Wednesday, September 19, 2007

Knock Knock Knocking on Heaven's Door: Jesus and Boy Dylan

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This discussion originated on a message board right after I saw the following movie.

On saturday night I watched the Martin Scorsese film No Direction HomeAmerican Master's documentary on PBS For some reason it made me think about what the Hippies thought of Jesus. Why? I didn't know at first, Dylan doesn't often make me think of Jesus. I realize now it was because they played a bit of the Woody Guthrie song z"Jesus Christ"

Jesus Christ was a man who traveled through the land
Hard working man and brave
He said to the rich, "Give your goods to the poor."
So they laid Jesus Christ in his grave.



I began to think, even though I was really a teen in the early 70s, I identified with the 60s. The 60s bled over into the early 70s and I was more aware than most children my age of hippies and protests and issues like Vietnam. I remember distinctly when I was in 6th grade telling my mother when she picked me up form School "we have to get home so I can see the news, I have to root for SDS today, find out how they did at the siege of Columbia."

and I did root for them too. I would chant "Hey hey LBJ how many kids did you kill today" along with the news, and my father, a die-hard LBJ fan would get upset (we are from Texas).

We hippies and 60s leftists liked Jesus. The modern atheists seem to hate him. We made him our own, you make him your enemy. modern atheists want to deny his existence, they try to minimize the value of his teachings, they want to make as though he was unremarkable, no reason why anyone should remember him,if he existed at all. But not us in the 60sl. The Hippies and the revolutionaries, even in our Marxist inspired fever made Jesus our own!

We did not deny his existed, we used him as an example to say "hey you are not living to the standards of the guy you claim to follow Mr and Mrs average bourgeois American. We said hey Jesus was a hippie like us. He had long hair. Even in our dope smoking, communist inspired LSD crazed revolutionary zeal many of us saw ourselves as the true Christians. Christians were leading the civil rights movement and the anti-war movement. we didn't see Christianity as the enemy some object to hatred that we want to destroy.

We were the true Christians because we saw how the teachings of Jesus about love and acceptance and forgiveness and getting away form unjust unfair traditions that bind people could applied to our situation an and back up the social movement we were trying to take part in.

Why don't you guys make Jesus your own? Why can't you see the importance eof Jesus and his nature as revolutionary figure? You are always harping on how the OT is so bad, but Jesus took that repressive backward ideology and made it into a revelation that said use love and non violence to change the world.

It occurs to me that we had a social cement and you guys don't. We had the music, we had the causes, the war the civil rights, you guys don't have that. You have internet, individual stuff that brings you together as a loose collection of people with some overlapping interests but not a social cement to bind together a movement.

We wanted to change the world. You guys just wanted to blog about it.

I am not trying to put you down in saying hat. I'm just trying to understand where you are coming from.

The attitude of hippies and some kinds of revolutionary politicos I was talking about was really the beginning of the Jesus movement. I just think its' so odd that we took Jesus made him own and built a movement around him, and you guys reject him but you have no unifying cement to hold you together.

The fundies turn it into a question of literalism. He must have said and done all the tings recorded. and the discussion centers on that, did he really feed the crowd with the fishes and raise so an so form the dead and so on. For us none of that was important and I guess with my liberal thing I find myself drawing upon some of those early outlooks.

What really matters is what the resurrection tells us about what God will do in your life, not the literalism of the event in history. The attitude of understanding that the two major laws are about loving God and loving your neighbor is more important than knowing if Jesus really said that and where he was when he said it.

I wish you could catch the thrill of understanding Jesus as a revolutionary figure. If only he had had a guitar and harmonica.

I was astonished by the attitude of these atheists. They have no cultural sense of the greatness of Jesus at all. They don't like him. One of them had the audacity to say that Jesus had nothing original to say. He only only anticipated Kantian ethics by 1900 years. One of them responded, "O that wasn't original., other people said that he could have gotten that from Buddha or Confusions." Yes, if he wanted to go to India or China in the first century!

Jesus is the cultural icon of goodness, or the good man. IF we loose our respect for that we sick, deeply sick. These atheists aren't just skeptical they totally cynical. They just don't believe in anything. I mean by that not that that they have no ideas of the good, but that they don't believe anything can be good for them, they without hope.

Then I had to turn around and defend Bob Dylan! One guy thought Joni Mitchell was better than Dylan! He had the audacity to say Joni's rhymes were sophistcated and Dylan's weren't. Yea right:

flows and rows of angel hair
and ice cream castles in the air
and featured canyons everywhere


OOO so terribly sophisticated.

Make that cynical and bad taste.


__________________



JESUS CHRIST
(Woody Guthrie)


Jesus Christ was a man who traveled through the land
Hard working man and brave
He said to the rich, "Give your goods to the poor."
So they laid Jesus Christ in his grave.
Jesus was a man, a carpenter by hand
His followers true and brave
One dirty little coward called Judas Iscariot
Has laid Jesus Christ in his grave
He went to the sick, he went to the poor,
And he went to the hungry and the lame;
Said that the poor would one day win this world,
And so they laid Jesus Christ in his grave.
He went to the preacher, he went to the sheriff,
Told them all the same;
Sell all of your jewelry and give it to the Poor,
But they laid Jesus Christ in his grave.
When Jesus came to town, the working folks around,
Believed what he did say;
The bankers and the preachers they
nailed him on a cross,
And they laid Jesus Christ in his grave.
Poor working people, they follered him around,
Sung and shouted gay;
Cops and the soldiers, they nailed him in the air,
And they nailed Jesus Christ in his grave.
Well the people held their breath when
[ Lyrics provided by www.mp3lyrics.org ]
they heard about his death,
And everybody wondered why;
It was the landlord and the soldiers that he hired.
That nailed Jesus Christ in the sky.
When the love of the poor shall one day turn to hate.
When the patience of the workers gives away
"Would be better for you rich if
you never had been born"
So they laid Jesus Christ in his grave.
This song was written in New York City
Of rich men, preachers and slaves
Yes, if Jesus was to preach like
he preached in Galillee,
They would lay Jesus Christ in his grave.
sung to Jesse James

Tuesday, September 18, 2007

Thank you

This blog will resume normal programing tomorrow, or maybe today.


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Someone has given a generous contribution to save my legs and I thank you.

I just want to point out that if everyone who reads this blog on as semi regular basis would give two dollars a month, that's two cups of coffee each month, my bandaging needs would be met!

thank you.

click here to give

Saturday, September 15, 2007

Save Metacrock's Legs

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hospital where I was first treated (Plano, Tx)


I have asked for money before, but I hate doing it and try not to make a habit of it. I only did it to save my house so my brother and I would not be homeless. Now we have an equally compelling crisis. I helped a friend get her lights turned back on, now we don't have enough to keep our lights on. Moreover,I can't buy my bandages.

I need bandages everyday because I have problem called Venus ulcer disease. It means that the circulatory system in my legs has packed up and I am not getting blood back up form my ankles to the rest of the body. The consequences is that I have big gaping sores all over my legs and the skin rots and leaks "ouk." That's not a technical term. The technical term is "interstitial mass." But it's ouk. It's gross, my pants and shoes get all messy unless I bandage my legs.





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these are not my acutal legs but they did like this at one time.
They don't look this bad now due to weight loss and proper care.

Here's an article about it but the pictures are kind of gross
The major problem is infection.IF I get a bad infection my legs might have to be cut off. I am not exaggerating.

I am supposed to bandages everyday but I can't afford to. I have to use abd pads with ace bandages around them for compression. I only bandages every two or three days because I just can't afford the bandages.

I have been to churches and ministries and charities,to government social workers, the visiting nurses; there are no structures to pay for his problem. My family can only help me now and then.

Now I hate asking but you know, there areprofessional bloggers who ask their readership to support them entirely so that they are independent and only blog for a living.


I'm asking the regular readers of kottke.org (that's you!) to become micropatrons of kottke.org by contributing a moderate sum of money to help enable me to edit/write/design/code the site for one year on a full-time basis. If you find kottke.org valuable in any way, please consider giving whatever you feel is appropriate.




I just don't think I have that much to say. No blog is that valuable when there are million others for free. On the other hand, I am only asking for help with one bill and bandages.

It's a truly disgusting feeling to have ouk dripping down your leg into your shoe, and it really can cause infection not to bandage. Infection would result in amputation.

Please click on the link to the left side bar under "website links" "save Meta's legs" or go here. This is the link to a button where you can donate through my pay pal account.




from Pub med
Quality of life of people with venous leg ulcers: a comparison of the discriminative and responsive characteristics of two generic and a disease specific instruments.
Iglesias CP, Birks Y, Nelson EA, Scanlon E, Cullum NA.

Department of Health Sciences, University of York, North Yorkshire, UK. cpiu1@york.ac.uk

BACKGROUND: Venous leg ulcers are an important source of morbidity in society. Measuring the impact of leg ulcers on quality of life is important within clinical and economic evaluations.


I really need help and there is no source that it is coming from.

