Does the Bible Really Teach that Hell is Eternal Conscious Torment, part 2

"night on bald mountain--Disney's Fantasia--
the music of Mussorgsky, folk tale about the devil and hell.

 In part one I argue that hell is figurative and symbolic since there are no long passages where it is explicit fleshed out exactly what hell is and how it works. It wasn't part of the Hebrew faith originally but came to them from the Greeks. It was imaged by the pit outside Jerusalem where garbage was burned (Gehenna) that became the standard symbol of hell. Yet it's origin was probalby in the Greek notion of Tartarus in the Greek underworld, the place of the dead. In the OT there is a Hebrew notion of the place of the dead to which all go, in most cases where the OT says "Hell" it really says "sheol" meaning "the grave" or the abode of the dead. In Part 1 I argued that hell is almost always mentioned in relation to figurative language or parables or apocalyptic. In this section I want to deal with passage that are literal and that we don't take figuratively. I want to deal with the meaning of hell.  I will also try to deal with some questions raised in the comment section on part 1.

I first began to really think seriously about the injustice of hell in college. I had always all my life thought about how much more sever the punishment was than the crime. I was always willing to accept it as some form of absolute, in the ideal realm. Then a friend of mine in college, a Catholic, said "I don't like the idea of hell because no one learns anything. It's a waste." he was telling me about Vatican II and how they take a more symbolic understanding of hell. This changed my thinking becuase it wasn't just a question of stretching the severity of sin to justify the severity of the punishment, it clearly put into the perspective the whole illogical nature of the punishment itself. After all, if God is love (1 John 4:8), and perfect love casts out fear (1 John 4:18) yet we should believe that the source of all love and goodness would torture us mercilessly for all eternity and fear that torment to the extent that we act on that fear to do right rather than on love? Of course one need not reject hell as eternal conscious torment (ECT) to see the fallacy in that kind of exegesis. Nevertheless this is does point to the notion that there's a lot more going on in understanding the Gospel clearly than just carrot and stick. Haven't we always known that?

Some people think they are being he men when they support the illogical. It's just a matter of talking tough. Peter Kreet uses this tact in saying "perfect fear casts out luv." He spells it luv to get across the idea that he's not saying we should cast out agape but the wishy washy unmanly kind of sisy love that doesn't accept the scary ferocity of God's wrath. We can't use God's wrath or the concept of "fear of the Lord" (which Kreet is using) to justify hell as ECT. That's just circular reasoning. The illogical and waste of  the hell concept (no one learns it's all over) strips us of redemption; then you are going to be burning on fire for always just because you grew up in a culture where Jesus wasn't' understood as an iconic symbol? The illogic of that concept is supposed to be made up for by saying we are being tough? The Bible tells us to fear the Lord. That is not an excuse to accept the circular reasoning that would interpret hell as ECT because doing so seems to be more Manly or more zealous than not, then pretending like we are doing real exegesis by just enforcing the prejudice as an exegetical key to wisdom. The fear of the Lord is natural and part of our make up as humans. We don't have to make ourselves have it, we just have to accept it for what it means. It's not a exegetical tool, nor is it predicated upon belief in hell. I fear God believing that damnation means ceasing to exist. I don't believe that God will lose his temper and huff and puff red faced through me into hell because I didn't understand a doctrine. That's not faith.

I think Christians and atheists or skeptics have a secret fear in relation to hell. I think Christians fear that if they mess up on some core doctrine like ECT then their salvation will be revoked and they will be heretics and go to hell. The rule of thumb ought to be that reading passages based secret fears of God losing his temper is not love and what is not love is not faithful. I think the secret fear of the skeptic is a lot more complex. I'll get to that at the end of the essay. We need to understand why the seeming literal passages don't teach hell as ECT.

 One problem in dealing with the literal passages is knowing what they are. It is very tempting to take as litteral passages that are actually figurative. For example Mat 8: 5:

  And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him, 6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented. 7 And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him. 8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed. 9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. 10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. 11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

 It's tempting to say "O Jesus is talking about some place of weeping and gnashing of teeth,that must mean hell, this has to be literal because the things prior to this phrase are literal." That doesn't make this literal. First of all Jesus is giving a veiled answer because he doesn't wan to say directly "my own people are a bunch of slobs because they wont accept me." He's talking about Jews. He's not necessarily saying they are going to hell, the passage still works if we assume his answer is a symbolic one dealing with the idea of losing their place, or being outside the kingdom. The recurrent phrase "weeping and gnashing of teeth" used often in relation to eternal damnation must be some kind of euphemism. Even if does mean hell it's not a enlightening description. It probably plays upon the symbolism of hell as reference to spiritual death. The passage still works if we make that assumption. But it's clearly not a literal statement. It seems euphemistic. It works just as well if annihilation rather than eternal conscious torment is implied.

 There are passages where Jesus seems to threaten the pharisees with hell, and it's not a pleasant cease to exist hell: Mt 23:33 "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?" First of all that passage still works if it's about a state of ceasing to exist. Think about it: Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can you escape the damnation of ceasing to exist forever?" Works for me. Secondly, it is a prophetic exclamation that evokes the judging aspect of hell. As a symbol of spiritual death that's an appropriate allusion for the shaming of pharisees. There's no real reason to understand it as ECT. We are just moved to do so by the historical association of the word "hell," or words like damnation. That's just begging the question to assume a prori that damnation must be eternal conscious torment and not annihilation.

We need to note the comparision of life and death in relation to salvation and damnation. These are figurative. The words for live (zoe) and death (thanatos) mean literally to be alive or be dead. we  put the special meaning on them by applying them to eternal existence. The Biblical text does this too in borrowing the use of Greek terms. There are other terms used than these but these are the major ones. For life terms such as bios and psyche (biosphere and psyche like psychology).  The converse is loften tranltsed as destruction (the destruction of their souls). 2 Pete 3:16 "His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."(NIV) suntrimma: that which is broken or shattered, a fracture calamity, ruin, destruction. So if we are talking a vase we would know it's literal. Applied to eternal state of affairs in a religious context is necessarily figurative. Annihilation seems pretty much like destruction to me. There is also olethros = destruction: uin, destroy, death "for the destruction of the flesh, said of the external ills and troubles by which the lusts of the flesh are subdued and destroyed"

There are a couple of passages using olethros that might be taken literally. 2Th 1:9 "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power"(NIV). That one seems pretty literal. The destruction is ever lasting but it doesn't say it's conscious. It says from the presence of the Lord which might imply conscious but not stated. Annihilation would also fit. To be exterminated and go while one doesn't sense the Lord's presence would be terrible, but as as inhumane as ECT. The illogic of cruelty is not as sever in this view point. Yet I think the awe inspiring aspect is there. The passage does not say ECT. Then we have 1Ti 6:9 "But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition." (NIV). That also can be taken as annihilation.  Also the only word used for Perdition in the NT. Perdition means destruction and its' used in connotation of damnation. Ro 9:22 "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction." Destruction here no reason why it can't equal annihilation.

