Wednesday, November 02, 2022

The Web of Historicity: Everything around Jesus is historical



Most Jesus myther arguments are based upon phony standards that real historians don't use. They expect direct documentation like a birth certificate. They did not have birth cirtificates for rural Jewish pesants in the Gallalee so that is an unrealistic expectation. Using the lack of it as proof that Jesus didn't exist is silly. In the absense of such documentation there are two methods: (1)Demonstarting the historicity of the places and people around Jesus then infurring his existence. (2)Direct attestation by people who knew him or less directly by those who knew people who knew himm. I use both. This article,however, deals with the former. The approach taken is that everything around Jesus, thepeople and places is historical, It's a bog web and Jesusis at thecenter, Why would it be that this web of historicity has as it;s cemteran empty space?

We know that the basic story of the manger and the virgin Mary and Jesus himself circlated in the first century. Early on Jewish Christians passedon these ideas and they can be traced to worship in mystic gratto's of Bethlehem.

For the purposes of worship, the Jewish-Chrsitians of Palestine availed themselves not only of the synagogues, but also developed their ritual in certain 'sacred and mystic grottoes' as reported by the ecclesiastical historian, Eusebius of Caesarea. In Their worship in this "Lord's house" in Bethlehem which was carried on until the fourth century, they celebrated two of three mysteries par excellence: Mary's Virginity and her bringing forth the Christ child; ...Hadrian profaned the site by planting a wood over the grotto, but this helped to maintain the tradition of the birthplace of Jesus."[1]


It could be that these grottos recalled the historical reality in bethlehem or the grotto of bethyleim was merely one of many that fit the image and thus began to taken for the historical site. Either way the biographical knwoeldge of Jesus early days date back to forst cemtiry and emmenate from Bethlehem.

Jesus was born in Betheliem but grew up in Nazerath. Skeptics sometimes claim that Nazareth was not inhabited at the time of Christ. Nothing could be further from the truth. There are a coupole of historical sorces proviimg Nazerath was inhabilted in first century.

Despite the Hellenization of the general region and the probability that Greek was known to many people it seems likely that Nazareth remained a conservative Jewish village. After the Jewish war with the Romans from AD 66-70 it was necessary to re-settle Jewish priests and their families. Such groups would only settle in unmixed towns, that is towns without Gentile inhabitants. According to an inscription discovered in 1962 in Caesarea Maritima the priests of the order of Elkalir made their home in Nazareth. This, by the way, is the sole known reference to Nazareth in antiquity, apart from written Christian sources...Some scholars had even believed that Nazareth was a fictitious invention of the early Christians; the inscription from Caesarea Maritima proves otherwise.[2]


The book of John gives us one example of a historical location i the Gospels.The pool of Bethseda (John 5:14) in Luke where the angle "troubled the waters" for healing, and Jesus healed the lame man and told him to take up his bed and walk, has been discovered beneath the Church of ST. Anne. There is a pool at the bottom of a flight of stairs and an ancient fresco with a picture of an angel troubling the waters. This find is also documented in Cornfeld's work Archaeology of The Bible,[3] where he supports the conclusions.Skeptics argue anyone can put historical placesin a fictinal sotry, Trite andthis ofitoself is not significant evedence. Butis an exampleofthemay historical dleets making up the web.

Luke's geographical Accuracy.

