Thursday, December 20, 2007

We do not have Souls We ARE Souls!

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the soul is not like Casper



It seems almost a universal belief among atheists on the net (with some notable exceptions) that science has explained all of consciousness, reduced "mind" to an illusory nature, a side effect of brain chemistry. Atheists argue this fantasy from the stand point of the soul or the spirit, reducing dualistic aspects of religious thought to only the material realm, thus confirming their naturalism and eliminating what they see as privative religious thinking. The problem is, this is sheer fantasy. The atheist delusion that the whole of science accepts this conclusion as fact and as a matter of course is totally contradicted by the major physicists (Pennrose) and the Nobel Laureates who support many of the new forms of dualism or quantum versions of consciousness.

Atheists argue this issue on two grounds: (1) that there is no data of any kind whatsoever supporting any sort of soul or spirit; (2) that alterations to brain chemistry seem to alter consciousness in many ways. Thus they conclude that brain chemistry is what "mind" reduce to, and there is nothing more than that and there need be nothing more than that. To answer the first point first, what atheists have in mind on the issue of soul is something like Casper the friendly ghost. They seem to think that religious thinking has not advanced sufficiently to get past the vaper notion of a by gone era. But not all religious view points understand things in is way.

"Soul," in my parlance, is a veg term which is given no consistent use in the Bible. What emerges from the Biblical text most often is the idea that "soul" is a symbolic term referring to the over all life of the individual, especially with reference to the religious sphere, the telos of the individual's life goal, the after life. This is not to say that "soul" is what lives on, except in the symbolic sense. In other words, we do not have souls, we are souls. Thus the Bible speaks of a certain number of "souls" going down into Egypt, or we speak of "lost souls" and "saving souls."

It is Spirit that I think of as the thing that lives after death. Spirit is the "life force" in a metaphorical sense. Now this doesn't mean it's a mysterious energy, for I understand "spirit" in the way that Albert Schweitzer did, as mind: Spirit = mind. Mind is an immaterial aspect of brain which produces consciousness, self awareness, and that is what lives on after death. Of course the atheist will argue that the mind is a side effect of brain chemistry, below (page 3) I present a boat load of data to show that this is simply not the case. Mind transcends brain. Of course we should be prepared to assume that mind is produced by brain function, that is "caused" by having a brain; but just being caused by the brain doesn't mean that the mind is reduced to the brain. As for living without a brain, we are talking about a state of after life. Of course we shouldn't expect minds to go running around planet earth without brains while people are still alive, but in the state of after life, where one transcends the material, why not? Some Christians might raise the issue of "resurrection body," but when Jesus was still in the flesh, after the resurrection, he told Mary he had not yet ascended to the father, and implied that his body would be transformed. Paul says he was raised a life giving spirit; he doesn't say he was a life giving spirit immediately upon raising.So perhaps in the state of after life the "resurrection body" is pure spirit? That is to say, the resurrection body is pure mind; being taken up into God's presence the mind coheres through some divine measure we know not of? That seems like the simplest solution to consider to me.

As for the issue of brain chemistry and changing brain function changes consciousness, there is a problem here between correlation and causality. There is a very strong correlation between brain damage and changes of consciousness, but there is no way to prove that this is because the mind is reduce able to the brain. If the mind is dependent upon the brain as a soft ware package is dependent upon hardware, then of course damaging the hard ware would make the soft ware inaccessible, but it would not mean that soft are is reduceable to hardware.

This idea always leaves atheists cold and usually they just ignore it on message boards. But it really does answer all the problems connected with belief in life after death and soul. It is not an entity that lives separately from the body. Its' the symbol of the over all life in relation to God. Mind is spirit, this means there is no Casper like aspect of humans that lives on after death. Mind may or may not live on after death, but as mind and we can ponder "resurrection body" another time. This makes after life something of a physical thing. If we are ideas in the mind of God this is not hard to understand. All God need to do so save our maind matrix is just think about it adhering

.


My concept that we don't have souls, we are souls, that it is a metaphor for the overall life, but especially in relation to God, our relationship with god (save soul/lost soul) has tons of biblical backing:

*where people themselves are referred to as souls

word for "soul" is translated "life" in many verses.


Matthew10 uses


Mt 6:25 "For this reason I say to you, do not be anxious for your life, as to what you shall eat, or what you shall drink; nor for your body, as to what you shall put on. Is not life more than food, and the body than clo thing?

Mt 10:28 "And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (could go either way)

how could you destroy the soul in sheol (hell) if the soul lives on? It must mean our overall life on earth.



Mt 10:39 "He who has found his life shall lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake shall find it.

Mt 11:29 "Take My yoke upon you, and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart; and you shall find rest for your soul s.

