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Sunday, September 15, 2024

Jeff Lowder fine tuning bait and switch



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Jeff Lowder at Secular Outpost, argues against William Lane Craig's fine tuning argument. His objective is to show that even if the argument is valid it doesn't establish probability for God.

Lowdwer's syllogism of the argument:
1. The life-permitting nature of the universe’s initial conditions is either the result of chance, necessity or design. (Premise)
2. It is not the result of chance or necessity. (Premise)
3. Therefore, it is the result of design. (From 1 and 2)

This argument is clearly valid, i.e., the conclusion follows from the premises. We want to know the probability of (3). The probability of (3) will depend upon the probability of (2). If we have a very weak degree of belief that (2) is true, say we think Pr(2)=0.25, then, by itself, this argument only warrants the belief Pr(3)=0.25. N.B. I’m not claiming that (2) has an exact numerical probability equal to 0.25; that value is simply an example to illustrate the point.
Excluding it as a result of chance means showing the improbability of a given variable. For example hitting the target levels necessary for large open bodies of water on a planet. If that is extremely improbable then it's less likely that it "just happened" as the result of chance. The very fact of target levels and the extreme improbability of hitting them all argues against necessity. The universe did not have to turn out as it did. as Paul Davies Tells us:

Paul Davies:
"You might be tempted to suppose that any old rag-bag of laws would produce a complex universe of some sort, with attendant inhabitants convinced of their own specialness. Not so. It turns out that randomly selected laws lead almost inevitably either to unrelieved chaos or boring and uneventful simplicity. Our own universe is poised exquisitely between these unpalatable alternatives, offering a potent mix of freedom and discipline, a sort of restrained creativity. The laws do not tie down physical systems so rigidly that they can accomplish little, but neither are they a recipe for cosmic anarchy. Instead, they encourage matter and energy to develop along pathways of evolution that lead to novel variety-what Freeman Dyson has called the principle of maximum diversity: that in some sense we live in the most interesting possible universe."

"Some scientists have tried to argue that if only we knew enough about the laws of physics, if we were to discover a final theory that united all the fundamental forces and particles of nature into a single mathematical scheme, then we would find that this superlaw, or theory of everything, would describe the only logically consistent world. In other words, the nature of the physical world would be entirely a consequence of logical and mathematical necessity. There would be no choice about it. I think this is demonstrably wrong. There is not a shred of evidence that the universe is logically necessary. Indeed, as a theoretical physicist I find it rather easy to imagine alternative universes that are logically consistent, and therefore equal contenders for reality." [2]
We can eliminate necessity and even Andre Linde himself tells us the probabilities are overwhelmingly against life, meaning it is most unlikely that the universe's life bearing aspect would come about randomly.[3] That means premise two checks out and thus the argument is valid. But I think Lowder is attacking the soundness by brining arguing that the fine turning argument doesn't include all relevant material, that will change the probability factors.

At this point he's going to pull an interesting bait and switch. He's going to transpose fine tuning into design argument so he can argue the counter design argument. But first he brings up the idea that FT dies not reflect all the data:
Second, such arguments fail to embody all of the relevant, available evidence. .... It may well be the case that, by itself, the life-permitting nature of the universe’s initial conditions does make it more probable than not that the universe is designed. But that doesn’t entail that, all things considered, the total available, relevant evidence makes it more probable than not that the universe is designed. In order to defend that claim, you have to look at all of the evidence, including the evidence of evolution, biological role of pain and pleasure, nonresistant nonbelief, etc. And once you do that, it’s far from obvious that the total evidence favors theism, much less Christian theism.
What he's calling "relevant data is anti-design data, FT is a from of design but does it have the same implications such that anti-design evidence would  count against it? Most of us know that evolution is not counter evidence to God. God can use evolution so how is that counter? There is the extinction aspect. The cruelty of nature. He fleshes some of it out thusly:
We also know that so much of our universe is hostile to life due to things such as containing vast amounts of empty space, temperatures near absolute zero, cosmic radiation, and so forth. Given that our universe is life-permitting, the fact that so much of it is hostile to life is much more probable on no-design than on design. So once all of the evidence about cosmic life-permitting conditions has been fully stated, however, it’s far from obvious that facts about cosmic “fine-tuning” favor design over non-design.
That only matters because he's brining in the conventional design arguments or bait and witch. In the conventional design argument the argument turns u[on things looking designed fitting together and seeming like the result of a plan. That's why empty space life threatening aspects are taken as counter design evidence they don't paper life so they are not part of a plan. All he's really doing there is to turn the conditions that make life improbable (counts for FT) into evidence for unplanned universe. That's because he switched arguments. In FT the only appearance of planning is so many totally improbable things working out. All that empty space bad water and so on is actually pro design if the deign is FT. In other words with FT the only aspects of design are where the target levels are hit and how overwhelming  the odds against hitting them. None of his counter design stuff really matters.
 
