.” decided to crucify him. So they did - together with the Romans. His followers were called Netzarim (meaning offshoots [of a olive tree]) and they continued to pray with the other Jews in the synagogues.

why do you shield the pharisees from guilt in his murder. It was they who did it. Yes, it was. They were the temple party, they where the san hedrin, the saducees had no power to do so.

the Pharisees stole the priesthood from the rightful high priest, that's why the Qumran sect fled into the desert.


Christianity does not teach the teachings of Ribi Yehoshua. Ribi Yehoshuas teachings were pro-Torah.

sure it does. you would have no idea what the taught if not for the Christian Gospels.

If you want to learn more click at our website www.netzarim.co.il -- than click at the lick "Christians"; click at my photo to read about what made my switch religion from Christianity to Orthodox Judaism.

You have been misguided. you are not an orthodox Jew, because theyw ill not follow Jesus. They call him 'the beautiful soul" which is total mocery.

I have known orthodox Rabbis who believe in Jesus. They accept Christians and they are orthodox Jews. you can be both. Christianity began as a form of Judaism.

Christianity is diverse. it is many things.

Anders said...

Ribi Yehoshua is documented to be a Ribi even in the Christian NT. If he taught something that contradicted the Pharisees teachings he wouldn’t been allowed to teach in their synagogues. It’s documented in 4Q MMT Qumran Dead Seascrolls that Pharisees followed Torah including Halakhah.
He would have been a false prophet according to Devarim (some translate it Deuteronomy) 13:1-6.
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0513.htm

If the account of the gospel of Matthew is true than he is a false prophet.
So the choice is up to you. Do you want to follow the historical Ribi Yehoshua or do you want to follow the redacted NT.

“The earliest extant Church historian, Eusebius further documented (EH III.xxvii.4-6) that the original Nәtzarim accepted only the Jewish Tana"kh as Bible and only The Netzarim ("their own") Hebrew Matityahu (NHM) as an authentic account of the life and teachings of Ribi Yәhoshua, never accepting the the 2nd-4th century, heavily gentile-redacted (Greek), NT.”

To Be a Legitimate Follower of Ribi Yehoshua Requires Following the Example Set by Ribi Yehoshua and his Immediate Followers — the Nәtzarim:
• Ribi Yehoshua Consistently Prayed in a Legitimate (Pharisaic) Beit-ha-Kәnësët of Jews and geirim — not in a gentile church
• His Nәtzarim were Recognized by a Legitimate (Orthodox) Beit-Din (under Jamliyeil), and
• Ribi Yehoshua and his Nәtzarim Functioned Exclusively In the Legitimate Jewish Community
(source Netzarim.co.il)

Paqid Yirmeyahu ha-Tzadiq is the leader of Netzarim – he is a Orthodox Jew in good standing in Moreshot Avot – an Orthodox synagogue in Rannanana in Israel.

Yes, the Christian Savior is anti-Torah.
The historical Ribi Yehoshua is pro-Torah.

No, they are surely not any Orthodox Jew who follow “Jesus”. If you have any prove – Than what’s there name and which Orthodox Synagouge do they pray in?

Anders Branderud
Follower of Ribi Yehoshua in Orthodox Judaism
If you want to learn more - click at our website http://www.netzarim.co.il — than click at the link “Christians”; click at my photo to read about what made my switch religion from Christianity to Orthodox Judaism.

J.L. Hinman said...

I've looked at that site. It's a pack of lies. these are guys who are pushing their own cultist form of Judaism and they want to hoodwink Jews who are interested in Christianity and divert them back into orthodox Judaism.

All that stuff turns on misunderstanding about the nature of Judaism. they don't understand that it was different in the time of Christ. they don't' dig that it changes like everything else. So they think if they are real orthodox and cut out of a certain mold then they will be true Jews. But they don't get that Jews were different in the time of Jesus.

I urge my readers do not go to that site, or go to it but, be aware that it's propaganda. Read Alfred Edersehim life and times of Jesus the Messiah.

he was trianed to be a Rabbi all his life. Since he was a kid. His parents were rich they hired the best tutors and teachers to teach him. He was a linguistic genius and knew more than five langauges as a little kid. They lived in Germany.

when he grew up he became a professor at both Oxford and Cambridge. He became a Christian when he was a college student. he wrote a book Life and Times Jesus the Messiah in which he shows how all the things the Talmud says about Messiah, and the OT passages that it says are about Messiah, pertain to Jesus.