Mt 12:18 "Behold, My Servant whom I HAVE CHOSEN; My Beloved in whom My soul is well-pleased; I will put My Spirit upon Him, And He shall proclaim JUSTICE TO THE Gentiles.

Mt 16:25 "For whoever wishes to save his life shall lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake shall find it.

Mt 16:26 "For what will a man be profited, if he gains the whole world, and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? (in exchange for his overall life, so it could fit this passage)

Mt 20:28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."

Mt 22:37 And He said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.'




Revelation:


Re 6:9 And when He broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the soul s of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;


Re 8:9 and a third of the creatures, which were in the sea and had life, died; and a third of the ships were destroyed.
Re 12:11 "And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even to death.


Re 16:3 And the second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became blood like that of a dead man; and every living thing in the sea died.

Re 18:13 and cinnamon and spice and incense and perfume and frankincense and wine and olive oil and fine flour and wheat and cattle and sheep, and cargoes of horses and chariots and slaves and human lives.*


Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the soul s of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


Acts



Ac 2:27 Because Thou wilt not abandon my soul to Hades, Nor ALLOW Thy Holy One to UNDERGO DECAY.

Ac 2:41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and there were added that day about three thousand soul s.*



Ac 3:23 'And it shall be that every soul that does not heed that prophet* shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.'

Ac 4:32 And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul; and not one of them claimed that any thing belonging to him was his own; but all thing s were common property to them.

Ac 7:14 "And Joseph sent word and invited Jacob his father and all his relatives to come to him, seventy-five person s in all.

Ac 14:2 But the Jews who disbelieved stirred up the mind s of the Gentiles, and embittered them against the brethren.

Ac 14:22 strengthening the soul s of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, "Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God."

Ac 15:24 "Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your soul s,

Ac 15:26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Ac 20:10 But Paul went down and fell upon him and after embracing him, he said, "Do not be troubled, for his life is in him."

Ac 20:24 "But I do not consider my life of any account as dear to myself, in order that I may finish my course, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify solemnly of the gospel of the grace of God.

Ac 27:10 and said to them, "Men, I perceive that the voyage will certainly be attended with damage and great loss, not only of the cargo and the ship, but also of our lives."

Ac 27:22 "And yet now I urge you to keep up your courage, for there shall be no loss of life among you, but only of the ship.

Ac 27:37 And all of us in the ship were two hundred and seventy-six person s.


1 Pete:

1Pe 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your soul s.

1Pe 1:22 Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your soul s for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart,

1Pe 2:11 Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts, which wage war against the soul. (either way)

1Pe 2:25 For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your soul s.

1Pe 3:20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight person s, were brought safely through the water.

1Pe 4:19 Therefore, let those also who suffer according to the will of God entrust their soul s to a faithful Creator in doing what is right. (either)


Hebrews most of these could go either way)




Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart

Heb 6:19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and steadfast and one which enters within the veil,

Heb 10:38 But My righteous one shall live by faith; And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him.

Heb 10:39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

Heb 12:3 For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you may not grow weary and lose heart.

Heb 13:17 Obey your leaders, and submit to them; for they keep watch over your soul s, as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.




I'm going to expand into a second post. But note, the alternative is to see soul as either berath or mysterious life force, or emotions. But while we can be assured that ancient people probably did understand soul as life force or something mysteirous, we need not see it that way. Part fo the time its used in the way that spirit is used; as an extention of mind, emotions, feelings, understanding, seat of motivation.








MetacrockSense of the Numinous.

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Re: Can you prove there is such a thing as a soul...
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Pslams

I am not gonig to go through and mark each one. I did that. I was three passages from the end of the list, puched the wrong button by mistake and zapped the whole post! I will not tro though it again. But I'll tell you my findings and you can corroboarate if you wish.


I did find three enstances in Pslams (the word Nephish is used something like 134 times) where it is used in the sense of "my soul which is within me." It says direclty "it is within me." But don't celibrate too soon LV, that's 3 to 200. I will admit there probably was a concept of the soul as within; but not as an amorphus gohst taking up space like a kidney. It was either that of the emotions, or the seat of intellect and feeling, or the life force, or the idea of the self.

