James Garner, (Bret Maverick)Jack Kelly
(Bart Maverick) tv shoiw "Maverick"
58-62. They gamble.
The Multiverse argument (MV or MVA) is an answer to the Christian apologetic argument called"fine tuning" (FT or FTA); I also refer to FT as anthroipic coincidences. Anytime atheists argue about scientific things with Christians they charge "you don't understand it because you don't agree." I illustrate my understanding of the multiverse argument with the following analogy. The conventional deck of playing cards consists of 52 cards. There is a finite number of cards so it is possible to get the combination called "royal flush" at some point although it is rare because there are 52 different possible cards but the total combinations are limited. Now that means getting 10 Royal flushes in a row is so totally unlikely it almost seems impossible.It's not impossible but extremely unlikely (understated). But suppose we have an infinite number of cards (each card being a chance)? Given an infinite number of chances it is certain one will eventually get 10 royal flushes in a row, although it might take a million years, but hey in evolution we have lots of time.
We are talking about evolution because the analogy above is really about fine tuning of the anthropic coincidences that make a life-bearing universe possible (10 royal flushes in a row because hitting all the target levels for coincidences is so rare). The fine tuning (FT) argument says life is so extremely rare it;s a good indication the game is fixed,that we need God to account for it. The multiverse argent (MV) says ah but if we have infinite chances (infinite cards) it is certain we will eventually get a life-bearing universe,so the overwhelming odds are not so great when we consider the MV because that infinite chances at for a life-bearing Universe. The important point here is that those who make this argument want to assert that it is the mere possibility (and the certainty that extends from the possibility) that kills the FTA). Proving there is a MV is irrelevant because it;s possible there is one so the FT doesn't prove God. Because it is possible the universe might be just the natural consequence of infuriate chances. In atheist reasoning that possibility might as well be a certainty. All they need is an excuse not to believe and this is one.
There are two problems with this kind of thinking. First. it is subsumed in the standard assumption. That is we know up front there is a possibility that the coincidences could be natural,that the target levels are hit just amazingly amazingly amazing convinces, That's assumed in the argument. The argument doesn't claim to prove God absolutely. It was originally proposed as a tie breaker. It has been used mostly as a probabilistic argumemt. Of course, my standard assumption in making any God argument is that we don't have to prove the existence of God but merely indicate a good reason to believe in God. Of course it's possible that the anthropic coincidences could merely be amazingly huge coincidences, But there may good reasons not to assume that. This leads us to the second problem with the MVA: Secondly, it assumes absolute proof of God. Of course atheists will always deny that they demand absolute proof and they will continue asserting that all the while demanding more and more proof until it becomes absolute. My arguments all assume we can't prove God. Proof is for mathematics or empirical evidence. God is a reality not mathematics,, God is not given in sense data so there can be no scientific evidence to prove or disprove God. Scientific evidence is largely irrelevant to the existence of God. It does give us some hints as with FT. There are good reasons to reject the idea that a possibility negates FTA.
Here are my nine reasons MVA is not an automatic take down for FTA
The argument is that none of these forces and examples really prove design because given infinite chances there will eventually be a universe that gets it right, we just happen to be it. Now scientists theorize that there are billions or even an infinite set of alternate universes arising all the time. That gives us the infinite chance
I. Have to know hit rate for life bearing universes
Unless we know the rate at which life bearing is produced, just having a bunch of universes proves nothing.
This applies both to parallel universes and to planets of our own universe. The new research puts the estimate at 22% of stars that have earth=like planets. [1] That certainly seems like a disproof of the FTA since it makes life-bearing planets common. The problem is as has been hinted at we can't say these are life bearing. Earth-like just means size and temperature...size can very and fool us temperature is very important to know too.
The temperature of the planet is important, of course, and depends on how much light the planets gets from its star. As a range, they looked for planets that received no more than four times the light the Earth receives from the Sun, and no less than 0.25 times as much. That should bracket the warm and cool edges of the “habitable zone”, where water can exist. This range may in fact be much broader; a planet can be much farther from its star and still have liquid water (see Enceladus as an example), but they wanted to be conservative.[2]Dr. Batalha said, “We don’t yet have any planet candidates that are exact analogues of the Earth in terms of size, orbit or star type.”[3]
II.We can never know if other universes exist or not.
One might be tempted to think that doesn't matter because the statistics indicate there must be lots of life bearing planets out there. Yet the important point is the atheists are the one's saying don't believe without empirical proof. They will challenge the believer to show "just one" fact supporting God. Yet they believe this with no empirical proof!
"yes there could be other universes out there, but they would be unobservable no matter how old our universe became...even infinity old!! So, such universes have no meaning to science because there is no experiment we can perform to detect them." (astronomy café) [4]
Robert Koon's, philosopher Univ. Texas said,"Note how the situation has changed. Originally, atheists prided themselves on being no-nonsense empiricists, who limited their beliefs to what could be seen and measured. Now, we find ourselves in a situation in which the only alternative to belief in God is belief in an infinite number of unobservable parallel universes! You've come along way, baby!
III. Multiverse Requires Fine Tuning
Futhermore, the best mechanism for multiverses that last, actually requires fine-tuning itself. The chaotic inflationary model - which seeks to avoid fine-tuning by positing that the initial conditions vary at random over the superspace of the Higgs fields - also fine-tunes its parameters, as Earman has pointed out: "The inflationary model can succeed only by fine-tuning its parameters, and even then, relative to some natural measures on initial conditions, it may also have to fine-tune its initial conditions for inflation to work."[5]
co-author in inflationary theoryPhysicist Paul Steinhardt agrees:
“The whole point of inflation was to get rid of fine-tuning – to explain features of the original big bang model that must be fine-tuned to match observations. The fact that we had to introduce one fine-tuning to remove another was worrisome. This problem has never been resolved."[6]It is true they were not talking about answering the FTA for God but using FT of a sort in builig inflationary theory. But the application it has here is that the theory of MV requires inflation, and if that theory itself requires fine tuning they can hardly balk at the concept of fine tuning. But they have no mechanism to tune things. This puts inflationary theory in question and thus MV.
IV. Multivrese is Inverse of Gambler's fallacy
The whole issue of the objection to the multiverse is nothing but an inverse of the gambler's fallacy: " Some people think that if you roll the dice repeatedly and don't get double sixes, then you are more likely to get double sixes on the next roll. They are victims of the notorious gambler's fallacy. In a 1987 article in Mind, the philosopher Ian Hacking sees a kindred bit of illogic behind the Many Universes Hypothesis. Suppose you enter a room and see a guy roll a pair of dice. They come up double sixes. You think, "Aha, that is very unlikely on a single roll, so he must have rolled the dice many times before I walked into the room." You have committed what Hacking labels the inverse gambler's fallacy."[7]
V. Incredulous logic of Multiverse begs question
Plantinga puts it as follows: "Well, perhaps all this is logically possible (and then again perhaps not). As a response to a probabilistic argument, however, it's pretty anemic. How would this kind of reply play in Tombstone, or Dodge City? "Waal, shore, Tex, I know it's a leetle mite suspicious that every time I deal I git four aces and a wild card, but have you considered the following? Possibly there is an infinite succession of universes, so that for any possible distribution of possible poker hands, there is a universe in which that possibility is realized; we just happen to find ourselves in one where someone like me always deals himself only aces and wild cards without ever cheating. So put up that shootin' arn and set down 'n shet yore yap, ya dumb galoot."[8]
VI. Violation of Occam's Razor
The multiverse is a desperate catch-all explanation that could explain away any evidence for anything by simply inflating the probabilistic resources to infinity, and it is also the most flagrant violation of Occam's razor ever. Occam really said "do not multiply entities beyond necessity," yet the Multiversers are doing just that merely for the purpose of answering this argument.
I wrote a whole blog piece on this one, Metacrock's Blog: Occam's Razor shaves multi-verse.[9]
:what this really means is that FT should have presumption as long as no empirical evidence for MV.
The multiverse is a desperate catch-all explanation that could explain away any evidence for anything by simply inflating the probabilistic resources to infinity, and it is also the most flagrant violation of Occam's razor ever. Occam really said "do not multiply entities beyond necessity," yet the Multiversers are doing just that merely for the purpose of answering this argument.
I wrote a whole blog piece on this one, Metacrock's Blog: Occam's Razor shaves multi-verse.[9]
:what this really means is that FT should have presumption as long as no empirical evidence for MV.
VII. Multiverse is Arbitrary necessity
See argument one. Arbitrary necessities are illogical. That is one a contingency is put over as a necessity. That is what is being done with the multiverse, they are pretending that this whole mutliverse needs no explanation, it's just bound to happen, it's necessary. But it's really just magnifying a string of endless contingencies into a giant arbitrary necessity.
This argument can't disprove the multiverse because there are reasons to consider it, but it does there's a good reason to disbelieve it as long as there's no empirical evidence for it.
As philosopher of science Quentin R. Smith admits, "A disadvantage of . . . theories that postulate a background space from which the universe fluctuates, is that they explain the existence of the universe but only at the price of introducing another unexplained given, viz., the background space"[10]
VIII. Rules Change
The basic idea is that inflationary theory (the mechanism to explain MV under current conditions necessitates alternate universes with different rules, rules we can't know. If we can't know the rules we can't make predictions, we can't explain things. Science loses explanatory power, which necessitated the assumption of uniform rules.This is coming from the guy who helped invent the theory. The principle that makes life bearing universe a certainty makes rules change a certainty:all logically possible options come to fruition given infinite chances,
IX Inflationary Model Not Parsimonious, not simple, explanatory or predictive.
