Monday, July 08, 2024

Answering the counter apologist on contingency argument



This article, by the "counter Apologist" (CA), appears to be an attack upon the form of cosmological argument known as "argument from  contingecy" which would include the modal argument. He does mention this but that's not what it's about.He also gives the principle of sufficient reason a glancing blow but it's not about that either. It's really using the Trinity as an example of various conceptual problems of contingency.[1] This involves necessity and contingency which will designated as "N/c."

He wants to set a ground rule that what is necessary cannot be based merely upon assertion so that contingencies can't be jacked up into necessities.[2] Two examples: God is necessary and God is Trinity thus aspects of God that make God  Triune  must be necessary.God is necessary but that would mean being the same in all possible worlds. However,  the aspects that spell out Trinity are cointingent such as consciousness and number, there must be three members of the godhead by why is three necessary?

This is pretty easy for me to illustrate for theists with an example. If an atheist pointed to the physical universe and our best description of the laws of nature - ie. the relatively short equation describing quantum field theory and then they said “well this is the description of the necessary entity unwriting all of reality”, the theists would object and say “that’s ad hoc!”.But why? Well because it’s not hard to conceive of those equations being slightly different, and the atheist can’t offer any formal, logical derivation showing the necessity of those equations.


All of his arguments are contingent (no pun) upon this point. But here his argument is very mistaken.He assumes we can assign contingency to some aspect like personality based upon our understanding of the thing itself. Personalities as we know them are contingent, yet that is relationship-derived.In other words human personalities are contingent because humans are contingent. Since we live in a world of contingencies any idea we use will be rooted  in that modal operator. We ask how can God have personality when God must be necessary? Not to argue God does have a personality but for the sake of argument I use this concept.

Personalities are contingent when they are human personalities. That does not mean that God could not have a necessary personality, one that can't change in any possible world, not because personalities are themselves necessary but because a personality belonging to God would be necessary since it is an aspect of the divine. By the same token. while God is necessary ontologcally there are divine attributes which are contingent. For example God being my saviour is contingent upon my accepting God's rescue and salvation.But that does not mean God is contingent nor does it make me necessary.That is a conceptual attribute not an ontological one.
Simply put, it’s out of line to draw a neat little circle around the description of what appears to be contingent and then call it necessary.  This doesn’t really provide any explanatory advantage, all it does is arbitrarily call something necessary. My contention is that this is exactly what theists do when they posit god as a necessary being that provides an explanation for all of reality.
This is exactly what we don't do.``...to draw a neat little circle around the description of what appears to be contingent and then call it necessary." Christians base the necessity of divine attribute upon God's eternal nature not upon how things look in themselves.We base it upon its relationship to divine essence.

N/c have a causal dimension to their meaning, a contingent being (a being such that if it exists, it could have not-existed or could cease to exist) exists. This contingent being has a cause of or explanation for its existence. ... Therefore, what causes or explains the existence of this contingent being must include a non-contingent (necessary) being.Jul 13, 2004 Cosmological Argument (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)[3]

 This means that it relies on our experience of the world--beyond the tools of ... that some things are caused to come into existence by other things, and that ... Aquinas supposes that not everything can be contingent in this way, ...[4]

Here is how Aquinas defines N/c

.
A contingent thing is one that either in fact exists, but might not have, or one that does not in fact exist, but might have. For example, Alumni Hall exists, but it might not have (we can imagine that they just never built it); so Alumni Hall is a contingent thing. Unicorns, on the other hand, do not in fact exist, but it seems possible that they might have; so unicorns are contingent things. There are lots of contingent things: you, me, your parents, my parents, etc. In contrast, a necessary thing is one that in fact exists, but is also something that could not have failed to exist. In other words, it is logically impossible that a necessary being could have not existed. Many people think that numbers are necessary things--i.e., that the world could never have been such that numbers did not exist. Of course, relevant to our present discussion, many think that God is similar to numbers in this way--that is, that God could not have failed to exist, and hence, is a necessary being.[5]
Here we see the causal dimension to the idea:
In the Third Way, Aquinas claims that if we look at the world, we will find that there are contingent beings all around us. We realize that not everything is something that must be, for we observe things before they come into existence, and then see them go out of existence. Aquinas supposes that not everything can be contingent in this way, for he thinks that if everything need not have been, then at one time there was nothing. But, he continues, if at one time there was nothing, then there wouldn't be anything now; for things cannot come into  existence by themselves, but must have been brought into existence by something that is already in existence. Thus, it must not be the case that there are only contingent beings. It must be that there is a necessary being, on which the existence of all other contingent beings depend. For Aquinas, this necessary being is God.[6]
Conciousness,to stay with the example, is neither contingent nor necessary in and of itself. It is either one depemdimng upon it's relationship to the devine essence. Gods coscciousness is necessary becausse it is part of somethinng uncreated and eternal. Human consciousness is contingent because it depends for its exstence upon it's relation to creatioon as a product of creation.