 
 
Lowder also said:

on the basis of Purdue University philosopher Paul Draper’s work, Craig’s appeal to cosmic fine-tuning is a textbook example of the fallacy of understated evidence. Let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that the life-permitting conditions of our universe are more likely on design than on no-design. That fact–if it is a fact–hardly exhausts what we know about the habitability of our universe. [4]
 
That's just a fancy way of reiterating that one must include all the material so I've already dealt with it.
 
 
 
 


 see my FT argument on Religious a priori 




[1] Jeffery Jay Lowder, "WLC Denies That Anyone Has Ever Died a Sincere Seeker Without Finding God" Secular Out Post, January 2, 2016 (blog URL)
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/secularoutpost/2016/01/02/wlc-denies-that-anyone-has-ever-died-a-sincere-seeker-without-finding-god/  Accessed 1/10/16
all quotations from Lowder will be from this source.

[2] Paul Davies  "Physics and The Mind of G: The Tempelton Prize Address,"First Things, August 5 (1995) On line URL:
http://www.firstthings.com/article/1995/08/003-physics-and-the-mind-of-god-the-templeton-prize-address-24  accessed 1/20/16

[3] Andre Linde,"The Self  Reproducing Inflationary Universe, Scientifi9c American Nov 19994, 48-55

Now Linde is confident that the new inflationary theires will explain all of this, and indeed states that their purpose is to revolve the ambiguity with which cosmologists are forced to cope. His co-author in inflationary theory. Physicist Paul Steinhardt, had doubts about it as early as his first paper on the subject (1982). He admits that the point of the theory was to eliminate fine tuning (a major God argument), but the theory only works if one fine tunes the constants that control the inflationary period.

John Horgan, “Physicist slams Cosmic Theory he Helped Conceive,” Scientific American Blogs, December 1, 2014. on line, URL http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/physicist-slams-cosmic-theory-he-helped-conceive/ accessed 10/5/15. Horgan interviews Steinhardt.
“The whole point of inflation was to get rid of fine-tuning – to explain features of the original big bang model that must be fine-tuned to match observations. The fact that we had to introduce one fine-tuning to remove another was worrisome. This problem has never been resolved."
[4] Fallacy of understated evidence

(Taken from Secular Outpost):

INTRODUCTION: "Paul Draper has usefully identified a fallacy of inductive reasoning he calls the 'fallacy of understated evidence.' According to Draper, in the context of arguments for theism and against naturalism, proponents of a theistic argument are guilty of this fallacy if they 'successfully identify some general fact F about a topic X that is antecedently more likely on theism than on naturalism, but ignore other more specific facts about X, facts that, given F, are more likely on naturalism than on theism.'[1]

 

37 comments:

  1. Anonymous12:22 AM

    The problem with the fine-tuning argument is that it fails to address the probability of design.

    What we really should be doing here is determining which is more likely, chance or design. ID advocates have carefully crafted the argument so their pet hypothesis is the default, but science does not work like that. The default is "we do not know".