But the vast majority of verses the word is used in the pslams to mean "my overall life being saved from death." it is contrsted with Sheol quite a bit. In other words, life vs death. And in many estnaces (over eight) it is translated directly as "life" in the sense of "save my life." Pslams are poetic, and in a great many of these estances the seeming emotional aspect of the soul is, I think, the literary device of personification.
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Ps 3:2 Man y are saying of my soul, "There is no deliverance for him in God." Selah.
Ps 6:3 And my soul is greatly dismayed; But Thou, O Lord-- how long?
Ps 6:4 Return, O Lord, rescue my soul; Save me because of Thy lovingkindness.
Ps 7:2 Lest he tear my soul like a lion, Dragging me away, while there is none to deliver.
Ps 7:5 Let the enemy pursue my soul and overtake it; And let him trample my life d own to the ground, And lay my glory in the dust. Selah.
Ps 10:3 For the wicked boasts of his heart's desire, And the greedy man curses and spurns the Lord.
Ps 11:1 For the choir director. A Psalm of David. In the Lord I take refuge; How can you say to my soul, "Flee as a bird to your mountain;
Ps 11:5 The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, And the one who loves violence His soul hates.
Ps 13:2 How long shall I take counsel in my soul, Having sorrow in my heart all the day? How long will my enemy be exalted over me?
Ps 16:10 For Thou wilt not abandon my soul to Sheol; Neither wilt Thou allow Thy Holy One to undergo decay.
Ps 17:9 From the wicked who despoil me, My dead ly enemies, who surround me.
Ps 17:13 Arise, O Lord, confront him, bring him low; Deliver my soul from the wicked with Thy sword,
Ps 19:7 The law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul; The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.
Ps 22:20 Deliver my soul from the sword, My only life from the power of the dog.
Ps 22:29 All the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship, All those who go d own to the dust will bow before Him, Even he who cannot keep his soul alive.
Ps 23:3 He restores my soul; He guides me in the paths of righteousness For His name's sake.
Ps 24:4 He who has clean hands and a pure heart, Who has not lifted up his soul to falsehood, And has not sworn deceitfully.
Ps 25:1 A Psalm of David. To Thee, O Lord, I lift up my soul.
Ps 25:13 His soul will abide in prosperity, And his descendants will inherit the land.
Ps 25:20 Guard my soul and deliver me; Do not let me be ashamed, for I take refuge in Thee.
Ps 26:9 Do not take my soul away along with sinners, Nor my life with men of bloodshed,
Ps 27:12 Do not deliver me over to the desire of my adversaries; For false witnesses have risen against me, And such as breath e out violence.
Ps 30:3 O Lord, Thou hast brought up my soul from Sheol; Thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go d own to the pit.
Ps 31:7 I will rejoice and be glad in Thy lovingkindness, Because Thou hast seen my affliction; Thou hast kn own the troubles of my soul,
Ps 31:9 Be gracious to me, O Lord, for I am in distress; My eye is wasted away from grief, my soul and my body also.
Ps 31:13 For I have heard the slander of man y, Terror is on every side; While they took counsel together against me, They schemed to take away my life.
Ps 33:19 To deliver their soul from death, And to keep them alive in famine.
Ps 33:20 Our soul waits for the Lord; He is our help and our shield.
Ps 34:2 My soul shall make its boast in the Lord; The humble shall hear it and rejoice.
Ps 34:22 The Lord redeems the soul of His servants; And none of those who take refuge in Him will be condemned.
Ps 35:3 Draw also the spear and the battle-axe to meet those who pursue me; Say to my soul, "I am your salvation."
Ps 35:4 Let those be ashamed and dishonored who seek my life; Let those be turned back and humiliated who devise evil against me.
Ps 35:7 For without cause they hid their net for me; Without cause they dug a pit for my soul.
Ps 35:9 And my soul shall rejoice in the Lord; It shall exult in His salvation.
Ps 35:12 They repay me evil for good, To the bereave men t of my soul.
Ps 35:13 But as for me, when they were sick, my clothing was sackcloth; I humbled my soul with fasting; And my prayer kept returning to my bosom.
Ps 35:17 Lord, how long wilt Thou look on? Rescue my soul from their ravages, My only life from the lions.
Ps 35:25 Do not let them say in their heart, "Aha, our desire!" Do not let them say, "We have swallowed him up!"
Ps 38:12 Those who seek my life lay snares for me; And those who seek to injure me have threatened destruction, And they devise treachery all day long.
Ps 40:14 Let those be ashamed and humiliated together Who seek my life to destroy it; Let those be turned back and dishonored Who delight in my hurt.
Ps 41:2 The Lord will protect him, and keep him alive, And he shall be called blessed upon the earth; And do not give him over to the desire of his enemies.
Ps 41:4 As for me, I said, "O Lord, be gracious to me; Heal my soul, for I have sinned against Thee."
Ps 42:1 For the choir director. A Maskil of the sons of Korah. As the deer pants for the water brooks, So my soul pants for Thee, O God.
Ps 42:2 My soul thirst s for God, for the living God; When shall I come and appear before God?