CA says:
I’m going to start with a great example from my Christian friends. After all Chrsitians will posit god as a “necessary being” but then also describe god as a trinity. The idea that god is three persons in one being, which frankly sounds incoherent - but they make a large amount of metaphysical assumptions about the nature of being and personhood so as to avoid those logical contradictions....The problem with this is that by all rights a “trinity” appears to be a contingent property, especially once we grant the assumptions necessary to avoid it being contradictory in the first place. After all, why is god only 3 persons and not 2, 4, 5, or any natural number?
When he says "The problem with this is that by all rights a 'trinity' appears to be a contingent property, especially once we grant the assumptions necessary to avoid it being contradictory in the first place" he's making the flip side mistake he acuses Christians of makimg. He bases contingency upon appearance rather than relationship to the divine. As for the number of persons in the Trinity there could be a reason. Even assuming no meaningful reasoon it is not and not a brute fact; God is the only true higher pupose thus can't be a brute fact.

CA takes on an argument by someone called "the Dray Apologist" and that is based upon the Dry person's concept of the Trinity. Thus ideais heeretical from a Christian perspectio e becauseit posotops a Trimmity in which the second person is created: "God is supposed to exist without limit, but then when the second person in the trinity is created the will somehow increases? If god was already supposed to be the maximal being, how could its will increase?" Yet he claims this id a problem for all Christians,


Notes

[1]The Counter Apologist, "Countering the Contingency Argument & Defending Brute Facts," The Counter Apologist blog, (February 14, 2022) https://counterapologist.blogspot.com/2022/02/countering-contingency-argument.html#more

[2]Ibid."First I want to draw some boundaries around what both sides should consider to be “off limits” in terms of how we argue about necessary things. It should be considered improper to draw a neat little circle around an entity and a description of its attributes and then simply say “well this thing is necessary."

[3]Bruce Reichenbach, "Cosmological Argument", The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (Fall 2022 Edition), Edward N. Zalta & Uri Nodelman (eds.), URL = . Jul 13, 2004 Cosmological Argument (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy) https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/cosmological-argument/ Copyright © 2022 by

Bruce Reichenbach Professor Emeritus of Philosophy after teaching philosophy for 43 years at Augsburg reichen@augsburg.eduK

[4]Megan B Wallace, "the Cosmological Argument: Contingent vs. Necessary"(2008) https://www2.oberlin.edu/faculty/mwallace/CosmologicalArg.html

Megan B Wallace Visiting Assistant Professor in the Philosophy Department at Oberlin College. I recently received my PhD in Philosophy at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill.

[5]Ibid. [6]Ibid.br>

32 comments:

im-skeptical said...

"it is logically impossible that a necessary being could have not existed."
- It is logically possible that there is no God. Therefore, God is not a necessary entity.

"if at one time there was nothing, then there wouldn't be anything now; for things cannot come into existence by themselves, but must have been brought into existence by something that is already in existence."
- That is a supposition. It derives from Aquinas' metaphysical views, which aren't necessarily true.

"He bases contingency upon appearance rather than relationship to the divine."
- Oh? What can anyone really know about relationship to the divine? It's all based on what you believe, what you suppose - not what you know.

"Thus ideais heeretical from a Christian perspectio e becauseit posotops a Trimmity in which the second person is created"
- The second person of the trinity - the son - can't be necessary. It is an offspring of God. The existence of the son is obviously contingent upon the existence of the father.

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

im-skeptical said...
"it is logically impossible that a necessary being could have not existed."
- It is logically possible that there is no God. Therefore, God is not a necessary entity.

