Monday, March 04, 2024

The Point of Religion

My original statement: "religion is justified on its own terms."

Pix: If your argument is right, then the belief that Thor controls thunder "is justified on its own terms". Do you really think that is the case?

Me: Only if you have a comic book understanding of religion. You think religion is a big bully boy in the clouds and you better do what he says then know nothing about religion. My statement boils down to there is ultimate transformative experience that resolves the issue in the human problematic and gives meaning to existence. One such example of this transformative experience is the feeling of utter dependence. That feeling justifies the need to resolve the problematic.

Atheists tend to see religion as competing strong men. They are always justopossimg individual deities against each other, Like in man's post human ampliofied the most powerful people and projected them imto skay riding status and that's all religion can ever be for atheists. Meanwhile thinking religious people moved on.

What follows is a statement I wrote so long ago the name Metacrock still seemed new. The statement was part of my page on Biblical revelation so it analyzes the religious a priori in terms of the Bible and specifically questions of the  historicity of the Bible. I think it does expand the meaning of my statement about the point of religion.

All religions seek to do three things.

All religions seek to do three things:

a) to identify the human problematic,
b) to identify an ultimate transformative experience (UTE) which resolves the
problematic, and
c) to mediate between the two.

But not all religions are equal. All are relative to the truth but not all are equal. Some mediate the UTE better than others, or in a more accessible way than others. Given the foregoing, my criteria are that:

1) a religious tradition reflects a human problematic which is meaningful in terms of what we find in the world.

2) the UTE be found to really resolve the problematic

. 3) it mediates the UTE in such a way as to be effective and accessible.

4) its putative and crucial historical claims be historically probable given the ontological and epistemological assumptions that are required within the inner logic of that belief system.

5) it be consistent with itself and with the external world in a way that touches these factors.

These mean that I am not interested in piddling Biblical contradictions such as how many women went to the tomb, ect. but in terms of the major claims of the faith as they touch the human problematic and its resolution.

How Does the Bible fulfill these criteria? First, what is the Bible? Is it a rule book? Is it a manual of discipline? Is it a science textbook? A history book? No it is none of these. The Bible, the Canon, the NT in particular, is a means of bestowing Grace. What does that mean? It means first, it is not an epistemology! It is not a method of knowing how we know, nor is it a history book. It is a means of coming into contact with the UTE mentioned above. This means that the primary thing it has to do to demonstrate its veracity is not be accurate historically, although it is that in the main; but rather, its task is to connect one to the depository of truth in the teachings of Jesus such that one is made open to the ultimate transformative experience. Thus the main thing the Bible has to do to fulfill these criteria is to communicate this transformation. This can only be judged phenomenologically. It is not a matter of proving that the events are true, although there are ensconces where that becomes important.

Thus the main problem is not the existence of these piddling so-called contradictions (and my experience is 90% of them stem from not knowing how to read a text), but rather the extent to which the world and life stack up to the picture presented as a fallen world, engaged in the human problematic and transformed by the light of Christ. Now that means that the extent to which the problematic is adequately reflected, that being sin, separation from God, meaninglessness, the wages of sin, the dregs of life, and so forth, vs. the saving power of God's grace to transform life and change the direction in which one lives to face God and to hope and future. This is something that cannot be decided by the historical aspects or by any objective account. It is merely the individual's problem to understand and to experience. That is the nature of what religion does and the extent to which Christianity does it more accessibly and more efficaciously is the extent to which it should be seen as valid.

The efficacy is not an objective issue either, but the fact that only a couple of religions in the world share the concept of Grace should be a clue. No other religion (save Pure Land Buddhism) have this notion. For all the others there is a problem of one's own efforts. The Grace mediates and administrates through Scriptures is experienced in the life of the believer, and can be found also in prayer, in the sacraments and so forth.