Steinhardt:
X. Multiverse proves existence of God!
At this point we can bring in Platinga's Possible words argument. Is it possible that in one of those other universes there would be a God like the one Anselm speaks of? The answer as to be "yes." If not the atheist must show why not. After all they want to push the dictum that the mutliverses must exist because there are infinite chances for them to exist and it's Soooooo illogical to think that they would not. But the same logic applies, there must be a God in one of those infinite universes. And yet it is absurd to think that a necessary being would be limited to just one reality. God has to be God in all reality.
Concluson: All Design arguments are like the glass of water half empty or half full. The believer thinks he/she sees it half full, the skeptic sees it half empty. But the anthropic argument is different, it offers a comparison between designed and undersigned features because we can understand the range of probabilities which might have been to form a non-life bearing universe. We know that the universe did not have to be as it is, and we know that it is extremely improbable. While this may not be absolute proof, it is good probabilistic proof.
Fine Tuning Part 3 Earth-like Planets
Sources
[1] Dennis Overbye, "Far Off Planets Like Earth Dot the Galaxy," space and Cosmos, NY Times. Nov 4, 2013. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/05/science/cosmic-census-finds-billions-of-planets-that-could-be-like-earth.html?_r=0
[2] Phil Plait "The sky may be filled with Earth like Planets,"Slate, nov 4 2013 on line copy:http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2013/11/04/earth_like_exoplanets_planets_like_ours_may_be_very_common.html
See argument one. Arbitrary necessities are illogical. That is one a contingency is put over as a necessity. That is what is being done with the multiverse, they are pretending that this whole mutliverse needs no explanation, it's just bound to happen, it's necessary. But it's really just magnifying a string of endless contingencies into a giant arbitrary necessity.
This argument can't disprove the multiverse because there are reasons to consider it, but it does there's a good reason to disbelieve it as long as there's no empirical evidence for it.
As philosopher of science Quentin R. Smith admits, "A disadvantage of . . . theories that postulate a background space from which the universe fluctuates, is that they explain the existence of the universe but only at the price of introducing another unexplained given, viz., the background space"[10]
VIII. Rules Change
The basic idea is that inflationary theory (the mechanism to explain MV under current conditions necessitates alternate universes with different rules, rules we can't know. If we can't know the rules we can't make predictions, we can't explain things. Science loses explanatory power, which necessitated the assumption of uniform rules.This is coming from the guy who helped invent the theory. The principle that makes life bearing universe a certainty makes rules change a certainty:all logically possible options come to fruition given infinite chances,
IX Inflationary Model Not Parsimonious, not simple, explanatory or predictive.
Steinhardt:
But my concerns really grew when I discovered that, due to quantum fluctuation effects, inflation is generically eternal and (as others soon emphasized) this would lead to a multiverse. Inflation was introduced to produce a universe that looks smooth and flat everywhere and that has features everywhere that agree with what we observe. Instead, it turns out that, due to quantum effects, inflation produces a multitude of patches (universes) that span every physically conceivable outcome (flat and curved, smooth and not smooth, isotropic and not isotropic, scale-invariant spectra and not, etc.). Our observable universe would be just one possibility out of a continuous spectrum of outcomes. So, we have not explained any feature of the universe by introducing inflation after all. We have just shifted the problem of the original big bang model (how can we explain our simple universe when there is a nearly infinite variety of possibilities that could emerge from the big bang?) to the inflationary model (how can we explain our simple universe when there is a nearly infinite variety of possibilities could emerge in a multiverse?).
To me, the accidental universe idea is scientifically meaningless because it explains nothing and predicts nothing. Also, it misses the most salient fact we have learned about large-scale structure of the universe: its extraordinary simplicity when averaged over large scales. In order to explain the one simple universe we can see, the inflationary multiverse and accidental universe hypotheses posit an infinite variety of universes with arbitrary amounts of complexity that we cannot see. Variations on the accidental universe, such as those employing the anthropic principle, do nothing to help the situation….Scientific ideas should be simple, explanatory, predictive. The inflationary multiverse as currently understood appears to have none of those properties.[Steinhardt interviewed by John Horgan, op cit--see above]
X. Multiverse proves existence of God!
At this point we can bring in Platinga's Possible words argument. Is it possible that in one of those other universes there would be a God like the one Anselm speaks of? The answer as to be "yes." If not the atheist must show why not. After all they want to push the dictum that the mutliverses must exist because there are infinite chances for them to exist and it's Soooooo illogical to think that they would not. But the same logic applies, there must be a God in one of those infinite universes. And yet it is absurd to think that a necessary being would be limited to just one reality. God has to be God in all reality.
Concluson: All Design arguments are like the glass of water half empty or half full. The believer thinks he/she sees it half full, the skeptic sees it half empty. But the anthropic argument is different, it offers a comparison between designed and undersigned features because we can understand the range of probabilities which might have been to form a non-life bearing universe. We know that the universe did not have to be as it is, and we know that it is extremely improbable. While this may not be absolute proof, it is good probabilistic proof.
Fine Tuning Part 3 Earth-like Planets
Sources
[1] Dennis Overbye, "Far Off Planets Like Earth Dot the Galaxy," space and Cosmos, NY Times. Nov 4, 2013. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/05/science/cosmic-census-finds-billions-of-planets-that-could-be-like-earth.html?_r=0
[2] Phil Plait "The sky may be filled with Earth like Planets,"Slate, nov 4 2013 on line copy:http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2013/11/04/earth_like_exoplanets_planets_like_ours_may_be_very_common.html
[3] Denis Overbye. "Far off Planets like Earth Dot The Galaxy." New York Times (Nov 4,2013) https://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/05/science/cosmic-census-finds-billions-of-planets-that-could-be-like-earth.html (accessed Jine 8.2019)
[4] Sten Odenwald, (Raytheon STX) for the NASA IMAGE/POETRY Education and Public Outreach program
http://sirius-c.ncat.edu/space/Space-Weather/poetry/ask/a11215.html (accessed Jine 8.2019)
[5] John Earman. Bangs, Crunches, Wimpers, and Shrieks: Singularities and Acausalities in Relativistic Spacetimes. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1995., p. 156) So rather than avoid fine-tuning, the multiverse pushes it up a level.
[6] John Horgan, “Physicist slams Cosmic Theory he Helped Conceive,” Scientific American Blogs, December 1, 2014. on line, URL http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/physicist-slams-cosmic-theory-he-helped-conceive/ accessed 10/5/15. Horgan interviews Steinhardt.
[6] John Horgan, “Physicist slams Cosmic Theory he Helped Conceive,” Scientific American Blogs, December 1, 2014. on line, URL http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/physicist-slams-cosmic-theory-he-helped-conceive/ accessed 10/5/15. Horgan interviews Steinhardt.
[7] Jim Holt, "War of the Worlds: Do you believe in God? Or in multiple universes?" Lingua Franca, December 2000/January 2001
[8] Alvin Plantinga, "Darwin, Mind, and Meaning", May/June 1996 issue of Books and Culture
[9] Joseph Hinman, "Occam's Razor Shaves the Multiverse," Metacorck's Blog. (June 12, 2013) http://metacrock.blogspot.com/2013/06/occams-razor-shaves-multiverse.html
(accessed Jine 8.2019)
[10] Quentin R. Smith (1988), "The Uncaused Beginning of the Universe," Philosophy of Science 55:54
Joe: Anytime atheists argue about scientific things with Christians they charge "you don't understand it because you don't agree." I illustrate my understanding of the multiverse argument with the following analogy. The conventional deck of playing cards consists of 52 cards. There is a finite number of cards so it is possible to get the combination called "royal flush" at some point although it is rare because there are 52 different possible cards but the total combinations are limited. Now that means getting 10 Royal flushes in a row is so totally unlikely it almost seems impossible.It's not impossible but extremely unlikely (understated). But suppose we have an infinite number of cards (each card being a chance)? Given an infinite number of chances it is certain one will eventually get 10 royal flushes in a row, although it might take a million years, but hey in evolution we have lots of time.
ReplyDeleteYour complaint about atheists saying you do not understand it would sound more reasonable if your analogy worked better.
The multiverse is not like having an infinite number of cards. An infinite number of cards hardly affects the probability at all (in fact would make it ever so slightly less probable I think).
The multiverse is analogous to an infinite number of games playing out on an infinite number of tables. On a tiny fraction of those tables there will be a hand with a royal flush in the first deal (1 table in every 649,739 as it happens). On a much, much smaller fraction (1 table in every 1.3x10^58), the first ten hands all have a royal flush.
Now suppose whenever a deal is made and there is no royal flush made the table is destroyed...
Each hand, 649,738 tables are destroyed for every table that is not. This is where the anthropic principle kicks in:
After ten hands the players at one of the surviving tables looks around, and sees only tables where 10 royal flushes have been dealt in a row. Wow, what are the odds of that? It must have been God carefully arranging the cards into the right order before they are dealt. There is no other explanation!
By te way, it is important to realise that there are various multiverse theories, and Wiki gives some insight as to the differences.
Joe: Here are my nine reasons MVA is not an automatic take down for FTA
ReplyDeleteIt might help your case if you could count to 10!