It is only logically possible if God is impossible. Since God is necessary, if he didn't exist he would have to be impossible. But he can't be contingent. Since there is no reason why God is impossible, we can assume he is necessary..


"if at one time there was nothing, then there wouldn't be anything now; for things cannot come into existence by themselves, but must have been brought into existence by something that is already in existence."

- That is a supposition.

It's logical supposition

It derives from Aquinas' metaphysical views, which aren't necessarily true.

No it derives from empirical observation you have not one single example of something from nothing.

"He bases contingency upon appearance rather than relationship to the divine."


- Oh? What can anyone really know about relationship to the divine? It's all based on what you believe, what you suppose - not what you know.

that doesn't my criticism of his argument, there are two ways we can know God van tell us, and we can use logic.

"Thus idea is he eretical from a Christian perspectio e becauseit posotops a Trimmity in which the second person is created"


- The second person of the trinity - the son - can't be necessary. It is an offspring of God. The existence of the son is obviously contingent upon the existence of the father.
2:20 PM

the second person, the Logos, existed before he incarnated as Jesus. Jesus is part of the Trintiy he the incarnation of the second person, The persona are eternal and necessary.

Anonymous said...

Joe: It is only logically possible if God is impossible. Since God is necessary, if he didn't exist he would have to be impossible. But he can't be contingent. Since there is no reason why God is impossible, we can assume he is necessary..

If God is possible, then he must be necessary
God is not necessary
Therefore God is not possible

Joe: No it derives from empirical observation you have not one single example of something from nothing.

Show me an example of a necessary being.

Joe: the second person, the Logos, existed before he incarnated as Jesus. Jesus is part of the Trintiy he the incarnation of the second person, The persona are eternal and necessary.

So in what sense is one the son and one the father?

Pix

im-skeptical said...

"It is only logically possible if God is impossible. Since God is necessary, if he didn't exist he would have to be impossible. But he can't be contingent. Since there is no reason why God is impossible, we can assume he is necessary."
- That is convoluted logic. You are defining God into existence. You define God as a necessary being. IF God is not a necessary being, then it is logically possible that God exists, and also logically possible that God does not exist. But IF God is a necessary being, then it is logically impossible that God does not exist. The only thing that makes God necessary is your definition. So according to your logic, God exists by definition.

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

Anonymous said...
Joe: It is only logically possible if God is impossible. Since God is necessary, if he didn't exist he would have to be impossible. But he can't be contingent. Since there is no reason why God is impossible, we can assume he is necessary..

If God is possible, then he must be necessary
God is not necessary
Therefore God is not possible

No sorry. God is not possible he;s necessary or impossible. If he does not exist then it must be God cannot exist. its not a maybe.

Joe: No it derives from empirical observation you have not one single example of something from nothing.

Show me an example of a necessary being.


God is the only necessary being.

Joe: the second person, the Logos, existed before he incarnated as Jesus. Jesus is part of the Trintiy he the incarnation of the second person, The persona are eternal and necessary.

So in what sense is one the son and one the father?

Pix

Chruch doctrine says those relationships in the Trinity are eternal I am not so sure. that's the idea anyway. In the Trininty it means the second and third person are subordinate to the father.

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

im-skeptical said...
"It is only logically possible if God is impossible. Since God is necessary, if he didn't exist he would have to be impossible. But he can't be contingent. Since there is no reason why God is impossible, we can assume he is necessary."


- That is convoluted logic.

It's essentially Hartshorne's ontological argument. It's according to modal logic.


You are defining God into existence. You define God as a necessary being.

That is not defining God into existence because it could be tht God is impossible.

IF God is not a necessary being, then it is logically possible that God exists, and also logically possible that God does not exist.

there are choices for modal operators: Necessary, cotangent, or impossible. god can't be contingent because he would not be God, God by definition is necessary if he exists at all. He could fail to exist but only 9f he's impossible.


But IF God is a necessary being, then it is logically impossible that God does not exist.

I pointed thisout above. God could be impossible. Then there would be no God. But there's no maybe God's existence is not merely possible. He's either necessary or impossible


The only thing that makes God necessary is your definition. So according to your logic, God exists by definition.


that defamation is derived logically from the concept of God and what would have to be if such a one exists. For example, if God is eternal he can't be contingent but has to be self sufficient in terms of origin. His existence can't derive from anything outside himself

im-skeptical said...