Where the historical questions should enter into it are where the mediation of the UTE hedges upon these historical aspects. Obviously the existence of Jesus of Nazareth would be one, his death on the cross another. The Resurrection of course, doctrinally is also crucial, but since that cannot be established in an empirical sense, seeing as no historical question can be, we must use historical probability. That is not blunted by the minor discrepancies in the number of women at the tomb or who got there first. That sort of thinking is to think in terms of a video documentary. We expect the NT to have the sort of accuracy we find in a court room because we are moderns and we watch too much television. The number of women and when they got to the tomb etc. does not have a bearing on whether the tomb actually existed, was guarded and was found empty. Nor does it really change the fact that people claimed to have seen Jesus after his death alive and well and ascending into heaven. We can view the different strands of NT witness as separate sources, since they were not written as one book, but by different authors at different times and brought together later.

The historicity of the NT is a logical assumption given the nature of the works. We can expect that the Gospels will be polemical. We do not need to assume, however, that they will be fabricated from whole cloth. They are the product of the communities that redacted them. That is viewed as a fatal weakness in fundamentalist circles, tantamount to saying that they are lies. But that is silly. In reality there is no particular reason why the community cannot be a witness. The differences in the accounts are produced by either the ordering of periscopes to underscore various theological points or the use of witnesses who fanned out through the various communities and whose individual view points make up the variety of the text. This is not to be confused with contradiction simply because it reflects differences in individual's view points and distracts us from the more important points of agreement; the tomb was empty, the Lord was seen risen, there were people who put their hands in his nail prints, etc.

The overall question about Biblical contradiction goes back to the basic nature of the text. What sort of text is it? Is it a Sunday school book? A science textbook? A history book? And how does inspiration work? The question about the nature of inspiration is the most crucial. This is because the basic notion of the fundamentalists is that of verbal plenary inspiration. If we assume that this is the only sort of inspiration then we have a problem. One mistake and verbal plenary inspiration is out the window. The assumption that every verse is inspired and every word is true comes not from the Church fathers or from the Christian tradition. It actually starts with Humanists in the Renaissance and finds its final development in the 19th century with people like J. N. Drably and Warfield. (see, Avery Dulles Models of Revelation).

One of my major reasons for rejecting this model of revelation is because it is not true to the nature of transformation. Verbal plenary inspiration assumes that God uses authors like we use pencils or like businessmen use secretaries, to take dictation (that is). But why should we assume that this is the only form of inspiration? Only because we have been conditioned by American Christianity to assume that this must be the case. This comes from the Reformation's tendency to see the Bible as epistemology rather than as a means of bestowing grace (see William Abraham, Canon and Criterion). Why should be approach the text with this kind of baggage? We should approach it, not assuming that Moses et al. were fundamentalist preachers, but that they experienced God in their lives through the transformative power of the Spirit and that their writings and readings are a reflection of this experience. That is more in keeping with the nature of religion as we find it around the world. That being the case, we should have no problem with finding that mythology of Babylonian and Suzerain cultures are used in Genesis, with the view toward standing them on their heads, or that some passages are idealized history that reflect a nationalistic agenda. But the experiences of God come through in the text in spite of these problems because the text itself, when viewed in dialectical relation between reader and text (Barth/Dulles) does bestow grace and does enable transformation.

After all the Biblical texts were not written as "The Bible" but were compiled from a huge voluminous body of works which were accepted as scripture or as "holy books" for quite some time before they were collected and put in a single list and even longer before they were printed as one book: the Bible. Therefore, that this book may contradict itself on some points is of no consequence. Rather than reflecting dictation, or literal writing as though the author was merely a pencil in the hands of God, what they really reflect is the record of people's experiences of God in their lives and the way in which those experiences suggested their choice of material/redaction. In short, inspiration of scripture is a product of the transformation afore mentioned. It is the verbalization of inner-experience which mediates grace, and in turn it mediates grace itself.

The Bible is not the Perfect Revelation of God to humanity. Jesus is that perfect revelation. The Gospels are merely the record of Jesus' teachings, deposited with the communities and encoded for safe keeping in the list chosen through Apostolic backing to assure Christian identity. For that matter the Bible as a whole is a reflection of the experience of transformation and as such, since it was the product of human agents we can expect it to have human flaws. The extent to which those flaws are negligible can be judge the ability of that deposit of truth to adequately promote transformation. Christ authorizes the Apostles, the Apostles authorize the community, the community authorizes the tradition, and the tradition authorizes the canon.



45 comments:

im-skeptical said...