Joe: I. Have to know hit rate for life bearing universes
Does not matter. The card analogy works just as well for three of a kind as for a royal flush. Or even just tossing a coin.
In fact, it is you who needs to know the hit rate so you can "prove" it is so unlikely.
Joe: II.We can never know if other universes exist or not.
Bold assertion! I wonder how you can be sure?
However, it does not matter. If the multiverse is plausible, that is enough to defeat the FTA, which implicitly relies on their being no other explanation.
Joe: III. Multiverse Requires Fine Tuning
That depends on the multiverse we are talking about. Steinhardt is talking about universes forming after the Big Bang, what Max Tegmark would call a level I multiverse. The resolution to fine-tuning is a step further back; it is in fact a solution to Steinhardt's fine-tuning problem.
Joe: IV. Multivrese is Inverse of Gambler's fallacy
No it is not, and it is nothing like your analogy. Again, you illustrate why atheists keep saying you do not understand the issue.
Joe: V. Incredulous logic of Multiverse begs question
This is exactly what I was talking about before about the anthropic principle.
Joe: VI. Violation of Occam's Razor
But not as much as invoking an intelligent agent.
Joe: VII. Multiverse is Arbitrary necessity
Look in the mirror ever? You are describing exactly what theists do.
Joe: VIII. Rules Change
You are making a big assumption that the multiverse cannot be detected, based on universes having different laws.
However, let us suppose that is true. That will stop the multiverse becoming mainstream science, but does not stop it negating the FTA. As long as the multiverse is plausible, the FTA is broken, as it implicitly assumes no alternative explanation.
Joe: IX Inflationary Model Not Parsimonious, not simple, explanatory or predictive.
Again this applies to your theory (and more so!).
Joe: X. Multiverse proves existence of God!
That very much depends on your definition of God. If you define God as the God of the Bible, then absolutely not. If you define God as the creator of this universe, then absolutely not. If you mean some super-powerful guy who has no way of interacting with mankind in any way, then sure.
Joe: After all they want to push the dictum that the mutliverses must exist because there are infinite chances for them to exist
Again, this is you failing to understand the argument.
The Pixie said...
ReplyDeleteJoe: Anytime atheists argue about scientific things with Christians they charge "you don't understand it because you don't agree." I illustrate my understanding of the multiverse argument with the following analogy. The conventional deck of playing cards consists of 52 cards. There is a finite number of cards so it is possible to get the combination called "royal flush" at some point although it is rare because there are 52 different possible cards but the total combinations are limited. Now that means getting 10 Royal flushes in a row is so totally unlikely it almost seems impossible.It's not impossible but extremely unlikely (understated). But suppose we have an infinite number of cards (each card being a chance)? Given an infinite number of chances it is certain one will eventually get 10 royal flushes in a row, although it might take a million years, but hey in evolution we have lots of time.
PX: Your complaint about atheists saying you do not understand it would sound more reasonable if your analogy worked better.
It's not all gravy you know:
PX: The multiverse is not like having an infinite number of cards. An infinite number of cards hardly affects the probability at all (in fact would make it ever so slightly less probable I think).
wrong: Finite number of universe 1 = big coincidence that earth is right distance from sun,with many universes odds of finding such a situation go way up,
The multiverse is analogous to an infinite number of games playing out on an infinite number of tables. On a tiny fraction of those tables there will be a hand with a royal flush in the first deal (1 table in every 649,739 as it happens). On a much, much smaller fraction (1 table in every 1.3x10^58), the first ten hands all have a royal flush.
yes game rather than cares better but that is essentially the same concept
PX Now suppose whenever a deal is made and there is no royal flush made the table is destroyed...
Each hand, 649,738 tables are destroyed for every table that is not. This is where the anthropic principle kicks in:
After ten hands the players at one of the surviving tables looks around, and sees only tables where 10 royal flushes have been dealt in a row. Wow, what are the odds of that? It must have been God carefully arranging the cards into the right order before they are dealt. There is no other explanation!
Of course that all assume there these other games which you ca;t prove and we should not have to assume them, the fewer life bearing universe the more amazing the outcome when ode find life. you don't know the hit rate, you can;'assume there are any others,
PX By te way, it is important to realise that there are various multiverse theories, and Wiki gives some insight as to the differences.
OK I imangine the don't change the arguent,:
Joe: wrong: Finite number of universe 1 = big coincidence that earth is right distance from sun,with many universes odds of finding such a situation go way up,
ReplyDeleteThe distance to the sun does not need the multiverse. There are about 100 billion stars in this galaxy, and it is looking like most have planets. The odds of there being one planet that is just the right distance from the sun is pretty close to one - almost a certainty.
This is analagous to the fine tuning of the fundamental constants, except in that case it is the huge number of universes.
Joe: yes game rather than cares better but that is essentially the same concept
It is a very different result, however.
Joe: Of course that all assume there these other games which you ca;t prove and we should not have to assume them,
While your theory assumes God exists. Looks to me like they both have some way to go before either is accepted. However, I am only claiming my hypothesis is plausible.
Joe: the fewer life bearing universe the more amazing the outcome when ode find life.
That is like being amazed someone has won the lottery! And yet it happens ever week.
Joe: you don't know the hit rate,
That is a problem for you. You are saying the hit rate is extraordinarily low, therefore God. I am happy whether ir is high or low.
Joe: you can;'assume there are any others,
And you cannot assume there is God.
Joe: OK I imangine the don't change the arguent,:
You quote Steinhardt. He is talking about multiverses in a different sense - and fine tuning too. The inflation model was developed to explain the "Flatness Problem"; this is fine tuning of the mass-energy density which is just right to give a flat universe. In the inflation model, after the Big Bang, there is rapid inflation, and within that, pocket universes form. Our pocket universe is one with the right mass-energy density for a flat universe. In this version of the multiverse all the universes have the same physical laws.
At a higher level, we possibly have another multiverse, where each universe has its own Big Bang and its own laws and constants, and this explains the fine-tuning Steinhardt was objecting to.
ReplyDeleteJoe: I. Have to know hit rate for life bearing universes
PXDoes not matter. The card analogy works just as well for three of a kind as for a royal flush. Or even just tossing a coin.
It is not enough that you provide an excuse not to believe, you must show that life is passe. As long as I show that life is rare and unexpected I have a reason to believe,That's all I need not proof but a reason,
PXIn fact, it is you who needs to know the hit rate so you can "prove" it is so unlikely.
You must not understand the concept. we know life is highlight improbable. you have to prove that it;s expected.
Joe: II.We can never know if other universes exist or not.
Bold assertion! I wonder how you can be sure?
Everyone knows we have that I;ve quote cosmologists saying so you must prove e can?
say pix please enlighten us with more received opinion.
ReplyDeleteHowever, it does not matter. If the multiverse is plausible, that is enough to defeat the FTA, which implicitly relies on their being no other explanation.
I've explained why that is not the case it's in my original post, you must not understand it. Plausibility is not enough it is only theoretical you must prove that life is actually abundant or you have not answered the argument, you cannot assert that enough universes equal a life bearing one,
Joe: III. Multiverse Requires Fine Tuning
PxThat depends on the multiverse we are talking about. Steinhardt is talking about universes forming after the Big Bang, what Max Tegmark would call a level I multiverse. The resolution to fine-tuning is a step further back; it is in fact a solution to Steinhardt's fine-tuning problem.
I already answered that: you have no mechanism for fine tuning, you can;t prove there is a multiverse or even could be, if you can;t get level 1 how do you get more than that? Steinhardt knows about Tegmark he is not convened,
Joe: IV. Multivrese is Inverse of Gambler's fallacy
No it is not, and it is nothing like your analogy. Again, you illustrate why atheists keep saying you do not understand the issue.
that's big bad brave statement but I did not make that up. The argument of inverse gambler's fallacy was brought by Ian Hacking who is an expert in the field and knows more about it than you do.
Hacking, I. (1987) ‘The Inverse Gambler’s Fallacy: the Argument from Design. The Anthropic
Principle Applied to Wheeler Universes’, Mind, 96, 331-40
quoting Wiki: It is the fallacy of concluding, on the basis of an unlikely outcome of a random process, that the process is likely to have occurred many times before. For example, if one observes a pair of fair dice being rolled and turning up double sixes, it is wrong to suppose that this lends any support to the hypothesis that the dice have been rolled many times before.
Joe: V. Incredulous logic of Multiverse begs question
This is exactly what I was talking about before about the anthropic principle.
That was not a refutation. my essays proves you wrong
Joe: VI. Violation of Occam's Razor
But not as much as invoking an intelligent agent.
wrong,You are showing your ignorance; since Occam was a priest he bleieved in God and he said specifically his razor can't apply to God he did not merely beg the question but he had a real reason (ie God is not multiplied beyond necessity God is necessary).
Joe: VII. Multiverse is Arbitrary necessity
Look in the mirror ever? You are describing exactly what theists do.
Bull shit! you don't even understand the concept. explain arbitrary necessity and it's alternative,
Joe: VIII. Rules Change
You are making a big assumption that the multiverse cannot be detected, based on universes having different laws.
If you can't detect another universe how are you going to know if it has a different law? Steinhardt says they will have different rules.