J.L. Hinman said...

Anders I am writing a whole new blog piece for you. Please read it. It will be on the main blog.

Anders said...

About Pharisees:
“The Pәrushi appeared in Judaism in the Maccabean period (B.C.E. 2nd century). These early rabbis were the first to establish local Batei ha-Kәnësët to encourage local prayer patterned after the liturgy of the Beit ha-Miqdâsh. One of the reasons that Ribi Yәhoshua incurred such wrath from the Hellenist pseudo-Tzәdoqim Kohanei hâ-Rësha is because Ribi Yәhoshua was becoming so successful in popularizing the practice of praying in Batei ha-Kәnësët among the masses, which was perceived as a religious, political and financial a threat to the pseudo-Tzәdoqim who, along with the Hellenist Romans, controlled the Beit ha-Miqdâsh ha-Sheini.”

nope sorry. you need to understand history. Judaism was not then as it is now. Phraisees were teh enemies of the dead scroll sect. they were not Pharisees.t he Pharisees stole the Preistood to placate the Romans. That's why the sect was nit he desert. the teacher of righteousness that they followed was th rightful high priest, he was murdered and the priesthood stolen by a group associated witht he Macabees that latter became the Pharisees.
My comment: “Where are your sources?
Torah is eternal!! Again I say to you: Everyone who adds or a removes a commandment from Torah is a false prophet according to Devarim (some translate it Deuteronomy) 13:1-6.
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0513.htm

As I told you: “The earliest extant Church historian, Eusebius further documented (EH III.xxvii.4-6) that the original Nәtzarim accepted only the Jewish Tana"kh as Bible and only The Netzarim ("their own") Hebrew Matityahu (NHM) as an authentic account of the life and teachings of Ribi Yәhoshua, never accepting the the 2nd-4th century, heavily gentile-redacted (Greek), NT.” The Christian Matthew contradicts Torah in some points. NHM don’t. The original Hebrew version don’t contradict Torah.”

Why shall I listen to “Alfred Edersheim”.
My comment: “He taught that we didn’t need to follow all the commandments in Torah – therefore Torah declares that we should not listen to him – Devarim 13:1-6.”

“your understanding of history sux.”
My comment: “Where are your sources?”

you contradict yourself there. because if the Netzarim only accepted the tench and Torah then they did not accept the Talmud. the pharisees started the Talmud.
My comment: “Netzarim accepted Halakhah that is decided by Beit-Din in a unbroken chain from Moshe. My comment implied that Netzarim doesn’t accept Christian documents.”

You say:“sorry, you are beign decived by a group of Judaizers who are trying to destory the gospel through legalism and tricely. they seek to destrioy the chruch by tricking you into tinking that to be a follower of Jesus you have to be an orhtodox jew. hog wash!”
My comment: “Netzarim do follow the historical Ribi Yehoshua, not the Christian “Jesus”.”


“I know orthodox rabbis who believe in Jesus. they are real orothodx rabbis they believe Jesus is Messiah and they don't believe you have to be a Jew to follow Jesus, much less a Pharisee.”
My comment: “They are not accepted by an Orthodox Jewish Beit Din and hence they are not “orthodox rabbis”. They have only proclaimed themselves that –they practising displacement – pretend theology.”

“the Talmudists are liars. they stole the priesthood, they changed teh Greek translation to Hide Jesus Messianic identity and they lied about the ancient teachings.”
My comment: “Sadducees stole the priesthood; where are your sources.
Pharisees didn’t like greek. They spoke in Hebrew and arameic. The Jewish Bible is in Hebrew.”

“that is your misunderstanding. you have been lied to by unethical Talmudists.”
My comment:I can just view at your life to see that you are anti-Torah. You don’t follow Torah.

“Rabi Othneil look him up. he is orthodox, he's so orthodox that Tiva Singer has to accept him that he is a rabbi. He does not teach at a Christian curch. he teaches at a Jewish temple. you are the liar. I know this guy he is real and what I say bout him is true.”
My comment: It doesn’t matter if he calls it a “Jewish temple” – it still isn’t
Othneil isn’t accepted by an Orthodox Jewish Beit Din and he doesn’t pray in an Orthodox synagogue. If you insist on that he does that – than tell me which Orthodox synagogue he attends.


