The most radical view will be that of mythology in the Bible. This is a difficult concept for most Christians to grasp, because most of us are taught that "myth" means a lie, that it's a dirty word, an insult, and that it is really debunking the Bible or rejecting it as God's word. The problem is in our understanding of myth. "Myth" does not mean lie; it does not mean something that is necessarily untrue. It is a literary genre—a way of telling a story. In Genesis, for example, the creation story and the story of the Garden are mythological. They are based on Babylonian and Sumerian myths that contain the same elements and follow the same outlines. But three things must be noted: 1) Myth is not a dirty word, not a lie. Myth is a very healthy thing. 2) The point of the myth is the point the story is making--not the literal historical events of the story. So the point of mythologizing creation is not to transmit historical events but to make a point. We will look more closely at these two points. 3) I don't assume mythology in the Bible out of any tendency to doubt miracles or the supernatural, I believe in them. I base this purely on the way the text is written.
In Kerenyi's essays on a Science of Mythology[1] we find the two figures of the maiden and the Krone. These are standard figures repeated throughout myths of every culture. They serve different functions, but are symbolic of the same woman at different times in her life. The Krone is the enlightener, the guide, the old wise woman who guides the younger into maidenhood. In Genesis we find something different. Here the Pagan myths follow the same outline and contain many of the same characters (Adam and Adapa—see, Cornfeld Archaeology of the Bible[2] 1976).
But in Genesis we find something different. The chaotic creation story of Babylon is ordered and the source of creation is different. Rather than being emerging out of Tiamot (chaos) we find "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Order is imposed. We have a logical and orderly progression (as opposed to the Pagan primordial chaos). The seven days of creation represent perfection and it is another aspect of order, seven periods, the seventh being rest. Moreover, the point of the story changes. In the Babylonian myth the primordial chaos is the ages of creation, and there is no moral overtone, the story revolves around other things. This is a common element in mythology, a world in which the myths happen, mythological time and place. All of these elements taken together are called Myths, and every mythos has a cosmogony, an explanation of creation and being (I didn't say there were no explanations in myth.). We find these elements in the Genesis story, Cosmogony included. But, the point of the story becomes moral: it becomes a story about man rebelling against God, the entrance of sin into the world. So the Genesis account is a literary rendering of pagan myth, but it stands that myth on its head. It is saying God is the true source of creation and the true point is that life is about knowing God.
The mythological elements are more common in the early books of the Bible. The material becomes more historical as we go along. How do we know? Because the mythical elements of the first account immediately drop away. Elements such as the talking serpent, the timeless time ("in the beginning"), the firmament and other aspects of the myth all drop away. The firmament was the ancient world's notion of the world itself. It was a flat earth set upon angular pillars, with a dome over it. On the inside of the dome stars were stuck on, and it contained doors in the dome through which snow and rain could be forced through by the gods (that's why Genesis says "he divided the waters above the firmament from the waters below”). We are clearly in a mythological world in Genesis. The Great flood is mythology as well, as all nations have their flood myths. But as we move through the Bible things become more historical.
The NT is not mythological at all. The Resurrection of Christ is an historical event and can be argued as such (see Resurrection page). Christ is a flesh and blood historical person who can be validated as having existed. The resurrection is set in an historical setting, names, dates, places are all historically verifiable and many have been validated. So the major point I'm making is that God uses myth to communicate to humanity. The mythical elements create the sort of psychological healing and force of literary strength and guidance that any mythos conjures up. God is novelist, he inspires myth. That is to say, the inner experience model led the redactors to remake ancient myth with a divine message. But the Bible is not all mythology; in fact most of it is an historical record and has been largely validated as such.
The upshot of all of this is that there is no need to argue evolution or the great flood. Evolution is just a scientific understanding of the development of life. It doesn't contradict the true account because we don't have a "true" scientific account. In Genesis, God was not trying to write a science text book. We are not told how life developed after creation. That is a point of concern for science not theology.
How do we know the Bible is the Word of God? Not because it contains big amazing miracle prophecy fulfillments, not because it reveals scientific information which no one could know at the time of writing, but for the simplest of reasons. Because it does what religious literature should do, it is transformative.