    I expect ID advocates to complain that the probability of design cannot be reasonably estimated, but the response to that is - "Tough". If you cannot get a reasonable estimate of the design hypothesis, it has already failed. Get a better argument.

    Pix

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  2. Px very cleaver the way you moved the discussion to an issue I did not write about. I guess you could not answer my real argument. Why should we be figuring out design? I think the reason not to is highlighted by the argument you did make Design arguments are too indeterminate.

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  3. For any probability-based argument to be successful, you have to know what the different possibilities are, and you have to have some idea of the relative probability of each of those possibilities. I have seen many "calculations" of these probabilities, but every one of them is nothing more than conjecture, because nobody knows. To start with, we don't even know what the possibilities are. Could it be that there are an infinite number of universes, each with some non-zero probability of producing life? If so, then overall, the existence of life is essentially assured. And I know you don't want to believe this, but physics is leaning more and more to the realization that there really is a multiverse. And if that's true, we just happen to inhabit one of them. The actual probability is irrelevant if you have an infinite number of chances for it to attain.

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  4. Just because you can't guarantee a number doesn't mean life bearing unvse is likely. It doesn't mean it was easy to arrive at. However you draw up the passivity's life is always big improbability.

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  5. V. Incredulous logic of Multiverse begs question

    Plantinga puts it as follows: "Well, perhaps all this is logically possible (and then again perhaps not). As a response to a probabilistic argument, however, it's pretty anemic. How would this kind of reply play in Tombstone, or Dodge City? "Waal, shore, Tex, I know it's a leetle mite suspicious that every time I deal I git four aces and a wild card, but have you considered the following? Possibly there is an infinite succession of universes, so that for any possible distribution of possible poker hands, there is a universe in which that possibility is realized; we just happen to find ourselves in one where someone like me always deals himself only aces and wild cards without ever cheating. So put up that shootin' arn and set down 'n shet yore yap, ya dumb galoot."[8]

    VI. Violation of Occam's Razor

    The multiverse is a desperate catch-all explanation that could explain away any evidence for anything by simply inflating the probabilistic resources to infinity, and it is also the most flagrant violation of Occam's razor ever. Occam really said "do not multiply entities beyond necessity," yet the Multiversers are doing just that merely for the purpose of answering this argument.

    I wrote a whole blog piece on this one, Metacrock's Blog: Occam's Razor shaves multi-verse.[9]

    :what this really means is that FT should have presumption as long as no empirical evidence for MV.

    ReplyDelete
  6. see my arguments against infante string of universes aka multiverse: https://religiousapriori.blogspot.com/2015/10/fine-tuning-part-2-answers-to-multiverse.html

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  7. those foot notes 8 and 9: 8] Alvin Plantinga, "Darwin, Mind, and Meaning", May/June 1996 issue of Books and Culture

    [9] Joseph Hinman, "Occam's Razor Shaves the Multiverse," Metacorck's Blog. (June 12, 2013) http://metacrock.blogspot.com/2013/06/occams-razor-shaves-multiverse.html
    (accessed Jine 8.2019)

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  8. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  9. Anonymous10:57 AM

    Joe: Px very cleaver the way you moved the discussion to an issue I did not write about.

    The point is that you should have.

    Those who use the fine-tuning argument to argue for God are guilty of bad logic. They deliberately fail to write about the issue of the probability of God (or design, call it what you will).

    Joe: I guess you could not answer my real argument.

    I pointed out it isd flawed. That is enough.

    Pix

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  10. Anonymous12:56 PM

    Keep in mind that I nearly always refute your arguments.

    Pix

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  11. this is powerfully wrong: "Those who use the fine-tuning argument to argue for God are guilty of bad logic. They deliberately fail to write about the issue of the probability of God (or design, call it what you will)." I think what you are saying is that God is not probable because we don't believe in hm. The fact that there has to be a final caueit reason to believe in God. You can't base the probability of God on not seeing him on the street every day. We don't see dark matter the street but science manages to believe in it. Same with Nuitrinos.

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  12. Keep in mind that I nearly always refute your arguments.