Luke offers many importat hisotircal points. Look hiimselfis deemed a fine historian. Harnack and others attest to Luke's accuracy in terms of the ship wreck on Malta, the flavor and historicity of the cities he speaks of the, the time period and all other verifiable elements of this nature. "Sir William Ramsay who devoted many fruitful years to the Archaeology of Asia Minor testifies to Luke's intimate and accurate acquaintance and the Greek East at the time with which his writings deal."[4]. Ramsay began as a Tubingen liberal, believing Luke to be a second century production with no validity. By the end of his life he was so persuaded of the truth and validity of Luke that he gave up scholarship and became an Evangelist and apologist using arguments based upon the discoveries he had made.[5]. It cannot be claimed that he was not an "objective" scholar, as he is one of the grates of the field. Dr. Henry J. Cadbury delivered the Lowell lectures in 1953 and produced a work on the Book of Acts in which he hailed Luke as a first rate historian [6]. ,,...,3) Luke's Social Accuity. Neil thinks that one of the most impressive aspects of Luke as an historian is that he always gets the titles right. Many of the titles of local officials which Luke provides us with were not validated until modern times. "The writer of Acts knew the correct titles and used them with varying precision. In the words of Ramsey: 'the officials with whom Paul and his companions were brought into contact are those who would be there. Every person is found just where he ought to be; proconsuls in senatorial provinces, asiarchs in Ephesus, strategoi in Philippi, politarchs in Thessolonica, magicians and soothsayers everywhere.' The Most remarkable of these titles is Politarch the ruler of the city used in Acts 17:6...previously this word had been completely unknown except for this passage in Acts. It has now been found in 19 inscriptions dating from he second century..." (Stephen Neil, The Interpretation of the New Testament:1861-1961, London: Oxford University press, 1964, p.143).Neil argues that titles are the hardest things to get right, modern French writers never get English titles right, and this is something that would easily and surely betray an anachronism (147)Historians of the modern day judge Luke a superb historian.

(This makes him a better historian than Tacitus, and if Tacitus getting the title of Pilate wrong is an argument against his veracity, than surely getting them right must mean something) Skeptics argue that the Apostles could have made up the stories of the Gospel despite the fact that they contain historical information. One, on an internet discussion board, even went so far as to compare the Gospels with Ernest Hemingway novels which have fictional plots set in historical settings. Of course Hemingway lived in the places he wrote about. It would be absurd to think of Luke trooping around ancient Palestine just to be abel to add a few verifiable touches to his account, especially in the days before anyone knew about archaeology. When we consider how many forgeries form this era have no historical evidence, or betray themselves with anachronisms, this argument seems to lack substance.

,,,C. Peter's House

"The house was built in the first century, it became a center of religious activity [in Capernium] already in the second half of the first century Jewish-Chrsitians (or Mimin..as they were called) were numerous and lived continuously in Capernium and kept this tradition alive [the site for the house of Peter--which is mentioned in Mark; their graffiti on the plaster wall of the place of worship testify to their faith in Jesus, the Lord, the Most High, the good, and to their veneration of Peter." (Cornfeld p. 288). The house was taken over by Gentile Christians in the 5th century, and then build a splendid basilica. Now of course the skeptic will say "O, they just chose any old spot and said it was the right place for the pilgrims in the middle ages." But Pilgrims did troop to the Holy land as early as the fifth century, however, as Corfeld shows, most of these sites were already old by the fourth century. The tomb, Peter's house, The Bethlehem Grotto, Mary's house in Nazareth, and many other such sites, were already venerated as far back as the first century. While there is no definitive proof that these sites are the actual locations, the evidence is stronger than it seems at first glance.

,,,D. The empty tomb

Archaeology cannot yet identify with certainty the tomb of Christ, but here is strong evidence supporting the Church of the Holy Sepulcher as the original site. The site does date back to the fourth century when it was shown to Constantine. Bruce attests to the evidential support.(New Testament Documents) . More important confirmation comes from Gaalyah Cornfeld in Archaeology of The Bible Book By Book. Cornfeld tells us that from early times Christians reverenced the site, but it was desecrated when the Romans put up a statue of one of their gods. Jewish-Christians could no longer worship at the site for that reason, but they continued the knowledge of it until the time of Constantine when they were able to point him to it as the original site of the resurrection. Constantine put up a basilica over the original shrine, the Anastasis. Excavations by V. Corbo found a gold ring with the representation of the dome of the original shrine Anastasis. This indicates that this site was venerated by Christians in ancient times as the site of the resurrection. (and there is an empty tomb under neither it). (See Archaeology of The Bible: Book by Book, New York: Harper and Row, 1976, 271-2).

Bahat, Dan 1986 "Does the Holy Sepulcher Church Mark the Burial of Jesus?" Biblical Archaeology Review 22.3 (May/June):26-45.