Ps 42:4 These things I remember, and I pour out my soul within me. For I used to go along with the throng and lead them in procession to the house of God, With the voice of joy and thanksgiving, a multitude keeping festival.
Ps 42:5 Why are you in despair, O my soul? And why have you become disturbed within me? Hope in God, for I shall again praise Him For the help of His presence.
Ps 42:6 O my God, my soul is in despair within me; Therefore I remember Thee from the land of the Jordan, And the peaks of Hermon, from Mount Mizar.
Ps 42:11 Why are you in despair, O my soul? And why have you become disturbed within me? Hope in God, for I shall yet praise Him, The help of my countenance, and my God.
Ps 43:5 Why are you in despair, O my soul? And why are you disturbed within me? Hope in God, for I shall again praise Him, The help of my countenance, and my God.
Ps 44:25 For our soul has sunk d own into the dust; Our body cleaves to the earth.
Ps 49:8 For the redemption of his soul is costly, And he should cease trying forever--
Ps 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol; For He will receive me. Selah.
Ps 49:18 Though while he lives he congratulates himself -- And though men praise you when you do well for yourself --
Ps 54:3 For strangers have risen against me, And violent men have sought my life; They have not set God before them. Selah.
Ps 54:4 Behold, God is my helper; The Lord is the sustainer of my soul.
Ps 55:18 He will redeem my soul in peace from the battle which is against me, For they are man y who strive with me.
Ps 56:6 They attack, they lurk, They watch my steps, As they have waited to take my life.
Ps 56:13 For Thou hast delivered my soul from death, Indeed my feet from stumbling, So that I may walk before God In the light of the living.
Ps 57:1 For the choir director; set to Al-tashheth. A Mikhtam of David, when he fled from Saul, in the cave. Be gracious to me, O God, be gracious to me, For my soul takes refuge in Thee; And in the shadow of Thy wings I will take refuge, Until destruction passes by.
Ps 57:4 My soul is among lions; I must lie among those who breath e forth fire, Even the sons of men, whose teeth are spears and arrows, And their tongue a sharp sword.
Ps 57:6 They have prepared a net for my steps; My soul is bowed d own; They dug a pit before me; They themselves have fallen into the midst of it. Selah.
Ps 59:3 For behold, they have set an ambush for my life; Fierce men launch an attack against me, Not for my transgression nor for my sin, O Lord,
Ps 62:1 For the choir director; according to Jeduthun. A Psalm of David. My soul waits in silence for God only; From Him is my salvation.
Ps 62:5 My soul, wait in silence for God only, For my hope is from Him.
Ps 63:1 A Psalm of David, when he was in the wilderness of Judah. O God, Thou art my God; I shall seek Thee earnestly; My soul thirst s for Thee, my flesh yearns for Thee, In a dry and weary land where there is no water.
Ps 63:5 My soul is satisfied as with marrow and fatness, And my mouth offers praises with joyful lips.
Ps 63:8 My soul clings to Thee; Thy right hand upholds me.
Ps 63:9 But those who seek my life, to destroy it, Will go into the depths of the earth.
Ps 66:9 Who keeps us in life, And does not allow our feet to slip.
Ps 66:16 Come and hear, all who fear God, And I will tell of what He has done for my soul.
Ps 69:1 For the choir director; according to Shoshannim. A Psalm of David. Save me, O God, For the waters have threatened my life.
Ps 69:10 When I wept in my soul with fasting, It became my reproach.
Ps 69:18 Oh draw near to my soul and redeem it; Ransom me because of my enemies!
Ps 70:2 Let those be ashamed and humiliated Who seek my life; Let those be turned back and dishonored Who delight in my hurt.
Ps 71:10 For my enemies have spoken against me; And those who watch for my life have consulted together,
Ps 71:13 Let those who are adversaries of my soul be ashamed and consumed; Let them be covered with reproach and dishonor, who seek to injure me.
Ps 71:23 My lips will shout for joy when I sing praises to Thee; And my soul, which Thou hast redeemed.
Ps 72:13 He will have com passion on the poor and needy, And the lives of the needy he will save.
Ps 72:14 He will rescue their life from oppression and violence; And their blood will be precious in his sight;
Ps 74:19 Do not deliver the soul of Thy turtledove to the wild beast; Do not forget the life of Thine afflicted forever.
Ps 77:2 In the day of my trouble I sought the Lord; In the night my hand was stretched out without weariness; My soul refused to be comforted.
Ps 78:18 And in their heart they put God to the test By asking food according to their desire.
Ps 78:50 He leveled a path for His anger; He did not spare their soul from death, But gave over their life to the plague,
Ps 84:2 My soul longed and even yearned for the courts of the Lord; My heart and my flesh sing for joy to the living God.
Ps 86:2 Do preserve my soul, for I am a godly man; O Thou my God, save Thy servant who trusts in Thee.
Ps 86:4 Make glad the soul of Thy servant, For to Thee, O Lord, I lift up my soul.
Ps 86:13 For Thy lovingkindness toward me is great, And Thou hast delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol.