However, let us suppose that is true. That will stop the multiverse becoming mainstream science, but does not stop it negating the FTA. As long as the multiverse is plausible, the FTA is broken, as it implicitly assumes no alternative explanation.
My original essay shows two reasons why that is false. you have not answered either until you do it's refitted, .
Joe: IX Inflationary Model Not Parsimonious, not simple, explanatory or predictive.
Again this applies to your theory (and more so!).
Bull shit, that's not answer to the argument, it does not refute my criticism of MV and you have given no reason for asserting it.
argumet 10 your answers are nothing but red herrings,none of them refute the argument. This counter balances the BS assertion that the mere possibility of MV disproves FTA.
ReplyDeleteJoe: It is not enough that you provide an excuse not to believe, you must show that life is passe. As long as I show that life is rare and unexpected I have a reason to believe,That's all I need not proof but a reason,
ReplyDeleteWe know life is possible, we are here. The conditions in the universe are just right for life. That is the whole point of fine tuning. And we know that it you have an infinite number of tries, you will eventually hit on even the most unlikely event. Just those two things alone refute the FTA.
That you think a refuted argument is a reason to believe is quite telling.
Joe: You must not understand the concept. we know life is highlight improbable. you have to prove that it;s expected.
It is expected because of the number of tries. Rolling double six on normal dice is improbably - a 1 in 36 chance. Do it ten times and the chances of it happening at least once rises to around 1 in 4. Do it a hundred times and the probability of it NOT happening is 1 in 17.
For fine tuning the initial probability is far lower, but the number of tries is way higher. It is simple maths that a life-sustaining universe is expected with enough tries.
Joe: I've explained why that is not the case it's in my original post, you must not understand it. Plausibility is not enough it is only theoretical you must prove that life is actually abundant or you have not answered the argument, you cannot assert that enough universes equal a life bearing one,
No one is claiming life is abundant.
Joe: I already answered that: you have no mechanism for fine tuning, you can;t prove there is a multiverse or even could be, if you can;t get level 1 how do you get more than that? Steinhardt knows about Tegmark he is not convened,
We do not know if there is a multiverse or not.
Therefore there could be a multiverse.
Joe: that's big bad brave statement but I did not make that up. The argument of inverse gambler's fallacy was brought by Ian Hacking who is an expert in the field and knows more about it than you do.
Here are two published responses to Hacking by other experts in the field:
https://www.jstor.org/stable/2255171?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
https://www.jstor.org/stable/2255172?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
Joe: wrong,You are showing your ignorance; since Occam was a priest he bleieved in God and he said specifically his razor can't apply to God he did not merely beg the question but he had a real reason (ie God is not multiplied beyond necessity God is necessary).
Wow, you really going with Occam was a priest, therefore religious claims get a free pass? Well, I guess we have established that logic and reason are not the basis for your argument!
If God is necessary, then why are you bothering with the FTA? Fact is that the necessity of God is unproven. Of course, as a priest, Occam had a very good motivation for contriving a rationale for why his pet theory gets a pass.
Joe: If you can't detect another universe how are you going to know if it has a different law?
That is the hypothesis. We do not know if it is true or not, but that means it is possible. And so refutes FTA.
Joe: Bull shit, that's not answer to the argument, it does not refute my criticism of MV and you have given no reason for asserting it.
It is a fact that several of your critisisms apply equally to your own pet theory. I agree that does not refute the critisism; maybe we should just reject both, and conclude we do not know.
You mention Steinhardt. It is important to understand he was looking at a very specific instance of fine tuning, one which is rarely, if ever, used by theists.
ReplyDeleteThe mass-energy density of the universe is just right to produce a flat universe. This is also called the flatness problem.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatness_problem
Inflation offers a possible solution. In this scenartio, there is very rapid inflation immediately after the Big Bang, which gives rise to many (infinite?) pocket universes within the wider universe. If the mass-energy density is not just right, these eventually collapse. Any that survive long enough to produce life must necessaily have the right mass-energy density.
Note that all these pocket universes have the same fundamental constants and physical laws, because they are all spawned from the same Big Bang event. This is one version of a multiverse.
The version I am talking about is a greater multiverse, one that contains numerous (infinite?) wider universes, each with its own fundamental constants and physical laws, each with its own Big Bang and possible its own set of pocket universes.
The Pixie said...
ReplyDeleteJoe It is not enough that you provide an excuse not to believe, you must show that life is passe. As long as I show that life is rare and unexpected I have a reason to believe,That's all I need not proof but a reason,
PXWe know life is possible, we are here. The conditions in the universe are just right for life. That is the whole point of fine tuning. And we know that it you have an infinite number of tries, you will eventually hit on even the most unlikely event. Just those two things alone refute the FTA.
No mere possibility is not the issue.I don;t think yo understand the argument, the conditions are not just right for lie, it;s extremely rare. They must hit just right and they must be just rights so it is amzing it happened at all.
PXThat you think a refuted argument is a reason to believe is quite telling.
you don't know what refutation is, just pronouncing your ideology tuer is not refutation,
Joe You must not understand the concept. we know life is highlight improbable. you have to prove that it;s expected.
PXIt is expected because of the number of tries. Rolling double six on normal dice is improbably - a 1 in 36 chance. Do it ten times and the chances of it happening at least once rises to around 1 in 4. Do it a hundred times and the probability of it NOT happening is 1 in 17.
you can't calculate the number of tries because you can't prove the multi verse,
For fine tuning the initial probability is far lower, but the number of tries is way higher. It is simple maths that a life-sustaining universe is expected with enough tries.
there are thousands of targets all have to be hit just right, one try for each universe (a universe is s try)you cannot prove there is more than one,
Joe: I've explained why that is not the case it's in my original post, you must not understand it. Plausibility is not enough it is only theoretical you must prove that life is actually abundant or you have not answered the argument, you cannot assert that enough universes equal a life bearing one,
No one is claiming life is abundant.
that;s why it's a good argument,
Joe: I already answered that: you have no mechanism for fine tuning, you can;t prove there is a multiverse or even could be, if you can;t get level 1 how do you get more than that? Steinhardt knows about Tegmark he is not convened,
We do not know if there is a multiverse or not.
ReplyDeleteTherefore there could be a multiverse.
that does not answer the argent, Life is against the odds that's a reason to believe in God you can't make it not be one
Joe: that's big bad brave statement but I did not make that up. The argument of inverse gambler's fallacy was brought by Ian Hacking who is an expert in the field and knows more about it than you do.
Here are two published responses to Hacking by other experts in the field:
https://www.jstor.org/stable/2255171?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
https://www.jstor.org/stable/2255172?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
that's just more equivocation they don't actually disprove it
Joe wrong,You are showing your ignorance; since Occam was a priest he bleieved in God and he said specifically his razor can't apply to God he did not merely beg the question but he had a real reason (ie God is not multiplied beyond necessity God is necessary).
PX Wow, you really going with Occam was a priest, therefore religious claims get a free pass? Well, I guess we have established that logic and reason are not the basis for your argument!
wow you are really going to try and use Occam when he said it doesn't apply. Obviously my argent was not he's a Priest that he didn't stop being a priest because it the razor doesn't apply to God
PXIf God is necessary, then why are you bothering with the FTA? Fact is that the necessity of God is unproven. Of course, as a priest, Occam had a very good motivation for contriving a rationale for why his pet theory gets a pass.
The fact is you don't understand the concept, He's not talking about God being needed to crates a universe, its talking about God not being dependent, God is not contingent upon anything else for his existence
JOE If you can't detect another universe how are you going to know if it has a different law?
That is the hypothesis. We do not know if it is true or not, but that means it is possible. And so refutes FTA.
Being possible does not defeat FTA. The argument is not there can;t be another universe the argument is life is amazing. Proving life could be passe is not a disproof
Joe: Bull shit, that's not answer to the argument, it does not refute my criticism of MV and you have given no reason for asserting it.
It is a fact that several of your critisisms apply equally to your own pet theory. I agree that does not refute the critisism; maybe we should just reject both, and conclude we do not know.
that's a meaningless comment, you have not refitted anything about the amazing nature of life,
2:27 AM
The Pixie said...
ReplyDeleteYou mention Steinhardt. It is important to understand he was looking at a very specific instance of fine tuning, one which is rarely, if ever, used by theists.
The premise was that his version of inflation was necessary to have MV. But that it rests upon the very thing it wants to eliminate casts it into doubt thus casts MV into doubt. The testament by Steinhardt in argument 9 shows his reticence to accept MV
The mass-energy density of the universe is just right to produce a flat universe. This is also called the flatness problem.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatness_problem
that backs fine tuning, because it;s not a dune deal it didn't have to turn out just right, that argument is used by FT advocates,
Inflation offers a possible solution. In this scenartio, there is very rapid inflation immediately after the Big Bang, which gives rise to many (infinite?) pocket universes within the wider universe. If the mass-energy density is not just right, these eventually collapse. Any that survive long enough to produce life must necessaily have the right mass-energy density.
That's why casting doubt on inflation casts doubt upon refutations of FTA. When Steinhardt says inflation no longer supports those values he is saying inflation has changed to a point where it no longer supports mv
Note that all these pocket universes have the same fundamental constants and physical laws, because they are all spawned from the same Big Bang event. This is one version of a multiverse.
Since they are imaginary they are imaged to have that. You need to prove that inflation still supports MV and that pocket universe has life,
The version I am talking about is a greater multiverse, one that contains numerous (infinite?) wider universes, each with its own fundamental constants and physical laws, each with its own Big Bang and possible its own set of pocket universes.