Venus ulcer disease is incurable, so I've been told by the wound care specialists. I have seen hints of cures on the net, but its so extremely expensive to even go to a wound care specialist. At one hospital near by its' $300. just to have an office visit! It's a painful condition. I am always in pain and no one really cares enough to just shell out $50.00 or so bucks a month to help keep my legs bandaged.

This is all I'm asking, just from some basic help so I can treat my legs and save them and to keep my lights on. In Texas summer you can't survive without air conditioning.

Thank you

Friday, September 14, 2007

Block Takes on Doherty

Block's Blog he is going through Dougherty's Jesus Puzzle 12 points one at a time.

Please don't miss this. I am looking most forward to it. I plan to keep us all posted.

Thursday, September 13, 2007

Science vs Religion: Ignorance is the Soil through Which Hate Works into the Grass Roots

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I recently had a heated exchange on a board with an atheist. I don't remember who but I take his comments to be emblematic of the basic attitude of modernity toward religion. It's the old "science gives tangible effects" ploy:

Quote:
Proof? Use demonstrable results as a proxy for the congruence of a belief system with reality. The rationalist world view has produced. In spades. Over centuries. Uncountable times. Medicine, computers, physics, engineering, cars, planes, trains, food supply, energy....on and on and on. Man's living conditions vastly improved...

.


This understanding of faith is naive and simplistic. This person's understanding of the history of ideas is even worse. First, it is not the rationalist view that has produced anything. Rationalism was destroyed by Kant. It is so extremely naive and simplistic to think that all modern thought amounts to is how to build bridges. That's the kind of thinking that perished with the 1939 world's fair.

Secondly, you want to pretend that skepticism and atheism are the subtext to science and are the true benefactors in giving us this stream of material gadgets. But he totally ignores the fact that many of the major scientific discoveries that gave us a modern world were made by Christians, or at least by those with some tangential religious ideas. I think more by Christians than any other group.


Quote:
How does the theistic world view compare in delivering results? Nada. Zero. Zilch. Silence. Christians drinking poison, handling snakes and driving out demons? Christians can't even do what the book explicitly states they should be able to do, never mind the uselessness of these claims. Predict an eclipse? Can't do it. Regrow a severed limb? Can't do it.


I am not just using my blog as a bully pulpit to fire back at this guy while he can't post. Don't think I didn't give him something to think about on that boards. But I think these "ideas," these rantings express something we can't forget about the way a lot of people view religion now days. First of all, he wants to compare results between religion and science. He tags this "rationalism" vs "religion" so for him religion is faith and faith is irrational. I have already dealt with that none recently. Science and religion exist for difference reasons. Its' absurd to compare their results. That would be like saying "the red cross has not cleared a single square foot of land for the completion of the new freeway, it's a total failure as a humanitarian organization."

Those who claim that the lack of scientific validation for the truth claims of religion fail to understand the nature of scientific inquiry. Rather, they are imposing a philosophical point of view which pretends to be "science." These people are not scientific, but "scientistic." The transform a procedural methodology, material reductionism, into a metaphysics, that of materialist reductionism. The scientific methodological procedure proceeds from the notion that we gain understanding of the material realm by breaking down its components into their smallest aggregate parts to understand how they function. The philosophy of reductionism tries to reduce everything to the material realm. The philosophical reductionist says that because we know that material effects occur due to material causes, there must be noting but material causes. Anything that is not explained by a material cause is automatically excluded from reality. In this way they assume that miracles cannot accrue, and that God must not exist, because after all, there can be nothing beyond material cause and effect. C.Science is not the enemy of religious belief. In fact many modern greats in science are Christians.

Secondly, somehow our friendly atheist seems to think that snake handling sects are a major part of the religious world. I wonder if that isn't indicative of ignorance of religious groups? As for his final taught: "Christians can't even do what the book explicitly states they should be able to do, never mind the uselessness of these claims. Predict an eclipse? Can't do it. Regrow a severed limb? Can't do it." I don't

I really don't know where the Bible says we should be able to do either of these feats. I think any Christian who takes an astronomy class could predict an eclipse. Where does the bible say we should be able to regrow severed limbs? Atheists can't do that. why has that become the litmus test for religious truth? His vaunted science can't do that.





Quote:
"Truth" does not need to be believed. No amount of fasting, cajoling, praying, wishing or hoping is necessary for any natural law to operate as it does.


we don't pray for natural law to work.

No banging of pots are required to get the Sun to shine after an eclipse. No heartfelt prayers are required to get the car motor to turn over. Just chemistry and physics.


These aren't things we would pray about anyway. This person is clearly venting. What amazes and amazes me is the sort up anger, frustration and hated these guys have. They are effecting a cultrual change at the grass roots level. we might be watching the beginning demise of religious consciousness and it's odd that we don't have the balls to even to do anything about it. I do not think they can succeed in destroying conscientiousness of God. As Andrew Newberg said "God wont go away" because he's hard wired into our consciousness. What they will probably succeed in doing is in destroying the consciousness necessary to hold together the social fabric. With Christianity gone as a social institution a lot of people will be lost and will live miserable lives for their lack of hope and value. All because ignorant people rant and rave and Church is too complacent to bother learning anything so they can't deal with it.

This is something I shot back at him:

the idea that physics = truth is stupid. science is a social constrict, you are merely imposing a truth regime that you take for "truth" because you don't understand how ideas work and you don't understand how science works.




Quote:
Theists wish they were on the same playing field. They are not. Theism is intellectually bankrupt.


This is comging from a guy whose read a single theologian, who thinks science is the only form of knowledge but knows so little about science he thinks the universe is like a seed inside the singularity wasting eternally to pop out. He knows so little about intellectual history that he thinks science is rationalism.Almost every major modern thinker has been a Christian or religious. Almost no atheist in the pile. He think the playing field is science and the production of modern conveniences. So you don't even know where the ball park is. The only product of modernity for these scietnistic types is gadgets and tangible scientific products to buy.

Dawkins is a scientist but he has not any major discoveries.
Sagan was a nice guy and a fine scientist but not a great one, no major discoveries (temature of Venus, good but not in the league with Newton or Boyle).

Modern science was basically invented by Christianity. It was certainly nurtered by it.


There are those who try to extend scientific knowledge beyond its proper realm, that of explaining the workings of the physical world, and to forge a philosophical pretense. This pretense works on two levels. First, it is grounded in the material. It argues that since science tells us that there are natural causes for all effects, that there must be noting beyond the physical world. Since there is nothing beyond the physical world it is "unscientific" to believe in God. They understand this term "unscientific" to mean "untrue" or "unbelievable." In realty, while it may be "unscientific" in the sense that it is not something that can be proven through scientific means, that does not equate to "untrue." Science and religious belief function in two totally different domains. Religious belief functions to integrate the individual into the universe in such a way as to offer a sense of unity and belonging. Science functions to explain the way the universe works physically. These are two different tasks, and one cannot presume upon the other. The different domains model is not the only way to understand the relation between science and religious belief, and I do not support an absolutist model. I think the two do overlap in certain areas, especially where religious believers claim that God Affects the world; for example with claims of miracles. Nor should my comments be construed as claiming that religious claims of miracles should not be investigated.B.Science or Scientism?



Science owes Christianity Debt

All of the early modern scientific greats were Christians, and not merely because "everyone was," most of them (Newton especially) were exptremely devout (even the persecuted Galileo).But it is not only because of the rise of great Christian thinkers that science owes its birth to Christianity. It is also because of the universe involved in Greek science and in Christian science. R.G. Collingwood, one of the great historians of science, and Alfred North Whitehead, one of the great thinkers, philosophers, and historians of science in the 20th century both reached this conclusion. Collingwood reprises three major periods in the development of science:

(1) Greek: Nature permeated by mind, knowable because unchanging; two views:

(a) atomists; it's all the same substance all the down.

(b) idealists; it' all appearances of same principles; sameness in dealing thwith change, change is just different kind of permanence, appearance or mode of permanence.

(2) Renaissance (really early modern)[correlation between history and the way science came to be done.

Antithetical to Greeks, in Copernicus (1473-1543) telesio (1508-80) and Bruno (1548-1600). Denial of organic model, rise of mechanistic. Nature doesn't order itself. Christian view, product of creator, analogy between God and universe, watch maker and watch. For Greeks intelligence was nature's own, for PR was product of divine intelligence. Focus shifts from nature to mind. Rationality imposed from without [regularity due to natural laws] imposed from without. In other words, because the Greek incorporated mind into nature and fussed the distinction they were not able to understand the universe as rational and independent of human observations. Because Christianity saw the world as a machine and creation of a rational machine maker they were able to develop the mechanistic model which led Newton to invent scientific reductionism and that essentially is the basis of modern science (and here I speak of methodological reductionism and I do not use the term in the pejorative at all!).

The myths about religion and its relation to science are part of the cultural battle for the hearts and souls of humanity. The force of hate is growing in the world and that hate is super heated toward Christianity for verity of reasons. We have to combat it wtih truth. We have to start dealing with these misconceptions a forceful and radical way. We can only do this by educating ourselves.

Sources and other books of interest:



Fuchs, Stephan. The Professional Quest for Truth: A social Theory of Science and Knowledge. State University of New York Press, 1992.