Notes
[1]C.G. Jung and Carl Kerenyi, Essays on a Science of MythologyOakton VAL Mythos, 1969.
[2] Gaalya Cornfeld, Archaeology of the Bible Book by Book,New York: Harper & Row, 1976.
This is spot on.
ReplyDeleteA thing I see with this, though, is the belief in the literal seven days of creation. I never understood that, but a lot of Christians believe in that.
I agree the bible is transformative. Many people who actually read it are transformed from believers (who had religion instilled in them from their earliest childhood - before they developed critical thinking) into skeptics.
ReplyDeleteIt was my late twin Ray who pointed out to me that the sun not created until the third day so how did they recon days?
ReplyDeletethat is not treu. no one because am atheist because if stupid biblical contradictions
ReplyDeleteThe contradictions are part of the story. But more than that, is is the disparity between the myth and what we know about reality. In older times, Christians had no problem believing that the myth was true. But these days, it's a little more problematic. How could there be day and night before there was a sun? The believer has to invent ways to explain these disparities. And many just concede that it isn't literal truth. But if so, what parts of it can you accept as truth, and what parts do you reject? Now you have to pick and choose. You have to place some value on the parts that you don't believe, because you still want to say that it's all the word of God. So what is that value? Why would God tell us things that we know aren't true? And what is the real meaning of those things? It seems to me that you have to invent those meanings, or someone else does, and you accept the explanation that they invented.
ReplyDeleteThe atheist sees clearly that the myths were created by people. And that explains the many disparities with reality in those stories. Because we also know that people aren't perfect. It isn't the word of God. It's just a man-made story.
im-skeptical said...
ReplyDeleteThe contradictions are part of the story.
which story? Miracles are not myths
But more than that, is is the disparity between the myth and what we know about reality. In older times, Christians had no problem believing that the myth was true. But these days, it's a little more problematic. How could there be day and night before there was a sun?
That is unimportant, the truth of the Christian faith is not bound up in the factual nature of miracles. BUt doesn't matter if Christians believe in the miracles.Here I am excluding the resurrection,
The believer has to invent ways to explain these disparities. And many just concede that it isn't literal truth. But if so, what parts of it can you accept as truth, and what parts do you reject?
why reject any of it? the parts not true historically still teach lessons.
Now you have to pick and choose. You have to place some value on the parts that you don't believe, because you still want to say that it's all the word of God.
It's not a proposal it's a collection of documents which afford varying degrees of spiritual truth; It's all true it's all there to impart spiritual wisdom.
So what is that value? Why would God tell us things that we know aren't true? And what is the real meaning of those things? It seems to me that you have to invent those meanings, or someone else does, and you accept the explanation that they invented.
You really can't think in any other terms but a big man in the sky. god wrote this for us as a set of rules and you have to follow it[not what I think it's what you think]. Is that is the only way you can think about it?
The atheist sees clearly that the myths were created by people. And that explains the many disparities with reality in those stories. Because we also know that people aren't perfect. It isn't the word of God. It's just a man-made story.
2:08 PM
Skepie, mythology is not a bunch of untrue stories. It's manipulation of archetypes for the purpose of freeing the psyche and enabling one to find one's place in the universe. That is what some atheists say. That's not a christian theory, I documented that in my essay. Carl Jung? remember? So if there is mythology in the bible it would do that too. so it's not a pile of made up stuff. It all comes together to serve a big purpose.
Skep I didn't mean to be critical in answer above. I say"you can't think this way" I did not mean you lack the intellectual capacity. I appreciate your contributions.
ReplyDeleteLet's just stick with the creation story of Genesis, for the moment. That can rightfully be called a myth, as opposed to the New Testament stories of Jesus, which I would regard as more of a (well developed) legend than a myth.
ReplyDeleteOK. So the myth says God divided day from night, but that was before he created the sun. And based on what we know, it is the sun that produces daylight, and the rotation of the earth that produces day and night. So there's something about the myth that disagrees with reality as we know it. The myth says something that isn't true. And I asked you some questions about it: If this is the word of God, what exactly is he telling us? What is the value that you derive from this? Why would God write the story in this particular way? You speak of spiritual truths in a very general way, but you don't tell us what value or truth you derive from that part of the creation story.