"It's essentially Hartshorne's ontological argument. It's according to modal logic."
- Modal logic doesn't require that God is necessary. Your definition does.

"That is not defining God into existence because it could be tht God is impossible. "
- It could be that God is not necessary.

"there are choices for modal operators: Necessary, cotangent, or impossible. god can't be contingent because he would not be God, God by definition is necessary if he exists at all. He could fail to exist but only 9f he's impossible."
- This is the fallacy of the excluded middle. Not is also a modal operator, so not necessary, not contingent, and not impossible are valid choices as well. And logically, something could fit all of those latter cases.

"that defamation is derived logically from the concept of God and what would have to be if such a one exists. For example, if God is eternal he can't be contingent but has to be self sufficient in terms of origin. His existence can't derive from anything outside himself
- It is derived from a question-begging concept of God. A reasonable person need not accept your definition.

Daniel said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Joe: No sorry. God is not possible he;s necessary or impossible. If he does not exist then it must be God cannot exist. its not a maybe.

If we do not know, then of course it is maybe!

Joe (later): That is not defining God into existence because it could be tht God is impossible.

Right, it could be. We do not know. Therefore maybe God is possible and maybe God is impossible.

Joe: God is the only necessary being.

That is your starting assumption. And if we assume God is the only necessary being, then it is easy to prove God exists!

Joe: Chruch doctrine says those relationships in the Trinity are eternal I am not so sure. that's the idea anyway. In the Trininty it means the second and third person are subordinate to the father.

I thought Church doctrine is that Jesus is equal to God. See, for example:

https://www.redemptionofhumanity.org/is-jesus-equal-with-god/

Joe: there are choices for modal operators: Necessary, cotangent, or impossible. god can't be contingent because he would not be God, God by definition is necessary if he exists at all. He could fail to exist but only 9f he's impossible.

God is not necessary
By definition he cannot be contingent
Therefore God must be impossible.

Pix

Anonymous said...

Can I ask you to respond to this video it's attacking inspiring philosophies on that empty tomb and a nice Jesus wasn't buried in one it's buying philosophies could you please respond to this video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMufkaxs2Go

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

im-skeptical said...
"It's essentially Hartshorne's ontological argument. It's according to modal logic."


- Modal logic doesn't require that God is necessary. Your definition does.

the concept of God necessitates it since God can't be contingent or he would not be God.

"That is not defining God into existence because it could be tht God is impossible. "


- It could be that God is not necessary.

yes, but only if he is impossible. Even thecocept of Go is thatof necessary being


"there are choices for modal operators: Necessary, cotangent, or impossible. god can't be contingent because he would not be God, God by definition is necessary if he exists at all. He could fail to exist but only if he's impossible."

- This is the fallacy of the excluded middle. Not is also a modal operator, so not necessary, not contingent, and not impossible are valid choices as well. And logically, something could fit all of those latter cases.

no it's the fallacy of excluded middle. For one thing if you say God is contingent you are not choosing a position in the middle of anything. You are simply patriating the concept of God. Asking that one's God concept does not contradict is not violating excluded middle.


"that defamation is derived logically from the concept of God and what would have to be if such a one exists. For example, if God is eternal he can't be contingent but has to be self sufficient in terms of origin. His existence can't derive from anything outside himself.


- It is derived from a question-begging concept of God. A reasonable person need not accept your definition.

You will no fine on single theologian anywhere and no dictionary of theology will ever accept the idea that God could be cotangent or that he doesn't have to be eternal, those are the basici deas about God that grave rise to religion.

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

"The Westminster Shorter Catechism's definition of God is an enumeration of his attributes: "God is a Spirit, infinite, eternal, and unchangeable in his being, wisdom, power, holiness, justice, goodness, and truth."

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

Pix the modal does not mandate that we know if God exists. WE can be ina state ofagnosciti9sm and not know if God exists are not that doesn't disprove the defection of necessary.

That we may be in a state of agnosticism does not undo God's necessary being. WE can fail to know if God is impossible or necessary. we can know he's not contingent.

im-skeptical said...

"the concept of God necessitates it since God can't be contingent or he would not be God."
- That's YOUR concept of God. Your definition. All your logic depends on that definition. It begs the question. Why should I accept that?