It also has no empirical backing
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/physicist-slams-cosmic-theory-he-helped-conceive/
ReplyDelete"Lately, Steinhardt has been criticizing inflation and related ideas, notably multiverses, in unusually blunt terms. So I was delighted when he agreed to answer some questions. For related material, see my Q&As with physicists George Ellis, Carlo Rovelli, Edward Witten and Garrett Lisi, as well as articles listed in Further Reading." – John Horgan
Ibid
ReplyDeleteHorgan: You were one of the originators of inflation theory. When and why did you start having doubts about it?
Steinhardt: From the very beginning, even as I was writing my first paper on inflation in 1982, I was concerned that the inflationary picture only works if you finely tune the constants that control the inflationary period. Andy Albrecht and I (and, independently, Andrei Linde) had just discovered the way of having an extended period of inflation end in a graceful exit to a universe filled with hot matter and radiation, the paradigm for all inflationary models since. But the exit came at a cost -- fine-tuning. The whole point of inflation was to get rid of fine-tuning – to explain features of the original big bang model that must be fine-tuned to match observations. The fact that we had to introduce one fine-tuning to remove another was worrisome. This problem has never been resolved.
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But my concerns really grew when I discovered that, due to quantum fluctuation effects, inflation is generically eternal and (as others soon emphasized) this would lead to a multiverse. Inflation was introduced to produce a universe that looks smooth and flat everywhere and that has features everywhere that agree with what we observe. Instead, it turns out that, due to quantum effects, inflation produces a multitude of patches (universes) that span every physically conceivable outcome (flat and curved, smooth and not smooth, isotropic and not isotropic, scale-invariant spectra and not, etc.). Our observable universe would be just one possibility out of a continuous spectrum of outcomes. So, we have not explained any feature of the universe by introducing inflation after all. We have just shifted the problem of the original big bang model (how can we explain our simple universe when there is a nearly infinite variety of possibilities that could emerge from the big bang?) to the inflationary model (how can we explain our simple universe when there is a nearly infinite variety of possibilities could emerge in a multiverse?).
I have to admit that I did not take the multiverse problem seriously at first even though I had been involved in uncovering it. I thought someone would figure out a resolution once the problem was revealed. That was 1983. I was wrong. Unfortunately, what has happened since is that all attempts to resolve the multiverse problem have failed and, in the process, it has become clear that the problem is much stickier than originally imagined. In fact, at this point, some proponents of inflation have suggested that there can be no solution. We should cease bothering to look for one. Instead, we should simply take inflation and the multiverse as fact and accept the notion that the features of the observable universe are accidental: consequences of living in this particular region of the multiverse rather than another.
To me, the accidental universe idea is scientifically meaningless because it explains nothing and predicts nothing. Also, it misses the most salient fact we have learned about large-scale structure of the universe: its extraordinary simplicity when averaged over large scales. In order to explain the one simple universe we can see, the inflationary multiverse and accidental universe hypotheses posit an infinite variety of universes with arbitrary amounts of complexity that we cannot see. Variations on the accidental universe, such as those employing the anthropic principle, do nothing to help the situation.
Scientific ideas should be simple, explanatory, predictive. The inflationary multiverse as currently understood appears to have none of those properties.
Joe: No mere possibility is not the issue.I don;t think yo understand the argument, the conditions are not just right for lie, it;s extremely rare. They must hit just right and they must be just rights so it is amzing it happened at all.
ReplyDeleteObviously! But it you have an infinite numnber of tries, then you will hit upon that one extremely rare conbination sometimes.
Joe: you can't calculate the number of tries because you can't prove the multi verse,
No, I cannot. So?
Joe: there are thousands of targets all have to be hit just right, one try for each universe (a universe is s try)you cannot prove there is more than one,
Right. One try per universe to hit thousands of targets. But with an infinite number of tries (i.e., universes), a tiny, tiny fraction will be successes.
Joe: that does not answer the argent, Life is against the odds that's a reason to believe in God you can't make it not be one
With an infinite number of tries (i.e., universes), the probability of life in at least one becomes a certainty, no matter how unlikely in any one particular universe.
I get the feeling you think every universe has to be a success. That is wrong.
Joe: that's just more equivocation they don't actually disprove it
Of course they do! I have two experts to your one. I win.
Joe: wow you are really going to try and use Occam when he said it doesn't apply.
You think he has copyright on it? You think the patent has not expired? Occam did well, but his razor has been improved (just as the modern theory of evolution has changed a lot since Darwin's day). Sure, Occam wanted to exclude his faith-beliefs, but nowadays we do not give a free pass to any claims - not even Occam's religious claims.
Joe: The fact is you don't understand the concept, He's not talking about God being needed to crates a universe, its talking about God not being dependent, God is not contingent upon anything else for his existence
Okay, so explain why that excludes God from Occam's razor.
Oh, and by the way, the muyltiverse is necessary too, I have decided, so it gets a free pass too.
Joe: Being possible does not defeat FTA.
Yes it does, because the FTA is an argument by default.
The universe is finely tuned
Nothing else explains the fine tuning
Therefore I get to insert my pet theory as the default
The reality of the situation is that we have two unproven hypotheses that explain fine tuning - and there could be others we have not thought of.
Joe: The argument is not there can;t be another universe the argument is life is amazing. Proving life could be passe is not a disproof
So your argument is:
Life is amazing
Therefore God
I assumed it was a bit more sophisticated than that.
It is pretty clear my comment about Steinhardt went over your head. Re-read it. There are two levels of fine-tuing here, and two levels of multiverse to explain it. Until you understand that, you will continue to spout your ignorant nonsense.
Blogger The Pixie said...
ReplyDeleteJoe: No mere possibility is not the issue.I don;t think yo understand the argument, the conditions are not just right for lie, it;s extremely rare. They must hit just right and they must be just rights so it is amzing it happened at all.
Px:Obviously! But it you have an infinite numnber of tries, then you will hit upon that one extremely rare conbination sometimes.
You have no proof that we have infinite chances, ad even so just hitting it rarely still means it's improbable.
Joe: you can't calculate the number of tries because you can't prove the multi verse,
No, I cannot. So?
so you don't know that we have infinite chances,
Joe: there are thousands of targets all have to be hit just right, one try for each universe (a universe is s try)you cannot prove there is more than one,
PX:Right. One try per universe to hit thousands of targets. But with an infinite number of tries (i.e., universes), a tiny, tiny fraction will be successes.
you can't prove we have infinite chances,why should I assume we do?
Joe: that does not answer the argent, Life is against the odds that's a reason to believe in God you can't make it not be one
Px:With an infinite number of tries (i.e., universes), the probability of life in at least one becomes a certainty, no matter how unlikely in any one particular universe.
To bad you cant prove we have infinite tries
PxI get the feeling you think every universe has to be a success. That is wrong.
the more a universe hits life the more ordinary life is,The less fixed the game appears. The more rare life is the more hitting it seems amazing and thus fixed. So my thinking is the opposite of what you think I think,I actually think it has to fail a lot for the FTA to work. You don't know the hit rate. It might fail a lot.
if you were a vice cop in charge of daring fixed gambling in a city. You found a game that seemed fixed and the people running it said "we can't be fixed because we set up games all over town one of them must hit a very high run of luck" would you accept that?
Joe: that's just more equivocation they don't actually disprove it
PX:Of course they do! I have two experts to your one. I win.
your experts are both making the same fallacy my expert is exposing,
Joe wow you are really going to try and use Occam when he said it doesn't apply.
ReplyDeletePXYou think he has copyright on it? You think the patent has not expired?
You tried to apply the dictum "don't multiply entities beyond necessity" to God on the premise that necessity means "X is needed to crate a universe?" when that's not what necessity means in that context so it can't apply to God. It does not fit the logic.
PxOccam did well, but his razor has been improved (just as the modern theory of evolution has changed a lot since Darwin's day). Sure, Occam wanted to exclude his faith-beliefs, but nowadays we do not give a free pass to any claims - not even Occam's religious claims.
It has not been improved the priceless is the same, may modern application on the basis of understanding necessity to mean the need for a creator is a is mis-application of the principle.
Joe The fact is you don't understand the concept, He's not talking about God being needed to crates a universe, its talking about God not being dependent, God is not contingent upon anything else for his existence
Okay, so explain why that excludes God from Occam's razor.
That is what Occam;s razor is about He was a Tomist so he believed in necessity and contingency as the basic framework for existence, don't multipy entities beyond necessity eans
Quote:
"Ockham removes all need for entities in seven of the traditional Aristotelian ten categories; all that remain are entities in the categories of substance and quality, and a few entities in the category of relation, which Ockham thinks are required for theological reasons pertaining to the Trinity, the Incarnation and the Eucharist, even though our natural cognitive powers would see no reason for them at all. As is to be expected, the ultimate success of Ockham's program is a matter of considerable dispute."[2] [Spade, Paul Vincent and Panaccio, Claude, "William of Ockham", The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (Fall 2011 Edition), Edward N. Zalta (ed.), URL = . Fall 2011 (substantive content change) [new author(s): Spade, Paul Vincent; Panaccio, Claude]
read my essay Occam's razor shaves the MV
PXOh, and by the way, the muyltiverse is necessary too, I have decided, so it gets a free pass too.