 The word used here for perdition is (cross-walk, Strong's):

ap-o'-li-a Noun Feminine
Definition

1. destroying, utter destruction
1. of vessels
2. a perishing, ruin, destruction
1. of money
2. the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell

The definition says it means destruction in hell. That is a gloss by crosswalk or Stong's, it is not a true definition of the word. It's a interpretation based upon reading back Christian doctrine into the meaning of the text, this is a constant short coming of religious lexicons. This is why one should always use Liddell and Scott, it has no theological bias. Lidell and Scott's Intermediate Lexicon, the term is derived form the word apollumai to destroy utterly, to waste utterly. Nothing about hell in it. (p88).


 There are really no literal passages that clearly say "Hey the alternative to eternal life is eternal conscious torment." The door is wide open to read it as cessation of existence rather than ECT. There's nothing unchrsitain about it, even though yes it is unconventional. It's not sissy it's not abandoning the tough manly way of scaring the bageezers out of children. Before dealing lastly with that secret fear of the skeptic I will try to answer the questions posed in the comment section.

davidk says:

If God is just, then the punishment fits the crime. The caveat here is, What is the proper sentence for rejecting the work of Jesus Christ? Is it a greater sin than all other sins?

 I think God looks on the heart. I have no proof of this, one can probably find lots of passages that seem to contradict it, but I just dont' see God as stacking up brownie points and weighing little matters to equal big ones. I think it's all based upon what the heart (that is the deeper will) is doing. If we are seeking God at all coast not out of fear but out of real love, then God is for us and gives us grace and that covers a multitude of sins. Of cousre it just makes logical sense that rejecting the work of Christ is going to be more of an umbrella effect because that would cover all bases. You are rejecting the whole package at once. I stopped seeing hell as "punishment" a long time ago. I know one can find punishment related passages especially in the pharisee communities that produced Matthew.* I see hell as a natural proclivity for those who reject God in their inner most being and they move toward annihilation and away form the life which is Christ. It's just an automatic deal like magnetic force and iron. We do have the freedom of will to go back but there may be a tipping point.

Another question: If one is guilty of one sin and is, therefore, guilty of all, is the person who has led "good" life as reprehensible as a child molester? 

 That's a problem. I am sure there are Catholic theologians (they distinguish between "moral" and "venial" sins) who ponder this laboriously. Even if there is some equalizing of guilt in the ultimate realm, I doubt that God expects us to think this way. We love God we want to please God, we don't want to sin. We don't excuse sin that doesn't mean we need to feel as guilty about spitting on the side walk as we would about mass murder. If we  must think "O God wont hold this agaisnt me it's too trivial" we are thinking the wrong way about pleasing God. We should be thinking "whatever the case may be God's grace is sufficient for me." DavidK had other concerns I'lll answer them in the context of his comments. He points out that the fires of hell are eternal and that God is an all consuming fire, he's asking about a preacher's notion that God himself is the fires of hell. That strikes me as coming form the literalistic school because we can't stack up all metaphors in the Bible and assume they are all literal and they all refer to the same things. For example Lucifer is compared to the morning star ("son of the morning") Isaha 14:12), but Jesus is said to be morning star 2 Pete 1. We cannot assume that Lucifer and Jesus are one and the same. We just assume the metaphor can be applied to both. The question about eternal hell fire assumes the fire is literal. That doesn't mean that the eternal aspect is not the duration of annihilation. There's always the secret fear that hell is literal and if I make the wrong mistake God will blow up and send me there.

That leads me to the secret fear of the skeptics. I believe that  great deal of what motivates atheists on message boards is that secret fear, it's the fear of the believer that they never got over from their "believer days." I think that means they were not strong. Notice, I am not saying they weren't saved. I'm not saying they weren't born again. One can be born again and not grow. One can remain a spiritual infant all one's life. They can't let go of whatever the issue was that took them out of sinc with the faith and they still fear at some level (although they vehemently deny it) that it will all turn out to be the way they secretly feared it would. I don't see that fear accomplishing anything valid. It doesn't prevent them from giving up the faith, it may motivate them to hate God. This is atheists who were fundamentalist. It may not apply to those raised as atheists. A funny thing about those guys. They will say "Christianity is stupid it's all no good. I am totally done with it every aspect of it." Then tell them "I am a liberal theologically, why don't you consider liberal theology?" They will say 'O you are the bastards that are destroying the faith!" I've had long haranges with them and baited them with liberal theology to the ponit that they sound exactly like fundies. Guys who professed totall hatred for the Bible suddenly love it, they have such deep respect for the people who just the other day they called idiots, because they at least are not so stupid to be libeals! why? They don't know.

It's not like they read liberal theology. I have seen atheist claim that liberal theologians are always stupid. Ok show me one, tell his name and what you read by him... [Crickets chirping]... They have not read a page of liberal theology but they are so convinced they are stupid. Then they go on to say all the same stuff extreme fundies say about them. In the Atlantic Larry Alex Taunton writes an article about "Listening to the Young atheist" and some of those guys seem really home sick for the fundie days.

 Now the president of his campus's SSA, Phil was once the president of his Methodist church's youth group. He loved his church ("they weren't just going through the motions"), his pastor ("a rock star trapped in a pastor's body"), and, most of all, his youth leader, Jim ("a passionate man"). Jim's Bible studies were particularly meaningful to him. He admired the fact that Jim didn't dodge the tough chapters or the tough questions: "He didn't always have satisfying answers or answers at all, but he didn't run away from the questions either. The way he taught the Bible made me feel smart."

 I don't take what they say about literal theology seriously becuase they don't know anything about. These guys are clearly in love with an era in their past when they had  youth group that spoke to them and a youth pastor they could admire and they felt at home and they will want to defend the faith from the concerns of that time but some unanswered thing that goes under the heading of "the rational" that led them off and they can't go back.  Well they can't go back because the feel damned I would think. There are a lot of things we don't understand about that situation, and a more exacting research is needed. One thing of which I am certain I don't see the notion of hell as ECT playing a postiive role in any of that. It's not scaring them into staying and it may be part of the reason they leave it certainly plays a role in their animosity toward God.

In both sections of this essay I used great was the graphic. In part 1 Dore's illustration of Dante, and in this one the "Night on Bald Mountain." That's great music of Mussorgsky and superb animation of early Disney. I use the greatness of art to reflect the iconic nature of the hell concept. I think that's it's best feature rather than control through fear, is the metaphor is powerful, and the metaphor is mightier than the literal fear. It's also redemptive. Art if healing and we see the end of the animated scene the daemonic reveling is suddenly interrupted by the ringing of the chruch bell and the demons have no choice but to go back to hell. That is evocative of the healing and redemptive power of grace. Hell as the symbol of spiritual death, judgement and damnation is also by contrast raises the possibility  of salvation.

 see the Night on Bald Mountain excerpt from Fantasia.