"yes, but only if he is impossible. Even thecocept of Go is thatof necessary being"
- It's a strictly religious concept of God. It doesn't allow any other possibility.

"Asking that one's God concept does not contradict is not violating excluded middle. "
- This fallacy "is problematic because it oversimplifies the choice by excluding viable alternatives". - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma
You are excluding the reasonable possibility of logically possible AND not necessary AND not contingent. A brute fact would fall into this category.

"You will no fine on single theologian anywhere and no dictionary of theology will ever accept the idea that God could be cotangent or that he doesn't have to be eternal, those are the basici deas about God that grave rise to religion."
- Of course believers don't accept any logical possibility that they could be wrong. That's what makes them religious.

Anonymous said...

This is slightly different to what I was saying before, as I better realise the flaw in your argument.

Joe: Pix the modal does not mandate that we know if God exists. WE can be ina state ofagnosciti9sm and not know if God exists are not that doesn't disprove the defection of necessary.

That we may be in a state of agnosticism does not undo God's necessary being. WE can fail to know if God is impossible or necessary. we can know he's not contingent.


That is all fine, but the fact is that we do not know; we are in that state of agnosticism, so from our perspective, God may or may not be necessary - or if you prefer God may be necessary or may be impossible.

And that is the problem with your argument; you are slipping between two different concepts of what is possible.

Definition 1: Our limited knowledge; this means that God may exist and he may not; we cannot be sure either way

Definition 2: What is actually possible; for example, in one possible world Trump gets elected, in another Biden get elected.

Your argument relies of slipping from the first to the second. We know that God may exist, as per definition 1. We then slip to definition 2, and say if God may exist as an actual possibility, then, given he is necessary, he must exist.

That is bad logic.

We do not know if God exists. Therefore either God must exist as a necessary being, or God is impossible. but we still do not know which it is!

Pix

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

im-skeptical said...
"the concept of God necessitates it since God can't be contingent or he would not be God."
- That's YOUR concept of God. Your definition. All your logic depends on that definition. It begs the question. Why should I accept that?

I quoted a couple of sources backing it up. you must produce a religious source saying God is not eternal God depends upon some higher power for his existence, it wont do to quote an atheist. You will not find a theologian anywhere saying that/

"yes, but only if he is impossible. Even thecocept of Go is thatof necessary being"
- It's a strictly religious concept of God. It doesn't allow any other possibility.

"Asking that one's God concept does not contradict is not violating excluded middle. "

- This fallacy "is problematic because it oversimplifies the choice by excluding viable alternatives". - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma
You are excluding the reasonable possibility of logically possible AND not necessary AND not contingent. A brute fact would fall into this category.

God cannot be contingent.so says "Charles Hartshorne, look it up. God cannot be contingent by definition.

"You will no fine on single theologian anywhere and no dictionary of theology will ever accept the idea that God could be cotangent or that he doesn't have to be eternal, those are the basici deas about God that grave rise to religion."


- Of course believers don't accept any logical possibility that they could be wrong. That's what makes them religious.

My poit God is defined as eternal necessary being. without that you don't have the concept of God that s most religious people. if you acept that defamation you would have to agree God is real
1:32 PM

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

Anonymous said...
This is slightly different to what I was saying before, as I better realise the flaw in your argument.

Joe: Pix the modal does not mandate that we know if God exists. WE can be ina state ofagnosciti9sm and not know if God exists are not that doesn't disprove the defection of necessary.

That we may be in a state of agnosticism does not undo God's necessary being. WE can fail to know if God is impossible or necessary. we can know he's not contingent.

That is all fine, but the fact is that we do not know; we are in that state of agnosticism, so from our perspective, God may or may not be necessary - or if you prefer God may be necessary or may be impossible.

God us necessary by definition, God cannot be contingent. You show show me a theologian who says he is.

And that is the problem with your argument; you are slipping between two different concepts of what is possible.

No when it pertains to model operators it has a different sense than otherwise.

Definition 1: Our limited knowledge; this means that God may exist and he may not; we cannot be sure either way

Definition 2: What is actually possible; for example, in one possible world Trump gets elected, in another Biden get elected.

we may or maynt know about Go that's a possibility But cannot ever be contingent. If God doesn't exist the has to be impossible.

