Pages
▼
Sunday, September 25, 2022
How Do we Know Which Parts of the Bible are Inspired?
On a message board an atheist named Magus asks me:
Quote: Which parts of the bible are the "true" word of god, if any? Do you believe that the bible is only a reflection of the way that the people who wrote it or do you believe god wanted it to turn out the way it did? If you believe some parts come from god and other do not, how do you determine which is which? Of course I heard these kinds of questions all the time.
Quote: Which parts of the bible are the "true" word of god, if any?
Not a matter of Parts. You can't dissect a narrative line by line and ask "what parts of this narrative are the result of the writer's genius and what parts are just banal filler?" You can criticize different aspects of course, but you can't say 'this sentence is genius and this sentence is not a product of genius." The whole narrative works together to create a solid word. Narratives communicate in many subtle ways. you can't limit the number of insights one can deduce from a work of art.
Fundamentalists look at the Bible in a certain way and atheists look at it in reaction the fundamentalist way. The basic assumption is made by both that the text of the Bible is, from the "In the Beginning" of Genesis to the "even so come quickly Lord Jesus" of Revelation as words transmitted from God to the mind of the authors. As though Moses sits down, takes pen in hand and a light shines on him and a voice in his head says (in a booming echo like way) "write write write, this is it...."In in in The the their beginning beginning beginning...." I don't think it works that way. I am willing to understand that when the prophets say "this is what the Lord says" they may be repeating word for word the exact verbiage God gave them to say, although not necessarily. But for most of the Bible I doubt that it works that way. I think people were just using the ideas that came to them as a result of their religious experiences, and as a result they used those concepts and feelings in the different ways that it occurred to them to use such material. They put their ideas of God into the stories and those who had real experiences really captured the nature of God's grace, and those who did not genuinely experience God failed to capture such things.
The real problem is the model. The model of the fundies says that God is writing a memo. The Bible is the word form "the Big man upstairs" and just like an executive writing a memo. Moses is taking dictation. But that model assumes directly handed down verbiage, it's even called "verbal plenary" meaning "all the verbiage is inspired." That's NOT the model I use. I go by a model that views the Bible as a collection of writings which are based upon human encounters with the divine. People experience God in different ways, usually beyond words; to speak about that they must call up from the deep recesses of their spirits (minds) that intangible part that produces art and literature, and they formulate into words their experiences. That means they have to load the experience into cultural constructs.
A cultural construct is an idea that is suggested by culture, by association with other people in society and the symbols and analogies and metaphors that tacitly speak to us at a level we understand but can't necessarily articulate. In the ancient world life was cheap, people were used to thinking in terms of either wiping out the other guy or being wiped out. The ancient Hebrews magnified their culture, but a romanticized view of themselves and their struggles into narrative form and used that framework to express the wordless sense of the numinous that they experienced through contact with God. The tendency to want to wipe out other people, to destroy totally every trace of their existence and lives, is part of the cultural constructs which act as a lens to give words to the writer's deep and hidden senses of God communicated through wordless sensations on the mystical level. So they build into the narrative a bunch of stuff about wiping these guys and those guys but what we need to understand is the major point being made.
For example, in the bit about the Amalekites, I'm pretty sure the bit about the infants is added in latter. I think we see real evdience in the text that it's been tweaked. But the real point is not wipe out the Amalekites nor is it that it's ok for us to wipe our enemies, the real point is to obey God. Saul didn't obey God and the incident was a downfall for him. Now it doesn't matter that the incident is this failure to wipe out the infants it could have been anything. They wrote it like that. The real point is do whatever God tells you to do. But that God is not going to tell us to wipe out our enemies and destroy their kids is pretty obvious to most of us. We can defend that description well enough to say "God did not command this." We can even put it up to religious experience. My experiences of God tells me God doesn't want this. But why did the author of that part of the Bible (presumably Samuel) think that God did tell him that? Because he's filtering the experience through his cultural constructs.