"The fact that it had indeed been a cemetery, and that this memory of Jesus' tomb survived despite Hadrian's burial of it with his enclosure fill, speaks to the authenticity of the site. Moreover, the fact that the Christian community in Jerusalem was never dispersed during this period, and that its succession of bishops was never interrupted supports the accuracy of the preserved memory that Jesus had been crucified and buried here." (Bahat 1986:37.)

All of these studies have a very high probability and while none can be proven conclusively, the evidence is very strong that they were all venerated early on

Notes


[1]Gaalyah Cornfeld, Archaeology of The Bible Book by Book, New York: Harper and Row, 1976,p.2779-280.

[2]Paul Barnett[BSNT], Behind the Scenes of the New Testament, IVP:1990, p.42. I have a whole page on this subject, Nazerath was inhabilited, see this link:http://religiousapriorijesus-bible.blogspot.com/2010/05/nazareth-was-inhabited-in-time-of.html

[3]Cornfeld, Op cit.

[4]F.F.Bruce, The New Testament Documents: Are they Reliable?,Nashville:Eerdmans 1994,90.

[5]Ibid

[6]Ibid

22 comments:

Kristen said...

If Jesus were a myth, why would the story be about him being ignominiously arrested and humiliatingly executed? A story would be much more likely to give him a noble death, in battle or some such, for him to be resurrected from .

JAB128 said...

It's sad that this is out there. Even Mark Passio from whatonearthishappening.com believes in the Jesus Myth crap. He believes in the Piso Family nonsense, and he endorsed Kersey Graves' 16 Crucified Saviors (Infidels and God Hater Richard Carrier wouldn't even endorse that).

Anonymous said...

I agree that Jesus existed, so no real disagreement from me. However...

Joe: We know that the basic story of the manger and the virgin Mary and Jesus himself circlated in the first century. Early on Jewish Christians passedon these ideas and they can be traced to worship in mystic gratto's of Bethlehem.

How do we know that Jewish christians passed on the idea? This seems a very gentile belief to me. The Jews saw Jesus as the messiah, the male-line descendant of David.

Also, what is the evidence for worship "in mystic gratto's of Bethlehem"? I am aware of the temple to Adonis. Why should we think anyone believed Jesus was born on that site before, say AD 400? Your reference cites Eusebius of Caesarea, but even he was writing after about AD 300. And I cannot find any text by Eusebius that supports such a claim.

Joe: Jesus was born in Betheliem but grew up in Nazerath. Skeptics sometimes claim that Nazareth was not inhabited at the time of Christ.

This skeptic is far more dubious of the claim that Jesus was born in Bethlehem.

Pix

Anonymous said...

I think I found the text that Eusebius wrote here.

On page 156 of the PDF, p137 of the book, Eusebius talks about mystic caves, including one at Bethlehem, but I could see nothing to suggest there was worship at the site previous to Constantine.

Pix

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

If Jesus were a myth, why would the story be about him being ignominiously arrested and humiliatingly executed? A story would be much more likely to give him a noble death, in battle or some such, for him to be resurrected from .

8:15
I agree Kristen good point.

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

JAB128 said...
It's sad that this is out there. Even Mark Passio from whatonearthishappening.com believes in the Jesus Myth crap. He believes in the Piso Family nonsense, and he endorsed Kersey Graves' 16 Crucified Saviors (Infidels and God Hater Richard Carrier wouldn't even endorse that).

6:16 AM
Yes it is really stupid we have waste time answering it. That Piso deal is inane.

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

Anonymous Anonymous said...
I think I found the text that Eusebius wrote here.

On page 156 of the PDF, p137 of the book, Eusebius talks about mystic caves, including one at Bethlehem, but I could see nothing to suggest there was worship at the site previous to Constantine.

I've seem that n several sources, The first time I saw it was in a book by Gaalyah Cornfeld,Archeology of the bible book bybool,1977
. a prominent archeologist in the 70's and 80s.