Let's just stick with the creation story of Genesis, for the moment. That can rightfully be called a myth, as opposed to the New Testament stories of Jesus, which I would regard as more of a (well developed) legend than a myth.
ReplyDeleteYes I totally agree.
OK. So the myth says God divided day from night, but that was before he created the sun. And based on what we know, it is the sun that produces daylight, and the rotation of the earth that produces day and night. So there's something about the myth that disagrees with reality as we know it. The myth says something that isn't true. And I asked you some questions about it: If this is the word of God, what exactly is he telling us? What is the value that you derive from this? Why would God write the story in this particular way? You speak of spiritual truths in a very general way, but you don't tell us what value or truth you derive from that part of the creation story.
You are right about the day and night thung, That observation was introduced to me by my late twin when in 5th grade. I as astounded, that was the beginning of a huge intellect, his, my brother Ray's. It was the beginning of me going "HU?"
A couple of things need to be sorted out: what is the word of God? In what way is the Bible the word of God? I think I will take that up next week for the main blog spot. I guess I agree with Barth's distinction that the Bible contains the word of God. Secondly, the word of God in the Genesis creation story is not in the details of the narrative but in the point it makes. We can;t just extract the major point and leave out the narrative.The Bible is an artifact we can we can't chop it up.
What are you saying? You can ignore all those pesky details and just focus on the "point"?. But this doesn't answer my question. Why would God, with his infinite knowledge, say something like that? There must be some purpose in the finer points of the narrative. There must be some meaning in those details. Otherwise, he wouldn't have said it. Would he? So what is he telling us?
ReplyDeleteJoe: But in Genesis we find something different. The chaotic creation story of Babylon is ordered and the source of creation is different. Rather than being emerging out of Tiamot (chaos) we find "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Order is imposed.
ReplyDeleteVerse 1:1 is an introduction; it tells us what is about to be described. The creation starts at Genesis 1:2.
Genesis 1:2 And the earth was a [a]formless and desolate emptiness, and darkness was over the [b]surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the [c]surface of the waters. 3 Then God said, “[d]Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness He called “night.” And there was evening and there was morning, one day.
The first thing God actually does by way of creation is create light.
Before that, however, the "waters" already existed. The waters are equivalent to the chaos of Tiamat - and note that Tiamat was associated with water. The two creation myths are closer than you like to think.
Pix
Joe: It was my late twin Ray who pointed out to me that the sun not created until the third day so how did they recon days?
ReplyDeleteBecause they did not understand that all light comes from the sun.
On the first day God created daylight, something different to sunlight. From day one there was night and day.
The sun was added on the fourth day to mark the passage of time.
Genesis 1:14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and they shall serve as signs and for seasons, and for days and years
Pix
skep said:What are you saying? You can ignore all those pesky details and just focus on the "point"?. But this doesn't answer my question. Why would God, with his infinite knowledge, say something like that? There must be some purpose in the finer points of the narrative. There must be some meaning in those details. Otherwise, he wouldn't have said it. Would he? So what is he telling us?
ReplyDeletethat's a good question and it probably has several complex answers, fr on e thing it contains in it the question why does God use a narrative. I admit the narrative is important, But everything can to a general idea. Narrative i more effective it get's ot scfss ina more powerful way,
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteJoe: But in Genesis we find something different. The chaotic creation story of Babylon is ordered and the source of creation is different. Rather than being emerging out of Tiamot (chaos) we find "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Order is imposed.
Verse 1:1 is an introduction; it tells us what is about to be described. The creation starts at Genesis 1:2.
I don't think that contradicts my point.
Genesis 1:2 And the earth was a [a]formless and desolate emptiness, and darkness was over the [b]surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the [c]surface of the waters. 3 Then God said, “[d]Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness He called “night.” And there was evening and there was morning, one day.
The first thing God actually does by way of creation is create light.