Now you might ask "but then how can we learn moral truths? Our moral understanding is not static. Our understanding evolves over time. The ancient Hebrews could not understand this was wrong because it was common place in their day. We understand the wrong of it because culture evolves. Jesus understood it was wrong. Jesus did not say "wipe out the Amalekites" he said "turn the other cheek." He even corrected the understanding of the OT generations when he said "you have heard it said an eye a tooth for a tooth, but I say to you turn the other cheek." With the Bible we do not proof text. We don't determine what to do by one verse. We use the preponderance of the evidence, meaning everything we can understand about the Bible. We don't stop there, we study and understand what others have said about it. We use the words of the saints and the great theologians as precedents and benchmarks to help us interpret. Samuel was not speaking with authority for all time in telling that story. He was not merely telling a story he heard he was putting down on paper a tradition (probably the real author was writing from Babylon in the exile--that's the most heavily redacted part of the Bible). He was putting into the work his understanding of God from his experiences as well what he had been taught. But the end result is a narrative and like all narratives it only works to accomplish its task when we try to understand it as a narrative and not force it into molds where it doesn't fit such as memo from the boss, military communique, or auto owner's manual.
It doesn't make sense to say "this is inspired and this isn't." That would be like saying "which feet of Elliot's The Wasteland are inspired and which aren't. You can't segment things in that way. We need to understand the bible as literature. It's major function is to bestow grace upon the reader. you read it to be healed to find spiritual edification and to understand God's laws. There are those who think it should be read like an instruction Manuel for a car. They seem to think it's going to tell us ever move to make in the same way that the owner's Manual tells us how to change the oil. Since the Bible is a collection of different works written over a long period of time it doesn't make sense to try and fit the whole collection into one model and understand it all in the same way.
We don't have to underst and exactly the role of inspiration nor do we need to look for the inspired parts as opposed to the banal parts. What we need to do is understand the over all preponderance of teaching and weigh that in light of what God shows us in our own lives. When we do this grace is bestowed, we are healed, we are drawn closer to God but we do not have to relate to it as if we are reading the instructions to change the oil in the car.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0982408765 God, Science, and Ideology by Joseph Hinman is a very important book. Hinman was a PhD candidate in the UT system, his field was history of ideas and he studied the history and philosophy of science. He brings this knowledge to the critique of athye8ist ideology on the internet. Hinman summarizes 20years of arguments with atheist apologist and takes down some of the major atheists figures such as Richard Dawkins,
Well said. Have you read any of Peter Enns' books? I highly recommend The Sin of Certainty and a number of other works of his.
ReplyDeleteJoe: For example, in the bit about the Amalekites, I'm pretty sure the bit about the infants is added in latter. I think we see real evdience in the text that it's been tweaked. But the real point is not wipe out the Amalekites nor is it that it's ok for us to wipe our enemies, the real point is to obey God. Saul didn't obey God and the incident was a downfall for him. Now it doesn't matter that the incident is this failure to wipe out the infants it could have been anything. They wrote it like that. The real point is do whatever God tells you to do. But that God is not going to tell us to wipe out our enemies and destroy their kids is pretty obvious to most of us.
ReplyDeleteMaybe Saul was convinced it was not really an instruction from God because he thought "that God is not going to tell us to wipe out our enemies and destroy their kids is pretty obvious to most of us".
Pix
hey Kristen I have not read Enns but I will check him out.
ReplyDeleteMaybe Saul was convinced it was not really an instruction from God because he thought "that God is not going to tell us to wipe out our enemies and destroy their kids is pretty obvious to most of us".
ReplyDeleteNo. He had no compunction about wiping out the culture and most of its people. If the rest of the narrative about Saul is accurate he wouldn't think that way.
you make an excellent point Kristen. God must be humoring us and waiting for us to move down the revolutionary road as he did with them. Do you use that view to answer the charge of geodic against the Amalekites?
ReplyDeleteJoe: you make an excellent point Kristen. God must be humoring us and waiting for us to move down the revolutionary road as he did with them. Do you use that view to answer the charge of geodic against the Amalekites?
