the Israel in Egypt debate

My friend "I'm Skeptical," who is a valued member of my blogger community,l did a comment on my position about the Exodus it calls for an involed amswer. So I am amsweromg it here

: The thesis I will defend: I don't know about miraclesor pleagues, orr Mses or partimgofthe seabut I am arguimg simply that there are good reasons to suspect that some Hebrews were at one time slaves in Egypt.

Skep: Archaeological data? You mean because there were 4-room reed dwellings in Egypt, and Israelis also used 4-room dwellings? But we don't know who built them or who lived in them. So your contention is that they could have been made by Israelis, but there is no proof of that, and they could just as well been made by native Egyptians.

It is the opinon of professional archaeolosits. they could compare with other Egyptian dwellings, and if the only one's like that are cannonite. that's reaspn to think Cannanites were there. That's not the only support.

Skep: Furthermore, there is not one single written record to corroborate that, in a land where they kept records of everything.

I think there is. One source, Dr. Douglas Petrovich’s book Origins of the Hebrews:claims new evidence Proving Hebrews lived in Egypt,But how would they know? Are they going to say "the people who will become the nation of Israe"? they would not know. Remember I am not defending the pleagues or any of the detials of Exodus.

Skep:There is no record of the mass enslavement, or the exodus, no names mentioned. There are no artifacts left behind that are distinctly Israeli. There is nothing in the archaeological record that clearly indicates their presence there.

I am not defindibg their mass enslvement but they could have been in Lowli position they would latter descriobe as slavery the Israelites I mean.There references to the Eperou which may be Hebrew. But if they were just canonites the Egyptions would have no resom to call them Israelites.
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Skep: If there had been millions of them enslaved in Egypt, there would be some trace of that. If those millions made spent 40 years in the Arabian peninsula, there would be some trace of that. But there's nothing. That's archaeological data. And that's why the greater archaeological community doesn't believe it.

I never said there were millions, the Bible doesn't say that either,but how would they have a trace? If therewas No Jospeh and no Moeses how are goigto identify a bucg if Cabbiutes as futrue Israelites? The appeal to "they greater cheologocal community" is ideological not logical. Foirst the gratercomunity ismade up of secularmimded people who ho rleigious alloence. They have o stidiedit, they haveproofit's not true, they only react it an ideologocal princkple they clig to naterialist assumptions.

Hey Skep please try to remember this. I have ebough respet for archaeology and scientific method to doubt theexistenceo of Jophen and Moses,or at least to ut the in a faith only caegry. But there is noway they can bw there no Hebrews im Egyt. Skepers: "Let's face it. This is a mythological story, and whatever happened way back in pre-history, that might have been the seed of the myth, is lost to us." Now you need to face the reality about myth: they are often based upon truth. I think there is alost no dfference i what I am saying and your statmemt: "...and whatever happened way back in pre-history, that might have been the seed of the myth, is lost to us." is that I stick on a probability argummt that soe Hebrews were iEgypt at sme t,oe, nothing e. You aresso hyterical about the Buble you can'taccepttheinocous posiotoon

. the thing you have never answered, why is the sojourn i Egypt so foundational to thwe Hews? why do

The True Religion of The Bible

Dr. Francesca Stavrakopoulou is billed as having peeled back the the mythological "biases" of the Bible to expose the "likely archeological truth behind the text."[1]  This euphemism "bias" is their term for lie. Since she doesn't believe in God (her own admission) she assumes the roots of biblical history are merely like all other ancient world mythology. In other words that's all the bible is, just another set of myths illuminating the misconceptions of ignorant and primative people. Her method does revolve around the assumption that since there is no God the truth behind the bible must be the same as that of any culture and ut's mythology..Now her work is extremely interesting to listen to. It  is very popular.It also gives great comfort to atheists. It has the efect of saying"ah ha just what I always suspect about the Bible."=

I have no doubt that the people who wrote the bible lived in the same mythological universe as the Ugaretic or Canaanite or any other anciet world people. Yet she overlooks the fact that the OT is offered as an alternative to pagan mythology. Despite the cultural background of the Bible, God,rather than erase the Pagan milue, speaks through it. The voice of God resounds above the pagan historical epoch and cuts a clear path from the shadows and types to Jesus and the empty tomb.

