Thursday, April 14, 2022

The Argument of the Religious a priori



back to my roots in existentialism

Argument:

(1) Scineitifc reductionism loses phenomena by re-defining the nature of sense data and quailia.

(2)There are other ways of Knowing than scinetific induction

(3) Religious truth is apprehended phenomenoloigcally, thus religion is not a scientific issue and cannot be subjected to a materialist critque

(4) Religion is not derived from other disciplines or endeavors but is a approch to understanding in its own right

(5)Therefore, religious belief is justified on its own terms and not according to the dictates or other disciplines

In my dealings with atheists in debate and dialogue I find that they are often very committed to an empiricist view point. Over and over again I hear the refrain "you can't show one single unequivocal demonstration of scientific data that proves a God exists." This is not a criticism. It's perfectly understandable; science has become the umpire of reality. It is to scientific demonstration that we appear for a large swath of questions concerning the nature of reality. The problem is that the reliance upon empiricism has led to forgetfulness about the basis of other types of questions. We have forgotten that essentially science is metaphysics, as such it is just one of many approachs that can be derived from analytical reasoning, empiricism, rationalism, phenomonology and other approaches.

Problem with Empiricism

Is empirical evidence the best or only true form of knowledge? This is an apologetics question because it bears upon the arguments for the existence of God.

Is lack of empirical evidence, if there is a lack, a draw back for God arguments? I deny that there is a lack, but it has to be put in the proper context. That will come in future threads, for this one I will bracket that answer and just assume there no really good empirical evidence (even though I think there is).

I will ague that empiricism is not true source of knowledge by itself and logic is more important.

True empirical evidence in a philosophical sense means exact first hand observation. In science it doesn't really mean that, it implies a more truncated process. Consider this, we drop two balls of different size from a tower. Do they fall the same rate or the bigger one falls faster? They are supposed to fall at the same rate, right? To say we have empirical proof, in the litteral sense of the term we would have to observe every single time two balls are dropped for as long as the tower exists. We would have to sit for thousnds of years and observe millions of drops and then we couldn't say it was truely empirical because we might have missed one.

That's impractical for science so we cheat with inductive reasoning. We make assumptions of probability. We say we observed this 40,000 times, that's a tight correlation, so we will assume there is a regularity in the universe that causes it to work this way every time. We make a statistical correlation. Like the surgeon general saying that smoking causes cancer. The tobacco companies were really right, they read their Hume, there was no observation of cause and effect, because we never observe cause and effect. But the correlation was so tight we assume cause and effect.

The ultimate example is Hume's billiard balls. Hume says we do not see the cause of the ball being made to move, we only really see one ball stop and the other start. But this happens every time we watch, so we assume that the tight corrolation gives us causality.

The naturalistic metaphysician assumes that all of nature works this way. A tight correlation is as good as a cause. So when we observe only naturalistic causes at work we can assume there is nothing beyond naturalism. The problem is many phenomena can fall between the cracks. One might go one's whole life never seeing a miraculous event, but that doesn't mean someone else doesn't observe such things. All the atheist can say is "I have never seen this" but I can say "I have." Yet the atheist lives in a construct that is made up of his assumptions about naturslitic c/e and excluding anyting that challenges it. That is just like Kuhns paradigm shift. The challenges are absorbed into the paradigm untl there are so many the paradigm has to shit. This may never happen in naturalism.

So this constructed view of the world that is made out of assumption and probabilities misses a lot of experience that people do have that contradicts the paradigm of naturalism. The thing is, to make that construct they must use logic. After all what they are doing in making the correlation is merely inductive reasoning. Inductive reasoning has to play off of deductive reasoning to even make sense.

Ultimately then, "empiricism" as construed by naturalist (inductive probabalistic assumtions building constructs to form a world view) is inadquate because it is merely a contsuct and rules out a prori much that contradicts.