"my experience is 90% of them stem from not knowing how to read a text"

Right. Because you have to know which parts to believe, and which to reject. You have to read it in accordance with what your own beliefs tell you, and ignore anything it says that doesn't fit. You have to concede that there are parts of the bible that can't be true, and rationalize them away, or come up with some excuse as to why those things are there. You have to ignore the fact that other people (including devout Christians) pick and choose different parts from the ones you do. You have to believe that your own understanding of the biblical text is the one true and correct way to read it, and everyone else who has a different understanding is wrong.

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...


Right. Because you have to know which parts to believe, and which to reject.

not what I mean about how to read a text


You have to read it in accordance with what your own beliefs tell you, and ignore anything it says that doesn't fit.


no you let it inform your beliefs



You have to concede that there are parts of the bible that can't be true, and rationalize them away, or come up with some excuse as to why those things are there.

I don't take the OT literally I don't take it as history.



You have to ignore the fact that other people (including devout Christians) pick and choose different parts from the ones you do.


No I consider their exegesis


You have to believe that your own understanding of the biblical text is the one true and correct way to read it, and everyone else who has a different understanding is wrong.


that is totally ridiculous, Adults don't think tha way, I have never said m7 understanding is the true one.



im-skeptical said...

"that is totally ridiculous, Adults don't think tha way, I have never said m7 understanding is the true one."

But they don't know how to read it, and you do.

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

yes because I went to seminary and I about textual criticism.

im-skeptical said...

OK. So that makes you right, and everyone who reads it differently is wrong.

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

im-skeptical said...
"that is totally ridiculous, Adults don't think tha way, I have never said m7 understanding is the true one."

But they don't know how to read it, and you do.

10:46 AM
Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...
yes because I went to seminary and I about textual criticism.

12:20 PM
im-skeptical said...
OK. So that makes you right, and everyone who reads it differently is wrong.

Obviously I think I'm right don't you think you are right? But there are varying degrees of my feelings of being right. Some things I am more right about than others

im-skeptical said...

I think you read it in a way that suits what you believe. Others do that as well. But people don't agree about what the bible is telling us. I said before that you don't need the bible. You believe what you believe, and your reading of the bible simply echoes what you already believe. So what use is the bible? If you believe that killing is good, you can read the bible and confirm that belief. Why bother with reading it? It says whatever you want to hear.

Cuttlebones said...

a) to identify the human problematic
Which is what exactly?

Anonymous said...

Joe: That is not blunted by the minor discrepancies in the number of women at the tomb or who got there first. That sort of thinking is to think in terms of a video documentary. We expect the NT to have the sort of accuracy we find in a court room because we are moderns and we watch too much television. The number of women and when they got to the tomb etc. does not have a bearing on whether the tomb actually existed, was guarded and was found empty.

The problem we have is that you need a good explanation as to why there is this discrepency. Why would the disciples have got it wrong?

Why did the author of Mark think women found the empty tomb without men involved, and the risen Jesus was first seen in Galilee, while the author of John thought the women only saw the stone rolled away, and it was a man who observed it was empty, and he saw Jesus right there in Jerusalem?

Are they really different witness accounts? If the author of Mark was Peter's secretary, how could he fail to know that Peter was first into the empty tomb? That is simply not possible. If it really happened that way, Peter would have told that story literally thousands of times, and Mark would have heard most of those tellings himself.

Joe: Nor does it really change the fact that people claimed to have seen Jesus after his death alive and well and ascending into heaven. We can view the different strands of NT witness as separate sources, since they were not written as one book, but by different authors at different times and brought together later.

The problem you have is that Luke and Matthew were clearly based on Mark. These were not separate sources; they had a single source. The author of Matthew had Mark in front of him, he could see that in Mark the women told no one after seeing the tomb, and he chose to change the story to have them immediately tell the disciples.

If the author of Matthew is right, why did Mark say they told no one? How could Mark get that wrong when he was Peter's secretary?

Joe: The historicity of the NT is a logical assumption given the nature of the works. We can expect that the Gospels will be polemical. We do not need to assume, however, that they will be fabricated from whole cloth. They are the product of the communities that redacted them.

