Could I request something from any believers here, who have a good relationship with God and who regularly pray to God for guidance and direction and who hear God's voice (no matter how subtle)? Next time that you pray, could you ask God to tell any of the non-believers here something profound? A message from God himself for the non-believers here would be appreciated.He adds:I'm being serious. Not joking. I'm sure this sounds perfectly reasonable to many atheists. It's like a scientific test, what better way to prove that no one is "up there answering prayers?" There are some problems with approach. The irony is I remember an atheist on CARM who had as a signature some quote about "if God revealed himself to me I would not believe my senses." So he's saying even if God revealed himself I wouldn't believe is. So why ask? I know all atheists aren't saying that, but at least for that one guy it's a real pretense to ask questions like this. The major problem is it's a means of circumventing the search in the heart that God has designed belief to be. The search is real imporant becuase it enables us to interlace the values of the good. If God did force his presence upon the world in such a way that no one could doubt many would resent it. the more lib service they felt forced to give the more deeply they would resent it. But those who seek for the truth and find in a leap of faith have a personal commitment of love. It's that existential aspect that people most fear, and this is most necessary to the search; the point whereon realizes the nature of ones own being is that of content upon God. That's the moment of truth, the only choices are get "real" with God in your heart (repent and change) or reject the whole thing and live in pretense telling yourself "i'm a smart tough cool skeptic." Meta: the evidence is he communicated with us. your evidence that he doesn't is just that you haven't open enough to receive it. that is not a disproof. your narrow mindedness is not a disproof of God.
Originally Posted by A Hermit View Post Then you have no reason to expect anyone else to believe, do you?I never said I EXPECT anyone to believe me. I expect people to listen and think about my reasons but so atheist ever do. Atheist:
Those are a rather different order of belief though; I have a mother and brothers and went to school too; on the other hand you're telling me that the almighty, all loving creator of the universe chooses to talk to you, but not to me; or on the other hand that I'm too stupid/ignorant/selfish/small minded/evil/not fully human enough to measure up to your standards when it comes to appreciating the depth and beauty of life because I don't choose to embrace you language for it."talk" here is metaphor right? I didn't say God wont communicate with you. You are decided to ignore and pretend it's unreal the communication that he did do and to close off the possibly of future communication. that's your deal.
atheist Yes you do or you wouldn't work so hard at convincing me and others, or react so strongly to something as innocuous as my last comment...You don't really understand why it's insulting. I'm not out to destroy or damn anyone or anything; just to suggest an alternative point of view. Why does that make you so angry? Originally Posted by Electric Skeptic View Post God is (supposedly) omnipotent. If he tried to communicate to anyone, he would do so. Claims that he tries but fails mean that he is not omnipotent.
If you believe God to be not omnipotent, fine. If you do not, you are contradicting yourself. No, you do not prove God at all.You are makimg a wrong assumption about the natire of omnipotance.I never said I'm provimg God. I said wants you to dearch in your heart. You wantto be overweamed. you don't want to have to think about it.
Meta:
I have discussed in the past the problem with the concept of omnipotence and how it's an anti quested concept. that's become your excuse. the one thing God requires you to do is the one thing you refuse to do.
becuase you refuse to do it your big excuse is "it's God's fault I rejected him because he didn't make it so overwhelming enough I couldn't deny it."
that's an excuse. that's not searching.
"you don't prove God at all!" can't you see what an excuse that is? I say over and over again. Its' not about proof, can't prove it because God is beyond understanding. the battle is in the heart. you have to search in your heart and when God reveals himself that's where he iwll do it."
your answer to all that is "but he didn't do it MY WAY so I'm absolved of all responsibility!"
as long as you refuse to repent and seek God in the heart! there ant gonna be no revelation.
why should the king existence surrender to your terms? YOU surrender! you take his terms! Posted by Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) at 8:54 AM 12 comments: Labels: apologetics, existential search, values of the goohttp://www.blogger.com/img/blank.gifd, why doesn't God just reveal himself? THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 23, 2012
The Divine Mystery isn't threatened by humans' refusal to believe and has no need to prove anything.
ReplyDeleterught on sister!
ReplyDeleteJoseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...
ReplyDeleteThe major problem is it's a means of circumventing the search in the heart that God has designed belief to be.
Other than your belief that this is what God designed belief to be. What do you have to back this up? Seems like an excuse to account for God not showing himself.
You don'r what the essay is about. you can only think in terms of prove it in a way I can't deny anything short of that is no good. You are avoiding the fact that you've never beaten a good argu,emt, No atheist has. I am ready to go any time, That is not the point here,
ReplyDeleteWhy must God be prpven before you risk considering the reality. Lots of important things can't be proven
I wasn't that interested in what the essay is about. I was interested in your statement regarding " the search in the heart that God has designed belief to be."
ReplyDeleteBut" why should the king existence surrender to your terms?". He shouldn't unless he's interested in my knowing him.
In that case I would expect to find the possibility of his existence convincing enough, to me, to my warrant searching.
" the search in the heart that God has designed belief to be."
ReplyDeleteIt's obvious that belief in God is more than a mere intellectual recognition of the fact of God's existence.
But" why should the king existence surrender to your terms?". He shouldn't unless he's interested in my knowing him.
That is petulant and emotional blackmail
In that case I would expect to find the possibility of his existence convincing enough, to me, to my warrant searching.
It probably is.I was an atheist. I know the mind games atheists play with themselves to blow off the many hints we are given,
bIt's obvious that belief in God is more than a mere intellectual recognition of the fact of God's existence.
ReplyDeleteIts ‘obvious’ once you are a believer. It’s obvious when you need to come up with excuses to accommodate the hiddenness of that God. It’s not obvious that belief is a search in the heart that God has designed.
That is petulant and emotional blackmail
It would be petulant and emotional blackmail if I knowingly withholding something in order to receive some reward.
Does God need something from me that I am withholding?
What is petulant about wanting a God to reasonably make his existence knowable?
The petulance seems to be on your part.
It probably is. I was an atheist. I know the mind games atheists play with themselves to blow off the many hints we are given,
It probably is? I was a Christian. I know the games Christians play with to defend their faith.
What many hints are given? The majority of hints believers present just seem to be gaps in our knowledge for which they invoke God.
When you were an atheist did any of the so called hints convince you?
Faith isn't really about knowing at all. Faith says, "I have experienced the unknowable, and the experience has led me to put my trust in it."
ReplyDeleteHi Kristen.
ReplyDeleteLacking any such experience, do you think that you would still have a basis for faith?
Hi Kristen.
ReplyDeleteLacking any such experience, do you think that you would still have a basis for faith?
I was convinced by my friend's testimony before any experience. But I have ha the experiences I've had thats all we can say for sure.
You don't want to know. The usual excuse.
ReplyDeleteGod did stuff in my life. you are hot willing to ever believe that. you don't want to know.
ReplyDeleteWhy would I believe that? I don't know you and I haven't had those experiences. Do you believe all the claims other people make? I believe you have experienced certain things but barring any similar experience, I have no reason to connect them to God.
ReplyDeleteIf you bother to read my first book, The Trace of God, you will see a body of scientific work establishing a body of fact and demonstrating the objective reality of such experiences; and giving reason to believe the cause is a transcendent mind.
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ReplyDeleteI did bother to read your book. I don't doubt the objective reality of such experiences. I do question the ascribing of the origin of those experiences to God. I think the case has yet to be made for the cause being a transcendent mind.
ReplyDelete