Before that, however, the "waters" already existed. The waters are equivalent to the chaos of Tiamat - and note that Tiamat was associated with water. The two creation myths are closer than you like to think.
Pix
but it's not chaos. The pagan version chaos is not just the state it's the source of creation. Not so in Genesis God is the source and God is order.
1:38 AM Delete
Anonymous Anonymous said...
Joe: It was my late twin Ray who pointed out to me that the sun not created until the third day so how did they recon days?
Because they did not understand that all light comes from the sun.That's because it doesn't, It can also come from other stars and fire.
On the first day God created daylight, something different to sunlight. From day one there was night and day.
The sun was added on the fourth day to mark the passage of time.
Genesis 1:14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and they shall serve as signs and for seasons, and for days and years
so?
im-skeptical said: "Why would God, with his infinite knowledge, say something like that? There must be some purpose in the finer points of the narrative. There must be some meaning in those details. Otherwise, he wouldn't have said it. Would he? So what is he telling us?"
ReplyDeleteJohn Walton's book "The Lost World of Genesis One" explores this very question, going back to the mindsets of the Ancient Near East (ANE) and showing that the real idea is that God is creating order out of chaos and that the Earth is being likened to a temple that God is building. The idea of a temple where deity comes near to humanity was central to the whole way of thinking of the ANE. The earth starts out in darkness and is covered in primeval waters: it's "formless and void" in that it has no order, no purpose. So God creates light, then divides light from darkness. God's creation of light is the first step in bringing purpose; the division of light from darkness is the next step in creating order. Each next step continues the progression: an "expanse" to separate heaven from earth (the ancient peoples saw this as a kind of dome in which the sun and moon moved); the separation of land from water, each in its own place; and then the creation of the creatures, crowned by the creation of humanity, to inhabit the "temple" that God has made. The theme of God dwelling with humanity is also central to the whole story of Israel.
The Bible is an ancient book that shows ancient ways of thinking. There is a theological idea called "accommodation" that explains that God chooses to relate to humanity throughout history in ways that humanity can understand. The Bible shouldn't be forced into our modern categories of historical and scientific fact. It's only fundamentalists who insist on trying to turn the Bible into what they think it ought to be, instead of what it actually is.
Joe: but it's not chaos. The pagan version chaos is not just the state it's the source of creation. Not so in Genesis God is the source and God is order.
ReplyDeleteIn both Genesis and the Babylonia creation myth the world was originally chaotic waters and from those chaotic waters a god created the world. The Babylonian account associates those waters with Tiamat, a fearsome dragon, but the Bible has the Leviathan, a likely echo of that same motif via the Ugaritic sea monster, Lotan.
Joe: So?
So the day/night cycle prior to the sun is explained.
Pix
In Genesis the world does not emerge from chaos. In pagan stories Chaos produced the world in Genesis there may have been some Chaos but God ordered it and created the world.
ReplyDelete>>"The Bible shouldn't be forced into our modern categories of historical and scientific fact."
ReplyDeleteThat's fine. But you are admitting that the bible was written by ancient people for ancient people. If it was God himself speaking to all of humanity, I think he could have found a way to explain creation that would ring true for all of us. After all, he's a smart guy. He knows everything, and he was well aware of who would be reading his words in the years to come. As it is, he spoke to bronze-age goat herders, but he failed to address the intellectual needs of the rest of us. He could have done better than that.
IM-skeptical, your argument seems to come down to "If God is real, he should do what I expect him to do." That's fine, but it doesn't hold any water with me. Why should God be exactly as finite humans expect?
ReplyDeleteWhy? Because he (supposedly) loves me and he wants me to believe. But I have a brain that he gave me, and I see no rational justification to believe. I see not the slightest shred of evidence that he knows anything at all about the physical reality of the world we live in. All he knows is what those ancient goat herders believed. Is there anything in the bible that reveals information that wasn't known in those days? No. Nothing. Maybe he could have slipped a word or two into the bible that would provide a hint to us modern folks that he really does know things beyond the ancient knowledge. But alas, there's nothing. Sure, you can tell me that my expectations aren't reasonable. But you are just rationalizing the profound lack of rational justification for belief.