Gay, Peter. The Enlightenment: The Rise of Modern Paganism. New York: W.W. Norton & co. 1966.

Hacking, Ian. The Emergence of Probability: A Philosophical Study of Early Ideas about Probability, Induction, and Statistical Inference. London: Cambridge University Press, 1975.

Jacob, Margaret C. The Newtonians and the English Revolution: 1689-1720. Ithica New York: Cornell University Press, 1976.

James, William, The Varieties of Religious Experience.

Lukes, Steven. "On the Social Determination of Truth," Modes of Thought: Essays on Thinking in Western and Non-Western Societies. ed. Robin Horton and Ruth Finnegan. London: Faber & Faber, 1973.

Kuhn, Thomas S. The Structure of Scientific Revolutions. Second edition, Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1970 (originally 1962).

Popkin, Richard H. The History of Skepticism From Erasmus To Spinoza. Berkeley, Los Angeles, London: University of California Press, revised edition, 1979 (original 1948).

Editor. "Introduction," The Philosophy of The 16th and 17th Centuries. gen. ed. Paul edwards and Richard Popkin. New York: The Free Press, Div. of Macmillon, 1966.

Shapin, Steven. A Social History of Truth: Civility and Science in Seventeenth Century England. Chicago and London: University of Chicago Press, 1994.

Shapin, Steven and Simon Schaffer. Leviathan And The Air Pump: Hobbes, Boyle, and the Experimental Life. Princeton University Press, 1985.

Stout, Jeffrey. The Flight From Authority: Religion, Morality, and The Quest For Autonomy. Notre Dame, London: University of Notre Dame Press, 1981.

Redwood, John. Reason, Ridicule, And Religion: The Age of Enlightenment In England 1660-1750. Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University Press, 1976

Willey, Basil. The Eighteenth Century Background: Studies On the Idea of Nature In the Thought of the Period. New York: Columbia University Press, 1941.





__________________

Ignorance is the Soil t

Thursday, September 06, 2007

Complexity, Parsemony and Ground of Being

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I see atheists making this mistake all the time.

(1) If God is the origin of the universe and if the universe is complex than God must be more complex than the universe.

(2) for some stupid reason they can't say they seem to think origins can't be complex. so God can't be complex so there can't be a God.

(sometimes they play this off of a design argument that uses complexity as a sign of design).

(3) maybe they also think being complex means God is not the elegant solution and belief is unparsimonious (because they mistakenly think parsimony means "take the simplest solution."


My answers:

(this was an exchange on CARM)


Originally Posted by LACanuck View Post
I've been reading Metacrock's (mostly) posts regarding God being the 'ground of being' or 'necessry being'. A little digging on my part came up with this quote from Andrew Cohen

This brought to mind the question posed in the title. If there is a ground of being, why do we endow that concept with personality? Why do we give it creative powers as if the concept is deciding what happens? Why do we anthropomorphize the concept?


If the ground of being is spaceless, timeless, thoughtless, etc. how can it dictate/inspire the bible? Or have a son. Or a holy spirit?



there are different notions of the ground of being. John MacQurrie (a major theologian) explains the Trinity by saying the ground of being would be indistinguishable from nothing if not for its own self reflexive nature, which is echoed in the Trinity.

As for the aspect of consciousness. Charmlers argues that consciousness is a basic property of nature. Hawking says that the Gut theory needs a central organizing principle which he calls "God" so I assume both of these ideas indicate that consciousness is not just produced by individual brains but is endemic to reality. it's a basic properly, it's part of the unified field and basic to all reality.

It's part of the self reflexive nature of ground of being. It's not like our consciousness. We can't expect God to actually think or use ratiocinate.

If the phenomena is complex must it's origin be more complex?

No that's a fallacy. After all evolution says that we go from simple to complex, life begins with single cell, the universe begins with mere subatomic structure and well it all comes out of a single point. The universe is not like a plant, waiting around in the singularity seed for all eternity before it can germinate. That is not what science says, even though it is a "cool" image.

"complexity" is a matter of biology and physics. God is not biological nor is God subject to physics. The laws of physics are merely ideas in the mind of God. They are nothing to God. God is no more subject to physics than you are to a stray thought. Biological complexity is a function of evolution. God does not evolve, except in process theology his concrete pole changes with the universe, but that doesn't mean he grows in complexity.







Origins can't be complex.

There is nothing about complex that means an origin couldn't be complex.The Platonic forms, just to use an analogy, would be very complex, in fact there would have to be a form for complexity itself.But no one ever said the Platonic forms had to be designed. Although Augustine did say they had to be the product of mind, God's mind.

some play this point off of the design argument itself. But the conventional design argument is fallacious. I don't use it and I think much of most Christians attempts to use it. The only except is the fine tuning argument because the target levels give us something to compare.

while we might assume complexity is a sign of design it does not follow that complexity in and of itself equals design.


Complexity is not parsimonious.

This is just a mistake in the meaning of the term. First, there's more to Parsimony than just saying 'take the simple solution." Secondly, the simple solution refers to the simplicity in assigning odds or probability not simple in terms f the prosperities of the phenomenon proposed.

human sexuality is more complex in terms of the process and function than is the explication that that starks bring babies, but it is also more correct.
__________________


quote:
Originally Posted by rounin
I see Christians making thw same mistake: "If the universe is such and such, its origins must be a sentient being."


At any rate, one would have to agree that it's a mistake.
why is that a mistake? That's the way science does it. you don't find scientists saying "So what if there's background radiation and the red shift shows us the galaxy i expanding, that doesn't mean anything about the origin."

The Big Bang is inferred directly from the nature of the universe as we find it.

although I agree we can't reason from the nature of the universe to its origin in terms of design. But if you stick to that you lose the theodicy argument too.


Now you may ask how it is that we can reason form the nature of the world to the big bang but not form nature of the world to God? Because with the big bang we have a comparison. We do not have another universe that we know was made by God (0r not) to compare with this one to see what a God made universe (or a totally random chance) universe looks like. But we do have a comparison with Doppler's shift. WE can tell which way the stars are going.

By the same token, however, we can make a God argument out of it. Andre Linde talks about the stars all moving in equal directions in a flat universe that is indicative of design because we can compare it with an idea of random expansion we know that it is indicative of some force.

On CARM

HRG;1804468]Sorry, the argument is faulty.

The complexity claim by itself has nothing to do with biology or physics; it is a statement of information theory. Unlike biological or physical processes, the creation of the universe by God is supposed to be a fully [B]planned [/B]process. Such processes are bound by Kolmogorov-Chaitin: the result cannot be more complex than the generating program or entity.
In addition, God's omniscience means that a full and exact model of the universe must be present inside God's mind. Again, his mind must be more complex than the universe.



How foolish to pin god down to human standards. you want to put god under the same strictures as all biological life. God is just a big man in the sky and he's just like any biology. No, sorry wont wash.

God is not biological. he's not bound by physics. we don't understand Go, nothing you can say sums him up. you cannot understand what he's made of or why he exists and we can't even call him "him" he's not a him or he. We can't say "it" we can't even use a personal pronoun.

let's say it again [B][I][SIZE="3"]god is beyond our understanding.[/SIZE][/I][/B]


Kolmogorov-Chaitin: will one day bow before the great white throne on their knees and be judged like little persons and God will not be impressed with what mathematician they were. HE wont say "O you are so brilliant, you impress me so, thank you for being my creature, will you please come teach me mathematics?" sorry, he will not care about any big words you use he wont care about anything you learned in school. But he will love you for the little baby Hansel that you once were.



If God's complexity cannot have grown, it must be there right from the start, and the theist is left with the burden of explaining the existence of a highly complex and thus highly improbable entity.



because that's what it means to be. That's what reality is. reality a product of whatever eternal state is indicative of God's mind.

but God is very simple because he's nothing more than the most basic act that could ever be that of pure being itself.


the whole assumption you make here is based entirely upon the physical universe, and upon phenomena which are subject o natural law. you have no concept that would allow you even being to contemplate a thing that is not subject to but actually creates that natural law.

You have no basis to even begin to think about it. and you have no big fancy math word what would rule out the idea of eternal mind.

Mind is very simple idea but it can be complex in its make up. you are just trying to subject reality to the tiny little sliver of it that man thinks he has pinned down.


P.S. An omniscient being would have to know the properties of[B] every subset [/B]of the natural numbers, and thus must be [B]uncountably [/B]infinitely complex (Set Theory 101).


where does the Bible say God is omniscient? If the eternal mind is infinite why can't it do that?

when you say "complex" you mean because biological organisms have lots of prts how do you count complexity for something that has no parts at all?

Tuesday, September 04, 2007

On Cause vs Correlation in Miracle Hunting

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In the discussions of miracles several atheists have made some big misconceptions.

(1) mistaken assumptions about my knowledge of correlation and cause.


some assume that since they are clever enough to know the very basic information, the difference in correlation and causality, that I must not know that because I'm a Christian and Christians are stupid, and they are so very clever to know some basic fact that all high school kids should get, correlation is not causality.