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

Anonymous said...
I agree that Jesus existed, so no real disagreement from me. However...

check

Joe: We know that the basic story of the manger and the virgin Mary and Jesus himself circlated in the first century. Early on Jewish Christians passedon these ideas and they can be traced to worship in mystic gratto's of Bethlehem.

How do we know that Jewish christians passed on the idea? This seems a very gentile belief to me. The Jews saw Jesus as the messiah, the male-line descendant of David.


what is so gentile about it? I've seen stuff saying they use caves for storage, living, meeting.

Also, what is the evidence for worship "in mystic gratto's of Bethlehem"? I am aware of the temple to Adonis. Why should we think anyone believed Jesus was born on that site before, say AD 400? Your reference cites Eusebius of Caesarea, but even he was writing after about AD 300. And I cannot find any text by Eusebius that supports such a claim.

Typical atheist reasoning. the version we have must be the first one,

Joe: Jesus was born in Betheliem but grew up in Nazerath. Skeptics sometimes claim that Nazareth was not inhabited at the time of Christ.

This skeptic is far more dubious of the claim that Jesus was born in Bethlehem.

Either birth in Bethlehem steps on some pet doctrine he has or its' the old doubt anything in the Bible.

Anonymous said...

Joe: I've seem that n several sources, The first time I saw it was in a book by Gaalyah Cornfeld,Archeology of the bible book bybool,1977
. a prominent archeologist in the 70's and 80s.


If Eusebius' text does not say what it, it does not matter how prominent the archeologist is.

Joe: what is so gentile about it? I've seen stuff saying they use caves for storage, living, meeting.

The virgin birth is a gentile embellishment. No Jew would claim that for the messiah, as the messiah had to be a male-line descendant of David.

Joe: Typical atheist reasoning. the version we have must be the first one,

I am not sure what you point is. As far as I can see your claim about there being worship at the supposed site Jesus was born in Bethlehem is based on a text by Eusebius - the text does not actually say that.

Either birth in Bethlehem steps on some pet doctrine he has or its' the old doubt anything in the Bible.

It looks to me like the nativity stories were both made up. The huge disparity between them makes it certain one of the was, and it is not a big leap from realising one was made up to suspecting they both were.

In Mark we read:

Mark 3:20 Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. 21 When his family[b] heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.”​

Is it really plausible that after the events of the nativity - angels appearing to both Mary and Joseph, wise men arriving, the virgin birth itself - that when Jesus started to preach and heal his family would think him mad? Of course not! The simple fact is that there were no angels, no virgin birth. Until he was baptised, Jesus was just an ordinary man, and hence, when he started his ministry, his family thought this was very much out of character; that “He is out of his mind.”

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

Anonymous said...
Joe: I've seem that n several sources, The first time I saw it was in a book by Gaalyah Cornfeld,Archeology of the bible book bybool,1977
. a prominent archeologist in the 70's and 80s.

If Eusebius' text does not say what it, it does not matter how prominent the archeologist is.

Joe: what is so gentile about it? I've seen stuff saying they use caves for storage, living, meeting.

The virgin birth is a gentile embellishment. No Jew would claim that for the messiah, as the messiah had to be a male-line descendant of David.

He had that via joseph they could not take that away without accepting the virginal conception, That would not have been an issue

Joe: Typical atheist reasoning. the version we have must be the first one,

I am not sure what you point is. As far as I can see your claim about there being worship at the supposed site Jesus was born in Bethlehem is based on a text by Eusebius - the text does not actually say that.

NO, Jewish Christian sources

me: Either birth in Bethlehem steps on some pet doctrine he has or its' the old doubt anything in the Bible.

It looks to me like the nativity stories were both made up. The huge disparity between them makes it certain one of the was, and it is not a big leap from realising one was made up to suspecting they both were.

that is just doubt the bible regardless of evidence

In Mark we read:

Mark 3:20 Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. 21 When his family[b] heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.”​

Is it really plausible that after the events of the nativity - angels appearing to both Mary and Joseph, wise men arriving, the virgin birth itself - that when Jesus started to preach and heal his family would think him mad? Of course not! The simple fact is that there were no angels, no virgin birth. Until he was baptised, Jesus was just an ordinary man, and hence, when he started his ministry, his family thought this was very much out of character; that “He is out of his mind.”