And that redaction process including making up the empty tomb earlier in the process, and the guard on the tomb some time later. The author of Matthew even tells us why they made up the guard on the tomb - to counter stories that the disciples stole the body.

This is not assuming the stories were fabricated from whole cloth. This is noting that as a possibility, and then seeing how it matches the evidence. As far as I can see, it matces up better than an actual empty tomb.

Pix

F2Andy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Consider these two possibilities:

Hypothesis 1: Jesus was bodily resurrected, leaving an empty tomb which was discovered on Easter Sunday by Peter, but his secretary never heard about that and thought women discovered the tomb

Hypothesis 2: Jesus was resurrected in a new body, and seen in Galilee; the empty tomb was made up later, as were the guard on the tomb and all the sightings around Jerusalem

Both have asupernatural resurrection - I am not rejecting the supernatural out of hand. Out of the two, I think the second is the one that actually makes sense.

Joe: That is viewed as a fatal weakness in fundamentalist circles, tantamount to saying that they are lies. But that is silly. In reality there is no particular reason why the community cannot be a witness. The differences in the accounts are produced by either the ordering of periscopes to underscore various theological points or the use of witnesses who fanned out through the various communities and whose individual view points make up the variety of the text.

You are just glossing over the problems here.

Joe: This is not to be confused with contradiction simply because it reflects differences in individual's view points and distracts us from the more important points of agreement; the tomb was empty, the Lord was seen risen, there were people who put their hands in his nail prints, etc.

But you are just describing an evolving story. In ca. AD 50 when Paul was writing, they believed the risen Jesus had been seen. The story evolved to include the empty tomb in AD 70 and Mark's gospel. By the end of the century it included the examination of Jesus' wounds. The points of commonality are because these ideas spread across Christianity - not in small part because they were written in the gospels I would guess. Seriously, claiming commonality between Mark, Matthew and Luke is pretty desparate when we know Matthew and Luke are largely copied from Mark!

Pix

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

the human problematic is what makes the human condition.

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

Pix: But you are just describing an evolving story. In ca. AD 50 when Paul was writing, they believed the risen Jesus had been seen. The story evolved to include the empty tomb in AD 70 and Mark's gospel. By the end of the century it included the examination of Jesus' wounds. The points of commonality are because these ideas spread across Christianity - not in small part because they were written in the gospels I would guess. Seriously, claiming commonality between Mark, Matthew and Luke is pretty desparate when we know Matthew and Luke are largely copied from Mark!

That us ridiculous, The odds are against the facts clinging so tightly to the writings.... Those sightings stories had to come in the first couple of years. they can't go fifty years latter 'O and there these women...,' why mention the women at all? wgy make up a bunch of women? Yhr Gospels were written 70 and after so cthe res story had been around 50 years. suddenly they have this story bout women,

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

The problem you have is that Luke and Matthew were clearly based on Mark. These were not separate sources; they had a single source. The author of Matthew had Mark in front of him, he could see that in Mark the women told no one after seeing the tomb, and he chose to change the story to have them immediately tell the disciples.

You need up the synoptic problem. scholars think Matt and Luke their own unique sources in addition to Mark. They talk about an L source,

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

you also ignore the pre Mark redaction, scholars don't Mark was the first just the first of the canonicals.

im-skeptical said...

"scholars don't Mark was the first just the first of the canonicals."

- Other scholars disagree. The fact is that you can find "scholars" to support just about any view you want to hold. You can talk about "L" sources, and "Q" sources, but these things are contrived. There are no such actual documents, and no evidence that they ever existed as written documents. They are simply ways of explaining commonalities between the gospel stories, and they ignore the most likely historical reality: that the gospels are drawn from an evolving oral tradition that was not written down before the first of the gospels. The later gospels then drew from the earlier ones, and also the stories that continued to evolve over the course of first century. In part, those stories included details that were meant to explain certain problematic aspects of the earlier versions. But they also included a clearly evolving picture of Jesus himself - of who and what he was.

Anonymous said...

Joe: That us ridiculous, The odds are against the facts clinging so tightly to the writings....

I do not know what that means.