But what they don't get is that just i argue inductively that correlation is indicative of a cause if certain conditions obtain, that doesn't mean I don't know the difference.

Quote:
(2) What these very clever atheist don't get is that correlation is indicative of cause.
part of the problem is that certain people don't seem know what indicative means. Be that as it may, there is an epistemological gap in our knowledge it a problem at the most fundamental philosophical level. We can only establish causality in one way, buy making very correlations and eliminating alternate causes. This is the only way there is, and that's what Hume really proved with the billiard balls.

science can't prove causes. We can only prove correlations. When I assume causes on miracles, it's the only way we ever establish cause. Hans says "only if we eliminate the alternate causes." Yes, that's true, but it also leads to recursion of the original problem. Because if we can't observe causality and it must be inferred from correlation, then you can't say "I have eliminated an alternate cause by showing causality and eliminating it." That's just a repeat of the same problem. The alternate causes are only possibilities, they are not proven either. What is boils down to is in the final analysis a really tight correlation is the only way to determine cause. Although it is important to eliminate the alternative possible causes, essential in fact. What this means is I am right to assume causes from correlations, given that I can eliminate alternatives, and I usually can.

All of this means that medical evidence showing the disease went away, when examined by scientific medicos is good evidence for miracles. It's not absolute, there is no absolute. There will always be a gap in our epistemology. We will always have to make epistemic judgment.


(2) Don't need to show hit rate


The argument is made we must show the percentage of those healed vs not healed.

That's ridiculous. The reason is because we do not know the reason when someone is not healed. We cannot assume "O not bein healed means there's no ;god, because some are healed." Knowing the hit rate is important in many cases. such as prophesy, "so and so is a true prophet he predicted x," but how many predictions did the make that did not come true?

Knowing the hist rate is not true in terms of empirical evidence of healing because:

......(a) We don't know if the not healing is the result of no god, or God just didn't want to heal. Because a will is on the other end of the prayer we cannot treat it like a natural process and expect it to behave like a drug in a field trial.

......(b) Miracles are supposed to be impossible. they violate natural law. that's the whole theory of naturalism in a nut shell; nothing happens apart form natural law.

Thus if one miracle happens that proves miracles and all it takes is one. proving that x% are not healed doesn't prove anything. miracles are supposed to be impossible and can't happen, if one of them happens, or we can assume it happened, then that proves they do happen. We don't know the rate because God is not a drug. Divine healing is a matter of God's will.



(3) God's action in healing is not indicative of God's feelings about those healed or not healed.


This is the whole fallacy of the God hates amputees thing. You might as well say God hates breakfast because not once in my Christian walk has God ever made me scrambled eggs in the morning.

St. Augustine proved that there is no correlation between worldly prosperity or success and God's love. Rome was sacked by the vandals and everyone was saying "this disproves Christianity." but Augie said "no it doesn't, divine favor is not based worldly success. Stuff happens to Christians too, God causes it rain on the just and unjust."


(4) No double blind

Lourdes evidence does not need to be double blind First of all these are not "studies." They are not set up as a longitudinal study to see if healing works. These are real people and their journey to Lourdes is part of their journey in life in a search to be healed, they are not white lab mice plotting world conquest.

Secondly, double blind is used as a means of control so we know data is not contaminated by the subjects knowledge of the test. People suffering from an incurable disease cannot cure themselves. So it doesn't matter if they know. If the data shows the condition went away immediately and it can be documented that all traces are gone, the of course can assume healing, provided there is no counter cause such as he took a wonder drug before he left for Lourdes; they do certainly screen for that.

Of course there are still epistemological problems. There will always be such problems. That's why you can't prove you exist. But just as the answer to that problem is "Make epistemic judgment based upon regularity and inconsistency of data," so it goes with miracles, proving smoking causes cancer or anything else.

Thomas Reid got it right, we are justified in assuming empirical evidence provided it's strong evidence.

One more problem. When I say "correlation" this invites the question "how can you find a correlation if you don't know the hit rate? A correlation implies X and Y are seen together a lot, not just in one instance. But we can't go around giving people cancer and praying for them over and over to see if they ar always healed. We have to let multiple cases stand for correlation. But since we can't say why healing didn't take place we have to use empirical means to assert on a case by case basis.
__________________

come discuss this with me:

at Sense of the Numinous

Friday, August 31, 2007

The Nature of Faith is Confussing in Modernity

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A lot of people are confused about the nature o faith. Some think these are contradictions. A big soruce of misconception s a popular definition of faith as "believing thing without reasons." Take a comment, one I find typical, from a recent message board encounter:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Atheist_Devil View Post (carm aug 31 2007
I completely disagree with you. As Dan Barker calls it, faith is the "Great Escape".



So here we see the atheist take on faith still casting it in pejorative terms. The atheists set up their straw man definition of faith in which it is defined as "believing things without a reason. OF this is a totally inadequate definition.

Where do we turn for an understanding of faith? The best place would be the Westminster's Dictionary of Christian Theology, which is the official defining source of theological concepts. Here we see the simplistic bromide "faith is believing things without reasons" just wont do.

Westminster defines faith in a complex way, the article is very long and the definition is long.

The only atual Biblical definition of faith (Heb 11) does not encapsulate all that the Bible says on the subject, but indicates its main features 'the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.'


some translations say "evidence of things not seen. Faith is not a wild abandonment of logic, it is like faithfulness, it is a commitment to an understanding or a realization one takes as truth, and that realization can be gleaned from many sources including revelation, logic, personal experience. All of these things can be good reasons.

Westminster demonstrates the commitment aspect of faith in the sense of faithfulness which is part of the definition it gives for faith.

It is a confident obedient trust in the reality, in the power and love of God known through his acts, and an awaiting of their future consummation. The bible contains a variety of emphasis within this overall view. The noun 'faith' is comparatively rare in the OT where, (eg Hab 2.5) It may indicate faithfulness or loyalty to God rather than a passive reliance. But dependence upon God as distinct from human powers was imortant for Isaiah (7.9, 30.1-5). While the OT so often sees faith concertized as obedient action (Duet 6.1) the note of trust also resounds especially in the psalms.

Not to lose the complexity in a simplistic short hand, but we can encapsulate the OT view of faith as "trust, faithfulness, obedience." We see that is not passage acceptance of truth claims without reasons. The definition says the trust is based upon "The power of God" and that is a reason, it may one atheists don't like but it is a darn good one. If one has experienced the power of God in one's life one need no better reason.

In the Synoptic Gospels those who respond to Jesus' proclamation of the kingdom and respond to his salvific powers, are commended for their faith (Mark 2.5, 5.3) Unbelief is a hardness of heart a refusal to accept the immediacy of God's saving power (Mark 6.1).


Atheists have a strong tendency to deny that belief is a choice. They seem to think that it is some conclusion one is compelled to by logic, or maybe by stupidity; although in the context of religious belief they say that faith is antithetical to reason. They are missing the boat, in this definition we see that Jesus expected us to make a commitment, that is the essence of faith (from the last preceding quote). The basic skeptical position is hardness of heart, refusal to accept immediacy of God's saving power.

The dictionary lists tensions with faith. Tension is a favorite concept among theologians. It means the pull exerted between two seemingly contradictory ideas which are both true and yet conflict in some way. Tension is not a real contradiction but often results form either misunderstanding wrong emphasis. Tensions with faith are:

The first on the list is faith vs works, which I will not go into here. The second is faith verses reason. That's the atheists cease upon as a contradiction but they are driven by the wrong understand ing of faith. The Catholics have always recognized that "reason was capable of demonstrating the existence of God." (Ibid) while Protestants tended to down play reason as the product of the fallen human mind. The source of the modern misunderstanding of faith is the result of historical accident. It comes from the skeptical crisis in early modern Europe. This is specifically the 1600s, after the religious wars, when the Protestants and Catholics squared off against each other to decide which was the true way, faith or reason. We need to take note of a couple important thing here:

(1) the Catholics did not say "boo faith we like reason." They said faith and reason are not enemies. Faith and reason work together.

(2) the Prots did not say "reason is no good don't ever reason" they said human understanding can't equal the truth of God, faith is required for salvation so faith is over reason.

(3) The Prots did something else interesting: they turned to empirical proof rather than logic as the exposition of reason. The Catholics like logic because they Aquinas and the logic of their God arguments. the Prots had God arguments too but they preferred their own empirical God arguments such as the design argument.

The Protestants also used a form of Scholasiticm that was more rigorous than the Catholics version (and purposely so, to counter the Catholic intellectual heritage) but this went by the way side when they place all their epistemic eggs in the science basket. As a result seventeenth century Protestantism was instrumental in the rise of modern science. On the Catholic side Descartes made his name writing philosophy which was in direct response to the Church's request that the enter the battle on their side and help defeat the intellectual claims of the protestants. that is what produced the meditations. That whole period is known as "the skeptical crsis of early modern Europe." It was a major problem and created vast social upheaval and led to the rise of modern science as a means of checking reality. A major part of the struggle was over which to accept, tradition and authority or empirical proof. Tradition and authority were the answer of the faith camp. One might be tempted to think that this was the answer of the faith only camp but not so. It was the reason camp (Catholics) who construed tradition and authority extensions of reason. It was the faith only camp (Protestants) who developed empirical experimental methods as an extension of faith. Although a Catholic invented range and domane (Descartes) and a Catholic invented statistical probability. All of these things came out of this era and had some tangential connection to the skeptical crisis.