None of his siblings saw those things they heard about them all just assumed they were nuts. I have heard of that. Claiming himself God was a real departure from, what was expected.

Anonymous said...

Joe: He had that via joseph they could not take that away without accepting the virginal conception, That would not have been an issue

I do not understand what you are saying he. Of course he had the genealogy via Joseph. How did they explain that Jesus was both the son of Joseph and not the son of Joseph?

Joe: NO, Jewish Christian sources

Not according to the text you quote:

For the purposes of worship, the Jewish-Chrsitians of Palestine availed themselves not only of the synagogues, but also developed their ritual in certain 'sacred and mystic grottoes' as reported by the ecclesiastical historian, Eusebius of Caesarea.

Joe: that is just doubt the bible regardless of evidence

No, Joe, doubt founded on good reason. It is a fact that the two nativity stories are wildly different.

Joe: None of his siblings saw those things they heard about them all just assumed they were nuts. I have heard of that. Claiming himself God was a real departure from, what was expected.

So you are claiming Mary was not around to see her own son, given to her by God, preaching his message? What happened to her?

And this miraculous birth had no later impact on the family, they never talked about it? No one in the community ever mentioned it? Remember that they supposedly got given gold; that alone would have had a huge impact on the family.

Pix

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

Anonymous said...
Joe: He had that via joseph they could not take that away without accepting the virginal conception, That would not have been an issue

I do not understand what you are saying he. Of course he had the genealogy via Joseph. How did they explain that Jesus was both the son of Joseph and not the son of Joseph?

Jo adopted him. That gives him legal access to Jo's linage and the rewards that come with it But his physicals origin was still a miracles.

Joe: NO, Jewish Christian sources

Not according to the text you quote:

For the purposes of worship, the Jewish-Chrsitians of Palestine availed themselves not only of the synagogues, but also developed their ritual in certain 'sacred and mystic grottoes' as reported by the ecclesiastical historian, Eusebius of Caesarea.

that is one source it does not say the only source. You have not read Cornfeld

Joe: that is just doubt the bible regardless of evidence

No, Joe, doubt founded on good reason. It is a fact that the two nativity stories are wildly different.

Polarized retelling does not prove fiction

Joe: None of his siblings saw those things they heard about them all just assumed they were nuts. I have heard of that. Claiming himself God was a real departure from, what was expected.

So you are claiming Mary was not around to see her own son, given to her by God, preaching his message? What happened to her?

No I a, saying the kids thought Mom is babyaling about the angels again.

And this miraculous birth had no later impact on the family, they never talked about it? No one in the community ever mentioned it? Remember that they supposedly got given gold; that alone would have had a huge impact on the family.

I've seen thus several times, families the parent is regarded by the church (Pentecostal),as a prophet and by the kids as a crackpot.

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

also the amble did not ay he would call himself god. hat would tear for them,

Anonymous said...

Jo adopted him. That gives him legal access to Jo's linage and the rewards that come with it But his physicals origin was still a miracles.

Legal acces, yes, but was that anough for messiahship? Was Jesus of the seed of David if he was merely adopted? I cannot see the Jews accepting that.

that is one source it does not say the only source. You have not read Cornfeld

No I have not read Cornfield. What is his source? I find it telling that you do not say.

Polarized retelling does not prove fiction

Great spin, but they are far more divergent than that.

Joe: I've seen thus several times, families the parent is regarded by the church (Pentecostal),as a prophet and by the kids as a crackpot.

How many times have you seen it where the parents were visited by angels, and still thought their kid was a crackpot?

Joe: also the amble did not ay he would call himself god. hat would tear for them,

When did Jesus do that? It is in John, but that gospel was written much later, after ideas about Jesus had developed. Jesus never says that in the earlier gospels.

Pix

Anonymous said...

Joe: All four are using the Pre Mark redaction so they all have historical aspects. The idea that the first one written is all historical and nothing of the others are is foolish.