 *Because of what Mat says about "the pharisees sit in the seat of Moses so do what they say." I see the Mat community as Pharisee. It was told to us in Acts that many Pharisees had come over to Jesus after his resurrection. The reason is because if they weren't Pharisee they would never say they have the seat of Moses that's what the whole issue with Qumran was about; the faction that became the pharisees stole the priesthood from the Zadakites.

Does the Bible Really Teach That Hell is Eternal Conscious Torment? part 1

from Gustave Doré's (1832-1883) illustrations of Dante's Inferno

I do not believe that the Bible actually teaches that hell is a place of eternal conscious torment. By that I mean, hell is not a place where people who sin and disbelieve are sent to be punished and tortured. I don't believe that God would torture anyone. I certainly don't believe that hell is a place where one is conscious eternally. While I do think that hell is judgment I don't think it's a place where people are conscous eternally of being punished.  I think first of all "going to hell" Is a symbol of spiritual death. That it's a judgement in after life, but rather than leading to eternal conscious torment it leads to the total annihilation of existence. I don't believe that everyone is automatically saved.

My thesis is this: (1) The Bible uses the conept of hell as a symbol of judgment and spiritual death.

(2) It is clearly talking about something, some negative consequence from "hell," but that is not a place of literal fire and brimstone, rather, the "place" of torment is a symbol of spiritual death that comes from being judged.

(3) Judgment comes from rejecting God and closing the heart to truth, it is not something God ordained to befall the rebellious, but an automatic separation that we initiate and we have the power to change while we live, by responding to God's love. The more we turn our backs on God and pout the deeper we get into sepeartion and God cannot do anything about it if we are determined to separate ourselves.

(4) When I say "God can't do anything about it," yes could have made the original set up different, but only by sacrificing other things, such as free will, which very important.

thus I am saying God is limited to logical necessity. He cannot make two contradictory states of affairs that truly contradict logically. Thus to have the valuable aspects of free will and moral decision making there must be consequences which we initiate through our rebellion and which God cannot change given the facts. Specifically I believe that those who reject God and die in separation from God cease to exist. That is fair and humane since that's what they expect anyway. The atheist chooses to cease to exist but in disbelieving he expects this anyway. One must agree it is certainly more compassionate than eteranl conscious torment. The talk we find of flames and darkness is symbolic. It is symbolic of the dread of being judged and condemned, and symbolic of spiritual death. I believe the Bible teaches this and we can examine the passages and see for ourselves.


First, there is no such set up in the OT. There is situation such that good go to heaven to paradise to be rewarded and the bad go to hell to be tormented. This concept was unknown to the Hebrews. It is common knowledge that the Hebrews believed that everyone went to "the pit" or Sheol, which is translated "the grave." This is the idea of the realm of the dead. Everyone went there, not as punishment but that's just the way it was. There were exceptions such as prophets who were taken up to heaven to be with God, but basically no one expected the reward from heaven or the punishment of hell. All that came in this life. The concept of hell came from the Hellenistic culture of the Greeks, imposed upon the Hebrew world in the intertestamental period, though the conquest of the Selucids who succeeded Alexander the Great. But the Hebrews found a corresponding symbol for "tortarus" the Greek Hell, in the valley of Gehenna where they burned trash outside Jerusalem. We know this was a symbol and symbolic use since it was a literal physical place in history. Secondly, I believe that hell is unjust and counter productive. Unjust because eternal torment as punishment for finite sin is just not fair. No amount of pias sanctimony can make it fair. God would not be unfair. Moreover, counterproductive because no one learns anything form hell. I see atheists all the time expressing the attitude "I'm going to hell anyway so what does it matter?" It's not a good idea and the more I think aobut it the more like the solution of a small child it seems. It is not taught in the bible so let's get to it and look at the scholarship and see. Some scholars understand Paul to teach that the wicked disappear. I find this in accord with views I had already come to before I found this article, and before I saw that in Paul:

from a book review (this review is no located on High beam).

"The Formation of Hell: Death and Retribution in the Ancient and Early Christian Worlds." - book reviews
Commonweal, May 5, 1995 by Carl L. Bankston, III

Although the Christian message was, from the beginning, concerned primarily with eternal life, the theme of eternal punishment emerged from apocalyptic Judaism in the pages of the New Testament. Bernstein's reading of the New Testament, however, indicates a diversity of understandings of this punishment among the authors of the Scriptures. Saint Paul, emphasizing the positive teachings of the faith, did not express a clear vision of hell and seems to have implied that the wicked would eventually simply disappear. The authors of the synoptic Gospels, by contrast, describe pains of eternal damnation that balance the joys of eternal salvation.

My view is grounded in St. Paul. The main overview of Biblical teaching is one of diversity. There is no standarized set of explicit assumptions about the nature of heaven and hell. The ancinet Hebrews did not have that view.

Journal of Hebrew Scriptures Volume 5 (2004-2005)


Philip S. Johnston, Shades of Sheol: Death and Afterlife in the Old Testament (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 2002). Pp. 288. Paper, US$22.00. ISBN 0-8308-2687-4.


This volume builds upon Johnston’s 1988 Belfast MTh thesis and his 1993 Cambridge PhD dissertation, but constitutes a substantial reworking and expansion of that material. The result is a comprehensive study that is accessible to non-specialists without sacrificing extensive interaction with scholarly literature on the subject. The material itself is organized under four main categories: Death, The Underworld, The Dead and The Afterlife.

Johnston demonstrates the Hebrew lack of biphercated afterlife:

Finally, Johnston address the question of an Afterlife, a late development in Israelite religious thought. Although Elijah and Elisha bring dead children back to life, Enoch “walked with God” and Elijah ascended in a flaming chariot, none of these were considered normal nor hoped for by others. The only clear references to bodily resurrection occur in Isa 26:19 and Daniel 12:2; extra-biblical references to resurrection (e.g., 2 Macc 7; 14; 1 Enoch 51:1; 61:5; 62:15, 4Q521:12, etc.) date from the 2nd century BCE on, which is consistent with the date of the two biblical texts. Despite afterlife beliefs in the surrounding nations, however, Johnston finds little evidence of direct influence and instead claims that Israel’s eventual belief in an afterlife is rooted in its experience of YHWH’s faithfulness and ongoing presence in their history, eventually understood as extending beyond death itself.

This view is actually pretty standard among scholars.


BNET reprint Comonweal, Ibid

I found Bernstein's close reading of the Hebrew Bible and of the Book of Enoch, the major piece of evidence outside the writings of Josephus of a late antique Jewish belief in punishment after death, more original than his review of Greco-Roman ideas. Much of the latter seems to rest on scholarly interpretations that have long been common currency. This may be a matter of familiarity, however, and Bernstein does bring together a great deal of material in a highly readable style, so that almost anyone will find some new ideas and information in the collection of pre-Christian beliefs assembled here.