The A priori

God is not given directly in sense data, God transcends the threshold of human understanding, and thus is not given amenable to empirical proof. As I have commented in previous essays (on blogs) religion is not a scientific question. There are other methodologies that must be used to understand religion, since the topic is essentially inter-subjective (and science thrives upon objective data). We can study religious behavior through empirical means and we can compare all sorts of statistical realizations through comparisons of differing religious experiences, behaviors, and options. But we cannot produce a trace of God in the universe through "objective" scientific means. Here I use the term "trace" in the Derision sense, the "track," "footprint" the thing to follow to put us on the scent. As I have stated in previous essays, what we must do is find the "co-detemrinate," the thing that is left by God like footprints in the snow. The trace of God can be found in God's affects upon the human heart, and that shows up objectively, or inter-subjectvely in changed behavior, changed attitudes, life transformations. This is the basis of the mystical argument that I use, and in a sense it also has a bearing upon my religious instinxt argument. But here I wish to present another view of the trace of God. This could be seen as a co-detmiernate perhaps, more importantly, it frees religion from the structures of having to measure up to a scientific standard of proof: the religious a prori.

Definition of the a priori.

"This notion [Religious a priori] is used by philosophers of religion to express the view that the sense of the Divine is due to a special form of awareness which exists along side the cognitive, moral, and aesthetic forms of awareness and is not explicable by reference to them. The concept of religion as concerned with the awareness of and response to the divine is accordingly a simple notion which cannot be defined by reference other than itself." --David Pailin "Religious a pariori" Westminster Dictionary of Chrisian Theology (498)

The religious a priroi deals with the speicial nature of religion as non-derivative of any other discipline, and especially it's speicial reiigious faculty of understanding which transcends ordinary means of understanding. Since the enlightenment atheist have sought to explain away religion by placing it in relative and discardable terms. The major tactic for accomplishing this strategy was use of the sociological theory of structural functionalism. By this assumption religion was chalked up to some relative and passing social function, such as promoting loyalty to the tribe, or teaching morality for the sake of social cohesion. This way religion was explained naturalistically and it was also set in relative terms because these functions in society, while still viable (since religion is still around) could always pass away. But this viewpoint assumes that religion is derivative of some other discipline; it's primitive failed science, concocted to explain what thunder is for example. Religion is an emotional solace to get people through hard times and make sense of death and destruction (it's all sin, fallen world et). But the a priori does away with all that. The a priori says religion is its own thing, it is not failed primitive science, nor is it merely a crutch for surviving or making sense of the world (although it can be that) it is also its own discipline; the major impetus for religion is the sense of the numinous, not the need for explanations of the natural world. Anthropologists are coming more and more to discord that nineteenth century approach anyway.

Thomas A Indianopolus:prof of Religion at of Miami U. of Ohio.

Cross currents Magazine

It is the experience of the transcendent, including the human response to that experience, that creates faith, or more precisely the life of faith. [Huston] Smith seems to regard human beings as having a propensity for faith, so that one speaks of their faith as "innate." In his analysis, faith and transcendence are more accurate descriptions of the lives of religious human beings than conventional uses of the word, religion. The reason for this has to do with the distinction between participant and observer. This is a fundamental distinction for Smith, separating religious people (the participants) from the detached, so-called objective students of religious people (the observers). Smith's argument is that religious persons do not ordinarily have "a religion." The word, religion, comes into usage not as the participant's word but as the observer's word, one that focuses on observable doctrines, institutions, ceremonies, and other practices. By contrast, faith is about the nonobservable, life-shaping vision of transcendence held by a participant..."
The Skeptic might argue "if religion has this unique form of consciousness that sets it apart form other forms of understanding, why does it have to be taught?" Obviously religious belief is taught through culture, and there is a good reason for that, because religion is a cultural construct. But that does not diminish the reality of God. Culture teaches religion but God is known to people in the heart. This comes through a variety of ways; through direct experience, through miraculous signs, through intuitive sense, or through a sense of the numinous. The Westminster's Dictionary of Christian Theology ..defines Numinous as "the sense of awe in attracting and repelling people to the Holy." Of course the background assumption I make is, as I have said many times, that God is apprehended by us mystically--beyond word, thought, or image--we must encode that understanding by filtering it through our cultural constrcts, which creates religious differences, and religious problems.

The Culturally constructed nature of religion does not negate the a priori. "Even though the forms by Which religion is expressed are culturally conditioned, religion itself is sui generis .. essentially irreducible to and undeceivable from the non-religious." (Paladin). Nor can the a priori be reduced to some other form of endeavor. It cannot be summed up by the use of ethics or any other field, it cannot be reduced to explanation of the world or to other fields, or physiological counter causality. To propose such scientific analysis, except in terms of measuring or documenting effects upon behavior, would yield fruitless results. Such results might be taken as proof of no validity, but this would be a mistake. No scientific control can ever be established, because any study would only be studying the culturally constructed bits (by definition since language and social sciences are cultural constructs as well) so all the social sciences will wind up doing is merely reifying the phenomena and reducing the experience. In other words, This idea can never be studied in a social sciences sense, all that the social sciences can do is redefine the phenomena until they are no longer discussing the actual experiences of the religious believer, but merely the ideology of the social scientist (see my essay on Thomas S. Kuhn.