    Pix Not successfully.

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  13. I said you don't want to believe it and I was right. You are desperate for excuses to deny it.

    Re: your article

    I. Have to know hit rate for life bearing universes
    - This is actually about planets within our own universe. Irrelevant to multiverse.

    II.We can never know if other universes exist or not.
    - We can have evidence that indicates other universes.

    III. Multiverse Requires Fine Tuning
    - You got this wrong. Even if it's true, the "fine tuning" in the inflation model applies to a single universe.

    IV. Multivrese is Inverse of Gambler's fallacy
    - No it isn't. If P is the probability of having life in a universe, and Q is the probability of having life somewhere in N universes, then Q = 1-(1-P)^N. Even if P is tiny, Q approaches 1 as N approaches infinity. And this is my argument.

    V. Incredulous logic of Multiverse begs question
    - Incredulous??? "God did it."

    VI. Violation of Occam's Razor
    - What's more complex: nature alone, or nature + God? God violates Occam's Razor.

    VII. Multiverse is Arbitrary necessity
    - Multiverse is consistent with physics. God is an arbitrary necessity.

    VIII. Rules Change
    - That's false. It isn't the rules, but the parameters that change.

    IX Inflationary Model Not Parsimonious, not simple, explanatory or predictive.
    - So says some religionist. Most scientists don't agree.

    X. Multiverse proves existence of God!
    - Not a valid argument. (Even if Plantinga thinks it is.)

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  14. I was in the debate with an atheist who created God and I'm saying like if you ask the old atheist David Hume what caused the university would say was not created but merely necessary but why can't the universe be necessary well the universe had a beginning according to the Big bang model so the universe can't be necessary so the argument has shifted to well he's a necessary being sound logically like a married bachelor it very bachelor is not sound because it's contradictory because you can't be a married man and be a bachelor at the same time so is a quasi maximally great being possible if not I'm actually a great being a sound but if it was I'm actually being in exist they're actually great being can't be maximally great

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    Replies
    1. I don't realy understad your argument, I will argue the universe id contingent and God is necessary

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  15. Occam says don't multiply entities beyond necessity. The universe can't be necessary in the sense of being non contingent since it has parts and is not eternal.

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  16. "That too bit obviously applies to MV."
    - Read your own article. The argument says: "The new research puts the estimate at 22% of stars that have earth=like planets. ..." Is isn't about a multiverse.

    "[We can have evidence that indicates other universes.] theoretically but just likely we will never know."
    - I'm talking about real observed evidence. Including from the JWST.

    "I di not getit wromg the Horgan article saaysit quite clearly"
    - Horgan is a religionist - not a scientist. He doesn't know what he's talking about.

    "A physicist made that argument you have not disproven it."
    - I'm not trying to disprove anything. I'm telling you what the mathematics of probability says. You can't dispute that.

    "God is the most likely exploitation so God did do it"
    - Only if you place faith above reality.

    "God can't be an aribitrary necessity becaue he's notcotimgemt AN is a contigency that is put in the place of a necessity."
    - This is based on the presumption of your religious metaphysical view. Science doesn't make that presumption.

    "You are ignoring the meaning of the argument"
    - I don't think so.

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  17. Anonymous4:13 PM

    Joe, you were, once again, shown to be wrong. You have been fully proven wrong and discredited.

    Pix

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  18. Joe, you were, once again, shown to be wrong. You have been fully proven wrong and discredited.
    when others said you were stupid, I said you were smart, when they said you just wanted to mock me I said you are a friend. You say I'm discredited, so I was wrong, you are not a friend, let;s see if the intelligence proves to be BS too?.

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  19. That too bit obviously applies to MV."
    - Read your own article. The argument says: "The new research puts the estimate at 22% of stars that have earth=like planets. ..." Is isn't about a multiverse.

