My original statement: "religion is justified on its own terms."
Pix: If your argument is right, then the belief that Thor controls thunder "is justified on its own terms". Do you really think that is the case?
Me: Only if you have a comic book understanding of religion. You think religion is a big bully boy in the clouds and you better do what he says then know nothing about religion. My statement boils down to there is ultimate transformative experience that resolves the issue in the human problematic and gives meaning to existence. One such example of this transformative experience is the feeling of utter dependence. That feeling justifies the need to resolve the problematic.
Atheists tend to see religion as competing strong men. They are always justopossimg individual deities against each other, Like in man's post human ampliofied the most powerful people and projected them imto skay riding status and that's all religion can ever be for atheists. Meanwhile thinking religious people moved on.
What follows is a statement I wrote so long ago the name Metacrock still seemed new. The statement was part of my page on Biblical revelation so it analyzes the religious a priori in terms of the Bible and specifically questions of the historicity of the Bible. I think it does expand the meaning of my statement about the point of religion.
All religions seek to do three things.
All religions seek to do three things:
a) to identify the human problematic,
b) to identify an ultimate transformative experience (UTE) which resolves the
problematic, and
c) to mediate between the two.
But not all religions are equal. All are relative to the truth but not all are equal. Some mediate the UTE better than others, or in a more accessible way than others. Given the foregoing, my criteria are that:
1) a religious tradition reflects a human problematic which is meaningful in terms of what we find in the world.
2) the UTE be found to really resolve the problematic
.
3) it mediates the UTE in such a way as to be effective and accessible.
4) its putative and crucial historical claims be historically probable given the ontological and epistemological assumptions that are required within the inner logic of that belief system.
5) it be consistent with itself and with the external world in a way that touches these factors.
These mean that I am not interested in piddling Biblical contradictions such as how many women went to the tomb, ect. but in terms of the major claims of the faith as they touch the human problematic and its resolution.
How Does the Bible fulfill these criteria? First, what is the Bible? Is it a rule book? Is it a manual of discipline? Is it a science textbook? A history book? No it is none of these. The Bible, the Canon, the NT in particular, is a means of bestowing Grace. What does that mean? It means first, it is not an epistemology! It is not a method of knowing how we know, nor is it a history book. It is a means of coming into contact with the UTE mentioned above. This means that the primary thing it has to do to demonstrate its veracity is not be accurate historically, although it is that in the main; but rather, its task is to connect one to the depository of truth in the teachings of Jesus such that one is made open to the ultimate transformative experience. Thus the main thing the Bible has to do to fulfill these criteria is to communicate this transformation. This can only be judged phenomenologically. It is not a matter of proving that the events are true, although there are ensconces where that becomes important.
Thus the main problem is not the existence of these piddling so-called contradictions (and my experience is 90% of them stem from not knowing how to read a text), but rather the extent to which the world and life stack up to the picture presented as a fallen world, engaged in the human problematic and transformed by the light of Christ. Now that means that the extent to which the problematic is adequately reflected, that being sin, separation from God, meaninglessness, the wages of sin, the dregs of life, and so forth, vs. the saving power of God's grace to transform life and change the direction in which one lives to face God and to hope and future. This is something that cannot be decided by the historical aspects or by any objective account. It is merely the individual's problem to understand and to experience. That is the nature of what religion does and the extent to which Christianity does it more accessibly and more efficaciously is the extent to which it should be seen as valid.
The efficacy is not an objective issue either, but the fact that only a couple of religions in the world share the concept of Grace should be a clue. No other religion (save Pure Land Buddhism) have this notion. For all the others there is a problem of one's own efforts. The Grace mediates and administrates through Scriptures is experienced in the life of the believer, and can be found also in prayer, in the sacraments and so forth.
Where the historical questions should enter into it are where the mediation of the UTE hedges upon these historical aspects. Obviously the existence of Jesus of Nazareth would be one, his death on the cross another. The Resurrection of course, doctrinally is also crucial, but since that cannot be established in an empirical sense, seeing as no historical question can be, we must use historical probability. That is not blunted by the minor discrepancies in the number of women at the tomb or who got there first. That sort of thinking is to think in terms of a video documentary. We expect the NT to have the sort of accuracy we find in a court room because we are moderns and we watch too much television. The number of women and when they got to the tomb etc. does not have a bearing on whether the tomb actually existed, was guarded and was found empty. Nor does it really change the fact that people claimed to have seen Jesus after his death alive and well and ascending into heaven. We can view the different strands of NT witness as separate sources, since they were not written as one book, but by different authors at different times and brought together later.
The historicity of the NT is a logical assumption given the nature of the works. We can expect that the Gospels will be polemical. We do not need to assume, however, that they will be fabricated from whole cloth. They are the product of the communities that redacted them. That is viewed as a fatal weakness in fundamentalist circles, tantamount to saying that they are lies. But that is silly. In reality there is no particular reason why the community cannot be a witness. The differences in the accounts are produced by either the ordering of periscopes to underscore various theological points or the use of witnesses who fanned out through the various communities and whose individual view points make up the variety of the text. This is not to be confused with contradiction simply because it reflects differences in individual's view points and distracts us from the more important points of agreement; the tomb was empty, the Lord was seen risen, there were people who put their hands in his nail prints, etc.