Anders Branderud
Follower of Ribi Yehoshua in Orthodox Judaism
If you want to learn more - click at our website http://www.netzarim.co.il — than click at the link “Christians”; click at my photo to read about what made my switch religion from Christianity to Orthodox Judaism.

J.L. Hinman said...

I said previously:

"nope sorry. you need to understand history. Judaism was not then as it is now. Phraisees were teh enemies of the dead scroll sect. they were not Pharisees.t he Pharisees stole the Preistood to placate the Romans. That's why the sect was nit he desert. the teacher of righteousness that they followed was th rightful high priest, he was murdered and the priesthood stolen by a group associated witht he Macabees that latter became the Pharisees."


Anders says:
My comment: “Where are your sources?

Diversity of Judaism is documented in the next post on Jesus is Messiah for the Jews and Savior of the world. the source about stealing the priesthood you can glean from the history of the high preisthood that Edersheim wirtes. It's linked in that same post. I think it was around the time of Jason and maybe Onias II.


Torah is eternal!! Again I say to you: Everyone who adds or a removes a commandment from Torah is a false prophet according to Devarim (some translate it Deuteronomy) 13:1-6.
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0513.htm


The problem is the confussion of two things:

(1) Torah the law with the written text about ;Torah.

(2) interpritation.

you need a more sophisticated understanding of reading a text. your interpretations of the text of
Troah is not absolute. your interpretation is not eternal. Its' just rooted in your cultural constructs. and you understanding.

Torah is eternal, no one person's understanding of Torah is eternal.



As I told you: “The earliest extant Church historian, Eusebius further documented (EH III.xxvii.4-6) that the original Nәtzarim accepted only the Jewish Tana"kh as Bible and only The Netzarim ("their own") Hebrew Matityahu (NHM) as an authentic account of the life and teachings of Ribi Yәhoshua, never accepting the the 2nd-4th century, heavily gentile-redacted (Greek), NT.”

If you are willing to accept Eusebius as an authority then why are you not willing to accept the other things he says? He would not agree with you in this discussion he would side with me, because he was one of those who screwed up the understanding! don't you know who he was? He was Constantine's Public Relations man!

he also said the Hebrew versions of Matt floating around were fake.

the accepted the authority of the Orthodox Bishops.




The Christian Matthew contradicts Torah in some points. NHM don’t. The original Hebrew version don’t contradict Torah.”

No he does not. He may violate your understanding of it, but that doesn't mean he violates Torah. We would have to discuss those points.

Why shall I listen to “Alfred Edersheim”.

He was a great learned scholar and trained as a Rabbi. He was an expert on the Talmud



My comment: “He taught that we didn’t need to follow all the commandments in Torah – therefore Torah declares that we should not listen to him – Devarim 13:1-6.”


NOt exactly. that's the kind of simplistic thing fundamentalists come up with because they understand the complexities of a position they don't take. So you are just asking people to become Orthodox Jewish fundamentalists.

“your understanding of history sux.”
My comment: “Where are your sources?”

On what? have not read the posts I put up? I've documented everything I said. Read the history by Edersheim, read the quote Corfeld, he was Jewish.He was Israeli.

I say:

"you contradict yourself there. because if the Netzarim only accepted the tench and Torah then they did not accept the Talmud. the pharisees started the Talmud."

My comment: “Netzarim accepted Halakhah that is decided by Beit-Din in a unbroken chain from Moshe. My comment implied that Netzarim doesn’t accept Christian documents.”

I see. I didn't catch that about Halakhah.

You say:“sorry, you are beign decived by a group of Judaizers who are trying to destory the gospel through legalism and tricely. they seek to destrioy the chruch by tricking you into tinking that to be a follower of Jesus you have to be an orhtodox jew. hog wash!”


My comment: “Netzarim do follow the historical Ribi Yehoshua, not the Christian “Jesus”.”

based upon what? there is no existing body of teachings of Jesus apart form the Gospels. What are you calling Jesus teachings? You don't have another source of them aside form the Christian Gospels.

don't say you do because you are not going to get a single major scholar working today to agree to that.

I don't have time to for the rest of this. I'll get back to it latter today.



Thanks for posting.

David V.S. said...

Anders visited my blog with the same troll-writing. My rebuttal is here.

Katoikei's Jukebox said...

What an interesting blog.
HH.