Ps 86:14 O God, arrogant men have risen up against me, And a band of violent men have sought my life, And they have not set Thee before them.
Ps 88:3 For my soul has had enough troubles, And my life has drawn near to Sheol.
Ps 88:14 O Lord, why dost Thou reject my soul? Why dost Thou hide Thy face from me?
Ps 89:48 What man can live and not see death? Can he deliver his soul from the power of Sheol? Selah.
Ps 94:17 If the Lord had not been my help, My soul would soon have dwelt in the abode of silence.
Ps 94:19 When my anxious thoughts multiply within me, Thy consolations delight my soul.
Ps 94:21 They band themselves together against the life of the righteous, And condemn the innocent to death.
Ps 97:10 Hate evil, you who love the Lord, Who preserves the soul s of His godly ones; He delivers them from the hand of the wicked.
Ps 103:1 A Psalm of David. Bless the Lord, O my soul; And all that is within me, bless His holy name.
Ps 103:2 Bless the Lord, O my soul, And forget none of His benefits;
Ps 103:22 Bless the Lord, all you works of His, In all places of His dominion; Bless the Lord, O my soul!
Ps 104:1 Bless the Lord, O my soul! O Lord my God, Thou art very great; Thou art clothed with splendor and majesty,
Ps 104:35 Let sinners be consumed from the earth, And let the wicked be no more. Bless the Lord, O my soul. Praise the Lord!
Ps 105:18 They afflicted his feet with fetters, He himself was laid in irons;
Ps 105:22 To imprison his princes at will, That he might teach his elders wisdom.
Ps 106:15 So He gave them their request, But sent a wasting disease among them.
Ps 107:5 They were hungry and thirst y; Their soul fainted within them.
Ps 107:9 For He has satisfied the thirst y soul, And the hungry soul He has filled with what is good.
Ps 107:18 Their soul abhorred all kinds of food; And they drew near to the gates of death.
Ps 107:26 They rose up to the heavens, they went d own to the depths; Their soul melted away in their misery.
Ps 109:20 Let this be the reward of my accusers from the Lord, And of those who speak evil against my soul.
Ps 109:31 For He stands at the right hand of the needy, To save him from those who judge his soul.
Ps 116:4 Then I called upon the name of the Lord: "O Lord, I beseech Thee, save my life!"
Ps 116:7 Return to your rest, O my soul, For the Lord has dealt bountifully with you.
Ps 116:8 For Thou hast rescued my soul from death, My eyes from tears, My feet from stumbling.
Ps 119:20 My soul is crushed with longing After Thine ordinances at all times.
Ps 119:25 Daleth My soul cleaves to the dust; Revive me according to Thy word.
Ps 119:28 My soul weeps because of grief; Strength en me according to Thy word.
Ps 119:81 Kaph My soul languishes for Thy salvation; I wait for Thy word.
Ps 119:109 My life is continually in my hand, Yet I do not forget Thy law.
Ps 119:129 Pe Thy testimonies are wonderful; Therefore my soul observes them.
Ps 119:167 My soul keeps Thy testimonies, And I love them exceedingly.
Ps 119:175 Let my soul live that it may praise Thee, And let Thine ordinances help me.
Ps 120:2 Deliver my soul, O Lord, from lying lips, From a deceitful tongue.
Ps 120:6 Too long has my soul had its dwelling With those who hate peace.
Ps 121:7 The Lord will protect you from all evil; He will keep your soul.
Ps 123:4 Our soul is greatly filled With the scoffing of those who are at ease, And with the contempt of the proud.
Ps 124:4 Then the waters would have engulfed us, The stream would have swept over our soul;
Ps 124:5 Then the raging waters would have swept over our soul."
Ps 124:7 Our soul has escaped as a bird out of the snare of the trapper; The snare is broken and we have escaped.
Ps 130:5 I wait for the Lord, my soul does wait, And in His word do I hope.
Ps 130:6 My soul waits for the Lord More than the watch men for the morning; Indeed, more than the watch men for the morning.
Ps 131:2 Surely I have composed and quieted my soul; Like a weaned child rests against his mother, My soul is like a weaned child within me.
Ps 138:3 On the day I called Thou didst answer me; Thou didst make me bold with strength in my soul.
Ps 139:14 I will give thanks to Thee, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Thy works, And my soul knows it very well.
Ps 141:8 For my eyes are toward Thee, O God, the Lord; In Thee I take refuge; do not leave me defenseless.
Ps 142:4 Look to the right and see; For there is no one who regards me; There is no escape for me; No one cares for my soul.
Ps 142:7 "Bring my soul out of prison, So that I may give thanks to Thy name; The righteous will surround me, For Thou wilt deal bountifully with me."
Ps 143:3 For the enemy has persecuted my soul; He has crushed my life to the ground; He has made me dwell in dark places, like those who have long been dead.
Ps 143:6 I stretch out my hands to Thee; My soul longs for Thee, as a parched land. Selah.
Ps 143:8 Let me hear Thy lovingkindness in the morning; For I trust in Thee; Teach me the way in which I should walk; For to Thee I lift up my soul.
Ps 143:11 For the sake of Thy name, O Lord, revive me. In Thy righteousness bring my soul out of trouble.
Ps 143:12 And in Thy lovingkindness cut off my enemies, And destroy all those who afflict my soul; For I am Thy servant.
Ps 146:1 Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord, O my soul!