    I know where the 22% comes from in terms of how I have used it but Now I say it can be applied to the MV. It's an analogy, The answer 22% is just being earth like does not mean life bearing, they could have 22% of planets looking like earth and be too dry or too hot to have life

    "[We can have evidence that indicates other universes.] theoretically but just likely we will never know."
    - I'm talking about real observed evidence. Including from the JWST....
    - Horgan is a religionist - not a scientist. He doesn't know what he's talking about.
    he's not religious He's a reporter he is quotimg a major scientist.

    "A physicist made that argument you have not disproven it."
    - I'm not trying to disprove anything. I'm telling you what the mathematics of probability says. You can't dispute that.
    sorry professor but your understandg cmalwa7ys be imquestion. Yousaidit thyat doesn't prove it. I don't understood the argument

    "God is the most likely exploitation so God did do it"
    - Only if you place faith above reality.

    "God can't be an aribitrary necessity becaue he's notcotimgemt AN is a contigency that is put in the place of a necessity."
    - This is based on the presumption of your religious metaphysical view. Science doesn't make that presumption.
    But you o, you redoomg sciece you are doimg iodeology nothingknscience dis-provesGod. The thimgs you are quotimgyou readetaphysical assumptions into.

    "You are ignoring the meaning of the argument"
    - I don't think so.Of course you don;t your ideology doesn't let you

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  20. Anonymous12:01 AM

    Joe, ignore (or delete) any comments signed as though from Pix if they contain no argument - that is not me.

    Joe: this is powerfully wrong: "Those who use the fine-tuning argument to argue for God are guilty of bad logic. They deliberately fail to write about the issue of the probability of God (or design, call it what you will)." I think what you are saying is that God is not probable because we don't believe in hm. The fact that there has to be a final caueit reason to believe in God. You can't base the probability of God on not seeing him on the street every day. We don't see dark matter the street but science manages to believe in it. Same with Nuitrinos.

    What I am saying is that we need to estimate the probability of the design hypothesis if we are comparing it to the chance hypothesis.

    If the probability of the chance hypothesis is exceedingly low, but it is still much higher than the design hypothesis, then the chance hypothesis is the one more likely to be true.

    We have no easy way to estimate the probability of the design hypothesis, but that does not mean we can assume it is 100% or even 50%.

    Consider:

    P1: Either A is true, or my pet theory B is true
    P2: A is very unlikely
    C: Therefore my pet theory B is probably true

    Let us suppose a fair argument can be made for P1 and P2 - we have reason to believe both are probably, but not definitely, true - is C a reasonable conclusion? I think not.

    Pix

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  21. Px: Those who use the fine-tuning argument to argue for God are guilty of bad logic. They deliberately fail to write about the issue of the probability of God (or design, call it what you will).\\
    ta
    By definition the FTA is bout the probability of God as creator and protective force for life. But how can you discuss the probability of the ground of being. `100%===ok now PS explain to me what has been disproven?

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  22. Hey Skep so,ethingI forgot to point out Horgon is not important I'm quoting him but his interview: Horgan interviews Steinhardt.
    “The whole point of inflation was to get rid of fine-tuning – to explain features of the original big bang model that must be fine-tuned to match observations. The fact that we had to introduce one fine-tuning to remove another was worrisome. This problem has never been resolved."

    ReplyDelete
  23. "I say it can be applied to the MV. It's an analogy"
    - OK. Your argument fails. We're talking about probability. (That IS part of your argument.) If 22% of stars have planets in the habitable zone, then there are many trillions of stars with planets that could bear life. Now, let's say that the probability of those planets actually having life is one in a trillion. That means there is a high probability that some of them do have life. Now extend this argument to a multiverse with an infinite number of universes. The probability becomes a certainty. This certainly doesn't help your argument.

    "he's not religious He's a reporter he is quotimg a major scientist."
    - He is religious. Horgan has been around a long time, and he seeks our pro-religious "science" sources while avoiding the vast majority of legitimate scientists, because they don't tell him what he wants to hear.

    "sorry professor but your understandg cmalwa7ys be imquestion. Yousaidit thyat doesn't prove it. I don't understood the argument"
    - It's probability. I know you don't understand it, but I don't have to prove the math to you.

