"I never questioned the existence of a creator god. I question the existence of *your* god. Your god (allegedly) made the following statements which any six year old can see are clear statements that if a believer asks for ANYTHING, in faith, it will be done."[1] Of course his point is that this contradicts our experiences. We have all had unanswered prayers.Therefore, in his mind this means Jesus was wrong. Of course he can't follow a savior who was wrong.
Look at one verse:"I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven" (Matthew 18.19).
He has several such passages:
Matthew 18.19
“Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven." New International Version (NIV)
Matthew 21:22
"If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”
Mark 11.24
"Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours."
John 14:13
“Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.”
John 16.23
"Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you."
There are a couple of problems:
Matt 21 just before triumpal entry
Matt 21:1
As they approached Jerusalem and came to Bethphage on the Mount of Olives, Jesus sent two disciples, 2 saying to them, “Go to the village ahead of you, and at once you will find a donkey tied there, with her colt by her. Untie them and bring them to me. 3 If anyone says anything to you, say that the Lord needs them, and he will send them right away.”
Mark 11 is the same incient:
11:1 As they approached Jerusalem and came to Bethphage and Bethany at the Mount of Olives, Jesus sent two of his disciples, 2 saying to them, “Go to the village ahead of you, and just as you enter it, you will find a colt tied there, which no one has ever ridden. Untie it and bring it here. 3 If anyone asks you, ‘Why are you doing this?’ say, ‘The Lord needs it and will send it back here shortly.’”
The context of the two passages in John are found as early as John chapter 13, (13:1) "It was just before the Passover Festival. Jesus knew that the hour had come for him to leave this world and go to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he loved them to the end."
We can't pin down the exact moment that he said each of these passages. But I think it's clear he did not say this five times. He may have said it twice. More likely once. It's repeated five times. Moreover it is also spoken to the Apostles about a specific point in time not all beleivers for all times.
We can see that it is to the Apostles because the last passage in John 16 is clearly to the Apotles speakg of the time of crucifixion and resurrection.First because they have sitiated the time around that of the last supper (see above). the passage in John 16 is cleary spoken to the apostles about their ministry after Jesus is gone.
[John 16]22 So with you: Now is your time of grief, but I will see you again and you will rejoice, and no one will take away your joy. 23 In that day you will no longer ask me anything. Very truly I tell you, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 24 Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.
Since that is the same enstance as the others none of them are genral promses to all belivers. We have other promises of Jesus that God is caring for us (Matt 6:25-34).
Isaac Dagneau answers John 14:13, he argues that there are two qualifiers which rule out the notion that Jesus is saying God will absolutly answer any prayer,
Here’s how we know this: the emphasis of these verses is both the phrase, “in my name,” and “that the Father may be glorified in the Son.” So, what we can understand Jesus as saying to his disciples (and what he still promises to us) is, “When you pray in my name and your prayer is for the Father’s glory in me, I will do it, whatever it is.” Firstly, we must know what it means to pray in Jesus’ name. Simply put, to pray in Jesus’ name is to pray in accordance with God’s will (1 John 5:14-15). It’s to pray in an awareness of the truth of Jesus, the mission of Jesus, and the ultimate goal of Jesus. It’s also to pray in the authority of Jesus, since genuine believers have Jesus living in them (John 15:4-5) and “do the works that [Jesus does].” (14:12)[2]Grant C. Richardson agrees Jesus is speakimg to the aposotles only.
The word “you” here is plural referring to the apostles in the upper room. Jesus changes from the third person plural (speaking to more than the apostles) to the second person (speaking to the eleven apostles). The future ministry of the apostles was to transition from the presence of Jesus to the promise of the Father and His resourcing their ministry in verses 13 and 14..
“Whatever” harks back to both the “works” and the “greater works” of the previous verse. The “whatever” does not guarantee that whatever whim a petitioner may ask will come his way. Jesus qualifies answer to prayer by the phrase “in My name,” in what is consistent with who Jesus is.....The thought of this verse is no blanket promise to give people whatever they want. Rather, the agreement has to do with fulfilling Jesus’ mission and the glory of the Father on earth. Using Jesus’ name as a formula is not the point. The idea is that our prayer is to accord with all that His name represents[3]
Charles John Ellicott, renowned Bible Commentary, was one of the most outstanding conservative scholars of the 18th century, argued that there is an impllied condition that "whatever" you ask is in harmoany with God's Will: "(22) All things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer.—Here again there is the implied condition (as in Matthew 7:7) that what is asked is in harmony with the laws and will of God. If it were not so it would not be asked in faith, and every true prayer involves the submission of what it asks to the divine judgment."[4]
Notes
[1]Gary M, comment on "a succinct Statememt of Atheist Self Defeat," Randal Ruoser the tentative apologist, Oct 11,2020,
https://randalrauser.com/2020/10/a-succinct-statement-of-atheist-self-defeat/#comment-5144218893
[2] Isaac Dagneau, "Jesus said what? a look at John 14:13=14,IndoubtJuly 18,2018
https://www.indoubt.com/articles/jesus-said-what-a-look-at-john-1413-14/#:~:text=In%20John%2014%3A13%2D14,and%20happiness%20in%20the%20world!
[3]Grant C. Richison, "John 1413,"Verse by verse commenary Mar 6, 2018 https://versebyversecommentary.com/2018/03/06/john-1413/
Dr. Richison has taught at William Tyndale College, Providence Theological Seminary, Northwest Baptist Seminary, International School of Theology, and Briercrest Graduate School.