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MetacrockSense of the Numinous.

Edited by: Metacrock at: 11/1/05 8:56 am

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Re: Can you prove there is such a thing as a soul...
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Genesis:




Verse Count: 32
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Ge 1:20 Then God said, "Let the waters teem with swarms of living creature s, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens."

Ge 1:21 And God created the great sea monsters, and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good.

Ge 1:24 Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creature s after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind"; and it was so.

Ge 1:30 and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food"; and it was so.

Ge 2:7 Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breath ed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Ge 2:19 And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name.

Ge 9:4 "Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.

Ge 9:5 "And surely I will require your life blood; from every beast I will require it. And from every man, from every man's brother I will require the life of man.

Ge 9:10 and with every living creature that is with you, the birds, the cattle, and every beast of the earth with you; of all that comes out of the ark, even every beast of the earth.

Ge 9:12 And God said, "This is the sign of the covenant which I am making between Me and you and every living creature that is with you, for all successive generations;

Ge 9:15 and I will remember My covenant, which is between Me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and never again shall the water become a flood to destroy all flesh.

Ge 9:16 "When the bow is in the cloud, then I will look upon it, to remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth."

Ge 12:5 And Abram took Sarai his wife and Lot his nephew, and all their possessions which they had accumulated, and the person s which they had acquired in Haran, and they set out for the land of Canaan; thus they came to the land of Canaan.

Ge 12:13 "Please say that you are my sister so that it may go well with me because of you, and that I may live on account of you."

Ge 14:21 And the king of Sodom said to Abram, "Give the people to me and take the goods for yourself."

Ge 17:14 "But an uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant."

Ge 19:17 And it came about when they had brought them outside, that one said, "Escape for your life! Do not look behind you, and do not stay any where in the valley; escape to the mountains, lest you be swept away."

Ge 19:19 "Now behold, your servant has found favor in your sight, and you have magnified your lovingkindness, which you have sh own me by saving my life; but I cannot escape to the mountains, lest the disaster overtake me and I die;

Ge 19:20 now behold, this t own is near enough to flee to, and it is small. Please, let me escape there (is it not small?) that my life may be saved."

Ge 23:8 And he spoke with them, saying, "If it is your wish for me to bury my dead out of my sight, hear me, and approach Ephron the son of Zohar for me,

Ge 27:4 and prepare a savory dish for me such as I love, and bring it to me that I may eat, so that my soul may bless you before I die."

Ge 27:19 And Jacob said to his father, "I am Esau your first-born; I have done as you told me. Get up, please, sit and eat of my game, that you may bless me."

Ge 27:25 So he said, "Bring it to me, and I will eat of my son's game, that I may bless you." And he brought it to him, and he ate; he also brought him wine and he drank.

Ge 27:31 Then he also made savory food, and brought it to his father; and he said to his father, "Let my father arise, and eat of his son's game, that you may bless me."

Ge 32:30 So Jacob named the place Peniel, for he said, "I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been preserved."

Ge 34:3 And he was deeply attracted to Dinah the daughter of Jacob, and he loved the girl and spoke tenderly to her.

Ge 34:8 But Hamor spoke with them, saying, "The soul of my son Shechem longs for your daughter; please give her to him in marriage.

Ge 35:18 And it came about as her soul was departing (for she died), that she named him Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin.

Ge 36:6 Then Esau took his wives and his sons and his daughters and all his household, and his lives stock and all his cattle and all his goods which he had acquired in the land of Canaan, and went to another land away from his brother Jacob.

Ge 37:21 But Reuben heard this and rescued him out of their hands and said, "Let us not take his life."

Ge 42:21 Then they said to one another, "Truly we are guilty concerning our brother, because we saw the distress of his soul when he pleaded with us, yet we would not listen; therefore this distress has come upon us."

Ge 44:30 "Now, therefore, when I come to your servant my father, and the lad is not with us, since his life is bound up in the lad's life,

Ge 46:15 These are the sons of Leah, whom she bore to Jacob in Paddan-aram, with his daughter Dinah; all his sons and his daughters number ed thirty-three.

Ge 46:18 These are the sons of Zilpah, whom Laban gave to his daughter Leah; and she bore to Jacob these sixteen person s.