    "But you o, you redoomg sciece you are doimg iodeology nothingknscience dis-provesGod. The thimgs you are quotimgyou readetaphysical assumptions into."
    - Wrong. If you want to eliminate ideology from the argument, then the first thing you should do is eliminate your own religious presumptions and start from a blank slate.

    "Horgan interviews Steinhardt. “The whole point of inflation was to get rid of fine-tuning...""
    - Any so-called scientist who tells you that the universe is fine-tuned is presenting a religious view. As I said, that's exactly what Horgan is looking for.

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  24. "I say it can be applied to the MV. It's an analogy"
    - OK. Your argument fails. We're talking about probability. (That IS part of your argument.) If 22% of stars have planets in the habitable zone, then there are many trillions of stars with planets that could bear life. Now, let's say that the probability of those planets actually having life is one in a trillion. That means there is a high probability that some of them do have life. Now extend this argument to a multiverse with an infinite number of universes. The probability becomes a certainty. This certainly doesn't help your argument.

    That didthesource not say 22% have life nor did it say the lif zone, it said "earth like planetes." Earth-like does not mean necessarily havelife. theycouldoolk likeearth in dath valley.A quote from the article: "The temperature of the planet is important, of course, and depends on how much light the planets gets from its star. As a range, they looked for planets that received no more than four times the light the Earth receives from the Sun, and no less than 0.25 times as much. That should bracket the warm and cool edges of the “habitable zone”, where water can exist. This range may in fact be much broader; a planet can be much farther from its star and still have liquid water (see Enceladus as an example), but they wanted to be conservative."Phil Plait "The sky may be filled with Earth like Planets,"Slate, nov 4 2013 on line copy:http://www.slate.com/blogs/batad_astronomy/2013/11/04/earth_like_exoplanets_planets_like_ours_may_be_very_common.htmlf
    Moreover if a couple of planates havelkfe that does not beat the FTA. Life is still improbable.


    "he's not religious He's a reporter he is quotimg a major scientist."
    - He is religious. Horgan has been around a long time, and he seeks our pro-religious "science" sources while avoiding the vast majority of legitimate scientists, because they don't tell him what he wants to hear.

    "sorry professor but your understandg cmalwa7ys be imquestion. Yousaidit thyat doesn't prove it. I don't understood the argument"
    - It's probability. I know you don't understand it, but I don't have to prove the math to you.

    "But you o, you redoomg sciece you are doimg iodeology nothingknscience dis-provesGod. The thimgs you are quotimgyou readetaphysical assumptions into."
    - Wrong. If you want to eliminate ideology from the argument, then the first thing you should do is eliminate your own religious presumptions and start from a blank slate.

    sll ideas are ideologica tje proble, is when you think you havemo ideology then it's clear you are braiwash,kf you are ideologozed bit areaware of you a stopcloser to over comomg it.

    "Horgan interviews Steinhardt. “The whole point of inflation was to get rid of fine-tuning...""
    - Any so-called scientist who tells you that the universe is fine-tuned is presenting a religious view. As I said, that's exactly what Horgan is looking for.
    8:29 AM You are ideology you just Decie this great physicists is wrong because he disagrees with you. as it turns out you don't understand the issue, he is not religious that is based entirely upon I quote and he disagrees with you he said nothing religious. he said why yse one fine tuning to get rid of another? that does not mean he supports FTA for God

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  25. ps that source does say habitable zone but earth like does not ,mean definitely has life.

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  26. "That didthesource not say 22% have life nor did it say the lif zone, it said "earth like planetes." Earth-like does not mean necessarily havelife."
    - You didn't listen to what I said. I said IF ONE IN A TRILLION OF THEM HAS LIFE, then that means there is life on numerous planets.

    "sll ideas are ideologica tje proble, is when you think you havemo ideology then it's clear you are braiwash,kf you are ideologozed bit areaware of you a stopcloser to over comomg it."
    - Obviously, you are oblivious to your own ideological brainwashing.