That says that punishment in after life was an idea the Jews had in late antiquity.We can see from the use of the termenology for "Hell" that the modern concepts with which fundamentalists are embeaued and atheists are outragged are just no there. The only word used for "hell" in the OT is Sheol, which does not mean hell and does not corrospond to genhena, it means "gave." It's death or the place of the dead, not necessarily a place of torment.


from the same commweal review of Bertstien's article:

The most common term for the Underworld itself is Sheol but even it appears infrequently. The term never appears in third person narrative nor legal material, but only in first person contexts: i.e., an individual encounters Sheol directly and personally. Clear synonyms include bôr, bĕʾēr, and šaḥat (all meaning “pit”) and ʾăbaddôn (“destruction”); Johnston also considers a number of texts in which either earth\ground or water may also be synonyms for Sheol but concludes, “Water, like earth, is associated with the underworld, but is not confused with it.” (p. 124). Descriptions of Sheol are sparse, but it is a place where existence simply continued, without any vital experience for the dead. The term itself may have derived from the god Šu-wa-la, mentioned in texts from Emar, who is either a minor underworld deity or another name for Ereshkigal, the Queen of the underworld, but any divine associations had been lost by the Israelite period. Ibid

Sheol (OT) translated Hell really means "the Grave."

We can see that Sheol means the grave by the use made of Crosswalk software in its Heberw lexicon.Crosswalk takes its Hebrew from Strongs and Vines. Both are inadequate, but cross walk smooths them out and waters them down even more with interprative definitions. Thus we can see what I'm talking about in the use they make of words, but they also add their own effects. Crosswalk defition of Sheol

Sh@'owl TWOT - 2303c
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
sheh-ole' Noun Feminine
Definition

1. sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit
1. the underworld
2. Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead
1. place of no return
2. without praise of God
3. wicked sent there for punishment
4. righteous not abandoned to it
5. of the place of exile (fig)
6. of extreme degradation in sin


It does say the grave and abode of the dead but when everything else it says reflects that it adds, wicked sent there for punishment. But it can't produce one verse to say that. There are no verses in the OT that say wicked are sent to sheol for punishment.


For a list of passages using Sheol in the OT go here.

Definition of  Gehenna (hell) in the NT.

on Crosswalk:

Hell is the place of the future punishment call "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.

Essentially it says it's a symbol. The literal is a valley where they burn garbage.





The first passage seems to be quite literal, but if we consider it a little more in depth we can see it does not support eternal conscious torment. Mt 5:22

"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever shall say to his brother, 'Raca,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

Hell used figuratively

Jesus is here using hell as a figure of speech, a poetic image, to illustrate the depth of depravity in defaming another human being by calling him "a fool." He builds a progregtion of wrongs and their consequences:

anger with brother: go to court

call brother name: go to supreme court

Call brother a fool: worthy of hell.

Wrong, more wrong, most wrong. Its' a means of illustrating the depth of wickedness in disvaluing others. He does not say in that passage "hell is a real litteral place." doesn't say it's eternal conscious torment.


The next two are in the same context and one is just a reinforcement of the other. They are both symbolic uses and serve to illustrate Jesus' sarcasm toward excuses to sin:

Mt 5:29 "And if your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

Mt 5:30 "And if your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to go into hell.


these are both in the same context. The are clearly figurative and hyperbole. It's totally ridiculous to think that Jesus would really command us to cut off our hands or pluck out our eyes to keep from lusting>

The immediate context is about holy living:

17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law R135 or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 "For truly I say to you, until R136 heaven and earth pass away, not the F65 smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others F66 to do the same, shall be called least in R137 the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps F67 and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 "For I say to you that unless your righteousness R138 surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

He's talking about righteousness surpassing the pharisees, but the pharisees were super legalistic and built a fence around the law to assure compliance in the most legalistic fashion. How could anyone be more legalistic then they were? He's not talking about being legalistic, or even literalistic. He says heaven and earth shall pass away before the word of God will. Sot he basic premise with which he deals is living out the word of God. He's concerned with actually keeping the spirit of the law. Go further in context:

Now of course atheists are going to say that he really means this. They will say this is just part of the lunatic nature of religious extremism. AT the very least they will ask, as they always do, how I know it's hyperbolic. How does one ever know when a literary device is used? Many atheists have said to me "It's doesn't say it's a literary devise." Of course not, they never do! You are not supposed to say it, then it wouldn't be a device. Clearly it is because it's absurd to say pluck out your eye or cut off your hand. There's an easier way to tell. What do people say when they try to stop sinning and they can't? "I just can't do this, I can't stop lusting that's just the way I am made." Jesus is saying that is an excuse. You can stop it and if you think that's good excuse then surely its important enough that you should pluck out your eye or cut off your hand. But the point of it is of course that you don't have to do that, you can learn to control yourself if you really want to.

Given the high probability that this is figurative then it's obvious the consequence is also figurative, having the whole body cast into hell fire is figurative.

Mt 10:28 "And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
He's using the poetic symbolism of hell as the ultimate drama, the ultiamte negative consequence to drive home the point that spiritual power is more important than physical power, that eteranl life is what's important.

Mt 23:15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel about on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

Using the judgment aspect of hell to drive home the point of the hypocritical nature of the pharisees.

Mt 23:33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how shall you escape the sentence of hell?

hell is a sentence. That doesn't make it eternal conscious torment. It is the symbol of spiritual death and the cessation of existence. The hypocrites wont escape the judgment aspects of hell. But that doesn't mean they will experience them eternally.

The same figurative ideas pertain. Jesus other uses of hell in parables such as the sheep and goats of Mat 25:33 also are clearly symbols since they are used in parables which by their nature are figures and symbols.


Not one of those passages says hell is eternal conscious torment. No verse actually says that. No verse in the Bible gives an expository description of what hell is or what it's about.


Tartaro One other words used for hell, Tartaro, or Tartarus in English, from Greek Myth.

Tartaro:Definition

1. the name of the subterranean region, doleful and dark, regarded by the ancient Greeks as the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to Gehenna of the Jews 2. to thrust down to Tartarus, to hold captive in Tartarus

Only verse used: 2Pe 2:4 "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;"


2Pete is not authoritative enough to build a whole theology upon. Most scholars believe it is pseudopgraphal, of late origin, and we don't know who wrote it. It either copies a large part fo Jude, or Jude copies it. Neither book shares the weight of the Gospels.

figurative sue in James

Jas 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by hell.

I think this is Gehenna. But It's clearly figurative he's speaking figuratively of the tung and comparing it to hell fire.

Atheist anger is about power

The horrible secret weapon of
Christianity

Hear the song (if you can take it)

This post on CARM, by atheist Darklady, reminded me of another post on this blog years ago:

In response to a discussion about hell I had joked that hell was having to listen to Petula Clark's song "Downtown" Over and over angain for eternity. This atheist say "how dare you try to scare with such a threat." He was not playing along wiht the joke. From the things he said it seemed very clear he really thought I was seriously threatening him. That's why I put up the picture of the album with that as the secret weapon.