The overall question about Biblical contradiction goes back to the basic nature of the text. What sort of text is it? Is it a Sunday school book? A science textbook? A history book? And how does inspiration work? The question about the nature of inspiration is the most crucial. This is because the basic notion of the fundamentalists is that of verbal plenary inspiration. If we assume that this is the only sort of inspiration then we have a problem. One mistake and verbal plenary inspiration is out the window. The assumption that every verse is inspired and every word is true comes not from the Church fathers or from the Christian tradition. It actually starts with Humanists in the Renaissance and finds its final development in the 19th century with people like J. N. Drably and Warfield. (see, Avery Dulles Models of Revelation).
One of my major reasons for rejecting this model of revelation is because it is not true to the nature of transformation. Verbal plenary inspiration assumes that God uses authors like we use pencils or like businessmen use secretaries, to take dictation (that is). But why should we assume that this is the only form of inspiration? Only because we have been conditioned by American Christianity to assume that this must be the case. This comes from the Reformation's tendency to see the Bible as epistemology rather than as a means of bestowing grace (see William Abraham, Canon and Criterion). Why should be approach the text with this kind of baggage? We should approach it, not assuming that Moses et al. were fundamentalist preachers, but that they experienced God in their lives through the transformative power of the Spirit and that their writings and readings are a reflection of this experience. That is more in keeping with the nature of religion as we find it around the world. That being the case, we should have no problem with finding that mythology of Babylonian and Suzerain cultures are used in Genesis, with the view toward standing them on their heads, or that some passages are idealized history that reflect a nationalistic agenda. But the experiences of God come through in the text in spite of these problems because the text itself, when viewed in dialectical relation between reader and text (Barth/Dulles) does bestow grace and does enable transformation.
After all the Biblical texts were not written as "The Bible" but were compiled from a huge voluminous body of works which were accepted as scripture or as "holy books" for quite some time before they were collected and put in a single list and even longer before they were printed as one book: the Bible. Therefore, that this book may contradict itself on some points is of no consequence. Rather than reflecting dictation, or literal writing as though the author was merely a pencil in the hands of God, what they really reflect is the record of people's experiences of God in their lives and the way in which those experiences suggested their choice of material/redaction. In short, inspiration of scripture is a product of the transformation afore mentioned. It is the verbalization of inner-experience which mediates grace, and in turn it mediates grace itself.
The Bible is not the Perfect Revelation of God to humanity. Jesus is that perfect revelation. The Gospels are merely the record of Jesus' teachings, deposited with the communities and encoded for safe keeping in the list chosen through Apostolic backing to assure Christian identity. For that matter the Bible as a whole is a reflection of the experience of transformation and as such, since it was the product of human agents we can expect it to have human flaws. The extent to which those flaws are negligible can be judge the ability of that deposit of truth to adequately promote transformation. Christ authorizes the Apostles, the Apostles authorize the community, the community authorizes the tradition, and the tradition authorizes the canon.
You very much miss the point here. Here is the original exchange.
ReplyDeleteJoe: religion is justified on its own terms.
Pix: If your argument is right, then the belief that Thor controls thunder "is justified on its own terms". Do you really think that is the case?
If your claim that "religion is justified on its own terms" is true, then all religious claims are justified on their own terms. The claim that Thor controls thunder is a religious claim. If your statement here is true, then it must follow that the claim about Thor is justified on its own terms.
Do you think that that is the case?
Here is your response:
Joe: Only if you have a comic book understanding of religion. You think religion is a big bully boy in the clouds and you better do what he says then know nothing about religion. My statement boils down to there is ultimate transformative experience that resolves the issue in the human problematic and gives meaning to existence. One such example of this transformative experience is the feeling of utter dependence. That feeling justifies the need to resolve the problematic.
I take that as a "no". You think that the claim that Thor controls thunder is NOT justified on its own terms.
To me, that contradicts what you claimed earlier when you said "religion is justified on its own terms". Why are some religious claims justified on their own terms, but not others?
Joe: ... My statement boils down to there is ultimate transformative experience that resolves the issue in the human problematic and gives meaning to existence. ...
And that is the problem. You said religion is justified on its own terms, when you meant something else altogether.
Pix
You very much miss the point here. Here is the original exchange.
ReplyDeleteJoe: religion is justified on its own terms.
Pix: If your argument is right, then the belief that Thor controls thunder "is justified on its own terms". Do you really think that is the case?
If your claim that "religion is justified on its own terms" is true, then all religious claims are justified on their own terms. The claim that Thor controls thunder is a religious claim. If your statement here is true, then it must follow that the claim about Thor is justified on its own terms.
Do you think that that is the case?
Here is your response:
Joe: Only if you have a comic book understanding of religion. You think religion is a big bully boy in the clouds and you better do what he says then know nothing about religion. My statement boils down to there is ultimate transformative experience that resolves the issue in the human problematic and gives meaning to existence. One such example of this transformative experience is the feeling of utter dependence. That feeling justifies the need to resolve the problematic.