    "You are ideology you just Decie this great physicists is wrong because he disagrees with you ... he said nothing religious.
    - I'm not saying he's wrong. But if you claim that the universe is fine-tuned, that IS a religious statement. It is saying that someone (ie God) intentionally adjusted the settings to make life possible. I will say that there has been confusion over this issue, because some scientists have spoken about fine-tuning the equations to make them work. But that doesn't imply that the universe itself is fine-tuned. What it really implies is that there may be a need to refine their theories. And I think theists have seized upon statements like that as evidence for their theistic arguments. But it really means they don't understand what the scientist is talking about.

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  27. im-skeptical said...

    "That source did not say 22% have life nor did it say the life zone, it said "earth like planets." Earth-like does not mean necessarily have life."
    - You didn't listen to what I said. I said IF ONE IN A TRILLION OF THEM HAS LIFE, then that means there is life on numerous planets.

    I don't think that in and of itself beats the FTA. That life is beating the odds too so unless life appears common place the same question remains un answered.

    "sll ideas are ideologica tje proble, is when you think you havemo ideology then it's clear you are braiwash,kf you are ideologozed bit areaware of you a stopcloser to over comomg it."
    - Obviously, you are oblivious to your own ideological brainwashing.

    Then how is it i just go through saying we all have it?

    "You are ideology you just Decie this great physicists is wrong because he disagrees with you ... he said nothing religious.
    - I'm not saying he's wrong. But if you claim that the universe is fine-tuned, that IS a religious statement. It is saying that someone (ie God) intentionally adjusted the settings to make life possible.

    No it;s obvious from Stienheart's interview (Horgon) secular scientists use the idea of fine tuning in various ways, they do say it is fine tunned but it upon what they ue it for.

    I will say that there has been confusion over this issue, because some scientists have spoken about fine-tuning the equations to make them work. But that doesn't imply that the universe itself is fine-tuned. What it really implies is that there may be a need to refine their theories. And I think theists have seized upon statements like that as evidence for their theistic arguments. But it really means they don't understand what the scientist is talking about.

    It;s obviously fine tunned for life because life just barely made it with the rigyht conditions to survive. you need permission from the priesthood of knowledge to believe it.

    7:26 PM
    Post a Comment

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  28. "I don't think that in and of itself beats the FTA."
    - It's a probability-based argument. It's the same argument that evolution deniers use. They are wrong, but you can't convince them of that.

    "Then how is it i just go through saying we all have it?"
    - I agree we all have ideologies, and I have told you that. So just pointing that out doesn't help you. The question is whether the ideology pervades your thinking and introduces biases. Religion very often does that. You insist that the religious answer is the only reasonable one, and you refuse to consider alternatives. Part of the scientific process is an effort to reduce or eliminate ideological biases. Yet you are telling me that thinking scientifically is ideological. Maybe, but that's really hypocritical.

    "No it;s obvious from Stienheart's interview (Horgon) secular scientists use the idea of fine tuning in various ways, they do say it is fine tunned but it upon what they ue it for.
    - Any secular scientist (who doesn't believe in God) would not make the claim that God is fiddling with the knobs. That's absurd.

    "It;s obviously fine tunned for life because life just barely made it with the rigyht conditions to survive. you need permission from the priesthood of knowledge to believe it."
    - Maybe when you say "fine-tuned" you really mean that is appears to be, which is exactly what a number of scientists have said. But if we go back to the evolution debate, they say life "appears to be" designed. But it isn't.

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  29. A lot of the fine tuning/design argument references probabilities. We have access to one universe. How can we arrive at any real apprehension of probabilities. What basis do we have for calculating the probability of any of the prevailing conditions?

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  30. im-skeptical said...
    "I don't think that in and of itself beats the FTA."
    - It's a probability-based argument. It's the same argument that evolution deniers use. They are wrong, but you can't convince them of that.
    Yu think Stenehert is an evolution denier. You don't even know who he is do you? He's a major physicist in the Horgon article he says scientists use FT it doesn't have to be a God argument.