Joe: Those sightings stories had to come in the first couple of years. they can't go fifty years latter 'O and there these women...,'

The sighting of the risen Jesus would be weeks to months after the crucifixion - but in Galilee, not Jerusalem. This is the creed in 1 Cor 15. That is why Mark ends saying Jesus would be seen there. See also the Gospel of Peter.

Joe: why mention the women at all? wgy make up a bunch of women? Yhr Gospels were written 70 and after so cthe res story had been around 50 years. suddenly they have this story bout women,

The women were made up because Mark needed witnesses to the empty tomb, but he also had to explain why no one was talking about the empty tomb until decades later. Women who never told anyone, and were dead by the time Mark was writing, were ideal.

Joe: You need up the synoptic problem. scholars think Matt and Luke their own unique sources in addition to Mark. They talk about an L source,

How would that work? You are saying there were witnesses Mark had not heard of forty years after the event, but somehow materialised just a few years later?

What happened to the community as witness? The reality is that the disciples would have done nothing but talk about this for years after. They would all know what they all saw. The whole community would be a single witness, a single source.

The later sources for the other gospels was the rumour mill - stories that were made up.

Joe: you also ignore the pre Mark redaction, scholars don't Mark was the first just the first of the canonicals.

So what? All that means is the empty tomb was perhaps made up say around AD 55, rather than in AD 70 by Mark. And further more, it increases the likelihood John is based on the same source, i.e., the pre-Mark narrative, rather than Mark itself.

Pix

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

The women were made up because Mark needed witnesses to the empty tomb, but he also had to explain why no one was talking about the empty tomb until decades later. Women who never told anyone, and were dead by the time Mark was writing, were ideal.

That is so totally wrong no scholar supports it. At least I've heard of one who does. We know they were talking about it the day it happed and it's the only idea that makes sense. You are expecting the people of Jesus' day to think like modern apologists. The empty t was not important because they did not think about forensic evidence. They thought about the risen Christ which they accepted because they had seen him or knew who had. There was no need to explain why no one was talking about the empty tomb.

We have all four accounts and Paul who point out witnesses who saw the risen Christ. Paul points out He appeared to James. So the resurrection idea was being put about from the very beginning. why wait 50 Years to decode you need witnesses when they had them: Margy Magdelin and peter.

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...


Joe: you also ignore the pre Mark redaction, scholars don't Mark was the first just the first of the canonicals.

Pix:So what? All that means is the empty tomb was perhaps made up say around AD 55, rather than in AD 70 by Mark. And further more, it increases the likelihood John is based on the same source, i.e., the pre-Mark narrative, rather than Mark itself.

You assert dogmatically that it's made up. You have no reason to assert that other than not wanting it to be true.

Anonymous said...

Joe: That is so totally wrong no scholar supports it. At least I've heard of one who does.

It fits the evidence we have. We know Mark believed the risen Jesius was seen in Galilee. We can be sure the disciples talked incessently about the events around the crucifixion and that sighting. That Paul omits the empty tomb in 1 Cor 15 makes it vey likely he was not aware of it. And for some reason Mark states the women told no one.

I have yet to see a hypothesis that better fits those facts.

Joe: We know they were talking about it the day it happed and it's the only idea that makes sense.

My claim is founded on them talking about it!

Joe: You are expecting the people of Jesus' day to think like modern apologists. The empty t was not important because they did not think about forensic evidence. They thought about the risen Christ which they accepted because they had seen him or knew who had. There was no need to explain why no one was talking about the empty tomb.

It is not about them thinking of evidence, it is about them recounting their experiences. If the Gospel of John is right, Peter was the first to see the empty tomb. This was his first hint Jesus had risen. You really want to delude yourself that Peter did not tell everyone he met about what he experienced, what he felt when he found the tomb was empty?

The ony possible reason he would have for not doing so is because it never actually happened!

Joe: We have all four accounts and Paul who point out witnesses who saw the risen Christ. Paul points out He appeared to James. So the resurrection idea was being put about from the very beginning.

Absolutely the resurrection was put about from the beginning. I never said otherwise. The disciples saw something they believed was the risen Jesus, and that was likely just weeks or months after the crucifixion. But it was in Galilee, not Jerusalem, as Mark makes clear (and the Gospel of Peter).