The attempt of skeptics to apply counter causality, that is, to show that the a priori phenomena is the result of naturalistic forces and not miraculous or divine, not only misses the boat in its assumptions about the nature of the argument, but it also loses the phenomena by reduction to some other phenomena. It misses the boat because it assumes that the reason for the phenomena is the claim of miraculous origin, “I feel the presence of God because God is miraculously giving me this sense of his presence.” While some may say that, it need not be the believers argument. The real argument is simply that the co-determinates are signs of the trace of God in the universe, not because we cant understand them being produced naturalistically, but because they evoke the sense of numinous and draw us to God. The numinous implies something beyond the natural, but it need not be “a miracle.” The sense of the numinous is actually a natural thing, it is part of our apprehension of the world, but it points to the sublime, which in turn points to transcendence. In other words, the attribution of counter causality does not, in and of itself, destroy the argument, while it is the life transformation through the experience that is truly the argument, not the phenomena itself. Its the affects upon the believer of the sense of Gods presence and not the sense of Gods presence that truly indicates the trance of God.

Moreover, the attempts to reduce the causality to something less than the miraculous also lose the phenomena in reification.William James, The Verieties of Religious Experience (The Gilford Lectures):

Medical materialism seems indeed a good appellation for the too simple-minded system of thought which we are considering. Medical materialism finishes up Saint Paul by calling his vision on the road to Damascus a discharging lesion of the occipital cortex, he being an epileptic. It snuffs out Saint Teresa as an hysteric, Saint Francis of Assisi as an hereditary degenerate. George Fox's discontent with the shams of his age, and his pining for spiritual veracity, it treats as a symptom of a disordered colon. Carlyle's organ-tones of misery it accounts for by a gastro-duodenal catarrh. All such mental over-tensions, it says, are, when you come to the bottom of the matter, mere affairs of diathesis (auto-intoxications most probably), due to the perverted action of various glands which physiology will yet discover. And medical materialism then thinks that the spiritual authority of all such personages is successfully undermined.
This does not mean that the mere claim of religious experience of God consciousness is proof in and of itself, but it means that it must be taken on its own terms. It clearly answers the question about why God doesn't reveal himself to everyone; He has, or rather, He has made it clear to everyone that he exists, and He has provided everyone with a means of knowing Him. He doesn't get any more explicit because faith is a major requirement for belief. Faith is not an arbitrary requirement, but the rational and logical result of a world made up of moral choices. God reveals himself, but on his own terms. We must seek God on those terms, in the human heart and the basic sense of the numinous and in the nature of religious encounter. There are many aspects and versions of this sense, it is not standardized and can be describes in many ways:

Forms of the A priori.

Schleiermacher's "Feeling of Utter Dependence.

Frederick Schleiermacher, (1768-1834) in On Religion: Speeches to it's Cultured Disposers, and The Christian Faith, sets forth the view that religion is not reducible to knowledge or ethical systems. It is primarily a phenomenological apprehension of God consciousness through means of religious affections. Affections is a term not used much anymore, and it is easily confused with mere emotion. Sometimes Schleiermacher is understood as saying that "I become emotional when I pay and thus there must be an object of my emotional feelings." Though he does vintner close to this position in one form of the argument, this is not exactly what he's saying.

Schleiermacher is saying that there is a special intuitive sense that everyone can grasp of this whole, this unity, being bound up with a higher reality, being dependent upon a higher unity. In other words, the "feeling" can be understood as an intuitive sense of "radical contingency" (int he sense of the above ontological arugments).He goes on to say that the feeling is based upon the ontological principle as its theoretical background, but doesn't' depend on the argument because it proceeds the argument as the pre-given pre-theorectical pre-cognative realization of what Anslem sat down and thought about and turned into a rational argument: why has the fools said in his heart 'there is no God?' Why a fool? Because in the heart we know God. To deny this is to deny the most basic realization about reality.