As far as I can see the above is the only new bit of your comment. Are you unable to find anything by Cornfield that supports your position?

It is generally accepted that all four gospels draw on a pre-Markan passion narrative - but that narrative covered only the passion. I am not aware of any claims of a pre-Mark document that included the nativity - and the fact that Mark omits the nativity and Luke and Matthew have wildly different nativities makes that extremely unlikely.

Joe: .... The idea that the first one written is all historical and nothing of the others are is foolish.

Agreed! Considering Mark to be entirely historical is indeed foolish.

There was about 40 years between the crucifixion and Mark. To suppose it could not contain unsubstantiated rumours would indeed be foolish. But also to imagine there were stories circulating in the community about Jesus that were true but that the author had not heard is also so foolish.

For example, if there really was a guard on the tomb, and this was known to the community, how could Mark not have heard about that in forty years in that community?

Pix

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

Anonymous said...
Joe: All four are using the Pre Mark redaction so they all have historical aspects. The idea that the first one written is all historical and nothing of the others are is foolish.

As far as I can see the above is the only new bit of your comment. Are you unable to find anything by Cornfield that supports your position?

Koster, Cornfeld doesn't talk about PMR because he's an archeologist.

It is generally accepted that all four gospels draw on a pre-Markan passion narrative - but that narrative covered only the passion.

wrong, Koester talks about that

I am not aware of any claims of a pre-Mark document that included the nativity - and the fact that Mark omits the nativity and Luke and Matthew have wildly different nativities makes that extremely unlikely.

Koester says despite the name it included more it does not have to include the nativity to include more than the passion.

Joe: .... The idea that the first one written is all historical and nothing of the others are is foolish.

Agreed! Considering Mark to be entirely historical is indeed foolish.
amen man

There was about 40 years between the crucifixion and Mark. To suppose it could not contain unsubstantiated rumours would indeed be foolish.

It's also irrelevant

But also to imagine there were stories circulating in the community about Jesus that were true but that the author had not heard is also so foolish.

where did I say that?

[how could Mark nit hear of guards on the tomb?]

argument from silence is not proof. Not mentioning doesn't mean not hearing,

F2Andy said...

Joe: Koster, Cornfeld doesn't talk about PMR because he's an archeologist.

We are talking about Jewish Christians revering the supposed site in Bethlehem where Jesus was both. You claim Cornfield has a better source than Eusebius, but I see nothing here to make me think you have a clue what we are even talking about.

Joe: wrong, Koester talks about that

It is called the "Pre-Markan Passion Narrative" because it is a narrative of the passion.

Joe: Koester says despite the name it included more it does not have to include the nativity to include more than the passion.

Not as far as I recall. Can you quote him saying that?

Joe: where did I say that?

That is the implication of your position. Anything in the three later gospels, if they were true, must have been known to the Christian community. The community was pretty small at first, few dozen people living in one place.

It is not credible to suppose the guard on the tomb, for example, actually happened, but the author of Mark had not heard about it.

Pix

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

Joe: Koster, Cornfeld doesn't talk about PMR because he's an archeologist.


Px We are talking about Jewish Christians revering the supposed site in Bethlehem where Jesus was both. You claim Cornfield has a better source than Eusebius, but I see nothing here to make me think you have a clue what we are even talking about.



I don't think I said better. However, Cornfeld has Eusebius and others source Eusebius didn't know about. Other Jews/Christian sects an2000 years of research

Joe: wrong, Koester talks about that

It is called the "Pre-Markan Passion Narrative" because it is a narrative of the passion

Joe: Koester says despite the name it included more it does not have to include the nativity to include more than the passion.

Not as far as I recall. Can you quote him saying that?

I know he says it I think i even quoted it to you on Cadre. I don't have access to the book now

Joe: where did I say that?

