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Sunday, June 02, 2024
How Do We Know the Inspired Parts of the Bible?
People on the net, especially skeptics, ask "what parts of the Bible are inspired and what parts are not?" or "how do we know the inwpired part of the bible?" for the ierrantist this is not a problem, it's all inspired. But since I have advertized the fact that I am not an inerrantist this question becomes more important for me.
The problem parts of the Bible are those passages where God commanded Israel to wipe out the enemy and murder everyone, even the infants. To me God would never do that, those passages are not inspired.
There is a passage which seems to say it's all inspired: 2 Timothy 3:16-17: "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness. Of course Second Timony is one of those parts most scholars now feel were not by Paul. Moreover, God could intend the documents to be included becuse they contain a lot of good, despirte the mistaken injunction to kill children.
Fundamentalists look at the Bible in a certain way and atheists look at it in reaction to the fundamentalist way. The basic assumption is made by both that the text of the Bible is, from the "In the Beginning" of Genesis to the "even so come quickly Lord Jesus" of Revelation as words transmitted from God to the mind of the authors. As though Moses sits down, takes pen in hand and a light shines on him and a voice in his head says (in a booming echo like way) "write write write, this is it...."In the beginning...." I don't think it works that way. I am willing to understand that when the prophets say "this is what the Lord says" they may be repeating word for word the exact verbiage God gave them to say, although not necessarily. But for most of the Bible I doubt that it works that way. I think people were just using the ideas that came to them as a result of their religious experiences, and as a result they used those concepts and feelings in the different ways that it occurred to them to use such material. They put their ideas of God into the stories and those who had real experiences really captured the nature of God's grace, and those who did not genuinely experience God failed to capture such things.
The real problem is the model. The model of the fundies says that God is writing a memo. The Bible is the word form "the Big man upstairs" and just like an executive writing a memo. Moses is taking dictation. But that model assumes directly handed down verbiage, it's even called "verbal plenary" meaning "all the verbiage is inspired." That's NOT the model I use. I go by a model that views the Bible as a collection of writings which are based upon human encounters with the divine. People experience God in different ways, usually beyond words; to speak about that they must call up from the deep recesses of their spirits (minds) that intangible part that produces art and literature, and they formulate into words their experiences. That means they have to load the experince into cultural constructs.
A cultural construct is an idea that is suggested by culture, by association with other people in society and the symbols and analogies and metaphors that tacitly speak to us at a level we understand but can't necessarily articulate. In the ancient world life was cheap, people were used to thinking in terms of either wiping out the other guy or being wiped out. The ancient Hebrews magnified their culture, but a romanticized view of themselves and their struggles into narrative form and used that framework to express the wordless sense of the numinous that they experienced through contact with God. The tendency to want to wipe out other people, to destroy totally every trace of their existence and lives, is part of the cultural constructs which act as a lens to give words to the writer's deep and hidden senses of God communicated through wordless sensations on the mystical level. So they build into the narrative a bunch of stuff about wiping these guys and those guys but what we need to understand is the major point being made.
For example, in the bit about the Amalekites, I'm pretty sure the bit about the infants is added in latter. I think we see real evdience in the text that it's been tweaked. But the real point is not wipe out the Amalekites nor is it that it's ok for us to wipe our enemies, the real point is to obey God. Saul didn't obey God and the incident was a down fall for him. Now it doesn't matter that the incident is this failure to wipe out the infants, it could have been anything. They wrote it like that. The real point is do whatever God tells you to do. But that God is not going to tell us to wipe out our enemies and destroy their kids is pretty obvious to most of us. We can defend that description well enough to say "God did not command this." We can even put it up to religious experience. My experiences of God tell me God doesn't want this. But why did the author of that part of the Bible (presumably Samuel) think that God did tell him that? Because he's filtering the experience through his cultural constructs
. Now you might ask "but then how can we learn moral truths? Our moral understanding is not static. Our understanding evolves over time. The ancient Hebrews could not understand this was wrong because it was common place in their day. We understand the wrong of it because culture evolves. Jesus understood it was wrong. Jesus did not say "wipe out the Amalekites" he said "turn the other cheek." He even corrected the understanding of the OT generations when he said "you have heard it said an eye, a tooth for a tooth, but I say to you turn the other cheek." With the Bible we do not proof text. We don't determine what to do by one verse. We use the preponderance of the evidence, meaning everything we can understand about the Bible. We don't stop there, we study and understand what others have said about it. We use the words of the saints and the great theologians as precedents and benchmarks to help us interpret. Samuel was not speaking with authority for all time in telling that story. He was merely telling a story he heard some someone and putting down on paper some tradition (probably the real author was writing from Babylon in the exile--that's the most heavily redacted part of the Bible). He was putting into the work his understanding of God from his experiences as well what he had been taught. But the end result is a narrative and like all narratives it only works to accomplish its task when we try to understand it as a narrative and not force it into molds where it doesn't fit such as memo from the boss, military communique, or auto owner's manual.