Your argument relies of slipping from the first to the second. We know that God may exist, as per definition 1. We then slip to definition 2, and say if God may exist as an actual possibility, then, given he is necessary, he must exist.

That is bad logic.

It doesn't slip. it's a matter of weather or not you use the in conjunction with modal operators.

We do not know if God exists. Therefore either God must exist as a necessary being, or God is impossible. but we still do not know which it is!

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

Here is a quote about Hartshorne's view that Gd can't be comtimgent.

"Hartshorne calls this 'Anselm's principle,' or more forcefully, 'Anselm's discovery.' The discovery is that God, as unsurpassable, cannot exist with the possibility of not existing. Put differently, contingency of existence is incompatible with deity."

Charles Hartshorne: Theistic and Anti-Theistic Arguments

Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
https://iep.utm.edu › hart-t-a


"What does it mean when God is contingent?
Leibniz's argument from contingency is one of the most popular cosmological arguments in philosophy of religion. It attempts to prove the existence of a necessary being and infer that this being is God. Alexander Pruss formulates the argument as follows: Every contingent fact has an explanation."

Cosmological argument - Wikipedia

Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Cosmological_argument


"Is God necessary or contingent?
For example, according to Avicenna, God can have no features or relations that are contingent, so his causing of the universe must be necessary."

Proof of the Truthful - Wikipedia

Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Proof_of_the_Truthful

Anonymous said...

Joe: God us necessary by definition, God cannot be contingent. You show show me a theologian who says he is.

I have no problem with that - that is your argument with im-skeptical.

How, what I said is that we do not know if that necessary God exists or not. It may be that a necessary God exists or it may be that God is impossible (if you are starting from the position that God exists then your argument is circular, and can therefore be rejected).

Joe: No when it pertains to model operators it has a different sense than otherwise.

That is as per the second definition. That is fine as long as you stick to that, but I do not think you do.

Joe: we may or maynt know about Go that's a possibility But cannot ever be contingent. If God doesn't exist the has to be impossible.

Fine.

Joe: It doesn't slip. it's a matter of weather or not you use the in conjunction with modal operators.

Okay.

So then we are still in a position that we do not know it either (a) God exists and is necessary; or (b) God does not exist and is impossible.

Pix

im-skeptical said...

"I quoted a couple of sources backing it up. you must produce a religious source saying God is not eternal God depends upon some higher power for his existence, it wont do to quote an atheist. You will not find a theologian anywhere saying that"
- First I can agree with the eternal part and the non-contingent part. It is logical that any eternal thing cannot be contingent. But I can't agree that God being either necessary or impossible are the only logical choices available. That is not valid modal logic. It is your religiously-biased definition of God.

"God cannot be contingent.so says "Charles Hartshorne, look it up. God cannot be contingent by definition."
- I never said God could be contingent. I said he (as well as other logically possible beings) could be non-contingent AND non-necessary. There are other logical possibilities.

"My poit God is defined as eternal necessary being. without that you don't have the concept of God that s most religious people. if you acept that defamation you would have to agree God is real"
- You are only preaching to the choir with that definition. It is defining God into existence, and it is not valid logic. You won't find a thinking atheist anywhere who accepts that.

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

Anonymous said...
Joe: God us necessary by definition, God cannot be contingent. You show show me a theologian who says he is.

PX: I have no problem with that - that is your argument with im-skeptical.

ok


How, what I said is that we do not know if that necessary God exists or not. It may be that a necessary God exists or it may be that God is impossible (if you are starting from the position that God exists then your argument is circular, and can therefore be rejected).

I agree except I think there are ways to know God is real. Ir I should sat ways to be confident about that reality. Depends on how one uses "to know."

Joe: No when it pertains to model operators it has a different sense than otherwise.

That is as per the second definition. That is fine as long as you stick to that, but I do not think you do.

of course I do! cough cough.



Joe: we may or maynt know about Go that's a possibility But cannot ever be contingent. If God doesn't exist the has to be impossible.

Fine.

yipieeeee

Joe: It doesn't slip. it's a matter of weather or not you use the in conjunction with modal operators.

Okay.

So then we are still in a position that we do not know it either (a) God exists and is necessary; or (b) God does not exist and is impossible.


I think the original argument give condolences, it warrants belief, Note I don't say "proves."