Joe: why wait 50 Years to decode you need witnesses when they had them: Margy Magdelin and peter.

You are conflating the resurrection and the empty tomb. Belief in the resurrection was from a few months after Jesus was crucified. The empty tomb was made up decades later - after Paul was writing his letters.

The empty tomb could have been made up in say AD 55, and when Mark came to write his gospel he realised he needed someone to discover it was empty. But he also had to explain why those living in Jerusalem at that time - including the surviving disciples - did not hear stories about an empty tomb at the time, so Mark invented the women finding the tomb, but not telling anyone.

Later the author of John changed the story to have Peter find the tomb was empty, because that suited his purpose better. This was maybe 70 years after the event, and all witnesses were dead, so he could make up what he wanted - and what he wanted was a man finding the tomb because a man is a more reliable witness.

Pix

im-skeptical said...

"We know Mark believed the risen Jesius was seen in Galilee. "

That was added later, by someone else. That part of Mark's gospel isn't in the oldest version we have.

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

how do you know that? quote a scholar saying it,

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

no way the empty could have been made as late as the 50s. they could not introduce a major aspect of the plot that late it had to be early before Pau; was a christian. E,[ty tp,b = resurrection,

Anonymous said...

im-skeptical: That was added later, by someone else. That part of Mark's gospel isn't in the oldest version we have.

It is in the original. Mark 16:9-20 was added later. This is in Mark 16:7.

Mark 16:7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter, ‘He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.’”

Pix

Anonymous said...

Joe: no way the empty could have been made as late as the 50s. they could not introduce a major aspect of the plot that late it had to be early before Pau; was a christian. E,[ty tp,b = resurrection,

Yes they could, as long as they included a rationale for the story appearing later.

Mark 16:8 Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.

Pix

im-skeptical said...

Oops. Sorry about that. I should have checked. Yes, it was what the angel told them, but not what any person witnessed.

Anonymous said...

That indicates the author was not aware of anyone seeing (or claiming to see) the risen Jesus in Jerusalem before the disciples returned to Galilee. This was supposedly Peter's secretary; if Peter saw Jesus is Jerusalem on that Sunday or had personally seen the empty tomb, Mark would have heard of it numerous times.

And that also fits with the account in the Gospel of Peter, which has Peter first see the risen Jesus on the Sea of Galilee, which in turn fits Paul, who has Peter see Jesus first.

These are the earliest accounts, from when some disciples were stil alive to keep the rumour mill in check.

Pix

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

you have a whole little fictional world made up, a world where every single detail is different from the text.I don't think you have any idea what those guys were about. The text has to have some relation to reality. still obscessed with the stupid
Galilee thing, Obviously he meant that he would meet the whole gang there not that he would never appear to anyone in Jerusalem.

im-skeptical said...

"you have a whole little fictional world made up"

Snort.

Anonymous said...

The simple fact is that the oldest gospel we have ended like this:

Mark 16:4 But when they looked up, they saw that the stone, which was very large, had been rolled away. 5 As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man dressed in a white robe sitting on the right side, and they were alarmed.
6 “Don’t be alarmed,” he said. “You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him. 7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter, ‘He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.’”
8 Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.

Whatever narrative you come up you need to explain why Mark, Peter's secretary, believed the risen Jesus was (first) seen in Galilee and believe the women told no one (at that time).

There is a clear contradiction between Mark and Matthew with regards to the woman telling anyone. One of them, at least, is wrong. Why is it wrong? Your narrative has to explain that to be plausible. If it cannot, then it does not fit the evidence, and should be rejected.

The oldest account we have is:

1 Cor 15:3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas,[b] and then to the Twelve.

So your narrative also needs to explain why that account omits the empty tomb and why it has Peter see the risen Jesus first.

Sure they are many many other verses in the gospels that also have to be explained. There is a reason why every verse is there. But most of the passion accounts can be explained as embellishments added to make the story better from the author's perspective, and added at a time when all the witnesses were dead and buried.

Why was the guard on the tomb made up? To counter claims the body was stolen. Why was Jesus eating fish made up? To counter claims he was just a ghost. Why was an honourable burial made up? Because they wanted Jesus to have had an honourable burial.