We need to understand the bible as literature. It's major function is to bestow grace upon the reader. you read it to be healed to find spiritual edification and to understand God's laws. There are those who think it should be read like an instruction Manuel for a car. They seem to think it's going to tell us every move to make in the same way that the owner's Manual tells us how to change the oil. Since the Bible is a collection of different works written over a long period of time it doesn't make sense to try and fit the whole collection into one model and understand it all in the same way.
We don't have to understand exactly the role of inspiration nor do we need to look for the inspired parts as opposed to the banal parts. What we need to do is understand the overall preponderance of teaching and to weigh in that light what God shows us in our own lives. When we do this grace is bestowed, we are healed, we are drawn closer to God but we do not have to relate to it as if we are reading the instructions to change the oil in the car.
Yes, I so much agree. And because it's a book of wisdom meant to bestow grace, the best way is to read prayerfully, with the expectation that God may be speaking through the medium of the ancient text, something that may be very different from what the plain words are saying, something to our own hearts today. The message I get from these texts is, "See how common it is for humans to use 'God's will' as a justification for their domination over others."
ReplyDeletegood point, although I don't think the hidden meaning can contradict the plain words.
ReplyDeleteIt depends on what you mean. Obviously, we're both saying God doesn't actually command the slaughter of infants, even though that contradicts the plain words. But it's true that it's a mistake to use a verse to go off on a tangent that has nothing to do with the text.
ReplyDeletewhat I meant was Jesus says turn the other cheek and he sortvof puts down a certain reading o the OT (you have heard it said... but I say), so that reading can't contradict Jesus' teaching, not without being over turned.
ReplyDeleteI agree. Jesus' teachings show a better revelation of the nature of God, so we can rely on them.
DeleteSorry, that was me. Not sure why Google decided to log me out.
Deletehttps://www.americamagazine.org/arts-culture/2017/04/06/case-and-problem-case-christ
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ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
DeleteYou never really answered the question: "How Do We Know the Inspired Parts of the Bible?"
ReplyDeleteThe only thing you said is that you don't agree with certain parts, and that's how you know it must not be inspired. I can't argue with that. I certainly agree that parts of the bible were written different in times and cultures, and they reflect the cultural norms of when they were written. Yes, it was accepted that conquering armies would wipe out the vanquished, including wives and babies. Or they would keep the young girls to use as sexual slaves. That was the culture of the time.
What this tells me is that the bible was written by people, and it reflects the beliefs of the authors.
Nope it helps end it the slave trade and discourage slavery so that's not really much of an argument go read some actual scholars on this like bonds of salvation it's a book
DeleteHey there Joe,
ReplyDeleteIt's good to see you're still at it. I trust all is well (or well enough, at least!).
I wanted to invite you to submit a paper for my (relatively) new journal, but I couldn't find an email address for you. So I'm inviting you here and now. Submission guidelines are linked below.
https://www.gerizimpublishing.com/submissions
You can send your manuscript and/or questions you might have to editor@gerizimpublishing.com.
Thanks for your consideration, and God bless you.
Don
Skep I meant to sum up and make it clear, I it is pretty clear already. It is inspired unless it contradicts know teachings of Christ.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeletethe abolition movememt was priarily christians. Most atheists were pro slavery.
ReplyDeleteIs the first person in recorded history you actually condemned slavery unofficially condemned it and didn't prioritize it was a Christian named Nicholas accusa who lived in the third century in Rome here's a quote from him What price did you put on rationality? How many obols did you reckon the equivalent of the likeness of God? How many staters did you get for selling the being shaped by God? ‘God said, let us make man in our own image and likeness’ (Gen 1:26). If he is in the likeness of God, and rules the whole earth, and has been granted authority over everything on earth from God, who is his buyer, tell me? Who is his seller?”
ReplyDelete"the abolition movememt was priarily christians"
ReplyDelete- So was the pro-slavery faction. And they used the bible to justify it.
"Most atheists were pro slavery."
- Reference, please.
im-skeptical said...
ReplyDelete"the abolition movememt was priarily christians"
- So was the pro-slavery faction. And they used the bible to justify it.