This is the post by darklady that reminded me of that:

Anyone who has been in an abusive relationship will recognize this:

First the put downs
“You're NOTHING without me."
Then the threats
"If you even THINK about leaving me..."
And then blame game
"You BROUGHT this upon yourself"

But wait, this seems familiar…

"Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. " John 15:4-6

God thinks we are nothing without him …

"If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”" 2 Pet 2:20-22

Then there are the threats

"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned" Rom 5:12
And the bible plays the blame game very well

This is the post I put up in response to the statement about "how dare you try to threaten me." It was called "to know God is to love God."

I just finished this page yesterday.Why I don't believe in hell. It's too long for the blog (4 pages). So I put it up on Doxa. I really should have done it years ago, it's such a basic issue. I write this in response to a commenter on the comments section who was posting in response to the piece "no Will Greater than My Own."

9:14 PM
Delete
Goliath said...

Ah, at last, you've begun to realize that even if your god exists, not everyone would want to follow him.

Not that I believe that either exists, but I would MUCH rather follow Satan than the xian god. In fact, I would rather die and spend eternity in hell than follow the xian god.

9:36 PM


My response that's your prerogative and your problem. I will just say that you don't know God. you don't know what God is like. Maybe I dont' either but a i have a general idea. you can't go by the OT. you have to go by Jesus. So far all the atheist attempts to show that Jesus was no good have been less than impressive, for me.

I'll look you up in a million an and see what you think then. I just warn you of one thing:

I do happen to know, a little known secret of the universe, a large part of hell of his having to hear the replay of "Down Town" Petula Clark over and over again forever. think about it.


Delete
Goliath said...

I know everything I need to know about the xian god, and I know everything that I need to know about your vile faith.

I hate Jesus, I hate the xian god, and I would destroy both of them if I could.

"I do happen to know, a little known secret of the universe, a large part of hell of his having to hear the replay of 'Down Town' Petula Clark over and over again forever. think about it."

ROFL! Is that the best you can do to scare me into groveling before your god? You're pathetic.


Metacrock said...



I am not interested into scaring you into anything. You are only hurting yourself.

6:38 PM
Delete
Goliath said...

Then why try to intimidate me by telling me what hell might be like?

Again: I would rather burn in hell than follow your god. Deal with it.


Metacrock said...

that is nuts. to really think that is a serious attempt to scare anyone? I can think of a lot more scary fates than having to listen to "Downtown."

this is something called "humor." Are you so demented you don't even know what "funny" means?

If you bothered to learn more about my ideas you would know that I do not believe in hell as a place of eternal conscious torment. So you are just hurting yourself because you are missing the very essence of what love is by rejecting God because God is love.

scary hu?

If you are just looking for fight you wont get one. I have better thins to do. Go troll someone else. If you really care bout ideas I am wiling to talk but you have to shed the bad boy image thing and grow up and really think.


I am not trying to humiliate this guy or to ridicule him for thinking my joke was a serious threat, although I think it should be obvious it was not. Three things occurred to me as a result of this exchange:

(1) again we see the real issue underneath it all is power. Notice his idea of accepting the existence of God is "groveling." For one reason or another its a power issue. I don't know anything about this guy by my imagination is working overtime playing on images of overly zealous religious people trying to manipulate people into doing their will. Ultimately I don't believe that all the hurt feelings and bitter hatred of hate group atheism is all the fault of religious people. But I certainly don't think we've handled things right.

(2) atheist assumptions about religious people are stereotypes that cause them to cast the issues in certain preset terms.

(3) Perhaps we condition people to think they know what God would be like, or what the Christian idea of God would be like by dealing with Christians. How else could it be? That they think they know what God "is" or would be like is purely a function of two things:

(a) how Christians have treated them

(b) the why they have been conditioned by Christians to read the Bible.

This is why I think it is important up front to get out the message about hell. I urge you all to read those pages because I feel I make a pretty good case for the idea that the Bible does not even teach that hell is eternal conscious torment. It's important for people to understand this because the atheist agenda is wrapped up in propagandizing about Christianity as a punitive and operant notion of religious experience.

two paradigms: operant vs existentialist

The choice of paradigms on the nature of religion lies between two poles, a punitive-operant religion vs an existential religion. Punitive I think we all get drift, hell is thought to be punishment for disbelief, sin and generally doing bad. It is also seen as a means so scaring people into compliance as our friend above thinks.Operant (like B.F. Skinner's positive and negative reinforcement) because through the promise of heaven and the threat of hell one is manipulated into changing behavior on a punishment/reward basis. Existentialist means it is not about punishments or manipulation but a response to one's existential experince of life in the world--based upon personal experiences and aimed at understanding individualistic goals and ends of a person's life rather than fitting into a preset mold of behavior.

While we can't do that much about the way other Christians react to people, we can try to check our own reactions (I do know I still have a long way to go in that area) and we can try to clarify problems with the atheist reading of our belief system. Toward that end I would explain that since I don't believe that hell is eternal conscious torment, I can't really try to scare compliance out of people. There have been instances on message boards where I have told atheists about my view son hell and always some group of them will say "then how can you scare people into being good?" I can only think that they approach the problem from this angle because they feel people have tried to scare them into being good and that's the only way they can see to do it.

The existential paradigm of religion is so much more effective because scaring compliance. Scaring people into obedience defeats the purpose of knowing God and it's really ineffective in the long run. It's much more effective if people internalize the values of the good. This is why God sets up the world in the way it is, why we have to seek truth instead of being issued briefings in press conferences when we are born. Because the search leads to internalizing values and values give us commitment for a life time. Belief in hell is a waste. It's childish and it is wasted because no one learns in hell. You cant' come back and try it again, by the time you know you were wrong its' too late to change. Punishment may be just and there should be consequences for evil, but I think ceasing to exist is consequence enough, and humane. Please read the link at the top about Why I don't believe in hell. So I don't believe God's aim is to scare but to enthrall and to bring us to a point of internalizing God's values. We do that by knowing God.

Atheists will no doubt see it as a game and a pretense, but, it is a relationship. One cannot "know enough about the Christian God." you can't get the idea from words on paper or sermons on Sunday. It's not a fair test to go by how Christians treat you because Christians are at all different stages in their walk with God, some don't even have any idea they can know God in a personal way. That being said that is no excuse to treat people badly. We as Christians have to understand how we come across and respond in love, not manipulation. I know I am the worst at responding in love. I have some real idiotic mistakes in lashing out in anger to abuse of atheists. But this doesn't give any clear picture of God, even though they will draw conclusions about God based upon the way we act.

That is no better than trying to know a person by what others tell you. You ever had a friend who had another friend he was always talking about. This guy is the greatest ever, and when you meet that person, nothing like the description. You have to know someone before you can really see how great that person is. You have to actually know God. This brings up the invisible friend effect.