[4]Charles John Ellicott.quoted in Bible Hub, "mattheww 21:22
" https://biblehub.com/commentaries/matthew/21-22.htm
Charles John Ellicott. Charles John Ellicott, compiler of and contributor to renowned Bible Commentary, was one of the most outstanding conservative scholars of the 18th century.
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/matthew/21-22.htm
15 comments:
Why do we have to work in heaven when we spent our entire earthly lives working just to get basic necessities? Where is the rest in that? One objection I have is that Christianity teaches we lose our free will when we get to heaven and we are no longer autonomous beings.
No all of that is wrong. Where do you get the idea we work in heave? There is no such passage in the Bible. Christianity does not teach that we lose free will in heaven, some commentators think so but there is no such official doctrine, many do nit agree. I don't.
Joe: Christianity does not teach that we lose free will in heaven, some commentators think so but there is no such official doctrine, many do nit agree. I don't.
So free will is perfectly compatible with everyone doing only good. It is a shame God could not contrive that for earth.
Pix
there's a change in consciousness such that people desires naturally gravitate toward God. Consciousness is raised not taken over. Perhaps those who would not chose this don;t get in,
So you are saying God could create us with the different consciousness, and we could all live in a world of peace and happiness, and still have free will.
But instead he chose to create us with a sinful nature, where people are always trying to get the better of each other and many people end up in misery and poverty.
Pix
the official story says not that God created us with sin nature but h e created us with free will we chose sin the result was corruption our nature.
So what is to stop you choosing sin in heaven?
Pix
the love of God.
Ah, I see. In heaven the love of God will constrain our free will, and prevent us choosing evil.
But on earth, in the absence of the love of God, that is not the case.
Have you thought this through? Both of those contradict what you say elsewhere. I imagine you will protest that I have misrepresented you, but then, I expect that was the point. You chose to give a very brief and ambiguous answer to keep your position obscured.
So it will be interesting to see if you choose to clarify your position, or to obfuscate. The former will indicate you think your position is secure, the latter that you know it makes no sense.
Pix
Anonymous said...
Ah, I see. In heaven the love of God will constrain our free will, and prevent us choosing evil.
Wrong. The only people who will go to heaven will be people who want to be there. That means we will not want to sin we will be people know God, who love God who want to please God. You might as well say that love wipes out free will. Maybe it does but you want to give up by your own free will if you love. Then our love will be returned and God's love will be direct face to face.
But on earth, in the absence of the love of God, that is not the case.
Have you thought this through?
Yes for years. It comes up every soften in dealing with atheists on the net,
Both of those contradict what you say elsewhere.
no you refer to your understanding which assumes loss of free will. Mine requires that we want to please God even in heaven, that is free will.
I imagine you will protest that I have misrepresented you, but then, I expect that was the point. You chose to give a very brief and ambiguous answer to keep your position obscured.
no I think you have trouble realizing that we are talking about real feelings not just intellectual affirmation
So it will be interesting to see if you choose to clarify your position, or to obfuscate. The former will indicate you think your position is secure, the latter that you know it makes no sense.
I just did clarify it, now it's really a question of your understanding,
Joe: Wrong. The only people who will go to heaven will be people who want to be there. That means we will not want to sin we will be people know God, who love God who want to please God.
Do you seriously think Christians never sin, they never even want to sin? Again, this is in disagreement with usual Christian doctrine, which is that everyone sins.
The reality is that Christians do sin. That means those people who go to heaven will either still want to sin or they will be changed somehow so they no longer want to.
Joe: You might as well say that love wipes out free will. Maybe it does but you want to give up by your own free will if you love.
But you said earlier you still have your free will. Which is it?
Joe: no you refer to your understanding which assumes loss of free will. Mine requires that we want to please God even in heaven, that is free will.
Are you saying in heaven it will be changed so you always and consistently freely choose what God wants? Sounds like a definition of free will I am not familiar with.
Also, please explain why God could not create us like that in the first place. You just said you have free will, so that is fine, and the world would be such a better place!
Joe: I just did clarify it, now it's really a question of your understanding,
You certainly gave a long answer. Whether your position is now clear is... debatable.
Pix
Px Do you seriously think Christians never sin
you are not facing reality, We will not be as we are now, we will have free will but not have the same needs. First, We wont have a sex drive we WE will be butterflies, death is the chrysalis. Second, we will be transformed in our minds to a higher for of consciousness. Add to that God's love will transform us it will be face to face.
Px Joe: You might as well say that love wipes out free will. Maybe it does but you want to give up by your own free will if you love.
But you said earlier you still have your free will. Which is it?\
that does not mean losing the capacity for free will it means wanting to please God
Are you saying in heaven it will be changed so you always and consistently freely choose what God wants? Sounds like a definition of free will I am not familiar with.
your undersetting of religious life is pretty shallow, see my answer at top
Also, please explain why God could not create us like that in the first place. You just said you have free will, so that is fine, and the world would be such a better place!
that is explained by soteriological theory, we've discussed that before, you should have paid attention. I will say this here, the point is growth. growth cannot be had overnight.
Joe: I just did clarify it, now it's really a question of your understanding,
You certainly gave a long answer. Whether your position is now clear is... debatable.
this is closed. Its Friday i need time to write for Monday
here is my soteriological theory
"We wont have a sex drive we WE will be butterflies, death is the chrysalis."
You need to learn some biology. Butterflies are the stage that mate; it is caterpillars that have no sex drive.
that is not importation I was refereeing to the depth of change not extending the metaphor.
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