ReplyDeleteWhy did God not tell us what is right from the start?
Pix
Why didn't he tell the ancient Hebrews how to drive a car? why don't we teach newborns how to do their taxes?
ReplyDeleteJoe, it's complicated. The oral tradition probably included war with the Amelekites, but the text was mostly written down during or after the Babylon Exile, as I'm sure you know. At that point they may have been thinking that their ancestors should have killed all the other tribes, but there's very little archeological evidence that they actually did. At the time of the actual events, what was God telling them, and what did they just think God was telling them? At the time of the Exile, what did the scribes think God should have been telling them, that they should have done?
ReplyDeletePix, I believe in "accommodation" -- the doctrine that the infinite God, having finite humans to work with, gave them as much revelation as they could receive, but only on their own level. I believe the Bible is inspired, but not in the way fundamentalists think of it. Part of how it's inspired is by showing the reader the way people in the deep past thought about God, to inform our spiritual development now.
Joe: Why didn't he tell the ancient Hebrews how to drive a car?
ReplyDeleteDriving a car is not a moral instruction and also there were no cars back then.
That is quite different to genocide!
Joe: why don't we teach newborns how to do their taxes?
Can you explain what the relevance is here? Are you saying the people back then were so stupid it would be like trying to teach a baby to do tax returns?
Pix
Kristen: Pix, I believe in "accommodation" -- the doctrine that the infinite God, having finite humans to work with, gave them as much revelation as they could receive, but only on their own level. I believe the Bible is inspired, but not in the way fundamentalists think of it. Part of how it's inspired is by showing the reader the way people in the deep past thought about God, to inform our spiritual development now.
ReplyDeleteI suspect this is what Joe was heading to with his baby analogy. But why were the people of the past like that? Why was their mindset so localised?
As an atheist, I would say that they knew no better, but if God is real, then God was there to teach them better right from the start.
You raise your kids to be good people by giving them moral instructions from the start. You do not leave them to it, and hope they have worked it out by the time they are fifty.
As you say, the genocides probably never happened, but we could as easily focus on slavery, which the OT condones. Why did God not state from the outset that slavery is wrong?
Pix
Can you explain what the relevance is here? Are you saying the people back then were so stupid it would be like trying to teach a baby to do tax returns?
ReplyDeleteYou teach people things on a level they can understand, this is why he didn't tell the ancient Israelites, "slavery is evil do away with slavery."
You teach them love your neighbor as yourself. then if they do that they will see eventually why slavery is wrong, it's not loving as you love yourself.
"Why did God not state from the outset that slavery is wrong?"
ReplyDeleteThis seems to be based in the idea, "If there really were a God, that God would do what I (as a 21st-century Western, educated thinker) would expect God to do."
But what if it's not so simple as "just teach them slavery is wrong"? What if humanity at that point in its development wasn't ready for that concept? After all, in the ancient Middle East, they didn't approach morality from our Western standpoint of "right and wrong," but from an "honor and shame" mindset.
From the way things look to me, God seems to have a minimal-interference policy when it comes to the natural development of the Creation. God pokes here and nudges there, but doesn't overwhelm or override. And in spiritual communication/interaction with us, it's all about accommodation-- not about imposing ideas on us that we're unready to assimilate.
To use the analogy to children -- sure, you teach them, but in infancy, you can't teach them much of anything except that they're loved. In toddlerhood, it's tough enough just to get as far as "don't bite your sister" and share your toys." "Slavery is wrong" doesn't come till they can understand what slavery even is. The analogy isn't perfect, but humanity is surely growing and developing-- not just the individual humans within it.
Joe: You just contradicted the point you made. It has to come progressively and it did.
ReplyDeleteWhy does it have to come progressively? The prohibition against murder and theft did not. The requirement to love God did not.
Joe: wrong. you can't give all moral instruction in one go. You have to deal with life as it comes. God does teach basic reality in the OT but he also deals with what comes and people learned as they progressed.