Let's look at a couple of examples: Genesis 1:6-8,  it states: "And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. God called the vault 'sky.' And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day."[2] He is not talking about dividing oceans from contenants on earth. He's talking about waters above the earth.For the ancient world the fermament was a vast dome that streached over earth and was behind the sky.It had doors in it and through those doors angels shoveled water which was rain, or snow. That's the way the authors of Genesis saw the world. In Canaanite mythology the battle between Baal and Yom is referenced.God did not instruct mankind in the nature of the universe,so without changing their understanding he just spoke his will anyway.

Ugaritic mythological tablets describe the activities of the main gods and goddesses of the Canaanite pantheon. Although there existed no single state theology, the major gods reflect local geographical concerns about the fertility of the earth and the importance of water as well as relationships to the sky and the underworld. The universe was believed to be ruled in tandem by the older god El and a main warrior-god, Baal, surrounded by a council of deities and a lower level of attendant gods. The divine council included the older generation of the god El and his wife Athirat, known in the Bible as Asherah[3],

El was a Cannanite God his cult pre dates ancient Israel. That  does not mean that the ancient Israelites thought they worshiped that same El, nor does it mean that the El mythos is the basis of Israelite worship. They used the name El because it was like our term "God," it can be used by any number of cultic practitioners. If God is real they must have applied that name to him because it is a general term much like our term God.

"While the cosmologies of other ancient societies share much in common with biblical cosmology (the ordering of chaotic waters, rival serpents, judgment of humanity by flood), key differences surround the nature of the creator. For instance, the Egyptian creator, Atum, is not an uncreated, eternally preexistent being (like Yahweh). Atum created himself from the chaotic waters. Atum is the first self-caused cause, which is a form of pantheism."[4] The common cultural background was neither misunderstood by proto Israel nor was it something they fled

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"No doubt there is a common cultural heritage behind the first chapter of Genesis. But this legacy or common cultural baggage wasn't "misunderstood" by the author of Genesis 1. It was "reinterpreted", reconfigured in an enduring, perpetual process of cultural assimilation and differentiation, the very lifeblood of religious exegesis. Some people call this the 'invention of tradition'. I prefer to see it as traditional inventiveness.[5]

Here are three examples of God speaking to authors of the OT that are not derived from pagan mythos.

Genesis 12:1-7

12 The Lord had said to Abram, “Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you.

2 “I will make you into a great nation,     and I will bless you; I will make your name great,     and you will be a blessing.[a] 3 I will bless those who bless you,     and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth     will be blessed through you.”[b] 1 Kings 19:11-14

Then a great and powerful wind tore the mountains apart and shattered the rocks before the Lord, but the Lord was not in the wind. After the wind there was an earthquake, but the Lord was not in the earthquake. 12 After the earthquake came a fire, but the Lord was not in the fire. And after the fire came a gentle whisper. 13 When Elijah heard it, he pulled his cloak over his face and went out and stood at the mouth of the cave.

Then a voice said to him, “What are you doing here, Elijah?”

  This passage tells us God does not speak through fireworks and big events but to the heart. That is not derived from myth, There is no myth of God speaking to the heart and there are no prophets in mythology.

jer 20; 7-9

7You deceived[a] me, Lord, and I was deceived[b];     you overpowered me and prevailed. I am ridiculed all day long;     everyone mocks me. 8 Whenever I speak, I cry out     proclaiming violence and destruction. So the word of the Lord has brought me

    insult and reproach all day long. 9 But if I say, “I will not mention his word     or speak anymore in his name,” his word is in my heart like a fire,     a fire shut up in my bones. I am weary of holding it in;     indeed, I cannot.

This is really anti-mythological because it records the psychological feelings of the first person on the purpose who must speak the word of God. It's a psychological experience he can't shut up. There is nothing like that in mythology, This totally authentic historical rendering of ancinet's Israelite relationship with God on a personal level.