ReplyDeleteIM, I don't think that what God wants is for people to have an intellectual acknowledgment that God exists. Belief is a spiritual matter, and it's more about trust from the heart, than about mental assent. If you are giving your heart to living a life of love and integrity, I believe you're a lot closer to God than you think (literally!) and that God accepts you as you are. I also think that the universe was set up in such a way that humans have to seek, and search, and doubt, and wonder, and that God isn't threatened by that-- God wants it that way.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of myths, you don't need God to have love and integrity. All you need is humanity and respect for your fellow humans, because those things are part of our human heritage. I'm not a scoundrel, and I do seek and search and doubt and wonder. That's what we humans do. I seek the truth, but I try not to abandon reason. Real integrity is going where reason leads, even if you feel you want to go in a different direction - even if you are afraid that knowledge and reason might lead you away from God. But rest assured, there is life and love without God. And when it's over, you don't get another chance to try it again. What a waste it would be to spend your life avoiding an honest quest for truth in the hope that you will finally see it after you're dead. You only get one shot at it.
ReplyDeleteReason? The first principle of Atheism is that it is an intellectual and moral VOID:
ReplyDeleteAtheism Analyzed: Principles of Atheism Part 1
In that VOID, atheists can put their own truth in there. For that reason, it can lead to selfishness and narcissism (I'm not always saying that it does, but it can).
IM, I didn't mean that you "need" God to have love and integrity. Of course humans show love and integrity in many ways, whether they are religious or not. What I meant was something deeper, and I'm not saying you have to accept it-- but if God is love, and if God is the Source of all life and goodness, then anyone walking in love and integrity is moving and flowing in God, because God is where these things come from. It isn't necessary to give intellectual assent to the existence of God to move in and with God. If your reason is leading you (apparently) away from intellectual belief in God, nevertheless staying true to reason, as best you can, is integrity, just as you said-- and therefore, by walking in integrity you are in the flow of God, even if you feel you are moving away from God. That's why theologians sometimes say, "look for the God beyond God." In other words, when in integrity you seem to be moving away from God, what you're really moving away from is a narrow and erroneous idea of God. And it's better to abandon a narrow, limited, ego-oriented, small-minded god, because that isn't really God anyway.
ReplyDelete>> Atheism Analyzed: Principles of Atheism Part 1
ReplyDeleteI've had my discussions with that guy. If God is love, he drank from the wrong cup. He's a small-minded, hateful bigot who doesn't have a clue what atheism really is.
>> "because God is where these things come from"
ReplyDeleteWhat you're saying is that even if we don't believe in God, all the love and integrity and goodness in the world come from God anyway. So without God, there would be nothing good. Therefore, we need God to have love and integrity, even if we don't know it. I say we need humanity. I say Stan, over at Atheism Analyzed, could really use a little dose of it.
im-skeptical said...
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of myths, you don't need God to have love and integrity. All you need is humanity and respect for your fellow humans, because those things are part of our human heritage.
I know that without assent to believe in God in order to have those things. I believe,however, that they are in the human repertoires because we are made in the image of God.
I'm not a scoundrel, and I do seek and search and doubt and wonder. That's what we humans do. I seek the truth, but I try not to abandon reason. Real integrity is going where reason leads, even if you feel you want to go in a different direction - even if you are afraid that knowledge and reason might lead you away from God. But rest assured, there is life and love without God.
Great insight.
And when it's over, you don't get another chance to try it again. What a waste it would be to spend your life avoiding an honest quest for truth in the hope that you will finally see it after you're dead. You only get one shot at it.
Here I think you are selling short, It's not like that, If one pays attention ne learns as we go along.
>> "because we are made in the image of God."
ReplyDeleteThat's what the bible says. But consider this: If it's true, why do we hear arguments that the infinite God is unfathomable to mere humans? How can anybody claim to know anything about God's attributes, or what he wants? And why are we so imperfect if we are made as an image of perfection?
>> "It's not like that, If one pays attention ne learns as we go along."