Rudolph Otto's Sense of the Holy (1868-1937)

The sense of power in the numinous which people find when confronted by the sacred. The special sense of presence or of Holiness which is intuitive and observed in all religious experience around the world.

Paul Tillich's Object of Ultimate Concern.

We are going to die. We cannot avoid this. This is our ultimate concern and sooner or latter we have to confront it. When we do we realize a sense of transformation that gives us a special realization existentially that life is more than material.

see also My article on Toilet's notion of God as the Ground of Being.

Tillich's concept made into God argument.

As Robert R. Williams puts it:

There is a "co-determinate to the Feeling of Utter dependence.

It is the original pre-theoretical consciousness...Schleiermacher believes that theoretical cognition is founded upon pre-theoretical intersubjective cognition and its life world. The latter cannot be dismissed as non-cognative for if the life world praxis is non-cognative and invalid so is theoretical cognition..S...contends that belief in God is pre-theoretical, it is not the result of proofs and demonstration, but is conditioned soley by the modification of feeling of utter dependence. Belief in God is not acquired through intellectual acts of which the traditional proofs are examples, but rather from the thing itself, the object of religious experience..If as S...says God is given to feeling in an original way this means that the feeling of utter dependence is in some sense an apparition of divine being and reality. This is not meant as an appeal to revelation but rather as a naturalistic eidetic"] or a priori. The feeling of utter dependence is structured by a corrolation with its whence.
, Schleiermacher the Theologian, p 4. The believer is justified in assuming that his/her experinces are experiences of a reality, that is to say, that God is real.

Freedom from the Need to prove.

Schleiermacher came up with his notion of the feeling when wrestling with Kantian Dualism. Kant had said that the world is divided into two aspects of relaity the numenous and the pheneomenal. The numenous is not experienced through sense data, and sense God is not experineced through sense data, God belongs only to the numenous. The problem is that this robbs us of an object of theological discourse. We can't talk about God because we can't experience God in sense data. Schleiermacher found a way to run an 'end round' and get around the sense data. Experience of God is given directly in the "feeling" apart form sense data.

This frees us form the need to prove the existence of God to others, because we know that God exists in a deep way that cannot be estreated by mere cultural constructs or reductionist data or deified phenomena. This restores the object of theological discourse. Once having regained its object, theological discourse can proceed to make the logical deduction that there must be a CO-determinate to the feeling, and that CO-determinate is God. In that sense Schleiermacher is saying "if I have affections about God must exist as an object of my affections"--not merely because anything there must be an object of all affections, but because of the logic of the co-determinate--there is a sense of radical contengency, there must be an object upon which we are radically contingent.



26 comments:

Kristen said...

The wonderful thing about this is that it encourages us to not just listen to the skeptics saying we should doubt our experiences, but instead to encourage the skeptics to doubt their doubts,to stop privileging their own assumptions.

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

thanks Kristen, The problem with experience based arguments people who havn't had the expertise just don't care

im-skeptical said...

Actually, the problem with experience-based arguments made by religionists is that you fail to recognize that we all have them. It's part of being human. But religious people tend to interpret these experiences based on their religious beliefs, while skeptics are more likely to understand that they are natural, and God is not required to explain the feelings we all share as humans. It's like everything else that has traditionally been explained by claiming that it's the work of God. Science has laid these explanations to rest, one after another. There has always been a natural explanation, and this is no different. You can't claim that we don't have the same kind of feelings, because that's certainly not true (see what Maslow has to say about it, for example). You can't claim that science "loses the phenomena", because that isn't true, either. The only thing lost by science is the need for God to explain it.

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

ctually, the problem with experience-based arguments made by religionists is that you fail to recognize that we all have them. It's part of being human.

No we don't all have them. The M scale proves that. Only 1 in 4 have mystical experience.


But religious people tend to interpret these experiences based on their religious beliefs, while skeptics are more likely to understand that they are natural, and God is not required to explain the feelings we all share as humans.


People of all faiths react the same way to them


It's like everything else that has traditionally been explained by claiming that it's the work of God. Science has laid these explanations to rest, one after another. There has always been a natural explanation, and this is no different. You can't claim that we don't have the same kind of feelings, because that's certainly not true (see what Maslow has to say about it, for example). You can't claim that science "loses the phenomena", because that isn't true, either. The only thing lost by science is the need for God to explain it.

that's your way of covering for not having had it

2:41 PM Delete

Eric Sotnak said...