Atheists use this as derision, its' like a child with an imaginary friend. Well is it? In some ways it is. Imaginary friends are said to be positive things by child psychologists.Through the assumption of God's active presence in our lives we can model holy living just as through imaginary friends children are modeling real friendships latter for life. It really depends upon the extent to which people take it. I've never been comfortable with "Jesus is here invisibly" idea. I am not comfortable with the way of relating to God that assumes God is saving me a parking place. Some Christians sort of assume they are experiencing God and then letting God step into such occasions. That's actually not all bad really. The sense of God's presence, or what we call "God's presence" is documented over and over again in empirical studies as a valid life transforming experince and something that really changes people's lives for the better in dramatic ways. Some studies show that the mystical type experience is the most mature form of Christianity. The study by Robert Voyle shows this, and it links Christian experience to mystical experience.



That being the case we have no choice but to assume that the experience is the sensation of a reality that is actually present to us at the time.

The atheist can't evaluate this by just hearing about or reading about. I thought people who had such experiences were insane until I had one my self. It's as simple as this, you have to experience it. Its' a say of life, it is not not just one more hypothesis in a life of hypothesis testing. It's a relationship and develops over time. Not all Christians think they hear God, or even believe in that sort of interactive interpersonal relationship with God. There are many kinds of spirituality and many ways of relating to God. I went through my Charismatic phase in the 80s. I still believe some of what I picked up in that era, the "gifts" for example, miracles and healing. But I have not tried to interact in that way, that God is my invisable friend, in some time. That is, in my opinion, a phase. Its' the lower level of stages along the road to mystical union. Mystical union is the highest level of relationship with God and most Christians don't even know about it and will never get there. I will never get there in this life. But it is something, I beileve, we will all experience in after life.

Mystical union is not in the Bible as such. There are verses that pertain to it, but its' not stated explicitly as such. It's part of the voluminous literature of Christian mysticism.

Diverse Expressions of Spirituality


There are as many different views of spirituality and styles of relating to God as there are people to do the relating. Christians are very different. G.K. Chesterton was as different from Billy Graham as was Adli Stevenson from Barry Goldwater. Which is to say as different as Clinton from Bush. Even within the closed ranks of Christian mystics is very diverse. You don't have to relate to God like a big guy in the sky.You can relate to God like a principle or an idea. We can internalize the values and just learn to discern the will of God without having to "hear" or sense works or ideas. Atheists can't understand this because they have to assume it's all made up and so they can only go by words on paper. But they don't even bother to read anything except the bible and that they read for loopholes rather than understanding.

Atheists often confuse popular piety with Christian doctrine and spiritual experience. Popular piety is neither, it is not doctrine nor is it spirituality, at least not in a deep sense. The real depth in spirituality is the mystics; St. John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, and mystical writers not saints, such as blessed John Riseborke, Madame Guyon, Baron Von Huggle. There are hundreds, or thousands. They are all different. They are a different form each other as Plato from Thomas Kuhn. Reading them will only give us a clue. You can't know God until you open your heart to ho him and begin a relationship with him. Until then it's only stuff you hear about and assumptions not in evidence. The first step is open your heart to God's love. Let God love you. If you think love is control and manipulation then you are just missing the boat on what life is all about.

Being a Christian is about knowing God in a personal way. This means experiencing God's presence, but it means a lot more than that too. It's a personalized relationship which fits the individual's own style; it's a love relationship:

1Jo 4:7

Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.
1Jo 4:8

Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

This is something that has to be experienced to be understood. Once it is experienced it is known. The atheist claims to "just know" there's no God don't stack up to that because they are by their very definition the absence of a relationship. One cannot experince the fact of a thing not existing. We can experience the lack of food, clothes, shelter, taxes, peace, whatever, but that doesn't prove these things don't exist, merely experiencing a want and a lack is not proof of anything.Experiencing the presence is proof of something. Atheists may assume or speculate as "what that really is experience of" but that is not the same as experiencing it. To have this kind of relationship with God is to know God. To know God is to love God because God is love. It is also knowing that God loves us. No one can understand this fom outside the relationship and no one can judge God. People who think they are rejecting God are really just rejecting love.

The horrible secret weapon of
Christianity


This post on CARM, by atheist Darklady, reminded me of another post on this blog years ago:

In response to a discussion about hell I had joked that hell was having to listen to Petula Clark's song "Downtown" Over and over angain for eternity. This atheist say "how dare you try to scare with such a threat." He was not playing along wiht the joke. From the things he said it seemed very clear he really thought I was seriously threatening him. That's why I put up the picture of the album with that as the secret weapon.

This is the post by darklady that reminded me of that:

Anyone who has been in an abusive relationship will recognize this:

First the put downs
“You're NOTHING without me."
Then the threats
"If you even THINK about leaving me..."
And then blame game
"You BROUGHT this upon yourself"

But wait, this seems familiar…

"Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. " John 15:4-6

God thinks we are nothing without him …

"If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”" 2 Pet 2:20-22

Then there are the threats

"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned" Rom 5:12
And the bible plays the blame game very well

This is the post I put up in response to the statement about "how dare you try to threaten me." It was called "to know God is to love God."

I just finished this page yesterday.Why I don't believe in hell. It's too long for the blog (4 pages). So I put it up on Doxa. I really should have done it years ago, it's such a basic issue. I write this in response to a commenter on the comments section who was posting in response to the piece "no Will Greater than My Own."

9:14 PM
Delete
Goliath said...

Ah, at last, you've begun to realize that even if your god exists, not everyone would want to follow him.

Not that I believe that either exists, but I would MUCH rather follow Satan than the xian god. In fact, I would rather die and spend eternity in hell than follow the xian god.

9:36 PM


My response that's your prerogative and your problem. I will just say that you don't know God. you don't know what God is like. Maybe I dont' either but a i have a general idea. you can't go by the OT. you have to go by Jesus. So far all the atheist attempts to show that Jesus was no good have been less than impressive, for me.

I'll look you up in a million an and see what you think then. I just warn you of one thing:

I do happen to know, a little known secret of the universe, a large part of hell of his having to hear the replay of "Down Town" Petula Clark over and over again forever. think about it.


Delete
Goliath said...

I know everything I need to know about the xian god, and I know everything that I need to know about your vile faith.

I hate Jesus, I hate the xian god, and I would destroy both of them if I could.

"I do happen to know, a little known secret of the universe, a large part of hell of his having to hear the replay of 'Down Town' Petula Clark over and over again forever. think about it."

ROFL! Is that the best you can do to scare me into groveling before your god? You're pathetic.


Metacrock said...



I am not interested into scaring you into anything. You are only hurting yourself.

6:38 PM
Delete
Goliath said...

Then why try to intimidate me by telling me what hell might be like?

Again: I would rather burn in hell than follow your god. Deal with it.


Metacrock said...

that is nuts. to really think that is a serious attempt to scare anyone? I can think of a lot more scary fates than having to listen to "Downtown."

this is something called "humor." Are you so demented you don't even know what "funny" means?

If you bothered to learn more about my ideas you would know that I do not believe in hell as a place of eternal conscious torment. So you are just hurting yourself because you are missing the very essence of what love is by rejecting God because God is love.

scary hu?