Why? Go read Leviticus, it has a shed load of rules. There is no reason at all God could not have included "do not keep slaves".
Joe: The OT does not condone slavery.
It specifically states that chattel slavery (of gentiles) is allowed, when it should say it is prohibited.
Joe: It was too deeply engrained to moralize about in that day. It doesn't oppose it doesn't support it. no passage says slavery is good. It's just a fact of life in that culture.
Why was it a fact of life? Why was it deeply ingrained? Because God failed to stop it from the start. Why is that? Well, because he does not really exist.
Pix
Kristen: This seems to be based in the idea, "If there really were a God, that God would do what I (as a 21st-century Western, educated thinker) would expect God to do."
ReplyDeleteSure. That does not make it wrong.
Kristen: But what if it's not so simple as "just teach them slavery is wrong"? What if humanity at that point in its development wasn't ready for that concept?
What does that actually mean? Are you saying they were too stupid to understand?
What do you think is difficult about the concept of slavery being wrong?
Kristen: After all, in the ancient Middle East, they didn't approach morality from our Western standpoint of "right and wrong," but from an "honor and shame" mindset.
Are you saying that slavery is fine from their standpoint?
Kristen: From the way things look to me, God seems to have a minimal-interference policy when it comes to the natural development of the Creation. God pokes here and nudges there, but doesn't overwhelm or override. And in spiritual communication/interaction with us, it's all about accommodation-- not about imposing ideas on us that we're unready to assimilate.
Have you read Leviticus?
Kristen: To use the analogy to children -- sure, you teach them, but in infancy, you can't teach them much of anything except that they're loved. In toddlerhood, it's tough enough just to get as far as "don't bite your sister" and share your toys." "Slavery is wrong" doesn't come till they can understand what slavery even is. The analogy isn't perfect, but humanity is surely growing and developing-- not just the individual humans within it.
To use the analogy to children, you first tell your kids what not to do, such as bite their sister, then you get to the tricky bits about why you should not bite your sister.
You appear to be saying that we have to teach children the why first, and then can tell them to stop biting.
Pix
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteJoe: You just contradicted the point you made. It has to come progressively and it did.
Why does it have to come progressively? The prohibition against murder and theft did not. The requirement to love God did not.
Murder was always frowned upon. There was no culture based upon murder. they did have culture and economy based upon slavery. Obviously it's easier for people to get that murder is wrong,
Joe: wrong. you can't give all moral instruction in one go. You have to deal with life as it comes. God does teach basic reality in the OT but he also deals with what comes and people learned as they progressed.
Why? Go read Leviticus, it has a shed load of rules. There is no reason at all God could not have included "do not keep slaves".
It's not a matter of how many rules. You want people to grow beyond rule keeping to became a civilization. Doesn't happen overnight,
Joe: The OT does not condone slavery.
It specifically states that chattel slavery (of gentiles) is allowed, when it should say it is prohibited.
Allowed doesn't mean favored. Allowed temporarily because society will outgrow it. In NT Paul ranks slave traders with chief of sinners.
Joe: It was too deeply engrained to moralize about in that day. It doesn't oppose it doesn't support it. no passage says slavery is good. It's just a fact of life in that culture.
Pix: Why was it a fact of life? Why was it deeply ingrained? Because God failed to stop it from the start. Why is that? Well, because he does not really exist.
Probably very privative people didn't bath much, why did God not make them bath more? he must like dirty people. You have to bring people along the level they are ready for. Why did God not tell ancient Israel we are going to the moon just as soon as I show you how to make cars?
11:35 PM
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
Kristen: This seems to be based in the idea, "If there really were a God, that God would do what I (as a 21st-century Western, educated thinker) would expect God to do."
pix: Sure. That does not make it wrong.
Yea it does
Kristen: But what if it's not so simple as "just teach them slavery is wrong"? What if humanity at that point in its development wasn't ready for that concept?
What does that actually mean? Are you saying they were too stupid to understand?
they are not the only ones
Pix: What do you think is difficult about the concept of slavery being wrong?