The idea of life after we die is wishful thinking. This is a key area where faith overrides reason. I have to go by the evidence.
That's not true. There are atheists (like Michael Roll) who 100% disagree with you about life after death, and that it was proven long ago. It's just censored over in the UK in favor of people like Dawkins and the late Christopher Hitchens:
ReplyDeleteCFPF: Four-part paper on Scientific Proof of Life After Death
Scientific proof: The entire scientific community has been turned upside-down. Long-standing scientific theories have been cast aside. The whole framework of scientific understand has collapsed. All the textbooks are being re-written. Many atheist scientists have committed suicide.
ReplyDeleteJAV128: That's not true. There are atheists (like Michael Roll) who 100% disagree with you about life after death, and that it was proven long ago. It's just censored over in the UK in favor of people like Dawkins and the late Christopher Hitchens:
ReplyDeleteThat web site is hilarious. Let me quote a bit:
"We have had the experimental proof of survival after death ever since Sir William Crookes published the results of his experiments in the leading scientific journal of his day - The Quarterly Journal of Science - in 1874. These were repeatable experiments under laboratory conditions. International teams of scientists then repeated the experiments and obtained the same results. People who had once lived on earth came back and proved to these scientific teams that they had conquered death and were still very much alive."
So this was proved a century and a half ago! People who have died are still very much alive! well, they were back then.
The most recent reference is from 1972, a book by someone who, according to the forward, was "suffering from the aftereffects of a major brain operation", and is itself just a review of the nineteenth century work.
How anyone can imagine such tripe is scientific proof is laughable!
Pix
IM-skeptical, I actually go further than that. I say that without God, there would be nothing at all.
ReplyDeleteI can say that without humans, there would be no God.
ReplyDeleteJoe, I don't know how you tolerate Pix and IMS. I understand that you love debate, and don't want an echo chamber (I don't blame you). However, these two are like most atheists: They don't even want to consider any other world views.
ReplyDeleteI see the same thing on Facebook. I don't even try to debate those people. I will share info with them, but that's all.
Oh, and BTW, I think that Skep would be proud to know that Stan wrote a book called Evolution Tested:
Ebay: Evolution Tested
JAB128, Most people don't consider other worldviews unless something happens to cause a crisis of belief. This applies to us theists as well. Jesus ate with people who weren't accepted by his group. He even treated occupying Roman soldiers with tolerance. Should we do less?
ReplyDeleteJAB128: Joe, I don't know how you tolerate Pix and IMS. I understand that you love debate, and don't want an echo chamber (I don't blame you). However, these two are like most atheists: They don't even want to consider any other world views.
ReplyDeleteOkay. Present your argument for spiritualism - the subject of the article you presented and I rejected out of hand - and I promise to consider the evidence.
I feel pretty confident you will not, and instead will tell me to read the book or some other web site. In fact, I would not be surprised if you say that actually you reject spiritualism, despite objecting to my rejection of it.
Pix
Kristen, I know that Jesus ate with sinners. I have no problem with that. However, the Bible also says that you shouldn't cast pearls before swine, and to dust off your feet and move on if they won't accept the gospel.
ReplyDeleteAlso, it's funny that Pix says that, because people like him keep moving the goalposts when evidence is presented:
Debunking Skeptics: Argument #2-Extraordinary Claims Require Extraordinary evidence
Whether either of those teachings of Jesus applies in this situation is certainly a matter of interpretation. This is a blog that Joe set up specifically for the purpose of discussion and friendly debate, not a missionary setting.
ReplyDeleteJab you speak of tolerating Pix and Skep, I have been treated very badky by atheists and very unfairly. Yet Pix never has teated me that way, He has never insulted me he has been a friend, I am not just tolerating him I see him as a friend I feel I owe him loyalty,
ReplyDeleteAs for skep we used to have extreme insult matches, I always figured he was oing it. Then I realized, God showed me, in my pain I was teatimg him badly I decided to change the way I treated him then in response he changed and now I consder him a friend too.
I think these guys are more attracted to the Gospel than they let on or they would not stick around. You have to be patent with people.