That is the implication of your position. Anything in the three later gospels, if they were true, must have been known to the Christian community. The community was pretty small at first, few dozen people living in one place.

wrong, It was not small very long and we are talking about Jewish Christian sexts not all the early christians there is a distinction.



px> It is not credible to suppose the guard on the tomb, for example, actually happened, but the author of Mark had not heard about it.

aaaaaaaaggggggggainnnnnnnn, not talking about is not the same as n;t knowing it, It was not an issue my Mark's time,

Anonymous said...

Joe: I don't think I said better. However, Cornfeld has Eusebius and others source Eusebius didn't know about. Other Jews/Christian sects an2000 years of research

Like what? You have cited Cornfeld three times now, but with nothing to substantiate that. Exactly what did he say? What are his sources?

And why did you not cite him in your post, but instead chose to cite someone using Eusebius as a source when you admit that was a poor source?

Joe: I know he says it I think i even quoted it to you on Cadre. I don't have access to the book now

Fortunately I do. Section 3.2.3.2 is about the passion narrative, pages 220 to 230. It starts with Jesus trial.

Joe: wrong, It was not small very long and we are talking about Jewish Christian sexts not all the early christians there is a distinction.

I am talking about the first twenty years, or even the first 5 if we say Marrk was actually the author. If he was there during those first five years, he will have held ALL the stories of the sightings of the risen Jesus. It is not credible to suppose there were witnesses not in the community or that were witnesses in the community who kept an aspect of it secret.

Joe: aaaaaaaaggggggggainnnnnnnn, not talking about is not the same as n;t knowing it, It was not an issue my Mark's time,

Still, the more likely explanation is he did not include it because it had not been made up yes. Was it an issue in Luke's time? Of course, that was after Matthew. But the story was made up in a different community so Luke never heard about it.

Pix

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

Anonymous said...

Joe I don't think I said better. However, Cornfeld has Eusebius and others source Eusebius didn't know about. Other Jews/Christian sects an2000 years of research

PX Like what? You have cited Cornfeld three times now, but with nothing to substantiate that. Exactly what did he say? What are his sources?

the issue is worshipping in secret Gratows, Cornfeld says they did based upon modern archeologist and ancient Jewish christians. think Eusebius agrres. I don't consider that a major point.




pxAnd why did you not cite him in your post,

He's fn no 1: "We know that the basic story of the manger and the virgin Mary and Jesus himself circlated in the first century. Early on Jewish Christians passedon these ideas and they can be traced to worship in mystic gratto's of Bethlehem.

==For the purposes of worship, the Jewish-Chrsitians of Palestine availed themselves not only of the synagogues, but also developed their ritual in certain 'sacred and mystic grottoes' as reported by the ecclesiastical historian, Eusebius of Caesarea. In Their worship in this "Lord's house" in Bethlehem which was carried on until the fourth century, they celebrated two of three mysteries par excellence: Mary's Virginity and her bringing forth the Christ child; ...Hadrian profaned the site by planting a wood over the grotto, but this helped to maintain the tradition of the birthplace of Jesus."[1] Archaeology of Bible book by book 1979.


but instead chose to cite someone using Eusebius as a source when you admit that was a poor source?

That was Cornfeld where did I say it was poor? I said Eysebius is a poor source relatove to people who were there.

Joe: I know he says it I think i even quoted it to you on Cadre. I don't have access to the book now

pxFortunately I do. Section 3.2.3.2 is about the passion narrative, pages 220 to 230. It starts with Jesus trial.

Koester said what modern scholars call PN is more than just stuff about the Passion,


Joe: wrong, It was not small very long and we are talking about Jewish Christian sexts not all the early christians there is a distinction.

I am talking about the first twenty years, or even the first 5 if we say Marrk was actually the author. If he was there during those first five years, he will have held ALL the stories of the sightings of the risen Jesus. It is not credible to suppose there were witnesses not in the community or that were witnesses in the community who kept an aspect of it secret.

that is ridiculous. He hd ni reason to cateouge everytynghe knew in that one spot.

Joe: aaaaaaaaggggggggainnnnnnnn, not talking about is not the same as n;t knowing it, It was not an issue my Mark's time,

Still, the more likely explanation is he did not include it because it had not been made up yes. Was it an issue in Luke's time? Of course, that was after Matthew. But the story was made up in a different community so Luke never heard about it.