My dialog partner continues:

Quote:
When faith is invoked, you've admitted you've lost the rational argument and have retreated into the land of conjecture, speculation and maybe. Believers are not on the same intellectual plane.


This is because he misconstrues faith as "being stupid and beilef without reason." Kierkegaard called faith "irrational" but he did not mean by that blind stupidity crashing around and accepting stupid things. He meant an existential encounter, first hand face to face experience of truth. For him logic was hypothetical, only on the pages of books. He wanted engagement with God!




Faith is a free-for-all. If one faith claim is accepted, any other faith claim can be "true" as well. All it takes is "belief". How egalitarian! Everything is as good as everything else with no standard used to make these world views held to account. Ah, but there is a standard, isn't there. It's called results.


Of course the claim that I "admitted this" is nonsense, I don't' know what I said that made him assume this. But in anyway, he does the point, how can choose between conflicting tenets of faith? I really don't think this is a very tough one, although the answer may allude many people. The answer is bipolar:

two tensions

(1) On the one hand, there is the personal existential aspect of faith.

This is what people are seeing when they give that most annoying of answers: "it's truth for you." This is the kind of relativism that makes fundies cringe. But I have to admit I do my cringing too when I hear it, even though I think I have a handle on it.

This is not saying that truth very from one person to another, although some who use that phrase, I can't help but feel really think that. It means that since we don't understand truth exhaustively the existential commitment is what I recognize immediately as truth, even though ti's really just similitude. This is an aspect of my understanding that is standing in for truth since our understanding of truth is limited. It's personal commitment, that is it my on self defining moment that clarifies for me what I'm willing to faithful to as a sense of ideal and idea.

It's a way of saying "I am willing to keep my commitments, as long as I understand truth this way I will treat this as truth." This is the nature of the case an needs must be, because your understanding of God is pathetic. We can't possibly stack up to the reality of God, it's too overwhelming. Everything we know of God has to be metaphor because we just handle the way God really is. It's beyond words and thus beyond anything we know.

(2) the use of logic.


On the other hand, at the other end of the pole is the use of logic to understand. We can sort our competing truth claims by the use of logic. The atheist bromide that faith is anti ethical to logic is simply wrong. Logic is the standard we can use to sort out competing truth claims, even if they are the result of this other pole of personal existential commitment to perceived truth. How can these two co-exist without contradicting? Logic is also a personal commitment. It is an objective truth finding mechanism but we are not objective creatures. We cannot be objective. Objective truth exists "out there" but we just can't understand it exhaustively. For this reason we must hold our logical conclusions as personal existential commitments so we don't' impose them harshly upon others, but we can live by them ourselves.



Westminster Dictionary of Christian Theology
. ed., Alan Richardson and John Bowden, Great Briton:Westminster Press, 1983.207

Thursday, August 30, 2007

Cartesian Epistemology

We tend to think of epistemology as fashioned by Descartes. the rationalist constructs a neat little system for obtaining certain knowledge. At the time that Descartes came up with the cogito Europe was embroiled in a crisis of skepticism. The Skeptics weren't just anti-religious, though, they were Calvinists! The Calvinists challenged church authority, and the church was the gate keeper of knowledge. So Descartes' system was aimed at wrecking the arguments of the Calvinists, who despised reason and militated for faith as the ulimate route to knowledge.


Descartes failed in that he didn't bring everyone back to the RCC, but he succeeded beyond his wildest in that he established the method of empirical scientific proof through statistical verification, or helped to do so. Since that time we have tended to think of epistemology as a need little discipline that sets out a systematic system and 1,2,3 we have the truth because we know how we know.

But it doesn't work that way in modernity. Things are too complex. One thing that happened since WWII was a current in German thought that goes back to Brintano and the 19th century came to fruition in the guise of a Nazi, even one accepted in the land of the Nazi deafters.

I speak of course of Heigeggerian epistemology. That is a very appropriate juncture for a Christian to move into thinking about epistemology, since Heidegger was influenced by two major Christian thinkers, in the liberal tradition; the 'father' of modern liberal theology, Schleiermacher, and the "father" of modern existentialism, Keirkegaard. Both were devout Christians.

This phenomenological perspective runs parell to the perspective of mystical religious experience, which is the most sure fire safe guard on faith of which I know.

Heideggerian phenomenology proceeds from a point of allowing the phenomena to suggest their own categories. Rather than "gathering" all data into a heap and forcing it into pre conceived categories, the phenomenologist begins with the root of the experince in sense data and phenomena, and rather than insisting upon filing it where he thinks it goes, he mentally allows the phenomena to suggest its own category.

That means in practicle terms experiencing the presence of God rather than insisting through rationalistic means that God exists and God is thus and so. One experiences God and then comes to an understanding of the nature of God.

Now I'm not saying that this can be a total epistemology in and of itself. We also have empirical knowledge and revelation. But you know my view on revelation of the Bible, that is a recored f people's experiences of god; that is very phenomenological. rather than be dictated their theological tenets, they recored their expediences and that becomes the tenet as the community compares it to its own experiences; the dialectical presence model of inspiration that Barth and others spoke of.

posted by J.L. Hinman @ 1:02 AM
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Monday, August 27, 2007

Someone Miserable for God

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When I first got saved mother Teresa won the Nobel Prize having been brought before the public by Malcolm Muggeririge's book Something Beautiful for God. I immediately was inspired by the book and by the image of Mother Teresa.

<So Mather T had doubts? Since the papers have been published atheists all over the net have been buy making denuding saints and debunking perfection while they can. Two major versions of this argument are common.

(1) Religion must be a like if the most religious people have doubts.

(2) Christians can't say atheists have no morals, because mother Teresa counts as an atheist and she's the most moral Christian.

Of course the first argument is just childish gainsaying. I wont even dignify it. Of course people have doubts. Mother T was a human and humans doubt. It's stupid to think they wouldn't. I do have a couple of conversations about it.

First, I think for me the most disappointing thing is that this woman whom I admired and thought of so highly was in an agonizing existence as she struggled with her faith. It makes me feel bad for her. I hope she found resolutions. Now does this shake my faith? No not at all.In a sense it's kind of a relief. If the greatest example of Christian sacrifice in modern times can have agonizing doubt then my own doubt is not so bad. I am not a spiritual failure just because I doubt. Because look at how the most spiritual person doubts! Moreover, her doubts and her agonizing were relay indicative of a very spiritual person, a person of faith. Her doubt was not real doubt. I'm sure it was doubt but it was not skepticism. She was not an atheist she was not poised to become an atheist.

Mother T expressed doubts of the sort expressed by people who believe deeply when their belief is shaken, not skeptical doubt that seeks to tear down the belief of others. This is typified by her longing for God. "where is God how I long for God" these are the kind of things people say when they want more religious experience, not the sort of things people say when they are ready to throw out religion form their lives. That she thougth she was a hypocrite is typical of saints. Saints care. They strive to be perfect and often fail because the are human. The things she says sound just like ST. John of the Cross in the dark night of the soul.


Mother Teresa, who worked for years among the poor of Calcutta, wrote in 1958: "My smile is a great cloak that hides a multitude of pains."

Because she was "forever smiling", people thought "my faith, my hope and my love are overflowing and that my intimacy with God and union with his will fill my heart. If only they knew . . ."


Mother Teresa, who was greatly admired by Diana, Princess of Wales, said in another letter: "The damned of Hell suffer eternal punishment because they experiment with the loss of God.

"In my own soul, I feel the terrible pain of this loss. I feel that God does not want me, that God is not God and that he does not really exist."

Il Messeggero, Rome's popular daily newspaper, said: "The real Mother Teresa was one who for one year had visions and who for the next 50 had doubts - up until her death."

Her years of doubt coincided with the period when, after having visions, she decided to leave her teaching post at a privileged Calcutta school to help India's poor.



Real atheists don't talk about how they long for union with God. This is the plaintive cry of a mystic who has deeply imbibed of the Spirit and wants more. This is a true dark night of the soul. That does not make one a hypocrite or a skeptic it makes one a mystic and a saint.


As for argument 2, about atheist ethics. Anyone rash enough to say that atheists have no morals needs to know something about ethics, and about atheists. Of course atheists have morals, and them because God put them there. That is really a terrible argument. We need to expunge that from the Christian arsenal immediately. We should only argue in terms of the need to ground ethical axioms not the ethical nature of the opposition or lack of same. That really just becomes ad hom argument.

Thursday, August 16, 2007

Jesus Christ and The Importance of Historicity.

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History is Probability



"Topos" is a Greek word that means "location" or "seat." Where is the location of historicity? What is the exact point at which one can say "this is historicity?" But there is a more fundamental question implied in finding the topos of historicity, and that is "what is the crucial point at which historicity takes on theological meaning?What aspects of being historical are so crucial that, if other wise proven to be not historical, the Christian faith would crumble?