I'll try to address several points, but I'll do so separately.

"(1) Scineitifc reductionism loses phenomena by re-defining the nature of sense data and quailia"

I don't think this is necessarily true. Reductivism doesn't imply eliminativism. If I believe that some mental state is identical to a brain state, the needn't imply that anything is "lost" -- the taste of chocolate ice cream doesn't have to be something that exists apart from its physical realization for me to love it. The subjective value of qualia doesn't have to be affected at all by a reductionist explanation of them. Much depends here on what, exactly, is involved in providing a REDUCTION (or reductive explanation) of some phenomenon.

How would complete the following?
E is a reductive explanation of phenomenon P if and only if ___.

im-skeptical said...

Excuse me, but you have no idea what I have experienced. It is the height of arrogance for religious people to assume that an atheist doesn't know what it means to be a believer, or that the atheist doesn't understand religious belief, or that the atheist hasn't experienced what the believer has experienced. You forget one very simple fact. Most of us grew up as religious believers. We aren't any different from you. We don't lack some knowledge that you have. The only real difference is that our thinking grew out of the confinement of religion. We got over it. We no longer need to invent reasons and excuses to justify belief. We learned to think for ourselves and left behind the childish things that no longer make sense. We adopted a wider perspective.

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

Eric Sotnak said...
I'll try to address several points, but I'll do so separately.

"(1) Scineitifc reductionism loses phenomena by re-defining the nature of sense data and quailia"

I don't think this is necessarily true. Reductivism doesn't imply eliminativism. If I believe that some mental state is identical to a brain state, the needn't imply that anything is "lost" -- the taste of chocolate ice cream doesn't have to be something that exists apart from its physical realization for me to love it. The subjective value of qualia doesn't have to be affected at all by a reductionist explanation of them. Much depends here on what, exactly, is involved in providing a REDUCTION (or reductive explanation) of some phenomenon.

Reduction is a valid methodological approach and losing the phenomena can happen even the best of intensions. It does happen and all the more when people are using reduction as an ideological ploy which does happen,

How would complete the following?
E is a reductive explanation of phenomenon P if and only if ___.

a fair reductant component parts, But hw would you do that with mystical experience?

10:49 AM

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

contra Skepie

Excuse me, but you have no idea what I have experienced. It is the height of arrogance for religious people to assume that an atheist doesn't know what it means to be a believer, or that the atheist doesn't understand religious belief, or that the atheist hasn't experienced what the believer has experienced.


No it's not arrogance it's science. The M scale is scientific and factual. I don't know if you have had mystical experience or not. I wasn't speaking of you personally but we do not all have them

You forget one very simple fact. Most of us grew up as religious believers. We aren't any different from you. We don't lack some knowledge that you have.


The literature is divided as to what percentage of the publics has mystical experience. some opt for as many as 1 in four. I think the full blown mystical experience is quite rare. There are tow major types of mystical introvertive and extravertive, The former is very rare. when people show no indication of understanding what the experience is then I will notv accept they had it just because they say so.

The only real difference is that our thinking grew out of the confinement of religion. We got over it. We no longer need to invent reasons and excuses to justify belief. We learned to think for ourselves and left behind the childish things that no longer make sense. We adopted a wider perspective.

That is atheist ploy to give high self esteem to those without much so being an atheist make you fee super smart. you want to believe that Christians don
t think for themselves because not makes you feel smarter.

Thinking for yourself will not tell you weather or not you have mystical experience






You forget one very simple fact. Most of us grew up as religious believers. We aren't any different from you. We don't lack some knowledge that you have. The only real difference is that our thinking grew out of the confinement of religion. We got over it. We no longer need to invent reasons and excuses to justify belief. We learned to think for ourselves and left behind the childish things that no longer make sense. We adopted a wider perspective.

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

still talking to Skep


You forget one very simple fact. Most of us grew up as religious believers. We aren't any different from you. We don't lack some knowledge that you have.


You lack a great deal of knowledge that I have. Atheists use a ploy making their troops feel superior to religious people. Those who need self esteem (most of us) will flock. Being an atheist makes you feel smart and special. The idea of valid experience of the believer takes that feeling of.

I was an atheist



We got over it. We no longer need to invent reasons and excuses to justify belief. We learned to think for ourselves and left behind the childish things that no longer make sense. We adopted a wider perspective.

that is a confession that your real motivation is self esteem. You have not said one word abouit the actual issue. The real issue at back of your mind appears t be who i smarter?