Kristen: After all, in the ancient Middle East, they didn't approach morality from our Western standpoint of "right and wrong," but from an "honor and shame" mindset.
Pix:Are you saying that slavery is fine from their standpoint?
of course, it was what they knew. they had no concept of democracy the individual or individual freedom,
Kristen: From the way things look to me, God seems to have a minimal-interference policy when it comes to the natural development of the Creation. God pokes here and nudges there, but doesn't overwhelm or override. And in spiritual communication/interaction with us, it's all about accommodation-- not about imposing ideas on us that we're unready to assimilate.
Pix: Have you read Leviticus?
That's my whole point you seem to be admitting to it. they had a conceptual threshold you could not push them over all the time, you had to bring them along,
Kristen: To use the analogy to children -- sure, you teach them, but in infancy, you can't teach them much of anything except that they're loved. In toddlerhood, it's tough enough just to get as far as "don't bite your sister" and share your toys." "Slavery is wrong" doesn't come till they can understand what slavery even is. The analogy isn't perfect, but humanity is surely growing and developing-- not just the individual humans within it.
Pix??To use the analogy to children, you first tell your kids what not to do, such as bite their sister, then you get to the tricky bits about why you should not bite your sister.
Pix:You appear to be saying that we have to teach children the why first, and then can tell them to stop biting.
Yes Children and Englishmen,
Joe: Murder was always frowned upon. There was no culture based upon murder. they did have culture and economy based upon slavery. Obviously it's easier for people to get that murder is wrong,
ReplyDeleteGot to admit you surprised me there. I assumed you would think we got that murder is wrong from God.
Joe: It's not a matter of how many rules. You want people to grow beyond rule keeping to became a civilization. Doesn't happen overnight,
Which is why you need a rule to prohibit slavery in the interim.
Joe: Allowed doesn't mean favored. Allowed temporarily because society will outgrow it. In NT Paul ranks slave traders with chief of sinners.
Condone does not mean favoured either, so looks like I was on the point there.
Your "temporarily" is thousands of years.
Joe: Probably very privative people didn't bath much, why did God not make them bath more? he must like dirty people. You have to bring people along the level they are ready for. Why did God not tell ancient Israel we are going to the moon just as soon as I show you how to make cars?
No, you have to prevent suffering.
Surely that is at the heart of morality? Murder is wrong because of the suffering it causes. Rape is wrong because of the suffering it causes. Slavery is wrong because of the suffering it causes.
By the same token, God failing to tell people slavery is prohibited is wrong because of the suffering that causes.
And to be clear, not bathing and failing to tell people about going to the moon is not going to cause suffering, while telling them they are allowed to keep chattel slaves very much is.
Joe: Yea it does
Explain the reasoning. You appear to be saying that if there is something that I (as a 21st-century Western, educated thinker) would expect God to do, then it is necessarily the case that god would NOT do that. I think God should say murder is wrong.
Joe: of course, it was what they knew. they had no concept of democracy the individual or individual freedom,
Again, you surprise. My view is that slavery is morally wrong, regardless of your culture. It is surprising to hear a Christian openly say morality depends on culture. Would you say gasing Jews was morally acceptable in Nazi culture?
Joe: That's my whole point you seem to be admitting to it. they had a conceptual threshold you could not push them over all the time, you had to bring them along,
I am not sure what you are saying here. Leviticus has a shed load of rules in it that people were expected to follow, regardless of whether they made sense or not. Prohibiting slavery in there would have been a good thing to do. Allowing slave was morally bad.
It is as simple as that.
Pix
Kristen: This seems to be based in the idea, "If there really were a God, that God would do what I (as a 21st-century Western, educated thinker) would expect God to do."
ReplyDeletePix: Sure. That does not make it wrong.
It makes it short-sighted. What about what the people in the Ancient Near East would expect a god to do? What if from God's perspective, what you're expecting God to have done back then was simply impracticable? What if from the perspective of another century from now, someone were to say, "I can't believe you thought God should be X!"