Mock things you don't understand, you have been caught using an argument you don't get so make up for it by ridiculing the idea
Joe: Being possible does not defeat FTA.
ReplyDeletePX Claude]Yes it does, because the FTA is an argument by default.
No it;s not, it's a tie breaker,so that proves you really don;t understand it,
PXThe universe is finely tuned
Nothing else explains the fine tuning
Therefore I get to insert my pet theory as the default
that's smother instance of getting caught using an argument you don't understand so you turn to make fun of the idea itself, but if you really understood it why did you use it if it;s so dumb?
PXThe reality of the situation is that we have two unproven hypotheses that explain fine tuning - and there could be others we have not thought of.
you can;t argue against an idea on the basis of possible arguments we don't know about. Fine Ruining is not unproven its well proven, We know FT exists
Joe: The argument is not there can;t be another universe the argument is life is amazing. Proving life could be passe is not a disproof
So your argument is:
Life is amazing
Therefore God
It's a good reason to believe in God because naturalistic forces alone don't explain it.since it is a tie breaker it only has to add credence to other arguments,
I assumed it was a bit more sophisticated than that.
It is pretty clear my comment about Steinhardt went over your head. Re-read it. There are two levels of fine-tuing here, and two levels of multiverse to explain it. Until you understand that, you will continue to spout your ignorant nonsense.
I quoted a whole page from his interview did you even read it? he clearly shoots down inflation and MV.
You have been disproved,so you repair to "you don;t understand I; smarter than you because i;m an atheist, atheist version of no one knows the mind of God.
Joe: You have no proof that we have infinite chances, ad even so just hitting it rarely still means it's improbable.
ReplyDeleteAnd you have no proof of God! Once again you demand proof from your opponents, but only offer "warrant" for your own pet theory. Why so afraid of a level playing field?
Joe: You have no proof that we have infinite chances, ad even so just hitting it rarely still means it's improbable.
Once again you prove you do not understand the argument. An infinite number of universes is what the multiverse hypothesis proposes. On the one hand we have the unproven God-did-it hypothesis, and on the other hand we have the unproven multiverse - with infinite universes - hypothesis (and there may well be other solutions to FT too).
You cannot declare the God-did-it hypothesis to be the winner because we have no way to pick between the two.
Joe: so you don't know that we have infinite chances,
No, I do not know that. It is an unproven hypothesis that explains the data. Just like your God-did-it hypothesis.
Joe: you can't prove we have infinite chances,why should I assume we do?
And you cannot prove God, so why assume he exists? Both are unproven hypotheses that explain the data.
Joe: To bad you cant prove we have infinite tries
And too bad you cannot prove God. Both are unproven hypotheses that explain the data.
Joe: the more a universe hits life the more ordinary life is,The less fixed the game appears. The more rare life is the more hitting it seems amazing and thus fixed. So my thinking is the opposite of what you think I think,I actually think it has to fail a lot for the FTA to work. You don't know the hit rate. It might fail a lot.
I agree it has to fail a lot for the FTA to work. However, the success rate how not matter to the multiverse hypothesis.
Therefore it is up to YOU to establish the hit rate.
Joe: if you were a vice cop in charge of daring fixed gambling in a city. You found a game that seemed fixed and the people running it said "we can't be fixed because we set up games all over town one of them must hit a very high run of luck" would you accept that?
The way to approach it is to consider the two probabilities. What is the probability of such good hands for the gangsters? What is the probability that they are cheating? You need to make an assessment of both, and only if the latter is much higher can you conclude it was fixed.
Joe: You tried to apply the dictum "don't multiply entities beyond necessity" to God on the premise that necessity means "X is needed to crate a universe?" when that's not what necessity means in that context so it can't apply to God. It does not fit the logic.
In that context, necessary means what is required to explain the data. If one explanation invokes fairies and another does not, then go with the one that does not, as the fairies are not necessary to explain the data. It one explanation invokes God and another does not, then go with the one that does not, as God are not necessary to explain the data.
Joe: It has not been improved the priceless is the same, may modern application on the basis of understanding necessity to mean the need for a creator is a is mis-application of the principle.
It has been improved. We no longer give God a free pass.
Joe: that's smother instance of getting caught using an argument you don't understand so you turn to make fun of the idea itself, but if you really understood it why did you use it if it;s so dumb?
So lay out your FTA formally, step-by-step. The best I can find in your posts is this:
the universe must be structured in very exact ways to produce life.
It's so exacting as to be totally improbable.
Because it's so improbable that gives us a good reason to think the game is fixed.
The argument you presented in your first post on CADRE about the subject fails to mention God! No wonder I do not under your argument!
Joe: It's a good reason to believe in God because naturalistic forces alone don't explain it.since it is a tie breaker it only has to add credence to other arguments,
ReplyDeletePete: What colour do you think the next car we see will be?
Jack: Definitely blue.
Pete: What? How can you be so sure?
Jack: Well, I have seen blue cars before so I have good reason to believe it could be a blue car. And you cannot prove it will be a red car, or a black car or whatever. So therefore I have warrant for being certain it will be a blue car.
In that context, necessary means what is required to explain the data. If one explanation invokes fairies and another does not, then go with the one that does not, as the fairies are not necessary to explain the data. It one explanation invokes God and another does not, then go with the one that does not, as God are not necessary to explain the data.
ReplyDeleteBut if one explanation for the same data requires "One God" and another requires "Infinite number of universes," the latter seems to be the much more flagrant violation of Ockham's Razor.
But if one explanation for the same data requires "One God" and another requires "Infinite number of universes," the latter seems to be the much more flagrant violation of Ockham's Razor.
ReplyDeleteexcellent point Jim. It's not a mere technicality. There is a huge difference in the kind of necessity that pertains to contingency and the kind that deals with the need to appeal to a creator.
The Pixie said...
ReplyDeleteJoe: You have no proof that we have infinite chances, ad even so just hitting it rarely still means it's improbable.
And you have no proof of God! Once again you demand proof from your opponents, but only offer "warrant" for your own pet theory. Why so afraid of a level playing field?
you are arguing in circles, I already nixed proof, so that;not an issue. Obviously FT is a recon to believe.
Joe: You have no proof that we have infinite chances, ad even so just hitting it rarely still means it's improbable.
Once again you prove you do not understand the argument. An infinite number of universes is what the multiverse hypothesis proposes. On the one hand we have the unproven God-did-it hypothesis, and on the other hand we have the unproven multiverse - with infinite universes - hypothesis (and there may well be other solutions to FT too).
That is a meaningless and silly answer. You state it's finite chases as though that means something I've already refuted that,
you are falling back on atheist platitudes That proves you have lost and you know you have,.
The Pixie said...
ReplyDeleteJoe: You have no proof that we have infinite chances, ad even so just hitting it rarely still means it's improbable.
And you have no proof of God! Once again you demand proof from your opponents, but only offer "warrant" for your own pet theory. Why so afraid of a level playing field?
you are arguing in circles, I already nixed proof, so that;not an issue. Obviously FT is a recon to believe.
Joe: You have no proof that we have infinite chances, ad even so just hitting it rarely still means it's improbable.
Once again you prove you do not understand the argument. An infinite number of universes is what the multiverse hypothesis proposes. On the one hand we have the unproven God-did-it hypothesis, and on the other hand we have the unproven multiverse - with infinite universes - hypothesis (and there may well be other solutions to FT too).
That is a meaningless and silly answer. You state it's infinite chases as though that means something I've already refuted that. If I was trying to prove God exists then the idea that somewhere there must be one universe with life would beat that argument.But I nixed that. my only claim is I have good reason to believe in God; that reason is that life is very rare and super improbable. Just having a possibility of one lie-bearing universe does not change that idea, because life is still pretty rare at that point. That's even assuming there is a MV which you can't prove.
Obviously I understand the idea because I just refitted it, you have not answered my idea you don't understand it,
you are falling back on atheist platitudes That proves you have lost and you know you have.
Remember in Robin hood the other guy hits the center of the bull's eye and Robin hits his arrow and splits it up the middle? The Sharif already assumed the winner would be Robin because he's the best. It was entirely in the realm of possibility that someone else other than Robbin could make such a snot, but it was extremely unlikely that anyone else could.
ReplyDeleteThe Sharif really did have a good reason to suspect that the stranger was Robin hood, Although his shot did not prove he was Robin hood.
7th: But if one explanation for the same data requires "One God" and another requires "Infinite number of universes," the latter seems to be the much more flagrant violation of Ockham's Razor.
ReplyDeleteI disagree. Occam's razor is not about the number of things, but the number of different things. A theory that invokes a thousand fairies is to be preferred over one that invokes five fairies and five goblin, because the former only introduces fairies, the latter introduces both fairies and goblins.
Or to put it another way, we should not reject germ theory on the basis that it proposes such a huge number of germs in the world.
Joe: excellent point Jim. It's not a mere technicality. There is a huge difference in the kind of necessity that pertains to contingency and the kind that deals with the need to appeal to a creator.
Again, you are getting confused asbout what "necessary" means in Occam's razor.
Joe previously: You have no proof that we have infinite chances, ad even so just hitting it rarely still means it's improbable.
ReplyDeletePix: And you have no proof of God! Once again you demand proof from your opponents, but only offer "warrant" for your own pet theory. Why so afraid of a level playing field?