Pix

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

What city were the women in?

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

so the women Never told anyone for the rest of their lives, so how did Mark know about them going to the tomb?

You want contradictions, I have harmonized all 4 accounts at various times because I didn't want contradictions it can be done.

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

"You have to read it in accordance with what your own beliefs tell you, and ignore anything it says that doesn't fit." Pixie

No I don't actually. I've go around on the net calling myself an not-inerrntist. So if I really am an errantist I have to make room for some errors and contradictions. But I do believe in minimizing them. I must admit my own harmony of the res scenes in the four gospels there is one passage in Lue I can't harmonize.

No passage in the bible says there "this is the bible it must inerrant."

Anonymous said...

Joe: What city were the women in?

I take it you still are not reading what I post. The women seeing the empty tomb was made up, between AD 50 and AD 70.

Joe: so the women Never told anyone for the rest of their lives, so how did Mark know about them going to the tomb?

Of course the women never told anyone, because it never happened!

And Mark "knew" about it because he made it up.

Joe: You want contradictions, I have harmonized all 4 accounts at various times because I didn't want contradictions it can be done.

So tell me about it.

Mark 16:8 Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.

Matthew 28:8 So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples.

If you want to claim Mark only meant they did not tell anyone right then, but they did some time later, that is fine. I think the text fits that. But it flat out contradicts Matthew, which says they immediately ran to tell the disciples.

Either they immediately told the disciples, and Mark got it wrong, or they did not, and Matthew got it wrong. Which do you go for? And how do you explain the mistake? If you say Mark got it wrong, how do you explain Peter's secretary not knowing that Peter was told about the empty tomb on that day? Or that Peter discovered it, if you go with John.

Joe: No passage in the bible says there "this is the bible it must inerrant."

Okay... This means what, exactly? That you are acknowledging that all the Jerusalem sightings of the risen Jesus was made up after AD 70?

You can still have the resurrection even if I am right. You just have to drop the accompanying baggage; the empty tomb, the honour burial, etc. As Paul said, it is the resurrection that is big deal here; everything hangs on that. I am sure the disciples saw something they believed was the risen Jesus. But they did so in Galilee, not Jerusalem.

Pix

im-skeptical said...

Joe: I must admit my own harmony of the res scenes in the four gospels there is one passage in Lue I can't harmonize.

No passage in the bible says there "this is the bible it must inerrant."


So apparently, you are telling us that you have found ways to rationalize all the blatant discrepancies in the gospels, with the exception of one, and therefore, you are willing to accept that the bible is not inerrant. I congratulate you on making that admission. But at the same time, it raises questions about how far you are willing to stretch credulity in making all those "harmonizations" (ie. rationalizations.) I mean, it requires some mental gymnastics, and you have to reject answers that more obvious, and also more likely. But that would come at the cost of casting doubt on what you believe. That's territory you aren't willing to tread upon, no matter what the evidence is.

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

the idea that it's full of discrepancies is propaganda.

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...


Your goal is to destroy the text and destroy Christianity mu goal is to find truth,

But at the same time, it raises questions about how far you are willing to stretch credulity in making all those "harmonizations" (ie. rationalizations.)

Obviously I am the more reliable bringer of truth, i am willing to admit when there's a real contradiction. But I am not trying to destroy the text as you are.


I mean, it requires some mental gymnastics, and you have to reject answers that more obvious, and also more likely.


No because there aren't that many and most are trivial. show me an example.

But that at the cost of casting doubt on what you believe. That's territory you aren't willing to tread upon, no matter what the evidence is.

You're not willing to consider with an open mind.

Anonymous said...