Kristen: But what if it's not so simple as "just teach them slavery is wrong"? What if humanity at that point in its development wasn't ready for that concept?
Pix: What does that actually mean? Are you saying they were too stupid to understand?
Pix: What do you think is difficult about the concept of slavery being wrong?
We evolved from ape-like beings, and chimpanzees are among our closest relatives. Chimps are very, very tribal. They take care of their own tribe, and fight with other chimps who aren't in their tribe. Even now, we consistently observe tribalism even in modern humans. What if God said, "Don't enslave people," and their response was, "Sure, God, we won't. But those humans over there aren't people, so we can enslave them." Suppose that they simply weren't ready to accept the concept that all human beings should be considered people?
Kristen: After all, in the ancient Middle East, they didn't approach morality from our Western standpoint of "right and wrong," but from an "honor and shame" mindset.
Pix: Are you saying that slavery is fine from their standpoint?
No, I'm saying that morality is a thing that grows and changes, as human perspectives widen and grow.
Kristen: From the way things look to me, God seems to have a minimal-interference policy when it comes to the natural development of the Creation. God pokes here and nudges there, but doesn't overwhelm or override. And in spiritual communication/interaction with us, it's all about accommodation-- not about imposing ideas on us that we're unready to assimilate.
Pix: Have you read Leviticus?
Are you expecting me to read the Bible like a fundamentalist does? Atheists are usually glad to point out that the codes in Leviticus are quite similar to the codes of other ANE surrounding cultures. This is supposed to be a good reason to consider the Bible not to be inspired. It is certainly accurate to think that the Hebrews followed general thought at the time, in the creation of their codes. But there are subtle differences, and some of them can certainly be interpreted as a poke or a nudge from One who is moving a people gradually towards a wider mindset about who is "one of us," but with generally minimal interference.
Pix: So you think God lost the argument? Or avoided it in the first place because he was afraid he would lose?
ReplyDeleteUm, I think God didn't argue because God knew the humans wouldn't get it. God being "afraid he would lose" is a very anthropomorphic vision of God.
Pix: Why did he not tell them that the humans over there ARE people too? Unfortunately, he seems to have done the reverse and done his best to teach the ancient Israelites that they were different, they were special.
There are unusual things in the Hebrew law that point that direction. "Treat the stranger who comes to dwell with you just like one of yourselves." Things to get their minds working in that direction. "All the nations of the world will be blessed through you." As for being special, I think God was working, then as now, in every culture. This is the one that became a big part of our Western history, largely because of Jesus and his teachings. So it's the one we know.
Pix: What if it had happened as you describe... Would the world not be better than if he explicitly said chattel slavery is NOT allowed? Even if that saved just one black man from slavery in pre-bellum America, that would be a good thing.
I'm trying to imagine the way these small, warring tribes thought about things. Other tribes around them were often trying to enslave and kill them. When you fought another tribe, even in defense of your own land, you either killed or took their members prisoner, or you were killed or taken prisoner yourself. If you freed your prisoners, they would go back to their tribe and increase the numbers that would come against you next time. It would be good if God had not allowed chattel slavery. Would Israel have survived with such a command in place? I don't know. I'm not an anthropologist.
Pix: Just to be clear, do you mean morality itself changes, or our perception of it? I am suspecting the latter (and would agree).
ReplyDeleteYes, our perception of it changes as we widen our understanding and perspective.
Pix: My point was that God has apparently no problem with handing out law after law, many of them on frankly trivial issue, which would seem to refute your claim "it's all about accommodation-- not about imposing ideas on us that we're unready to assimilate."
And my point was that I don't think God dictated all these laws from on high to Moses. I think most of the laws came from the laws that other cultures around them had, which they adopted because it's what they already knew. Many of the laws were about ritual purity, which is something very hard for us in modern times to understand-- but it was often purity, not morality, which drove their sense of right and wrong. And none of the laws were written down in their present form until the Exile. So was God "handing out law after law"? It seems more that God was tweaking what they already had, leading them gradually towards a higher purpose.