All history is probability. No one can empirically prove an "historical fact," for that would require being able to repeat the experiment or to otherwise witness the event for oneself. Obviously history by its nature as part of times arrow does not allow either of these options. Thus history is a non-empirical social science. WE can't go back in time and watch George Washington cross the Delaware, but we can assume that he did so because we have documents that refer to it which contain eye witness testimony and which we have no good reason to doubt.


For this reason history is a matter of documents. Those we call "historians" were writing in the time of Christ, such as Tacitus and Josephus, but they were not professionals nor academics. History as an academic social science has only existed since the 19th century. As a science history still has a ways to go and it will never be the sort of science that one might find in sociology or biology. The major theorists of an academic discipline of history writing in the late 19th century, set forth the model that history is a matter of what can be documented from the past. For this reason history is primarily a matter of documents, but that means that there are huge cracks in our understanding that can never be filled. For that reason historians assess the nature of historical "fact" as a form of probability. George Washington probably did exist and he probably did cross the Delaware to fight the Hesseians at Princeton (and other places) but that is no more an empirical fact that Christ resurrection from the dead. The probably of Washington crossing the Delaware is much higher historically speaking than that of the Resurrection, but it is no more certain in an absolute sense. Yet when all historians agree to it we can place a very high degree of confidence in it and we speak of it as a "fact" because we assume that it is one.


The problem is that when one attaches religious significance to a document some certain group of people will decide that this is intrinsically to be doubted. What these people don't understand is that 90% of what we know about the ancient world comes to us from documents that one could doubt for the same reasons that atheists usually doubt the Bible (because they are recorded in religiously polemical documents).

Consider the case of Josephus. Most atheists assume that Josephus is an authority to be trusted and few people anywhere would assert that he didn't exist. This is because we have no reason to suspect that he didn't, and he is our basis for knowledge of about 80% of what happened in the first century. But one could argue that Josephus didn't exist, or that most of his writings were made up. Using the same criteria that Christ myther's use for deciding that Christ didn't exist or that 90% of what is reported about him was made up, one can make the same kinds of arguments. First, Josephus' writings must have been controlled by Christians from an early period because we have no texts with totally lack the bits about Jesus. If that was made up then certainly Jo's works were controlled by Christians from the earliest times. Now secondly, Josephus gets wrong the year that the Roman legions of Vespasian left Palestine, but Jo was there so how could he get that wrong? It must be that his works are made up! The whole of Josephus works were made up to advocate the Jewish-Christian cause and that explains the passage where he says he got his friend off the cross before sunset, that was put in there to show that Joseph of Aramethia could do the same with the body of Jesus. Why else does he use the name Jospeh so much like the name Josephus?


Of course I'm being sarcastic. None of these arguments hold water and no historian would accept them, but they cannot be disproved! It's just that historians don't waste their time with BS conspiracy theories or silly assertions. It is also the case that since Josephus forms the bulwark of our knowledge about that period, historians are not eager to lose his testimony. The point is that the same criteria could be used to dislodge Josephus as have been advocated to dislodge the New Testament (minus the textual proof of redaction, but there some evidence of redaction in some of Josephus, consider the Slavic and Arabic manuscripts)!


The point is that in deciding the nature of historical fact we cannot let such things as "this document is a religious polemic" decide the matter. We have to assume that the presence of a document is enough to tell us something about the situation under which is was written, and that knowing something about who wrote a document and why, tells us something about the situation. Just being able to point out that a document is religious and is written for religious reasons, even polemical ones, is not enough to assume that the document is forgery or that it has not historical merit or information in it.

Thus we cannot rule out the historicity of the Gospels based upon these criteria. We have to formulate more specific textually critical reason for rejecting the documents of the New Testament. Now of course such reasons exist and are talked about among textual critics, But they don't just blindly rule them out merely because they are the New Testament.

Thus, we have to accept a certain probably about the historicity of the New Testament documents which can be established by textual criticism, but the basic assumption has to be that there is some basis in historical fact, that the writers have some connection with a tradition and that they understand themselves to be in that tradition. We cannot assume that they are engaging in pernicious motive or just making things up. After all, any history could be the result of such a plot but if one assumes this than one doesn't have scientific examination of what happened in the past. To have that one must assume that some things form the past can come to us form those who set out to record at least their understanding of what happened.

Not Historical but History making>


The category "history making" is not one used by historians. It is the brain child of German Theologian Jurgen Moltmann from the University of Tubengin. The reason for it is not to "make something true" as has been charged. It is not to over come a dirth of hard evidence, as has been charged on certain message boards. The reason for the category is to overcome a cheat, to get around a cheating argument by European intellectuals. The Marxists historians argue that since history is founded upon naturalistic principles and upon documentary hypothesis (as set out by Marx in The German Ideology) one cannot do history on the basis of the supernatural. Thus the resurrection could never be an historical question because it can never assumed by historians that it happened.


This is true, but it's still cheating in a sense. Because it means that no matter what the truth of that event it can never be understood in the way that Christian doctrine would assert because it just can't be part of history (remember history is not what "really" happened but the interpretation of the documentary trail of what happened).


So Moltmann says "OK we will just change the rules. Instead of grounding our understanding in the category of 'historical nature' we will ground it in the category of 'history making.'" The belief shaped history in the sense that history was shaped by the tradition which understood itself to be witness to the resurrection. Thus it is not the historicity of the event itself that we seek to prove. This can never be proven, it can only be embraced as an act of faith because we cannot go back in time and watch it happen. But we can embrace a certain probabilistic sense of it happening and we can understand it as the self identity of a community which went on to shape history as a result of its understanding of that event. There had to be, therefore, some kind of event for the group to have some kind of self understanding in relation to the event. That means that the arguments about the resurrection must become an attempt to assess the probabilities of various theories as to the nature of this event which prompted such a self definition among the community.


What matters is not history but the history making aspects. That is, it is not an historical question, Was Jesus the son of God? Did he raise from the dead? These are not things that can be proven historically, they are not part of history because they involve transcendence of the naturalistic framework under which history is assumed. That does not mean that I don't believe them, but it does mean that proving them is less important than living them. Should anyone think this is not sufficiently intellectual to justify the brain power it takes to grasp it, it's probably not, but just trying actually doing it. The point is that there is no intellectual shame in an existential encounter with the object of ultimate concern. So that is what really matters, that the teachings bestow Grace, that the church understood itself as the recipient of Christ's teachings (and with no small amount of confirming evidence form history) and it doesn't matter that it isn't "proven" or that the resurrection isn't considered historical. It is history making, history was shaped around that concept and around the churches understanding of itself as the guardian of Jesus' teachings.


Historical fact Vs Historical perspective


Since historical facts are probability in the fist place, the nature of any historical fact is not a matter of absolute proof but of the best evidence forming a degree of confidence in a probabilistic assertion. This means that naturalistic ideology will exclude the possibly of the resurrection a pariori, it also means that we can bring back in a certain probability based upon the category of the history making self understanding of the group.


But it also means that what matters more in terms of the resurrection is not historical fact but historical perspective. This is an observation only a theologian could love. It is not a view point of an historian, but since my first love was theology, I embrace it as a tenet of theological understanding. The historical persecutive I have cultivated tries not to impose the category of "fact" upon the claim of the resurrection, but to create spaces in which the claim can be held as a tenet of faith based upon its history making character. That means, I think it really happened, but the question is how to talk about it really happening when it is to be considered so improbable? Well, that is purely an ideological matter and depends more upon metaphysical assumptions to rule it out rather than any real historical evidence that would rule it out. Through the metaphysical assumption I make I rule it back in, but not as imposed "fact," rather, as the thing with which I fill the spaces created by the history making nature. In other words the history making concept is how we fill the cracks left between the probabalistic assertions of inductive reasoning.

Topos


Now what does all of this mean? It means first of all that I don't have to prove the resurrection in order to hold it as a doctrine and a tenet of faith. It also means that I can ground its true theological significance in the symbolic value of its transforming aspects without proving it as "fact" because for me it is an existential fact. I am transformed by it, thus for me it is a fact, if not a historical fact, then an existential one.


Nevertheless, I think the evidence does point to it as an actual fact, a literal resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth from the dead, but the important thing about that is its theological significance as a symbol. The fact that I think it really happened, although important, is only secondary in terms of having to prove things. I can prove that the affects of believing it are real.


That also means that I don't have to worry about all the details of the New Testament documents being in place. I assume that these documents were not written by those whose names they bare, and I assume that many of the details, are out of place chronologically and perhaps are only suggestive of the actual events. None of that matters in terms of transformative value.


Thus, the real topos of historicity is not in the stories and not in the documents but it is in the tradition which preserved the documents. The leaders of that tradition chose the documents based upon their connection with the original group withwhom the deposit of Christ's teachings were fist entrusted, the Apostles. Thus, we can assert that there is in some sense an historical core to the documents even if we are in the dark as to the exact nature of that core.