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

im-skeptical said...
"I quoted a couple of sources backing it up. you must produce a religious source saying God is not eternal God depends upon some higher power for his existence, it wont do to quote an atheist. You will not find a theologian anywhere saying that"



- First I can agree with the eternal part and the non-contingent part. It is logical that any eternal thing cannot be contingent. But I can't agree that God being either necessary or impossible are the only logical choices available. That is not valid modal logic. It is your religiously-biased definition of God.

That is what the major thinkers in the field say. Plantiga says it and, ,more importantly, Hartshorne says it. Don't underestimate his place in philosophy. He was recognized the world expert on modal logic when he died.

"God cannot be contingent.so says "Charles Hartshorne, look it up. God cannot be contingent by definition."
- I never said God could be contingent. I said he (as well as other logically possible beings) could be non-contingent AND non-necessary. There are other logical possibilities.

"My point God is defined as eternal necessary being. without that you don't have the concept of God that s most religious people. if you accept that definition you would have to agree God is real"


- You are only preaching to the choir with that definition. It is defining God into existence, and it is not valid logic. You won't find a thinking atheist anywhere who accepts that.

im-skeptical said...
"I quoted a couple of sources backing it up. you must produce a religious source saying God is not eternal God depends upon some higher power for his existence, it wont do to quote an atheist. You will not find a theologian anywhere saying that"
- First I can agree with the eternal part and the non-contingent part. It is logical that any eternal thing cannot be contingent. But I can't agree that God being either necessary or impossible are the only logical choices available. That is not valid modal logic. It is your religiously-biased definition of God.

"God cannot be contingent.so says "Charles Hartshorne, look it up. God cannot be contingent by definition."
- I never said God could be contingent. I said he (as well as other logically possible beings) could be non-contingent AND non-necessary. There are other logical possibilities.

"My poit God is defined as eternal necessary being. without that you don't have the concept of God that s most religious people. if you acept that defamation you would have to agree God is real"
- You are only preaching to the choir with that definition. It is defining God into existence, and it is not valid logic. You won't find a thinking atheist anywhere who accepts that.

How can it define God into existence when it says God ail to exist bt only if he's impossible. It is saying that is an open possibility.

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

one humorous anecdote: Once when Hatshorne was ony 90 (he lived to be 105 or something) the rumor spread UT that he died. He lived and still taught at UT (Texas). A crowd gathered outside his home. Professors were making speeches about how great he was. He comes walking up back from his morning walk and says "who died?"

Anonymous said...

Medicrock could I talk to you please I want you to respond to carrier on something on the Gospels like the baptism of Jesus and the criterion of embarrassment can I have your email

im-skeptical said...

"That is what the major thinkers in the field say. Plantiga says it and, ,more importantly, Hartshorne says it. Don't underestimate his place in philosophy. He was recognized the world expert on modal logic when he died."
- I don't care. They use a religious definition of God that assumes necessity. That's called begging the question. If you don't make that assumption, then the logic isn't valid. You need to find an unbiased philosopher who agrees with them. And you're not going to find that.

"How can it define God into existence when it says God ail to exist bt only if he's impossible. It is saying that is an open possibility."
- It is a logically coherent situation that something could be possible and still not exist (if you don't make the question-begging assumption of necessity). I don't know why this is so hard for you to accept. We're talking about what is logically possible, and many things are possible but still don't exist. So if the thing in question is God, why should you reject this as a logical possibility?

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

metacrock@gmail.com

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

Blogger im-skeptical said...
"That is what the major thinkers in the field say. Plantiga says it and, ,more importantly, Hartshorne says it. Don't underestimate his place in philosophy. He was recognized the world expert on modal logic when he died."


- I don't care. They use a religious definition of God that assumes necessity.

God is a religious construct that's why religious people believe you have right to tell we cant believe that, you have to deal with it or admit you can't answer the argument. There is no nonreligious definition of God.


That's called begging the question. If you don't make that assumption, then the logic isn't valid. You need to find an unbiased philosopher who agrees with them. And you're not going to find that.


That is total bullshit a PhD is a PhD. Besides Hartshorne is not a Christian. I don't think he had an affiliation.


"How can it define God into existence when it says God can fail to exist but only if he's impossible. It is saying that is an open possibility."