If you are just looking for fight you wont get one. I have better thins to do. Go troll someone else. If you really care bout ideas I am wiling to talk but you have to shed the bad boy image thing and grow up and really think.


I am not trying to humiliate this guy or to ridicule him for thinking my joke was a serious threat, although I think it should be obvious it was not. Three things occurred to me as a result of this exchange:

(1) again we see the real issue underneath it all is power. Notice his idea of accepting the existence of God is "groveling." For one reason or another its a power issue. I don't know anything about this guy by my imagination is working overtime playing on images of overly zealous religious people trying to manipulate people into doing their will. Ultimately I don't believe that all the hurt feelings and bitter hatred of hate group atheism is all the fault of religious people. But I certainly don't think we've handled things right.

(2) atheist assumptions about religious people are stereotypes that cause them to cast the issues in certain preset terms.

(3) Perhaps we condition people to think they know what God would be like, or what the Christian idea of God would be like by dealing with Christians. How else could it be? That they think they know what God "is" or would be like is purely a function of two things:

(a) how Christians have treated them

(b) the why they have been conditioned by Christians to read the Bible.

This is why I think it is important up front to get out the message about hell. I urge you all to read those pages because I feel I make a pretty good case for the idea that the Bible does not even teach that hell is eternal conscious torment. It's important for people to understand this because the atheist agenda is wrapped up in propagandizing about Christianity as a punitive and operant notion of religious experience.

two paradigms: operant vs existentialist

The choice of paradigms on the nature of religion lies between two poles, a punitive-operant religion vs an existential religion. Punitive I think we all get drift, hell is thought to be punishment for disbelief, sin and generally doing bad. It is also seen as a means so scaring people into compliance as our friend above thinks.Operant (like B.F. Skinner's positive and negative reinforcement) because through the promise of heaven and the threat of hell one is manipulated into changing behavior on a punishment/reward basis. Existentialist means it is not about punishments or manipulation but a response to one's existential experince of life in the world--based upon personal experiences and aimed at understanding individualistic goals and ends of a person's life rather than fitting into a preset mold of behavior.

While we can't do that much about the way other Christians react to people, we can try to check our own reactions (I do know I still have a long way to go in that area) and we can try to clarify problems with the atheist reading of our belief system. Toward that end I would explain that since I don't believe that hell is eternal conscious torment, I can't really try to scare compliance out of people. There have been instances on message boards where I have told atheists about my view son hell and always some group of them will say "then how can you scare people into being good?" I can only think that they approach the problem from this angle because they feel people have tried to scare them into being good and that's the only way they can see to do it.

The existential paradigm of religion is so much more effective because scaring compliance. Scaring people into obedience defeats the purpose of knowing God and it's really ineffective in the long run. It's much more effective if people internalize the values of the good. This is why God sets up the world in the way it is, why we have to seek truth instead of being issued briefings in press conferences when we are born. Because the search leads to internalizing values and values give us commitment for a life time. Belief in hell is a waste. It's childish and it is wasted because no one learns in hell. You cant' come back and try it again, by the time you know you were wrong its' too late to change. Punishment may be just and there should be consequences for evil, but I think ceasing to exist is consequence enough, and humane. Please read the link at the top about Why I don't believe in hell. So I don't believe God's aim is to scare but to enthrall and to bring us to a point of internalizing God's values. We do that by knowing God.

Atheists will no doubt see it as a game and a pretense, but, it is a relationship. One cannot "know enough about the Christian God." you can't get the idea from words on paper or sermons on Sunday. It's not a fair test to go by how Christians treat you because Christians are at all different stages in their walk with God, some don't even have any idea they can know God in a personal way. That being said that is no excuse to treat people badly. We as Christians have to understand how we come across and respond in love, not manipulation. I know I am the worst at responding in love. I have some real idiotic mistakes in lashing out in anger to abuse of atheists. But this doesn't give any clear picture of God, even though they will draw conclusions about God based upon the way we act.

That is no better than trying to know a person by what others tell you. You ever had a friend who had another friend he was always talking about. This guy is the greatest ever, and when you meet that person, nothing like the description. You have to know someone before you can really see how great that person is. You have to actually know God. This brings up the invisible friend effect.


Atheists use this as derision, its' like a child with an imaginary friend. Well is it? In some ways it is. Imaginary friends are said to be positive things by child psychologists.Through the assumption of God's active presence in our lives we can model holy living just as through imaginary friends children are modeling real friendships latter for life. It really depends upon the extent to which people take it. I've never been comfortable with "Jesus is here invisibly" idea. I am not comfortable with the way of relating to God that assumes God is saving me a parking place. Some Christians sort of assume they are experiencing God and then letting God step into such occasions. That's actually not all bad really. The sense of God's presence, or what we call "God's presence" is documented over and over again in empirical studies as a valid life transforming experince and something that really changes people's lives for the better in dramatic ways. Some studies show that the mystical type experience is the most mature form of Christianity. The study by Robert Voyle shows this, and it links Christian experience to mystical experience.



That being the case we have no choice but to assume that the experience is the sensation of a reality that is actually present to us at the time.

The atheist can't evaluate this by just hearing about or reading about. I thought people who had such experiences were insane until I had one my self. It's as simple as this, you have to experience it. Its' a say of life, it is not not just one more hypothesis in a life of hypothesis testing. It's a relationship and develops over time. Not all Christians think they hear God, or even believe in that sort of interactive interpersonal relationship with God. There are many kinds of spirituality and many ways of relating to God. I went through my Charismatic phase in the 80s. I still believe some of what I picked up in that era, the "gifts" for example, miracles and healing. But I have not tried to interact in that way, that God is my invisable friend, in some time. That is, in my opinion, a phase. Its' the lower level of stages along the road to mystical union. Mystical union is the highest level of relationship with God and most Christians don't even know about it and will never get there. I will never get there in this life. But it is something, I beileve, we will all experience in after life.

Mystical union is not in the Bible as such. There are verses that pertain to it, but its' not stated explicitly as such. It's part of the voluminous literature of Christian mysticism.

Diverse Expressions of Spirituality


There are as many different views of spirituality and styles of relating to God as there are people to do the relating. Christians are very different. G.K. Chesterton was as different from Billy Graham as was Adli Stevenson from Barry Goldwater. Which is to say as different as Clinton from Bush. Even within the closed ranks of Christian mystics is very diverse. You don't have to relate to God like a big guy in the sky.You can relate to God like a principle or an idea. We can internalize the values and just learn to discern the will of God without having to "hear" or sense works or ideas. Atheists can't understand this because they have to assume it's all made up and so they can only go by words on paper. But they don't even bother to read anything except the bible and that they read for loopholes rather than understanding.