Notes

[1] Dr. Francesca Stavrakopoulou, "The REAL Israelite Religion: Interview with Dr. Francesca Stavrakopoulou" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-nM3-QE2V4&t=240s Dr. Stavrakopoulou, professor of Hebrew Bible and Ancient Religion at Exeter University, and star of the BBC's "Bible's Buried Secrets", Digital Hammurabim 2021..

[2]NIV.

[3] Ira Spar, "The Gods and Godesses of Canaan," Heilbrunn Timeline of Art History, the Met april 2009 https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/cana/hd_cana.ht.

m [4]The Buble Project,"Does the Bible Borrow From Other Creation Stories?" Ancient Cosmology Episode 2m May 24, 2021 https://bibleproject.com/podcast/does-bible-borrow-other-creation-stories/.

[5] Ibid.

Don't be fooled by Trump's Lies

God did not want Israel to have a king because God ran things. But Israel wanted a king so God gave them a kigm the kings of Israel were terrible. Here is a fine summary of this segment of the Bible.[1] We see this same thing today in the evil Trump. Every time I see people hoodwinked by histories asserting he has a divine calling and he's helping christianity I think here is a deluded person who has not read the bible. We see the same thing in Trump's election as the setting up of Saul as King. God allowed the King Even though he was a disaster. ;listen to that guy's summary lt's a real good summary. Trim[ sahs I am the only one who can fix it." Obviously thatis bull shit, Trump has solved nothing, he created the mess at the border. He uses it as his major issue. but he created it too, The flow of illegal migration had declined a trickle and Trump got it going by talking about closing the border.[2] See my essay "Trump's war on breathing"[3] hid quashing of environmental regs costs thousands of lives in air pollution. Trump put up a big thing about supporting the coal industry he called it clean coal.That is the most vociferous of fossil fuel pollutants, It's too expensive to scrib the coal and it's the number one killer in air pollution.   When Trump was President he used Department to justice to cover up his election losses and tried to ignore the outcome.[4] He has no understanding of fairness nor does he accept democracy as a valule.NPR:"Senate report details Trump's efforts to use DOJ to overturn election results"

An interim report from the Senate Judiciary Committee provides the most detailed look yet at former President Donald Trump's attempts to enlist the Justice Department in his efforts to overturn the results of the 2020 election. The report from the panel's Democratic majority documents the chaotic final weeks of Trump's presidency following his loss to Joe Biden, and how Trump tried to force Justice Department officials to help him keep his grip on power. Department leaders ultimately resisted Trump's pressure, but it took threats of mass resignations across the department to get him to back down. A key moment that emerges in the report is a Jan. 3 meeting in the Oval Office between Trump and senior Justice Department leaders, including then-acting Attorney General Jeffrey Rosen and his top deputy, Richard Donoghue.

Trump continues to lie, says 'real insurrection' happened when he lost the election POLITICS. Trump continues to lie, says 'real insurrection' happened when he lost election Rosen told the committee that Trump opened the three-hour meeting by saying: "One thing we know is you, Rosen, aren't going to do anything to overturn the election."   He is essentually saying forget the will of the people, make me king. He wants to be dicktator. Hw is still in full control of the repubs, Dutch tight control the got no votes to remove him from office. A vote for the repubs is a vote for Trump. Trumpies are always saying he had doe so much for Christianity when he had done nothing,Nonefthen has ever told me what he's done. Don't hoodwinked by this lying bag of hot air. He's done nothing to help anyone. He is a criminal. notes [1] Spoken Gospel, Pod cast, 1 Sam 8=12 "Israel demands a King," not date Bible study, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jil42Tx7C4 [2]ALAN BERSIN, NATE BRUGGEMAN and BEN ROHRBAUGHm Politico Magazube, "Yes there is a criss on the boarder anditis Trump;s Fault" April 05, 2019, https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/04/05/border-crisis-donald-trump-226573/ [3] Joseph Hinman, "Trump's war on breathing," Metacrcok's blog,October 06, 2024 https://metacrock.blogspot.com/2024/10/trumps-war-on-breathing.html [4] Joseph Hinman, "Trump Used DOJ to overtrun election results." Metacrock's blog, October 13, 2024 https://metacrock.blogspot.com/2024/10/trump-used-doj-to-overturn-election.html