Note that James Tabor, a Christian scholar, agrees with me that the risen Jesus was seen in Galilee (though he does believe the empty tomb and women witnessing happened):

"Most everyone has in his or her head the movie version of the post-resurrection scenes that one finds in Luke 24 and John 20 where Jesus appears to his disciples on several occasions in Jerusalem. Luke not only reports nothing of the Galilee tradition but he seems to explicitly counter it in the scene where Jesus tells his disciples to stay in the city until Shavuot/Pentecost (Luke 24:49). In contrast the Galilee tradition is all that Mark knows, and Matthew follows him wholly in that regard. John 21, which is an appended ending to that Gospel, offers a most interesting account of Jesus encountering the disciples in Galilee when they have gone back to their fishing business. It is that tradition that the GPeter also seems to know, placing the return home, as one would expect, following the seven days of Unleavened Bread at the end of the Passover holiday. If one accepts that the empty tomb visit by Mary Magdalene and the women early Sunday morning belongs to a more original or earlier strata of the GPeter, as I am convinced is the case, then we have another independent witness to this all but forgotten post-resurrection scenario with no appearances of Jesus to the disciples in Jerusalem following the discovery of the empty tomb and their return to their fishing business in Galilee. This essential outline of things is supported by Mark, Matthew, John 21, and the GPeter with the alternative Jerusalem scenario found only in Luke 24 and John 20."2

https://jamestabor.com/the-surprising-ending-of-the-lost-gospel-of-peter/

Pix

im-skeptical said...

"Your goal is to destroy the text and destroy Christianity mu goal is to find truth"
- You couldn't be more wrong. I'm the one (between you and me) who is trying to read the text and understand what was being said at the time it was written, rather than infusing it with beliefs from later times.

"Obviously I am the more reliable bringer of truth, i am willing to admit when there's a real contradiction. But I am not trying to destroy the text as you are."
- If truth is what you call the evidence-free belief system that was inculcated in you from the day you were born - long before you had the mental capacity to engage in any kind of critical thinking. I quote St Ignatius Loyala: "Give me a child till he’s seven, and I will show you the man" Now that's the truth.

"No because there aren't that many and most are trivial. show me an example. "
- Here are some examples of contradictions, many of which may be regarded as trivial (but I would be hesitant to simply ignore all these):
https://ia801303.us.archive.org/31/items/ContradicitonsInTheNewTestament/194ContradInNt.pdf
However, lists such as this one tend to omit the bigger picture, which is far from trivial. You hear me speaking about the evolution of the narrative. And the evidence on that score is perfectly clear. See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_the_1st_century
Why doesn't Mark discuss the early life of Jesus? Because at that time, there was no divine birth narrative. Jesus was seen as a fully human person. And it should be noted that Mark's Jesus didn't call himself divine, either. Divine status was achieved after he died. But that would change. Matthew and Luke, in the light of the evolving story of Jesus' divinity, needed to ratchet divinity back to the time of his birth. But Luke's story about the birth of Jesus was at odds with Matthew's. Sure, you can come up with ways to reconcile them, but it is perfectly clear that at that time, the narrative hadn't fully jelled. And then, there's John. He pushes divinity back again, to an eternal existence. And John's account of the life of Jesus has him preaching about himself in a way that Mark would never have imagined, because John's view of Jesus was not the prevailing view, and probably didn't exist at all, when Mark's gospel was written.

"You're not willing to consider with an open mind."
- As I've told you before, I was raised as a Christian. But obviously, my training wasn't as deeply ingrained as yours. Sure, I knew all the stories, all the basic tenets of Christian belief. I went to (Catholic) catechism class as a child. And I believed, just as you do. But somewhere along the way, I began to question things that didn't seem to make sense. And I learned to think in a way that doesn't presume the truth of all those teachings. Critical thinking requires an open mind. Allegiance to faith doesn't.

Cuttlebones said...

(Metacrock) said...
the human problematic is what makes the human condition.


Thanks MC, but that doesn't really tell me anything.
What is the "human condition" that religion provides a remedy for?

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

Humn condition is an expression used to the problems human encounter for being human, war, starvation, feelings that life is meaningless. all the problems that come of being human.

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

we have a ne blog piece so I am closing this one

im-skeptical said...

Your main blog page is disabled.

im-skeptical said...

Try removing both of the new posts.

Cuttlebones said...

Humn condition is an expression used to the problems human encounter for being human, war, starvation, feelings that life is meaningless. all the problems that come of being human.

So religion is just a balm for existential angst? Or as Marx said "The opiate of the masses".
Are these problems that come from being human, or are they the products of our society?