Ge 46:22 These are the sons of Rachel, who were born to Jacob; there were fourteen person s in all.

Ge 46:25 These are the sons of Bilhah, whom Laban gave to his daughter Rachel, and she bore these to Jacob; there were seven person s in all.

Ge 46:26 All the person s be longing to Jacob, who came to Egypt, his direct descendants, not including the wives of Jacob's sons, were sixty-six person s in all,

Ge 46:27 and the sons of Joseph, who were born to him in Egypt were two; all the person s of the house of Jacob, who came to Egypt, were seventy.

Ge 49:6 "Let my soul not enter into their council; Let not my glory be united with their assembly; Because in their anger they slew men, And in their self- will they lamed oxen.

5 comments:

Unknown said...

So, in summation, your argument for the existence of a soul is first dependent on redefining "soul", not as most theists believe as a spiritual part of the consciousness, but as life itself. And then you redefine "spirit" as just meaning mind the way scientists mean it, as an output of the brain. Given these definitions of "soul" and "spirit", I'd have no reason to argue that they don't exist, but these are equivocations and certainly you mean for readers to infer that they mean more than just "life" and "mind" because otherwise you'd just stick to those more mundane terms. I don't believe in "soul" or "spirit" in the way that they are generally meant by theists, but I do believe in "life" and "mind".

The real sticking point is where you claim that the mind lives on after death, and your defense for this is "why not"? You don't seem to understand that, in making a positive claim, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that the mind actually does continue after death. I would personally argue that the mind doesn't continue after death because the brain ceases to function and that is the organ responsible for the existence of the mind. Of course you object to the idea that the brain is solely responsible for the mind because (despite your PhD), you don't seem to understand what science is, so I'm going to have to digress a little bit to remediate on what science is so that you can follow why science proves that mind comes from the brain.

Science is a method for determining causation by comparing two groups, a control group and an experimental group. If we want to prove that greater speed will win a race, for example, then you have two racers with every single thing in common except for one aspect -- the "variable" -- and then you see whether that variable changes the outcome. So if two racers are alike in every way except that one has a greater speed, and then you observe that the greater speed causes that racer to win, then you've proven that greater speed *causes* a race to be won. Science depends on the existence of both groups and on having only one variable. You may be familiar with the story of the tortoise and the hare which tries to prove that "slow and steady" (two variables) wins the race, and yet we both know that "fast and steady" will be even more effective because we already know that greater speed will win the race and this fable was a case of bad science.

So how do we know that the mind is the result of the brain? In the case of brain damage, the mind is changed. The control group is every brain out there that functions nominally, and the variable is whatever damage a brain has sustained. If the mind changes, and the only difference between a working brain and a damaged brain is that damage, then the damage *caused* the mind to change. The reason why no scientist believe that a spirit causes a mind is because there's no control group to demonstrate this, two minds with differences due to differences in "spirits". If you have to look at the mind in order to figure out if there is "spirit damage", at best you have a circular argument, but *even this* isn't something that you or any other theist has posited to exist or account for how we know that there is a "spirit". And you've never observed a spirit beyond death, so that belief is equally unscientific. They'll give out PhD's to just about anyone, huh?

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

Your first paragraph the assumption you make in that paraphrase contradicts your second paragraph. If I am merely renaming things you know exist then I can't be making a positive claim that needs defending. The only defense needed or those ideas are not scientific evidence but textual criticism which I have already offered.

My reason for life after death is not "why not" but that it is affirmed by the christian tradition. The affirmation of that tradition is vouchsafed by rationally warranted God arguments, which you are not intellectual enough to understand let alone refute, in any case that's not at issue here.

Mind being the "result" (by that you probably mean "product") of brain does not negate either soul as life or spirit as mind. Thus it has no relevance here, Mind being product of brain does not mean it's predicable to brain, It;s an emergent property.

Unknown said...

It would be true that you don't need to prove the existence of "mind" or "life", as we both agree that these things exist -- in fact, I imagine that nearly everyone agrees that they exist. But you equivocated the terms "soul" and "spirit" to mean these things. Are you familiar with "equivocation"? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivocation Simply redefining these terms is not enough if you mean for a reader to leave with the impression that a "soul" or "spirit" exists.

It's like as if you asked me to prove that God is nonexistent, and I redefine "nonexistent" to mean "not physically in the room with you". You would, after looking around the room, agree that "God is nonexistent" by my special definition of the terms, but I wouldn't exactly have convinced you of what I'm clearly trying to convey with those words, would I? That's equivocation.