Atheists often confuse popular piety with Christian doctrine and spiritual experience. Popular piety is neither, it is not doctrine nor is it spirituality, at least not in a deep sense. The real depth in spirituality is the mystics; St. John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, and mystical writers not saints, such as blessed John Riseborke, Madame Guyon, Baron Von Huggle. There are hundreds, or thousands. They are all different. They are a different form each other as Plato from Thomas Kuhn. Reading them will only give us a clue. You can't know God until you open your heart to ho him and begin a relationship with him. Until then it's only stuff you hear about and assumptions not in evidence. The first step is open your heart to God's love. Let God love you. If you think love is control and manipulation then you are just missing the boat on what life is all about.

Being a Christian is about knowing God in a personal way. This means experiencing God's presence, but it means a lot more than that too. It's a personalized relationship which fits the individual's own style; it's a love relationship:

1Jo 4:7

Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.
1Jo 4:8

Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

This is something that has to be experienced to be understood. Once it is experienced it is known. The atheist claims to "just know" there's no God don't stack up to that because they are by their very definition the absence of a relationship. One cannot experince the fact of a thing not existing. We can experience the lack of food, clothes, shelter, taxes, peace, whatever, but that doesn't prove these things don't exist, merely experiencing a want and a lack is not proof of anything.Experiencing the presence is proof of something. Atheists may assume or speculate as "what that really is experience of" but that is not the same as experiencing it. To have this kind of relationship with God is to know God. To know God is to love God because God is love. It is also knowing that God loves us. No one can understand this fom outside the relationship and no one can judge God. People who think they are rejecting God are really just rejecting love.

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My Views on Hell and Salvation

The recent discussion I think illustrates the need to rehash my views on these topics. A good starting point is a discussion I had on my message boards with a friend calling himself "Superfund." This was December 29, 2009.

Superfund wrote:Hi m8,

Let my say I may have sounded a tad too critical when I referred to you article in the other post, It might have had something to do with, "I have no respect for 99.9% of atheists, that's true, or Christians either, in terms of being thinkers." Just me trying to shape up to muscle in on that %1! :P
Jokes aside having looked again at your article, I can see the benefit for people who are looking to move on & up from the belief of eternal punishment. In that respect the article is excellent, It logically outlines why a belief in a literal hell is not reasonable and I could see it being of great help to someone.

This is Superfund recaping the points I make on my "Why I don't Believe in Hell" essays.

Just to recap;
(1) Hell was not part of the ancient Hebrew understanding of afterlife and is not in the OT.
(2) The entrance of hell into Hebrew thought can be traced from the Hellenistic culture which became part of Hebrew experience in the intertestamental period.
(3) Hell is never discussed clearly in any expository prose, it is almost always found in either symbolic, or apokolliptic or figurative language.
(4) It's use as a symbol of spiritual death makes more sense.


That’s all fine and good except for point 4. I take exception to not only literal belief in eternal punishment but also this;

Meta:

we have to distinguish here between the point itself, that hell is a metaphor for spiritual death, which is and that is easily proved, and what we make of that point. spiritual death doesn't necessary mean cessation of existence but that's my interpretation. It's most begin version would say it's just a matter of being depressed, not growing, not moving closer to God but is not indicative of any after life condition. Personally I think it's more than that but that would be an alternative reading.

Superfund:

if you don’t make the grade you’re out. Basically acknowledge God properly or God will abandon you in death, is it not what this amounts to?

Meta:

That is not a true interpretation of what I said. That's putting a spin on it I tired to avoid and with which I disagree. Ceasing to exist is the natural and logical outcome of rejection of God. God is trying to help us not fall prey to that outcome, it's not a punishment for not getting it right, it's just the way its' going to be if we don't take heed. Like your father tells you over and over not to put your fork in the light socket. Then you decide you just gotta see what happens and you get electrictued. Your father didn't make you do it he tried to stop you. You decided to do it. That's just what happens when you do it.

Or another way to understand it, atheist want to cease existing. that's the thing they choose to believe will happen. they could choose to believe something else but they don't so I assume they want that but in any case they mostly make peace with it. So what's the difference? why is it suddenly such a terrible thing when you think God is doing it as a punishment but then it's fine and something you make peace with otherwise?

But I do not see it as a punishment. It's like we are headed for a waterfall. We going down the river and its peaceful in a our little boat and don't realize there's a huge falls we are moving toward. God is on the bank saying "look out!" Not God's fault if we go over.

Superfund

You mentioned about dead atheists, I suppose they don’t quite cut it, what about homosexuals, I know at least one "gay" person that point blank refuses to even think about anything religious or anything to do with god, another deadie? How do you devine who and what is acceptable for continued existance and how could someone be really confident that they have in fact qualified?

Meta:

So you want to believe what? If you have an atheistic world you and that other guy are going to die and cease to exist right? Obviously you have managed to make peace with that. What's the problem? If you cease to exist and you are not suffering or in some form of hell then why would it be any different or less what you want just becuase God is doing it? Although of course I don't see it as something God is doing but actually is working to prevent happening. You want us to believe that if anyone is saved then all are saved no matter what their attitude or actions, why? why is there no room in your world for laws and order and doing wht's right? why would it be unfair to give the person who does the right thing a reward and to punish the one's who refuse the right thing?

I'm not saying that I believe it's like that a punishment but suppose it is. If it's not cruel and your not suffering and it's what you get anyway what's the big deal?



superfund

How can the beliefs and mistakes of a lot of people or any unevolved being be punishable by condemnation, whether its hell or spiritual death?
No offence (and not forgetting what I initially wrote in the 1st paragraph) I find the theology weak (imho.)

Meta:
By being sinful? that's like saying how can the holocaust be punishable? How were they do know it's wrong to take millions of people out of their homes and destory their lives treat them like animals castrate and torture them and kill them gas chambers? that's just a cultural thing right? you believe that? You don't think there are any cases where we can say 'that is wrong?"


Super

I have more to say but basicly i'd like you to elaborate on your 4th point.

Meta:

(1) It's not set up as a punishment for believing the wrong things. Belief is not somthing one can be punished for. In the old days people thought it was because you were supposed to believe what you were told. But that's just primitive nonsense. To punish for bleief would be idiotically cruel.

(2) We can punish actions, actions can be evil. We know better. We have a moral law on the heart that makes us feel bad when we murder. All people feel it except in societies that really decaying.

(3) ceasing to exist is a natural consequence of rejecting God not set up as a punishment for belief but the outcome functions as a defacto punishment for rejecting the good, not for believing the wrong thing but for living your life in a direction that takes away form the right thing (not being a Christian but love, expressing love). The overall direction of a life that rejects God (ie the good, love) is that it winds up in evil acts. This rejection of the good produces separation form the good.

Now that's just my opinon. I can't really prove that that's what I think happens. What I can prove is that hell is symbolic of spiritual death. WE can define spiritual death any number of ways.


Super

Also Merry Christmas mate :) and thanks for these boards. I've been a reader here mainly for what? years now on and off and I value them and the space you provide. Cheers!

Meta
thanks buddy I apprecaite that. I think this board has been around since maybe 2 years? Before that I had sense of the numinous that was around since summer of 2000.