I take that as a "no". You think that the claim that Thor controls thunder is NOT justified on its own terms.
Religion being justified on it own terms does not mean anything one believes is true just because one believes it. It means the truth of religion as a whole has to be jugged by issues related to existentialism not science.
To me, that contradicts what you claimed earlier when you said "religion is justified on its own terms". Why are some religious claims justified on their own terms, but not others?
Because the original statement did not mean all religious tenets are true just because they are believed. It has nothing to do with individual tenets.
Joe: My statement boils down to there is ultimate transformative experience that resolves the issue in the human problematic and gives meaning to existence. ...
And that is the problem. You said religion is justified on its own terms, when you meant something else altogether.
Nit at al. Religion is an existential philosphy. It is about the same things that existentialism is about: freedom and meaning and value. Those are the standards that it must be judged by. because what religion is about is existial. it's about the meaning of one's life.
Joe: Religion being justified on it own terms does not mean anything one believes is true just because one believes it. It means the truth of religion as a whole has to be jugged by issues related to existentialism not science.
ReplyDeleteRight, so your "Argument From the Religious a Priori" is that the truth of religion as a whole has to be judged by issues related to existentialism not science.
Not actually an argument at all.
Joe: Nit at al. Religion is an existential philosphy. It is about the same things that existentialism is about: freedom and meaning and value. Those are the standards that it must be judged by. because what religion is about is existial. it's about the meaning of one's life.
So we should judge a religion by how much freedom it gives us? Or much freedom it takes away - i.e., how many rules it forces on us?
Consider Hinduism, as a religion we both reject. How are you measuring the freedom and meaning and value of it? I am curious what your standard is here.
My suspicion is that you are using Christianity as your standard. You were raised in a Christian culture with Christian values and meaning, and you are looking for the religion that best conforms to that. I wonder which that will be..?
Pix
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteJoe: Religion being justified on it own terms does not mean anything one believes is true just because one believes it. It means the truth of religion as a whole has to be jugged by issues related to existentialism not science.
Right, so your "Argument From the Religious a Priori" is that the truth of religion as a whole has to be judged by issues related to existentialism not science.
I said it's justified on its own terms not that the only valid arguments are in this one vain.
Not actually an argument at all.
I am not making an argument for the existence of God. I am discussing the validity of religion,
Joe: Nit at al. Religion is an existential philosphy. It is about the same things that existentialism is about: freedom and meaning and value. Those are the standards that it must be judged by. because what religion is about is existial. it's about the meaning of one's life.
So we should judge a religion by how much freedom it gives us? Or much freedom it takes away - i.e., how many rules it forces on us?
I am not talking about the truth of a particular religion I am talking about religion as a whole. try to follow along,
Consider Hinduism, as a religion we both reject. How are you measuring the freedom and meaning and value of it? I am curious what your standard is here.
It is part of religion as a whole and thus valid to that extent,
My suspicion is that you are using Christianity as your standard. You were raised in a Christian culture with Christian values and meaning, and you are looking for the religion that best conforms to that. I wonder which that will be..?
So what? Since I'm talking about religion as a whole what difference does it make? Hinduism is not true in specific terms but it is valid as a religion.
Joe: I said it's justified on its own terms not that the only valid arguments are in this one vain.
ReplyDeleteRight. And saying something is justified on its own terms is not an argument of itself.
Joe: I am not making an argument for the existence of God. I am discussing the validity of religion,
How is religion valid without God? To put it another way, if God did not exist, would your argument have any merit?
Joe: I am not talking about the truth of a particular religion I am talking about religion as a whole. try to follow along,
Okay, but you said "freedom and meaning and value. Those are the standards that it must be judged by." How does religion fare when we judge it with regards to freedom? Are you claiming that if it gives us more freedom then that indicates "religion as a whole" is valid? Or are you claiming that if it curtails freedom it indicates that?
You explicitly said we have to judge it by the standard of freedom, but I have no idea what that actually means.
Frankly, I do not think you do either.
Pix: Consider Hinduism, as a religion we both reject. How are you measuring the freedom and meaning and value of it? I am curious what your standard is here.
Joe: It is part of religion as a whole and thus valid to that extent,
But your reply makes no reference to freedom and meaning and value! You previously stated that those are the standards to judge it against, and yet here you are clearly failing to do that.
Again, it looks to me like you do not know what you are talking about.
Joe: So what? Since I'm talking about religion as a whole what difference does it make?
The point is that you are carefully sculpting out a Christianity-shaped hole, and having done so will note with glee how well Christianity just happens to fit that hole, and conclude it must be true. It is called confirmation bias.
Joe: So what? Since I'm talking about religion as a whole what difference does it make? Hinduism is not true in specific terms but it is valid as a religion.
That pretty much invalidates everything you say. When you claim something that is not true is "valid as a religion" you are admitting that whether or not the religion is true is not relevant to the discussion.
Pix
Joe: a) to identify the human problematic
ReplyDeleteWhat is the human problematic as identified by Christianity?
Have you outlined this somewhere on your blog?