Joe: you are arguing in circles, I already nixed proof, so that;not an issue. Obviously FT is a recon to believe.
It was YOU who brought up proof. You are - as usual - demanding proof from your opponents, and yet admitting you have merely "reason to believe" for your own claims.
Joe: That is a meaningless and silly answer. You state it's finite chases as though that means something I've already refuted that,
Where have you refuted it? Do you think the chances are zero? I have certainly seen no argument for that. Otherwise, all you have done is show your own failure to understand.
Joe: you are falling back on atheist platitudes That proves you have lost and you know you have,.
No idea where that comes from. Desperation?
Joe: That is a meaningless and silly answer. You state it's infinite chases as though that means something I've already refuted that.
You have proven that there cannot be a multiverse with infinite universes? Can you show me where, because I doubt that.
Joe: If I was trying to prove God exists then the idea that somewhere there must be one universe with life would beat that argument.But I nixed that.
What?!? There is one universe with life. This one!
Joe: my only claim is I have good reason to believe in God; that reason is that life is very rare and super improbable. Just having a possibility of one lie-bearing universe does not change that idea, because life is still pretty rare at that point. That's even assuming there is a MV which you can't prove.
Again, we have two hypotheses. God and multiverse. Both explain fine tuning. Neither are currently supported by evidence.
If you want to use that to prop up your faith, well that indicates how shaky your faith is more than anything else.
Joe: Remember in Robin hood the other guy hits the center of the bull's eye
Do you think that actually happened? Let us suppose it did.
The sheriff was looking at a single event. For that event he had two competing hypotheses:
1. The winner was Robin Hood
2. The winner was someone else
Given Robin Hood was known to be so good, was local to the area and was likely to turn up at the event, the probability of 1 was high. The probability of another archer being as good is high, but being someone the sheriff did not know makes the probability of 2 rather lower.
It is not really about the probability of getting a bull's eye that is the issue (though it would factor in if you calculated it).
I disagree. Occam's razor is not about the number of things, but the number of different things. A theory that invokes a thousand fairies is to be preferred over one that invokes five fairies and five goblin, because the former only introduces fairies, the latter introduces both fairies and goblins.
ReplyDeleteIt depends on what's to be explained. It's not about the number of different things but what's needed to explain something. Between two competing hypotheses that make the same predictions, you pick the one with the fewest assumptions.
Or to put it another way, we should not reject germ theory on the basis that it proposes such a huge number of germs in the world.
We pick germ theory because it makes correct predictions, unlike its competing hypotheses. That's not true of MV theory. To posit an infinite number of universes to explain one universe seems much more extravagant than theism, at least in certain ways. In other ways, as far as requiring suspension of naturalistic assumptions, theism is more extravagant.
The Pixie said...
ReplyDelete7th: But if one explanation for the same data requires "One God" and another requires "Infinite number of universes," the latter seems to be the much more flagrant violation of Ockham's Razor.
I disagree. Occam's razor is not about the number of things, but the number of different things. A theory that invokes a thousand fairies is to be preferred over one that invokes five fairies and five goblin, because the former only introduces fairies, the latter introduces both fairies and goblins.
Or to put it another way, we should not reject germ theory on the basis that it proposes such a huge number of germs in the world.
that's just anti God, You have a special reason to reject God in particular, namely due to ideological hang-ups.
Joe: excellent point Jim. It's not a mere technicality. There is a huge difference in the kind of necessity that pertains to contingency and the kind that deals with the need to appeal to a creator.
PXAgain, you are getting confused about what "necessary" means in Occam's razor.
wrong You are! You are confusing Occam,who was actually a Thomistic thinker, with modern atheism. Occam really was talking about ontological necessity because he was involved in the Thomistic discussion, I've already documented that with established scholars.
1:55 AM
Joe previously: You have no proof that we have infinite chances, ad even so just hitting it rarely still means it's improbable.
ReplyDeletePix: And you have no proof of God! Once again you demand proof from your opponents, but only offer "warrant" for your own pet theory. Why so afraid of a level playing field?
again:One must prove ones argument. That's different from saying prove God. I don't argue I can prove God I argue I have reason to believe in God, there is a Big difference. Yes you must prove a MV because you argue that we have multiple chances and you have no other mechanism for making that claim.
Joe: you are arguing in circles, I already nixed proof, so that;not an issue. Obviously FT is a reason to believe.that means proof of God's existence not proof of what you argue,
PXIt was YOU who brought up proof. You are - as usual - demanding proof from your opponents, and yet admitting you have merely "reason to believe" for your own claims.
You have given no reason to believe we have multiverse. No reasom to believe that we have any chance other than this universe we are in for life. A mere possibility does not cut it.
I think I just explained that, you must prove what you argue,but I don't have to argue that I can prove God exists. I argue instead I have good reason to believe God exists, You on the other hand do argue that we have multiple chances at a life bearing universe,
Joe: That is a meaningless and silly answer. You state it's finite chases as though that means something I've already refuted that,
PX Where have you refuted it? Do you think the chances are zero? I have certainly seen no argument for that. Otherwise, all you have done is show your own failure to understand.
we only know for certain that we have one chance this universe,
PXYou have [not?] proven that there cannot be a multiverse with infinite universes? Can you show me where, because I doubt that.
ReplyDeleteNo you must prove there is one. We don't know that. We only know about this universe we are in that's all we know,
Joe: If I was trying to prove God exists then the idea that somewhere there must be one universe with life would beat that argument.But I nixed that.
What?!? There is one universe with life. This one!
I nixed proving the existence of God
Joe: my only claim is I have good reason to believe in God; that reason is that life is very rare and super improbable. Just having a possibility of one life-bearing universe does not change that idea, because life is still pretty rare at that point. That's even assuming there is a MV which you can't prove.
Again, we have two hypotheses. God and multiverse. Both explain fine tuning. Neither are currently supported by evidence.
wrong. I have many good reasons to Believe in God, [even though it;s still an open question--at least for you] you can;t give me one good reason not to bleieve and you can;t prove MV.
If you want to use that to prop up your faith, well that indicates how shaky your faith is more than anything else.
what does? I think the context of that statement is lost.
Joe: Remember in Robin hood the other guy hits the center of the bull's eye
PX Do you think that actually happened? Let us suppose it did.
OMG! come on you are too intelligent to conclude that,it's a [explicate deleted] hypothetical/analogical example
The sheriff was looking at a single event. For that event he had two competing hypotheses:
1. The winner was Robin Hood
2. The winner was someone else
Given Robin Hood was known to be so good, was local to the area and was likely to turn up at the event, the probability of 1 was high. The probability of another archer being as good is high, but being someone the sheriff did not know makes the probability of 2 rather lower.
exactly, that;s my point if they knew of a large group of expert archers known to be in the area then sheriff is must Robin hood happy. Given the low probability that the winner would be other than RH, it was good police work, for the middle ages,
It is not really about the probability of getting a bull's eye that is the issue (though it would factor in if you calculated it).
right, it's archer availability. but what complicates our discussion is that I am not willing to accept that just having other universe means life would be a regular production on then, it may be there is another life bearing universe that's not enough to negate the fixed game aspect of the FTA.
suppose we say there is an archer in Japan so good he makes shots like that all the time,the Sharif still has good reason to assume the winner is Robin hood since not likely a guy from Japan would be in the era,
7th: It depends on what's to be explained. It's not about the number of different things but what's needed to explain something. Between two competing hypotheses that make the same predictions, you pick the one with the fewest assumptions.
ReplyDeleteExactly. we are looking at a hypothesis that assumes the multiverse and one that assumes God. Seems pretty equal.
7th: We pick germ theory because it makes correct predictions, unlike its competing hypotheses. That's not true of MV theory.
MV predicts that there will be a universe that can sustain life; prediction fulfilled. Just like the God hypothesis.
7th: To posit an infinite number of universes to explain one universe seems much more extravagant than theism, at least in certain ways. In other ways, as far as requiring suspension of naturalistic assumptions, theism is more extravagant.
Agreed.
Joe: that's just anti God, You have a special reason to reject God in particular, namely due to ideological hang-ups.
ReplyDeleteThat is just anti-multiverse. You have a special reason to reject the multiverse in particular, namely your faith that it was God.
I am the one who freely admits both hypothesis are valid. I am NOT rejecting God. You are rejecting the multiverse.
Joe: wrong You are! You are confusing Occam,who was actually a Thomistic thinker, with modern atheism. Occam really was talking about ontological necessity because he was involved in the Thomistic discussion, I've already documented that with established scholars.
As I said before, Occam's razor has been improved since his day. You can read about the modern definition here:
https://philosophyterms.com/occams-razor/
Note that it does not give religion a free pass and note that there is nothing about ontological necessity there.
If you want to claim that your hypothesis is the one that the Christian monk, William of Ockham would have prefered, then I suspect you are right. But I also suspect he would agree with creationists that the world is only a few thousand years old and was created by God in six days.
Your hypothesis is not the one indicated by the modern Occam's razor.
Joe: again:One must prove ones argument. That's different from saying prove God. I don't argue I can prove God I argue I have reason to believe in God, there is a Big difference. Yes you must prove a MV because you argue that we have multiple chances and you have no other mechanism for making that claim.
ReplyDeleteIncredible!
My hypothesis is that the multiverse explains fine tuning, so you demand that I prove the multiverse exists.