That's what we in iberal arts call a bias. the only plausable reason you can find backs your argument/ We ar5 talkimg abuit God
s pn the To,b We know GPET uses a seperatre tradition not based upon canonicals and traces to Pre Mar, more like reaspn is 50 years latter no one argued about the Guards.


Anonymous said...

Joe: He's fn no 1: "We know that the basic story of the manger and the virgin Mary and Jesus himself circlated in the first century. Early on Jewish Christians passedon these ideas and they can be traced to worship in mystic gratto's of Bethlehem.

Okay, I messed up here. When you previously said "I've seem that n several sources, The first time I saw it was in a book by Gaalyah Cornfeld,Archeology of the bible book bybool,1977. a prominent archeologist in the 70's and 80s." I understood to mean Cornfeld was another in addition to ref 1. I now see that actually that is ref 1. Apologies if my posts have consequently been confusing!

Joe: the issue is worshipping in secret Gratows, Cornfeld says they did based upon modern archeologist and ancient Jewish christians. think Eusebius agrres. I don't consider that a major point.

But you claimed: "We know that the basic story of the manger and the virgin Mary and Jesus himself circlated in the first century. Early on Jewish Christians passedon these ideas and they can be traced to worship in mystic gratto's of Bethlehem." I find that very doubtful, as I said at the start.

Joe: ==For the purposes of worship, the Jewish-Chrsitians of Palestine availed themselves not only of the synagogues, but also developed their ritual in certain 'sacred and mystic grottoes' as reported by the ecclesiastical historian, Eusebius of Caesarea. In Their worship in this "Lord's house" in Bethlehem which was carried on until the fourth century, they celebrated two of three mysteries par excellence: Mary's Virginity and her bringing forth the Christ child; ...Hadrian profaned the site by planting a wood over the grotto, but this helped to maintain the tradition of the birthplace of Jesus."[1] Archaeology of Bible book by book 1979.

The problem is that Eusebius says nothing to support this claim.

Joe: That was Cornfeld where did I say it was poor?

Sorry, that was my misunderstanding, as noted at the top.

Joe: I said Eysebius is a poor source relatove to people who were there.

Eusebius is a poor source because he does not say anything to suggest Jewish Christians were worshiping in a grotto in Bethlehem or had any clue about the basic story of the manger and the virgin Mary.

Pix

Anonymous said...

Joe: Koester said what modern scholars call PN is more than just stuff about the Passion,

I think you are getting confused. He said there were other documents; they would have more than just stuff about the Passion.

Joe: that is ridiculous. He hd ni reason to cateouge everytynghe knew in that one spot.

Mark's text is brief, so for the guard on the tomb, that is plausible, but not Luke and John, who cover it in detail.

For Mark, the big issue is why does the text suggest he knew nothing of the Jerusalem appearances of Jesus on that first Easter.

Joe: That's what we in iberal arts call a bias. the only plausable reason you can find backs your argument/ We ar5 talkimg abuit God
s pn the To,b We know GPET uses a seperatre tradition not based upon canonicals and traces to Pre Mar, more like reaspn is 50 years latter no one argued about the Guards.


And yet Raymond Brown - who made his early reputation on the Gospel of Peter - says:

After working through the table and lists above (...), I am convinced that one explanation makes better sense of the relationship between GPet and the canonicals than any other. I doubt the author of GPet had any written Gospel before him, although he was familiar with Matt because he read it carefully in the past and/or had heard it read several times in community worship on the Lord's Day, so that it gave the dominant shaping to his thought. Most likely he had heard people speak who were familiar with the Gospels of Luke and John...
- Brown, The Death of the Messiah vol 2, p 1334-5

And more specifically on the guard on the tomb:

Yet there is a major argument against historicity that is impressive indeed. Not only do the other Gospels not mention the guard at the sepulcher, but the presence of the guard there would make what they relate about the tomb almost unintelligible.
- Brown, The Death of the Messiah vol 2, p 1311-2

Pix