The only real difference is that our thinking grew out of the confinement of religion. We got over it. We no longer need to invent reasons and excuses to justify belief. We learned to think for ourselves and left behind the childish things that no longer make sense. We adopted a wider perspective.

6:36 P

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

The only real difference is that our thinking grew out of the confinement of religion. We got over it. We no longer need to invent reasons and excuses to justify belief. We learned to think for ourselves and left behind the childish things that no longer make sense. We adopted a wider perspective.


see you need to believer you are smart. you thought your way out of thee you God cult because you are smart. wow you are so smart.. That's all you can think about. I eas an atheist I thought my way out of the crutch of Christ. I was double smart I thought my way out of atheism, I did not go back to the group I grew up in.

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

Eric, there are two attitudinal approaches that make for two kinds of reductionism, The valid one is just reducing to basic components that is a valid methodology. The other is trying to dismantle non ideologically sanctioned forms of thinking

im-skeptical said...

No it's not arrogance it's science. The M scale is scientific and factual. I don't know if you have had mystical experience or not. I wasn't speaking of you personally but we do not all have them

- I believe we have discussed this before. How does the M Scale work? You answer a survey, and the answers you give are assessed to determine whether you had a "genuine" mystical experience. It doesn't account for the cause of the experience - the triggering circumstances, the physiological and psychological state of the subject, nor the electro-chemical activity of the brain. It doesn't actually measure anything. What it does is determine if your subjective feelings about the experience fall into a category that is regarded by some as being religious or mystical. You can call that science if you wish. But here's something to think about: Consider two different people have essentially the same experience. One of them is a scientist and an atheist, and the other is deeply religious. The way they answer the M Scale survey is very different, and highly influenced by their belief systems. The M Scale determines that one of them had a "genuine" mystical experience, and the other one didn't. It's all based on the answers they gave. What the M scale does is weed out any experiences that are not seen by the subject as mystical in nature. How surprising is it, then, that these mystical experiences are invariably associated with some kind of godly presence? That's what the M Scale does.

im-skeptical said...

So getting back to science, there is Psychology of Religion (dominated by religious believers, where you find the M Scale), and there is the much broader field of Psychology in general. Maslow was a psychologist. He described the phenomenon that he called "peak experience" in a more scientific manner. He didn't draw a distinction between the so-called "mystical experience" and other similar events that are non-religious. The peak experience doesn't have to be godly or religious. It is common to all kinds of people, whether they are religious or not. The intensity of the experience varies considerably. It generally brings about feelings of well-being, and is often seen as a godly presence. But the way a person sees this experience is highly dependent on what the person believes.

Science can study these experiences to learn how they are caused and what kind of effects they have. We have already seen that it is possible to induce them by a variety of means. And at least in some cases, the M Scale would regard these artificially induced experiences as "genuine" mystical experience. What does that tell us about mystical experience? For one thing, it is not appropriate to conclude that it must be caused by God.

Eric Sotnak said...

"(2)There are other ways of Knowing than scinetific induction"

Even if this is true, you don't say what these other ways of knowing are or what are the criteria for validation of them. You want to use this premise to justify your later claim that religion (or religious experience) can provide knowledge. But you surely don't want (I assume) to say that all religious beliefs are true. Nor (I also assume) do you want to say that no religious beliefs can ever be invalidated by scientific observation. So you will need to be able to complete something like the following biconditional:

A religious belief that P can legitimately be taken as knowledge that P if and only if ___.

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

I think it's obvious that there are ways to know things other than science. I know my mother loved me, science does not tell me that, for one example. I wasn't making a formal argent we can go into that if you wish.

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...
- I believe we have discussed this before. How does the M Scale work? You answer a survey, and the answers you give are assessed to determine whether you had a "genuine" mystical experience. It doesn't account for the cause of the experience - the triggering circumstances, the physiological and psychological state of the subject, nor the electro-chemical activity of the brain. It doesn't actually measure anything.

No it's NOT about proving God exists, There is no scientific means of determining weather or not God exists. I never claimed the M scale does that. I wrote a post on March 22 of this year entitled "the M scale" where I explained how it works. Here's a Link:

https://metacrock.blogspot.com/2022/03/the-m-scale.html

What it does is determine if your subjective feelings about the experience fall into a category that is regarded by some as being religious or mystical.