What ultimately matters is that the documents themselves are not understood within the tradition as literal epistemology but as a means of bestowing Grace. If Grace is bestowed to the reader then this is all that can be asked in terms of the reason for their preservation. This is all that need be accomplished.*


Nevertheless, we can come at this with an historical persecutive and ask what the documents do tell us about the history of the situation. That Jesus really did die on the cross that that his teachings really were indicative of the Kingdom of God puts a force behind the symbolic value that increases the efficacy of that, and that makes them indicative of a truth which can be demonstrated within a reasonable field of historical probability.


The historicity of Jesus is important, but the question is, what is important about it? Is it really so important to know that on a certain day Jesus did and said this or that? Or is it important to know that we have a generally accurate perception of the kinds of things Jesus did and the basic core of his teaching available to us? I contend that some historical elements are more important than others..

The Topos of Historicity"Topos" is just a fancy Greek term used in arts and hummanities circles for "place," or "location." I bring this up because I think what is most important is the understanding of and acceptance of the Tradition itself. I think the tradition is the safe guard of the historicity. This means that rather than some sort of historically empirical proof (of which there is no such thing) that Jesus really gave the sermon on the mount, the important thing is that the tradition loaded those teachings into its understanding of Jesus from an early period and to be a member of the community means to accept that teaching. This is so because this is what works. To accept Jesus, to accept God's grace through the mediation of Christ's atonement is transformative and offers a power for living which resolves the basic human problematic. The proof of that is in actually doing it, actually receiving it, not in historical arguments.




The Theological Lodown:


As I have said before, I believe that there is one universal experience of the Divine that stands behind all religions. The individual God figures in reach religion don't matter because they are preceded by this experience which is more basic, and they are created by cultural construct through which this experience must be flitted. But that is what happens when man tries to reach out to God mostly unaided. What happens when God decides to make one clear unmistakable statement that demonstrates exactly who he is and what he wants? Perhaps the best way to do that would be to come and tell us himself. That's what I believe happened with Jesus.


Now that still leaves problems of the ambiguity of language. But what is unambiguous is the actions. Not only are the actions of Jesus reflective of the divine in such enstances as forgiving the woman caught in adultery or in healing the sick and so forth, but they are unmistakable in his atonement on the cross. This is a statement of God's solidarity with humanity. That God would be willing to die for the sins of humanity and to die as one of the lowest in the social order demonstrates that God is on our side and is willing to identify with our lot, which is what solidarity is all about. Now never mind the fact that "it didn't hurt cause he was God" and silly arguments like that. The point is that it is a clear expression of God's willingness to identify with us. The only problem is that we have to return the favor and identify with him. It's still a search that can only concluded in the heart. So we must still make a decision and place our solidarity with God through giving our lives to Christ (Romans 6). But it works both ways and all we need to is examine the case to see that. Once having done that we receive transformation and we resolve the problematic involved in being human and that's what really matters because that is a lived experience and can be seen by anyone, it is not a matter of empirical evidence or of demonstration in an "objective" way. I'm not saying the history doesn't matter, and I do believe the historical stuff form the Gospels.


But what matters more than proving it as history is what it means to accept it as history. It doesn't mean being able to prove it (and in fact nothing in history is proven in the way that it is in science--all history is probability in a sense). What matters about accepting the history is understanding what it does for one to accept it. When one finds that this is the case and it does actually mediate transcendence one can find that the claims are at least true. They may or may not be true in a literal historical sense (and I think most of them are) but they are true in a transformative sense. If one is transformed than it would seem to be the point, the whole point involved in why would want to investigate religion in the first place. How to choose a tradition. Now as I have said, it is not a question of which religion is true but of which has the efficacy (I am speaking phenomenologically here--not theologically). That means, all religions mediate transformation to some degree, but some do so better than others. Human sacrifice for example is a less efficacious method, because it involves the necessity of cruelty and murder, and a grace oriented religion is more efficacious because it is more accessible to all. There are two such religions and two only: pure land Buddhism and Christianity. We can compare those two later. But in my view that is the reason to prefer a particular tradition, and to prefer the tradition with which I identify; because it mediates transcendence through Grace, which means one need not be good enough to merit God's favor. That makes it more accessible and in a sense it may make it more transformative. As Jesus said "he who has been foreign much loves much. We can open a new one to do the historical stuff (and don't worry, I will).

____________ *For a discussion transformative value (or Sacramental rather than epistemological understanding of the Scriptures) see Canon and Criterion in Christian Theology, by Willam Abrham, Oxford, 1998/2002.

For discussion of History making see Jurgan Moltmann, Theology of Hope,New York: Harpers, 1967

Wednesday, August 08, 2007

Feeling of Utter Dependence and It's Relation to Being Itself

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"The name of infinite and inexhaustible depth and ground of our being is God. That depth is what the word God means. And if that word has not much meaning for you, translate it, and speak of the depths of your life, of the source of your being, of your ultimate concern, of what you take seriously without any reservation. Perhaps, in order to do so, you must forget everything traditional that you have learned about God, perhaps even that word itself. For if you know that God means depth, you know much about Him. You cannot then call yourself an atheist or unbeliever. For you cannot think or say: Life has no depth! Life itself is shallow. Being itself is surface only. If you could say this in complete seriousness, you would be an atheist; but otherwise you are not."


--Paul Tillich, The Shaking of The Foundations


I love this quote by Tillich. In a nutshell it says "if you understand that being has depth then you can't be an atheist."

What does this mean that being has depth? How do we know that it does? First let's unpack the statement:

"the name of the depth and ground of being is God." So God is the ground of being. Steady readers have seen me make this claim over and over again. But here ground of being is linked with something referred to as "depth of our being." So to understand the ground of being is to understand that being has depth. "speak of the depths of life of the source of being." So depth of our being has to do with the source of Being, which is the same as 'ground of being." All three are the same or related, ground, depth, and source.

It makes sense to say that God is the ground of being and the source of being. They mean the same thing. But depth what does that mean? Is depth source?

For if you know that God means depth, you know much about Him.

God means depth? So what it means to say being has depth is to say there is a God. God = depth. That would be the case if depth also = ground and source.


You cannot then call yourself an atheist or unbeliever. For you cannot think or say: Life has no depth! Life itself is shallow. Being itself is surface only. Here he's loading more into the term "depth" than just source because he's saying it is something more than just the fact of existing. It's more than just the source of being its also that being is more than just the fact of existence. Being is more than it seems on the surface. that's what he says isn't it?

It seems to me that Tillich is guilty of a kind of circular reasoning here. We know God exists if we know God exists. We know there's a God if we know that being has more to it than just the fact of existing, what that more is is God. So we know God exists if we know God exists. Well Tillich didn't like God arguments, I can see why.

Given that Tillich is not making a God argument, granted but there still must be some linear direction for this thinking to take. I think he is saying we know there's a God when we find that being is more than just the source level facts of existence. Just the act of realizing this is to realize the existence of God, for God is the source of being and that gives us the understanding of what depth of being is. The depth of being is it's relation to its source and the relation of all manifestations of being to the source. Just to under that there is more to things than there appear on the surface, is to understand there there is a source of being that transcends the mundane.

This realization is captured in the feeling of utter dependence. To my knowledge Tillich did not speak of the feeling, except in his lectures on History of Christian thought (edited by Karl Braaton) where he speaks of Schleiermacher. But the two are clearly linked. Both are realizations of God's reality through understanding the correlate of divine presence in it's effect upon us. Are these the same or two separate pathways to understanding God's reality?

In the search for an answer I would like to turn back to and unpack a statment made at the end of my essay (see my essay on Feeling of Utter Dependence, two posts ago) made by Roy Williams in his book Schleiermacher the Theologian




"It is the original pre-theoretical consciousness...Schleiermacher believes that theoretical cognition is founded upon pre-theoretical inter subjective cognition and its life world. The latter cannot be dismissed as non-cognative for if the life world praxis is non-cognitive and invalid so is theoretical cognition..S...contends that belief in God is pre-theoretical, it is not the result of proofs and demonstration, but is conditioned solely by the modification of feeling of utter dependence. Belief in God is not acquired through intellectual acts of which the traditional proofs are examples, but rather from the thing itself, the object of religious experience..If as S...says God is given to feeling in an original way this means that the feeling of utter dependence is in some sense an apparition of divine being and reality. This is not meant as an appeal to revelation but rather as a naturalistic eidetic"] or a priori. The feeling of utter dependence is structured by a correlation with its whence." , Schleiermacher the Theologian, p 4.



This quotation is saying that the true basis of belief is not logic or demonstration but the actual experience of the divine itself. But we cannot speak of the divine, yet we can speak of the correlate, the thing that is always found in relation to the divine the foot print in the snow so to say. This is the Derridian "trace" of God in the universe.