    "Then how is it i just go through saying we all have it?"
    - I agree we all have ideologies, and I have told you that. So just pointing that out doesn't help you. The question is whether the ideology pervades your thinking and introduces biases. Religion very often does that. You insist that the religious answer is the only reasonable one, and you refuse to consider alternatives. Part of the scientific process is an effort to reduce or eliminate ideological biases. Yet you are telling me that thinking scientifically is ideological. Maybe, but that's really hypocritical.

    It pervades your thinking a lot more than mine.

    "No it;s obvious from Stienheart's interview (Horgon) secular scientists use the idea of fine tuning in various ways, they do say it is fine tunned but it upon what they ue it for.
    - Any secular scientist (who doesn't believe in God) would not make the claim that God is fiddling with the knobs. That's absurd.

    As I said before ft does not have to be a god argument they don't to see God as the fine Tunner, The mathematician can also be the fie tuner.

    "It;s obviously fine tunned for life because life just barely made it with the rigyht conditions to survive. you need permission from the priesthood of knowledge to believe it."
    - Maybe when you say "fine-tuned" you really mean that is appears to be, which is exactly what a number of scientists have said. But if we go back to the evolution debate, they say life "appears to ft to be" designed. But it isn't. I quote Stinehart again "...use one type of FT to take out another.

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  31. Cuttlebones said...
    A lot of the fine tuning/design argument references probabilities. We have access to one universe. How can we arrive at any real apprehension of probabilities. What basis do we have for calculating the probability of any of the prevailing conditions? I think underscores the silliness of the Multiverse argument sibce we have no idea if we have a multiverse and we probably never will know.

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  32. Scientists confirm fine tuning while trying to eliminate it.

    Now Linde is confident that the new inflationary theories will explain all of this, and indeed states that their purpose is to resolve the ambiguity wth which cosmologists are forced to cope. His co-author in inflationary theory. Physicist Paul Steinhardt, had doubts about it as early as his first paper on the subject (1982). He admits that the point of the theory was to eliminate fine tuning (a major God argument), but the theory only works if one fine tunes the constants that control the inflationary period.

    John Horgan, “Physicist slams Cosmic Theory he Helped Conceive,” Scientific American Blogs, December 1, 2014. on line, URL http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/physicist-slams-cosmic-theory-he-helped-conceive/ accessed 10/5/15. Horgan interviews Steinhardt.
    “The whole point of inflation was to get rid of fine-tuning – to explain features of the original big bang model that must be fine-tuned to match observations. The fact that we had to introduce one fine-tuning to remove another was worrisome. This problem has never been resolved."

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  33. "Yu think Stenehert is an evolution denier. You don't even know who he is do you? He's a major physicist in the Horgon article he says scientists use FT it doesn't have to be a God argument."
    - I don't think he's an evolution denier or that he claims the universe is fine-tuned. That is your claim, based on a misunderstanding of what he said. I explained this to you already. Read my previous comments again. and this time, listen to what I'm telling you.

    "It pervades your thinking a lot more than mine."
    - What pervades my thinking is an effort to look at all the available evidence and base my beliefs on that. What pervades your thinking is God.

    "As I said before ft does not have to be a god argument they don't to see God as the fine Tunner, The mathematician can also be the fie tuner.
    - Physicists fine-tune the equations that describe how the universe works. Religionists insist that God fine-tunes the universe to fit the equations. You conflate those things to make your argument, but it's not a valid argument.

    "I quote Stinehart again "...use one type of FT to take out another. "
    - You just don't get it. He is NOT saying that anybody fine-tunes the universe to allow life.

    "Physicist slams Cosmic Theory he Helped Conceive""
    - Right. It's the theory that needs to be revised. God never had anything to do with it.

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  34. Anonymous4:08 PM

    LOL! You lost the argument again.

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  35. Anonymous12:14 PM

    I roasted you.

    Pix

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  36. Anonymous4:25 PM

    Metacrapper got bested by a better in the field.

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