No that is not what it does!!! You totally misunderstand the very concept. Hood is a gay agnostic unitarian why would he design a a study that was biased in favor of Evangelical Christianity??

You can call that science if you wish. But here's something to think about: Consider two different people have essentially the same experience. One of them is a scientist and an atheist, and the other is deeply religious. The way they answer the M Scale survey is very different, and highly influenced by their belief systems. The M Scale determines that one of them had a "genuine" mystical experience, and the other one didn't. It's all based on the answers they gave. What the M scale does is weed out any experiences that are not seen by the subject as mystical in nature. How surprising is it, then, that these mystical experiences are invariably associated with some kind of godly presence? That's what the M Scale does.


Skep, Do you know God is using you to do his will? He is using you to teach me patience. You could not be more wrong. Obviously the way they answered is influenced their beliefs. The scale is not biased toward religious believers. in fact some atheists have mystical experiences. The point of the scale is to determine a mystical expertise from some other kind. It makes no assumption about God or lack thereof.


The neat thing is it proves that people of all faiths or nonfaiths have the same kind of experiences, It's not limited to Christians or any one group.. Even atheists. they all react the way.

2:18 PM Delete
Leave your comment

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

So getting back to science, there is Psychology of Religion (dominated by religious believers, where you find the M Scale),

You do not know shit about the M scale. you are always wrong everything you said about it has been wrong. You know nothing about it. Again the guy who invented it (Ralph Hood Jr.) is not a Christian, he's not a believer. He believes in impersonal unitarian God.


and there is the much broader field of Psychology in general. Maslow was a psychologist. He described the phenomenon that he called "peak experience" in a more scientific manner. He didn't draw a distinction between the so-called "mystical experience" and other similar events that are non-religious. The peak experience doesn't have to be godly or religious. It is common to all kinds of people, whether they are religious or not. The intensity of the experience varies considerably. It generally brings about feelings of well-being, and is often seen as a godly presence. But the way a person sees this experience is highly dependent on what the person believes.

Maslow was an atheist but the cool kind you don't find on the net. I use him in my religious experience God arguments.

Science can study these experiences to learn how they are caused and what kind of effects they have. We have already seen that it is possible to induce them by a variety of means.

No it's not proven. For one thing none of the researchers who say that, use a control mechanism such as the M scale


And at least in some cases, the M Scale would regard these artificially induced experiences as "genuine" mystical experience. What does that tell us about mystical experience? For one thing, it is not appropriate to conclude that it must be caused by God.

Mystical experience is mystical regardless of what triggers it. We are talking about triggers not manufacturing the sensibility

im-skeptical said...

The point of the scale is to determine a mystical expertise from some other kind.
- That's right. That's exactly what I'm saying. It separates the ones that are deemed to be mystical from the ones that aren't. And this is all based on the way the subjects answer the questions. The problem is that there is no objective means of making this determination. It's all about what the subject feels about the experience, and there is no way by means of this scale to say that people who have different feelings about their experience are actually going through something that really is different.


It makes no assumption about God or lack thereof.
- That's not true. Here's what you say about factor analysis: "The scales were “factor analyzed,” they weighed each difference as a factor such as it’s mention of God or mention of Christ. In this factor analysis, where the scale referred to “God,” “Christ” or simply “reality” the “factor structures were identical.” That is the respondents saw “God,” “Christ” and “ultimate reality” as coterminou." What this means is that there are factors that specifically point to a religious experience. Of course, this also includes something you call "ultimate reality", which may be seen as an alternative to something that s specifically religious, but that's just your codeword for God. So as long as the subject answers the questionnaire the right way to match these factors, you really do make presumptions about the involvement of God. And this is how you can make your conclusion: "Therefore, religious belief is justified on its own terms ..."

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

The point of the scale is to determine a mystical expertise from some other kind.
- That's right. That's exactly what I'm saying. It separates the ones that are deemed to be mystical from the ones that aren't. And this is all based on the way the subjects answer the questions. The problem is that there is no objective means of making this determination.

Yes there is. The scale is designed to do and it was based upon writings of the worlds great mystics, Then he uses empirical studies of modern people to see if they match, That establishes the standards by which experiences are measured,


It's all about what the subject feels about the experience, and there is no way by means of this scale to say that people who have different feelings about their experience are actually going through something that really is different.