Moot point
"Most atheists were pro slavery."
- Reference, please.
https://www.quora.com/Did-atheism-play-any-role-in-the-abolitionist-movements-of-the-pre-Civil-War-United-States
Susanna Viljanen
Knows FinnishAuthor has 14.6K answers and 265.1M answer views3y
None.
Let’s put it bluntly: Scientific Racism was very much a thing during the era, and some of the most fierce Atheists of the 19th century, such as Friedrich Nietzsche, were vocal supporters of slavery.
Atheism and the Scientific Aspect
Answered by
Kriston
Author has 817 answers and 286.6K answer views
·
Apr 13, 2021
If atheism had any role in the abolitionist movement before the American Civil War, it was very minor. Most abolitionists were either Quakers or Christian Evangelists.
What's on YouTube today I saw this funny short https://m.youtube.com/shorts/I4bFE6j_ur8 Stephen Hawking claim that Christianity is just a made-up fairy tale for people who are scared of the dart and my response is and another philosopher's responses well atheism is a made up fairy tale for people who are scared of the light
ReplyDeleteHey hey I read very heard very good things about this book I'm going to buy it next month and I think you should review it on the blog it's called Derrick Peterson
ReplyDeleteFlat Earths and Fake Footnotes: The Strange Tale of How the Conflict of Science and Christianity Was Written Into History
See more
People just wrote what they felt was true based upon their understanding of God.
ReplyDeleteSome of it was to promote observance of and obedience to their God.
Some of it was to promote a sense of unity in the face of fragmentation and suppression by outside forces.
You can claim that some of it is the product of revelation but it's not something that can be supported evidentially. It's something to be taken on faith.
Mostly it's just to get people to join their team and to retain them once they had. Either the YHVH team in the OT or the Jesus team in the New.
What's on YouTube today I saw this funny short https://m.youtube.com/shorts/I4bFE6j_ur8 Stephen Hawking claim that Christianity is just a made-up fairy tale for people who are scared of the dart and my response is and another philosopher's responses well atheism is a made up fairy tale for people who are scared of the light
ReplyDeletei was going "the dart, what is the dart? maybe we should be afraid of it?
4:35 PM
Daniel said...
Hey hey I read very heard very good things about this book I'm going to buy it next month and I think you should review it on the blog it's called Derrick Peterson
Flat Earths and Fake Footnotes: The Strange Tale of How the Conflict of Science and Christianity Was Written Into History
See more
I'll check it out
https://www.quora.com/Did-atheism-play-any-role-in-the-abolitionist-movements-of-the-pre-Civil-War-United-States
ReplyDelete- Not really an authoritative reference. But it may help a little. It mentions exactly one atheist who wasn't against slavery: Friedrich Nietzsche, and he came after the abolitionist movement. But Nietzsche is not the voice of atheism by any means. Most atheists don't think much of him or his philosophical stances. There were a couple of other atheists mentioned (Darwin and Ingersol), and they were both staunchly anti-slavery. How about Mark Twain? The fact is that there weren't many atheists in those days, but most of the ones we know of were against slavery. And whether you want to admit or not, most of the people who fought to continue the practice of slavery were Christians.
This was Civil War times, and vastly, most Americans were Christians, so you could safely say of just about any group of that era that most of them were Christians as well. I have read defenses of slavery from both religious and secular/scientific perspectives.
DeleteMetacrock I read something that bothered me could I ask you to respond to it in an email
ReplyDeleteSkep we can't just count noteworthy individuals we need evidence om groups.
ReplyDeleteyou have my email Dan you need permission to email me, just do it,
ReplyDeletewe can't just count noteworthy individuals
ReplyDelete- So I asked you for a reference for your claim: "Most atheists were pro slavery." That's what you gave me. One guy. Do you have anything else to back that up? I don't believe it's true.
Hey could you do an article on Romans 1:3 in Galatians 4
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ReplyDeletehttps://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/16065
ReplyDeleteWould you respond to that god-awful carrier article he's a good response to it but I want you to make a https://historyforatheists.com/2020/05/jesus-mythicism-6-pauls-davidic-jesus-in-romans-13/
ReplyDeleteWhat will be your next post
ReplyDeleteI have a thing against Carrier I will post for Monday but I wont answer the one about Jesus was built out of David's sperm because no scholar takes that idea seriously it's stupid on face.
ReplyDeleteHey do you have anything on one Thessalonians 2 13-¹⁶ the Jews who crucified Jesus think it's authentic but people like mysticists argue it's a it's an interpolation I think it's authentic will you ever make an article on that
ReplyDelete