Your hypothesis is that God explains fine tuning, but of course, you only have to provide a "reason to believe in God".
As you say, "a Big difference". You are gaming the rules to ensure your pet theory wins. And you are so blatant about it!
Joe: You have given no reason to believe we have multiverse. No reasom to believe that we have any chance other than this universe we are in for life. A mere possibility does not cut it.
As I keep saying, we have to competing hypothesis.
Your faith has so blinkered you that you are unable to see that. You approach this with the certainty that God exists, and that blinds you to seeing the bigger picture. The FTA is not an argument for God, it is a way for believers to prop up their faith.
Your faith makes you sure God is right and multiverse is wrong, and so you will happily game the argument to ensure that that is the outcome. And you are so sure you are right you do not even realise you are doing it.
Joe: exactly, that;s my point if they knew of a large group of expert archers known to be in the area then sheriff is must Robin hood happy. Given the low probability that the winner would be other than RH, it was good police work, for the middle ages,
ReplyDeleteI am going to go back on what I said before. I said this:
The sheriff was looking at a single event. For that event he had two competing hypotheses:
1. The winner was Robin Hood
2. The winner was someone else
So far, so good. The sheriff presumably believed Robin Hood was the only expert archer in the area. The second hypothesis is not that there was another expert in the area, but that a poorer archer just got lucky.
Robin Hood is an expert so gets the bullseye every time. The average competitor perhaps gets a bullseye once every twenty arrows.
If you have twenty competitors (besides Robin Hood), what is the probability that at least one of them gets a bullseye? About 64%, it turns out.
If someone gets the bullseye, is it more likely to be Robin Hood or just some random guy? It is hard to calculate the probability of Robin Hood turning up, but it seems that they are comparable. On the basis of the competition alone, this is insufficient evidence.
Of course, in the Disney version, the sheriff rips off Robin's disguise. As a starting point for an investugation this is a good plan, as long as it can be collaborated with further evidence.
The Pixie said...
ReplyDeleteJoe: that's just anti God, You have a special reason to reject God in particular, namely due to ideological hang-ups.
That is just anti-multiverse. You have a special reason to reject the multiverse in particular, namely your faith that it was God.
Obviously not since I've said the MV can exist but not have many life bearing planets. Now if there was one LBP every 100,000 planets they would still be infinite if the number of universes was infinite. The problem is notall universes produced have to exist alongside the others. Uni's can come to be and cease to be in an infinite stream in temp rial universe,that means there would only be a few LBP's at any given time,
I am the one who freely admits both hypothesis are valid. I am NOT rejecting God. You are rejecting the multiverse.
what i just said
Joe: wrong You are! You are confusing Occam,who was actually a Thomistic thinker, with modern atheism. Occam really was talking about ontological necessity because he was involved in the Thomistic discussion, I've already documented that with established scholars.
As I said before, Occam's razor has been improved since his day. You can read about the modern definition here:
https://philosophyterms.com/occams-razor/
you can;t argue that it's been improved and then argue that he argued it the right Your way to begin with. what you call Improved is really just made to serve your ideology
Note that it does not give religion a free pass and note that there is nothing about ontological necessity there.
you have no idea what you are talking about. he would not have to spell out his basic assumptions that way because everyone held the
If you want to claim that your hypothesis is the one that the Christian monk, William of Ockham would have prefered, then I suspect you are right. But I also suspect he would agree with creationists that the world is only a few thousand years old and was created by God in six days.
you tried to argue that Occam would have said God not necessary give it up he would not have said it in fact he refutted that explicit,
Your hypothesis is not the one indicated by the modern Occam's razor.
there is no modern occams razor there are people who fomenet an ideology of parsimony that is not the razor
the article you link to was not written by anyone who read Occam. He;s just assuming its the same because the shorthand has developed of claiming Occam's razor the root of parsimony.
ReplyDeleteThe Pixie said...
Joe: again:One must prove ones argument. That's different from saying prove God. I don't argue I can prove God I argue I have reason to believe in God, there is a Big difference. Yes you must prove a MV because you argue that we have multiple chances and you have no other mechanism for making that claim.
PXIncredible!
You simply know nothing about logic or argumentation.
PXMy hypothesis is that the multiverse explains fine tuning, so you demand that I prove the multiverse exists.
(1)You never answered my argument about mechanism, your notion of FT is not based upon mechanism that could balance and providence life by choice. your mechanism total is accident you can;t show that would yield life in any significant proportions.
(2) you have changed the basis of our discussion.You are trying to move the gold post. the real argument what we are really discussing is my argument not yours. you try to make yourself the affirmative you are not the initiator of the propitiation, I am. the preposition is that FT gives a good reason to believe in God. that means you must prove MV real or you can;t negate FTA. Now even if you do that I still have arguments as to why that doesn't negate the FTA.
Your hypothesis is that God explains fine tuning, but of course, you only have to provide a "reason to believe in God".
yea--because my ordinal argument is FTA - reason to believe not actual proof.
As you say, "a Big difference". You are gaming the rules to ensure your pet theory wins. And you are so blatant about it!
that's such utter BS. what makes it really absurd is I've argued this for years,
Joe: You have given no reason to believe we have multiverse. No reasom to believe that we have any chance other than this universe we are in for life. A mere possibility does not cut it.
As I keep saying, we have to competing hypothesis.
we are not even in the same debate, we have totally different ideas of what we are doing,
Your faith has so blinkered you that you are unable to see that. You approach this with the certainty that God exists, and that blinds you to seeing the bigger picture. The FTA is not an argument for God, it is a way for believers to prop up their faith.
you want the feeling of victory over an idea that challenges your ideology but you cam;t beat my arguments so your are trying to shape the debate to give you the advantages,
Your faith makes you sure God is right and multiverse is wrong, and so you will happily game the argument to ensure that that is the outcome. And you are so sure you are right you do not even realise you are doing it.
apparenlty this has so upset you you have taken to repeating yourself.
no one is reading this stuff
ReplyDeletewe arguing about the basic nature of what the discussion is about, it time to close it down. I will be talking about this latter stuff on the other blog
ReplyDeleteJoe: Obviously not since I've said the MV can exist but not have many life bearing planets. Now if there was one LBP every 100,000 planets they would still be infinite if the number of universes was infinite. The problem is notall universes produced have to exist alongside the others. Uni's can come to be and cease to be in an infinite stream in temp rial universe,that means there would only be a few LBP's at any given time,
ReplyDeleteWe only need one!
It does not matter when it happened, whether the universes exist along side each other. Even an infinite number of sequential universes would be enough to explain fine tuning.
Some universes presumably come and go qickly; they do not have the right set opf conditions to last. Some last longer. We know that there is one set of conditions that will allow a universe to exist for several billion years because we live in it.
Joe: you can;t argue that it's been improved and then argue that he argued it the right Your way to begin with. what you call Improved is really just made to serve your ideology
What I call improved is to make it ideologically neutral. To stop it giving Occam's ideology a free pass.
Joe: you have no idea what you are talking about. he would not have to spell out his basic assumptions that way because everyone held the
So find a modern definition of Occam's razor that supports your position that God gets a free pass or that necessary means that in this context.
I already linked to this one, and it certainly does NOT support your claims.
https://philosophyterms.com/occams-razor/
Joe: you tried to argue that Occam would have said God not necessary give it up he would not have said it in fact he refutted that explicit,
No, I said the razor has been improve, so now it does not give God a free pass.
Joe: there is no modern occams razor there are people who fomenet an ideology of parsimony that is not the razor
Great, so any philosophical discussion of Occam's razor will support your position, right? Should be easy for you to find an example.
Joe: the article you link to was not written by anyone who read Occam. He;s just assuming its the same because the shorthand has developed of claiming Occam's razor the root of parsimony.
Interesting. So you are tacitly conceding that the modern idea of the razor is significantly different to what Occam proposed. It must be if you can tell this web page about it was written by someone unfamiliar with Occam's work.
Joe: (1)You never answered my argument about mechanism, your notion of FT is not based upon mechanism that could balance and providence life by choice. your mechanism total is accident you can;t show that would yield life in any significant proportions.
ReplyDeleteSure I did. A higher level multiverse explains the fine-tuning of fundamental laws of nature required to produce the multiverse that explains the fine-tuning of the mass-energy density.
Joe (2) you have changed the basis of our discussion.You are trying to move the gold post. the real argument what we are really discussing is my argument not yours. you try to make yourself the affirmative you are not the initiator of the propitiation, I am. the preposition is that FT gives a good reason to believe in God. that means you must prove MV real or you can;t negate FTA. Now even if you do that I still have arguments as to why that doesn't negate the FTA.
Yes, I have moved the goalposts. You have carefully set the multiverse goalposts on the hilltop, and the God goalposts at the bottom of the valley. I have moved them so they are both on the same level.
See, we have two proposed solutions to fine tuning - and there could be others. You do not get to say that yours is priveledged, so wins by default.
If you want to play the "warrant" bait-and-switch, then fine tuning is just as much "warrant" to believe in the multiverse as in God.
Joe: we are not even in the same debate, we have totally different ideas of what we are doing,
So very true. I am trying to play the game on a level playing field. You are still trying to play it on the side of a steep hill.
Joe: we arguing about the basic nature of what the discussion is about, it time to close it down.
Okay, fair enough. I will stop here.
Nice post about your brother by the way.