Schleiermacher believes that theoretical cognition is founded upon pre-theoretical inter subjective cognition and its life world. The latter cannot be dismissed as non-cognitive for if the life world praxis is non-cognitive and invalid so is theoretical cognition


"pre-theoretical" means the experience is prior to anything we think about it, it's not the result of theorizing about any constituent experience."intersubjective" means it's subjective but others are experiencing similar subjective things. This statement says that one might be tempted to dismiss this experience as non cognitive, or something that can't be considered cognitively such as a mood or disposition, but if this is the case then we can also dismiss all experience of our life world.Schleiermacher is saying that belief is predicated upon the experience of the feeling of utter dependence, which is a valid correlate of the experience of God. Belief is not the result of Intellectual demonstration or arguments. Does this mean that to turn the feeling into an "argument" is to destroy it or dismiss it? I think it would be a mistake to try and offer the feeling as demonstration of something in an empirical sense. It is certainly a rational warrant for belief. Since that is the standard of my decision making paradigm, it can be offered as such.

S...says God is given to feeling in an original way this means that the feeling of utter dependence is in some sense an apparition of divine being and reality. This is not meant as an appeal to revelation but rather as a naturalistic eidetic"] or a priori.


"offered in an original way" I take to be something like properly basic. The feeling is its own unique experience and connotes what might be logically taken for indication of a correlate to some co-determinate. It's a sign, the trace of God in the universe. But its not a revelation of God, it must be taken as an a priori, like my argument the religious a priori; religion is its own unique discipline not a dumed down version of science or ethics. It has to be taken on its own terms.This is what is meant by William's phrase: "the feeling of utter dependence is structured by a correlation with its whence." Just like the cause of the footprint in the snow is the thing that made the print, so the occasion for the feeling is predicated upon the thing the feeling is about. In other words, the content of religious experiences is religious, we can take that as experience of God.

Tillich bases the notion of being having depth upon our realization of the object of our ultimate concerns. God is that object since God is the final and ultimate embodiment of those concerns. Obviously these are the related areas. They both involve realizations of the same things, although to realize being has depth one need not necessarily express that in terms of utter dependence. But the feeling of UD is basically a realization that we are contingent creatures. To realize that being has depth one must realize that there is an aspect of being that warrants attention in a special way, that deserves to be set apart form the typical sense of the mundane. But there may be two different paths to the same realization; UD seems to be at a more removed level. One becomes cognizant of contingency, then one must realize that one is contingent upon something, and also that all things are contingent upon that same thing (unity in the world--the contingency is upon the same predicate which is what produced unity in the life world).

Saturday, August 04, 2007

Asking for Proof of God's Existence is Wrongheaded

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My arguments for God are not offered as proof. There are times that I get carried away by statments atheists make and assert that they are proof. I think a couple of them might be, but not of the time--when I'm rational--I argue them as "rational warrant for belief" only.

I really think the idea of demanding proof of the existence of God is silly, wrong headed and would require a sacrifice of the intellect. The Atheist dictum "you can't believe something without evidence" is not only wrong, it's asking one to abandon a deeper view of reality in favor of a shallow "quick fix" which would automatically bias the observer against understanding.

This is so because religion is not failed privative science. It is not watered down ethics, nor is it an off brand of epistemology with pointed hats and tasteless cookies. Religion is an attempt to resolve the human problematic. It is its own thing. It's not unreduced to other forms of discourse, it's a priori it's own.

religion doesn't necessarily require a god, but for those that have a view of God it is not a matter of proving an empirical bit of knowledge about the world. God is not a "thing" or a person or a man. God is not another thing alongside things in creation.

The whole point of calling God "being itself" is to get across the idea that Gos is on another level, set apart from "things" not to be counted as "just another bit of info." God is not given in sense data, thus is not an empirical question.

God is an existential question and is not a matter of proof. ordinary attempts at validation don't apply. God is a matter of personal conviction, that's all nothing more nothing less. to treat God as a thing to be proven like something one can study through sense data is to degrade the concept of God and to accept a view dinegrated and reduced from the full philosophical framework.

The framework necessary for understanding the Christian view of god is vast, it could be an academic subject in it's own right (we could call it ..."theology!")

The real question is not "prove there's a God" but "why do you believe?" Answering that question does not require proof.

which god is it? is not an intelligent question. But which tradition best mediates transformative power, that's the question!

Thursday, August 02, 2007

The Feeling of Utter Dependence.

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Decison Maknig Paraidgm."

Co-determinate: The co-determinate is like the Derridian trace, or like a fingerprint. It's the accompanying sign that is always found with the thing itself. In other words, like trailing the inviable man in the snow. You can't see the inviable man, but you can see his footprints, and wherever he is in the snow his prints will always follow.

We cannot produce direct observation of God, but we can find the "trace" or the co-determinate, the effects of God in the world.

The only question at that point is "How do we know this is the effect, or the accompanying sign of the divine? But that should be answere in the argument below. Here let us set out some general peramiters:

(1) The trace produced content with specifically religious affects

(2)The affects led one to a renewed sense of divine reality, are trans formative of life goals and self actualization

(3) Cannot be accounted for by altenate causality or other means.

Argument:

(1) There is a pervading sense of unity in the life world

(2) The over all sense of unity produces a sense of the dependence of the whole upon a higher ontological level.

(3) The content of the experience is expressly sublime and evokes the sense of the numinous.

(4)The sense of the numinous is expressly religious and constitutes the co-determinate of the divine.

Analysis:

A.Religion not Reduceable to Knowledge or Ethics.

Frederich Shcleiermacher, (1768-1834) in On Religion: Speeches to it's Cultured Dispisers, and The Christian Faith .sets forth the view that religion is not reduceable to kowledge or ethical systems. It is primarily a phenomenological apprehension of God consciousness through means of religious affections. Affections is a term not used much anymore, and it is easily confused with mere emotion. Sometimes Schleiermacher is understood as saying that "I become emotional when I pay and thus there must be an object of my emotional feelings." Though he does venture close to this position in one form of the argument, this is not exactly what he's saying.

In the earlier form of his argument he was saying that affections were indicative of a sense of God, but in the Christian Faith he argues that there is a greater sense of unity in the life world and a sense of the dependence of all things in the life world upon something higher.

What is this feeling of utter dependence? It is the sense of the unity in the life world and it's greater reliance upon a higher reality. It is not to be confused with the stary sky at night in the desert feeling, but is akin to it. I like to think about the feeling of being in my backyard late on a summer night, listening to the sounds of the freeway dying out and realizing a certain harmony in the life world and the sense that all of this exists because it stems form a higher thing. There is more to it than that but I don't have time to go into it. That's just a short hand for those of us to whom this is a new concept to get some sort of handle on it. Nor does "feeling" here mean "emotion" but it is connected to the religious affections. In the early version S. thought it was a correlate between the religious affections and God; God must be there because I can feel love for him when I pray to him. But that's not what it's saying in the better version.

B.Platonic background.

The basic assumptions Schleiermacher is making are Plaontic. He believes that the feeling of utter dependence is the backdrop, the pre-given, pre-cognitive notion behind the ontological argument. IN other words, what Anselm tried to capture in his logical argument is felt by everyone, if they were honest, in a pre-cognitive way. In other words, before one thinks about it, it is this "feeling" of utter dependence. After one thinks it out and makes it into a logical argument it is the ontological argument.

C.Unity in the Life world.


"Life world," or Labeinswelt is a term used in German philosophy. It implies the world of one's culturally constructed life, the "world" we 'live in.' Life as we experience it on a daily basis. The unity one senses in the life world is intuitive and unites the experiences and aspirations of the individual in a sense of integration and belonging in in the world. As Heidegger says "a being in the world." Schleiermacher is saying that there is a special intuitive sense that everyone can grasp of this whole, this unity, being bound up with a higher relatively, being dependent upon a higher unity. In other words, the "feeling" can be understood as an intuitive sense of "radical contingency" (int he sense of the above ontological arguments).

He goes on to say that the feeling is based upon the ontological principle as its theoretical background, but doesn't' depend on the argument because it proceeds the argument as the pre-given pre-theoretical pre-cognitive realization of what Anslem sat down and thought about and turned into a rational argument: why has the fools said in his heart 'there is no God?' Why a fool? Because in the heart we know God. To deny this is to deny the most basic realization about reality.

Now dont' think by any stretch of the imagination that I think this proves the existence of God! No, no way. It is not "proof," it is freedom from the need to prove!

As Robert R. Williams puts it:

There is a "co-determinate to the Feeling of Utter dependence.

"It is the original pre-theoretical consciousness...Schleiermacher believes that theoretical cognition is founded upon pre-theoretical inter subjective cognition and its life world. The latter cannot be dismissed as non-cognative for if the life world praxis is non-cognitive and invalid so is theoretical cognition..S...contends that belief in God is pre-theoretical, it is not the result of proofs and demonstration, but is conditioned solely by the modification of feeling of utter dependence. Belief in God is not acquired through intellectual acts of which the traditional proofs are examples, but rather from the thing itself, the object of religious experience..If as S...says God is given to feeling in an original way this means that the feeling of utter dependence is in some sense an apparition of divine being and reality. This is not meant as an appeal to revelation but rather as a naturalistic eidetic"] or a priori. The feeling of utter dependence is structured by a correlation with its whence." , Schleiermacher the Theologian, p 4.