- It is a logically coherent situation that something could be possible and still not exist (if you don't make the question-begging assumption of necessity).

It's possible that God is impossible bout you have to show a reason why he is.


I don't know why this is so hard for you to accept. We're talking about what is logically possible, and many things are possible but still don't exist. So if the thing in question is God, why should you reject this as a logical possibility?

God cannot be contingent that means he can't be merely possible he must be necessary or impossible. why is that so hard for you? You think it's a trick but it's just logic.

Anonymous said...

Joe: It's possible that God is impossible bout you have to show a reason why he is.

And that is the point of the argument. You get to shift the burden of proof on the atheist. Now they have to show God is impossible, instead of you proving God exists.

In reality, the onus is on you. If you are claiming a necessary God, you have to prove that.

Pix

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

burden of proof? There's no reason why the burden of proof can't shift by having been met. This argument meets that burden at least in terms of warranting belief.

"Proof" is used advisedly because God, like the Laws of physics, can't be seen or proven it can only be warranted as a belief. In this case "rppf" = warranted.

The original argument from contingency warrants belief. The burden switches to the skeptic to show that God is impossible.

Anonymous said...

Joe: burden of proof? There's no reason why the burden of proof can't shift by having been met. This argument meets that burden at least in terms of warranting belief.

No they do not. What evidence do you have of a necessary God?

You cannot claim that a necessary God is possible, and therefore must be necessary, that is just circular.

The argument in the OP only argues that something is necessary; it does not indicate that that has to be God. And it assumes the universe (or its precursor) could not happen spontaneously.

At the end of the day, you argument assumes the God you want to exist.

Pix

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...


Anonymous *(Pix) said...
Joe: burden of proof? There's no reason why the burden of proof can't shift by having been met. This argument meets that burden at least in terms of warranting belief.

No they do not. What evidence do you have of a necessary God?

God is necessary by definition because he can't be contingent ,I told you this. In this case necessary does not mean "has to exist" it means "not contingent." God is self-sufficient and eternal not predicated upon anything or anyone for his existence.



You cannot claim that a necessary God is possible, and therefore must be necessary, that is just circular.


You a4e using necessary in a different sense, I am using it in terms of God's existential nature you are using it in terms of his actual existence.

The argument in the OP only argues that something is necessary; it does not indicate that that has to be God. And it assumes the universe (or its precursor) could not happen spontaneously.

At the end of the day, your argument assumes the God you want to exist.

No tht is totally wrong you are making the mistake I spoke of. You think necessary applies to God's actual existence it only applies to the God concept


ME:
Personalities are contingent when they are human personalities. That does not mean that God could not have a necessary personality, one that can't change in any possible world, not because personalities are themselves necessary but because a personality belonging to God would be necessary since it is an aspect of the divine. By the same token. while God is necessary ontologically there are divine attributes which are contingent. For example, God being my Saviour is contingent upon my accepting God's rescue and salvation. But that does not mean God is contingent nor does it make me necessary. That is a conceptual attribute not an ontological one.

Couter Apologist:
"Simply put, it’s out of line to draw a neat little circle around the description of what appears to be contingent and then call it necessary. This doesn’t really provide any explanatory advantage, all it does is arbitrarily call something necessary. My contention is that this is exactly what theists do when they posit god as a necessary being that provides an explanation for all of reality."

Me:

This is exactly what we don't do.``...to draw a neat little circle around the description of what appears to be contingent and then call it necessary." Christians base the necessity of divine attribute upon God's eternal nature not upon how things look in themselves. We base it upon its relationship to divine essence.

Anonymous said...

Joe: God is necessary by definition because he can't be contingent ,I told you this. In this case necessary does not mean "has to exist" it means "not contingent." God is self-sufficient and eternal not predicated upon anything or anyone for his existence.

None of which addresses the fact that you have no evidence to suppose such a god exists.

Joe: You a4e using necessary in a different sense, I am using it in terms of God's existential nature you are using it in terms of his actual existence.

Right. You have no reson to think your necessary God actually exists.

You necessary God either exists, and necessarily exists. Or is impossible to exist. You offer no reason to prefer the former over the latter.

You cannot simply say it is possible such a God exists, therefore he must exist. Just saying a necessary God exists is saying he does exist and you have no evidence of that.

Pix