That is bull shit, it has nothing do with feelings it doesn't measure feelings it doesn't include them. You are just guessing,


It makes no assumption about God or lack thereof.
- That's not true. Here's what you say about factor analysis: "The scales were “factor analyzed,” they weighed each difference as a factor such as it’s mention of God or mention of Christ. In this factor analysis, where the scale referred to “God,” “Christ” or simply “reality” the “factor structures were identical.” That is the respondents saw “God,” “Christ” and “ultimate reality” as coterminous." What this means is that there are factors that specifically point to a religious experience.

That does not mean the subject's belief in God factors into the determination of mysticism Atheist's do the M scale and score high on it. It mentions belief in God that does NOT mean that belief in God factors into the score. Atheists who take are scored lower for lack of belief.

Of course, this also includes something you call "ultimate reality", which may be seen as an alternative to something that s specifically religious, but that's just your codeword for God.

that does not mean the score depends upon belief in God. If you talk about what people believe you have to talk about God sooner or latter but you have to bae the core on belief in God.


So as long as the subject answers the questionnaire the right way to match these factors, you really do make presumptions about the involvement of God. And this is how you can make your conclusion: "Therefore, religious belief is justified on its own terms ..."

Of course you must do that, matching up factors only a dunce would try to avoid talking about what people believe. That does not mean the score has to based upon that



Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

here is a link to a page I wrote on the M scale for a book ad. It gives a decent explanation of M scale.


https://traceofgod.blogspot.com/2015/08/the-m-scale-and-universal-nature-of.html

im-skeptical said...

That is bull shit, it has nothing do with feelings it doesn't measure feelings it doesn't include them. You are just guessing,
- The M Scale assesses subjective spirituality. Do you know what "subjective" means? It IS about how the subject feels.
https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/The-Mysticism-Scale-as-Measure-for-Subjective-Streib-Klein/b0f7338bdb29504ad10e9d5fa7fb0da4420ee370

That does not mean the subject's belief in God factors into the determination of mysticism Atheist's do the M scale and score high on it. It mentions belief in God that does NOT mean that belief in God factors into the score. Atheists who take are scored lower for lack of belief.
- You completely misunderstand what I am saying. The M scale does not assess religious belief (directly). It assesses psychological factors that are correlated with spirituality and religiosity. But let's not mince words here. The M Scale is about God. Hood himself called it the "God Mysticism Scale". And this was published in the Journal of Psychology and Christianity, a well-known bastion of atheist scientific researchers.

And by the way, here is scientific reason to doubt the validity of the M scale's claims of determining whether a mystical experience is truly "genuine", if by that term we mean not induced by artificial means:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3539773/


im-skeptical said...

Oops. Reference for Hood's God Mysticism Scale:
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11089-018-0856-7

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

That is bull shit, it has nothing do with feelings it doesn't measure feelings it doesn't include them. You are just guessing,
- The M Scale assesses subjective spirituality. Do you know what "subjective" means? It IS about how the subject feels.


No it does not. It sets up objective criteria by which we can understand the characteristics of the experience. In that way it determines a true mystical experience without resorting to subjective states of mind.


https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/The-Mysticism-Scale-as-Measure-for-Subjective-Streib-Klein/b0f7338bdb29504ad10e9d5fa7fb0da4420ee370

Me: That does not mean the subject's belief in God factors into the determination of mysticism Atheist's do the M scale and score high on it. It mentions belief in God that does NOT mean that belief in God factors into the score. Atheists who take are scored lower for lack of belief.


- You completely misunderstand what I am saying. The M scale does not assess religious belief (directly). It assesses psychological factors that are correlated with spirituality and religiosity.

No it doesn't assess anything. It's only about did you have a mystical experience or not?


But let's not mince words here. The M Scale is about God. Hood himself called it the "God Mysticism Scale". And this was published in the Journal of Psychology and Christianity, a well-known bastion of atheist scientific researchers.

That's one early version.

And by the way, here is scientific reason to doubt the validity of the M scale's claims of determining whether a mystical experience is truly "genuine", if by that term we mean not induced by artificial means:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3539773/


The trigger is at issue. It's totally about did you have one or not? It's not concerned with how you liked it. It's not concerned with what cause it. We have to deal with triggers not causes.

im-skeptical said...

OK. But science is concerned with what causes it.

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

you can't determine the cause. Anything they connect to it could just be God's mechanism.