I would prefer evidence of life after death outside of "the Christian tradition", because I am not a Christian. To make such an argument to me would be like if I tried to prove that eternal souls do not exist by quoting Buddhist holy books (which is, in fact, what the Vedas teach Buddhists -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatta#Anattā_in_the_Pali_canon) you would not be convinced because you don't presuppose the Buddhist holy books to be true. It would be insulting to call you "not intellectual enough" to understand the Buddhist beliefs about the soul (or lack of it) just because you *disagree*, and it is similarly insulting to downplay my intellectual capacity simply because I think that a holy book full of contradictions such as yours is not to be trusted at face value. Besides, this is yet another logical fallacy known as Ad Hominem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem). For a PhD, you commit an awful lot of logical fallacies in your arguments.

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

Unknown said...
It would be true that you don't need to prove the existence of "mind" or "life", as we both agree that these things exist -- in fact, I imagine that nearly everyone agrees that they exist. But you equivocated the terms "soul" and "spirit" to mean these things. Are you familiar with "equivocation"? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivocation Simply redefining these terms is not enough if you mean for a reader to leave with the impression that a "soul" or "spirit" exists.

First of all you are misstating my view on both soul and spirit. I don't just equate soul with life force, but is an abstract symbol of one's relationship with God, the overall direction of one's life in relation to God, this paragraph sassy it clearly"

_________________
""Soul," in my parlance, is a veg term which is given no consistent use in the Bible. What emerges from the Biblical text most often is the idea that "soul" is a symbolic term referring to the over all life of the individual, especially with reference to the religious sphere, the telos of the individual's life goal, the after life. This is not to say that "soul" is what lives on, except in the symbolic sense. In other words, we do not have souls, we are souls. Thus the Bible speaks of a certain number of "souls" going down into Egypt, or we speak of "lost souls" and "saving souls.""

___________________


It's like as if you asked me to prove that God is nonexistent, and I redefine "nonexistent" to mean "not physically in the room with you". You would, after looking around the room, agree that "God is nonexistent" by my special definition of the terms, but I wouldn't exactly have convinced you of what I'm clearly trying to convey with those words, would I? That's equivocation.

No it's not I demonstrated clearly that the use I make of it is commonly used in the Bib.e.

I would prefer evidence of life after death outside of "the Christian tradition", because I am not a Christian. To make such an argument to me would be like if I tried to prove that eternal souls do not exist by quoting Buddhist holy books (which is, in fact, what the Vedas teach Buddhists --

I am a Christian so I argue fro the Christian tradition


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatta#Anattā_in_the_Pali_canon) you would not be convinced because you don't presuppose the Buddhist holy books to be true. It would be insulting to call you "not intellectual enough" to understand the Buddhist beliefs about the soul (or lack of it) just because you *disagree*, and it is similarly insulting to downplay my intellectual capacity simply because I think that a holy book full of contradictions such as yours is not to be trusted at face value. Besides, this is yet another logical fallacy known as Ad Hominem

That's not the reason.It's because so much of your post trades on igorance and you are arrogant talking like you are so erudite you clearly not well read i Christian theology, then you talk I have some kid of obligation to work i the medium of other faiths.There is no obligation to work within the parlance of a faith to which I do not adhere.I do show other faiths respect,



(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem). For a PhD, you commit an awful lot of logical fallacies in your arguments.


I have omitted any fallacy, what you are callig fallacies are based your ignoranceof real academic theology,


7:03 PM

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

The first ignorant assumption you make is the idea that soul is always thought to be the sort of ghost in the machine of the conventional usage. such that if I don't adhere to it then I must be pulling some kind of scam. It doesn't take that much learning to know that the Bible uses those terms in no standard way. It covers abouit two thousand years and several different cultures.

no 2: " And then you redefine "spirit" as just meaning mind the way scientists mean it, as an output of the brain. "

Scientists are dividing on the concept of mind. Some try to argue there is no mind, some try to argue it's epiphehomena,some try to support the notion pf a non physical dimension related to consciousnesses, about 40% of philosophers of mind agree,

no 3 trying to explaimn tome what equivocation means makes me think you just learned what it means and are anxious to use it in a sentence.


no 4 another short shrift to my view of spirit, you ignore everything I said in defining spirit:
________________
"It is Spirit that I think of as the thing that lives after death. Spirit is the "life force" in a metaphorical sense. Now this doesn't mean it's a mysterious energy, for I understand "spirit" in the way that Albert Schweitzer did, as mind: Spirit = mind. Mind is an immaterial aspect of brain which produces consciousness, self awareness, and that is what lives on after death. "
____________________


Tnere's lot more going on there than just what scientists say about mind. Notice the references to German philosophy. It's this simplification of my views that puts me out of sorts. There's more but forgetit,

Look you are probably a good guy and you are bright. Let's just give each other a break. I would love to see you participate in the up to date version of the blog.

Here:
l
http://metacrock.blogspot.com/2018/06/belief-evidence-and-world-view.htm

2
http://metacrock.blogspot.com/2018/06/trumps-war-on-breathing.html