Sunday, March 24, 2019

God and The Deep Strictures of Being: Prolegomena part 1

Image result for Heraclitus

Heraclitus  (c. 535 – c. 475 BCE)
 purveyor of the Logos


For the next few weeks I will develop my Deep Strictures argument (Transcendental Signifiers). It beings with a Prolegomena so this is before we are in a position to make an argument,It;s just laying the ground work, But it offers a new God argument no one else makes.

So what is a TranscendentalSignifier and why is it a problem? In semiotic terms, the TS is the ultimate source of meaning, the eye watching over things, saying what signifies what. The history of western philosophy, according to Derrida, has involved the belief in and search for The Transcendental Signifier, the Signifier of all signifiers, the concept that stabilizes the system of meaning and limits interpretive possibility. Call it Truth or the Platonic Ideal or G-d, or Man, or The Unconscious, or, for our purposes, Haman.https://www.slideshare.net/hrobbins01/latke-hamentaschen-debate

Western thought has always assumed a logos, a first principle that gives meaning to all ambiguity and grounds all knowledge and norms. This concept has been embodied in many different ideas, collectively Jacques Derrida calls them “transcendental signifiers” (TS). These differing notions all point to a single idea, the one thing that is necessary and universal that orders and gives meaning to all signs and signification. That is the thing signified by the words used to mark it, the transcendental signified (TS). Humanity has been unable to find any matching candidate for this post in modern thought primarily because we gave up the idea of a logos. Modern science has a sort of truncated logos in the idea that empirical observations will eliminate all hypotheses until just the true one's are left and that will give us the understanding we seek. That will never happen because it cannot; science can't render first principles in areas like ethics and morality and it can't delve into the spiritual, the phenomenological, the existential or anything not immediately verifiable empirically. Postmodern thought has given up on the whole project. They reject the concept of truth itself and seek not to understand anything beyond their self referential language game. Yet in rejecting the concept of truth, and tearing down hierarchies, they create their transcendental signifier differance, (with an a)[1]. Only the concept of God fits the parameters for the TS. God offers the best explanation for hierarchical ordering, thus offers the most likely correlate for TS. Or to put it another way, mind is the missing dimension that enables the TS to unite human experience of being with understanding. That in itself should warrant belief in God.
Human thought in general and Western thought in particular has always sought an ἀρχή, a first principle, a logos that will sum up everything and give meaning to reality. The Greek notion of the logos, which was always about finding a way to understand reality through observing the world: “...Heraclitus of Ephesus (540-480BC) succeeded best in giving mythos and logos a philosophical meaning in a new world structure and putting man in a position to find his rightful place in it. The problem...to establish the reality of observable phenomena, to uncover its governing force, and to teach man the proper way of relating himself to both.[2] The notion, in one form or another, was deeply rooted among the Greeks: the stoics, for example, used it to mean the divine animating principle pervading the universe.[3] William James, in The Varieties of Religious Experience, reflections upon Kant's notion of categories, “Ideas of pure reason,” that ground all our ideas and support all concrete knowledge even though they themselves are not given in sense data.[4]
...such ideas and others equally abstract, form the background for all our facts, the fountain-head of all the possibilities we conceive of...everything we know is what it is by sharing in the nature of one of these abstractions.We can never look directly at them for they are bodiless and featureless and footless, but we grasp all other things by their means and in handling the real world we should be stricken with helplessness in just so far forth as we might lose these mental objects, these adjectives, these adverbs and predicates and heads of classification and conception.[5] 
James argues that these abstract notions is one of the “cardinal facts” of our human existence. We can't escape them, we can't deal with life without them. He talks about Plato and Emerson as examples of thinkers whose grasp of such abstractions defined the nature of ideas in such a way as to both define thought and infuse ideas with a sense of the divine, “treat the moral structure of the universe as a fact worthy of worship.”;'[6]  Such notions, such links between the concrete and the abstract are replete in human history. Around the turn of the nineteenth into the twentieth century James observes this kind of transcendentalism moving into a scientific venue. “Science in many minds is genuinely taking the place of religion.”[7] He finds schools of thought that saw the Greek gods as reflections of the abstract ideas. While in the current age we find scientists openly talking about science replacing religion or providing a short cut to God.
The rise of Christianity saw a clear interpretation of the logos. In the rise of modern science we saw the Christian thesis discorded but another logos was put in it's place, in the form of the laws of physics.
It may seem bizarre, but in my opinion science offers a surer path to God than religion…People take it for granted that the physical world is both ordered and intelligible. The underlying order in nature-the laws of physics-are simply accepted as given, as brute facts. Nobody asks where they came from; at least they do not do so in polite company. However, even the most atheistic scientist accepts as an act of faith that the universe is not absurd, that there is a rational basis to physical existence manifested as law-like order in nature that is at least partly comprehensible to us. So science can proceed only if the scientist adopts an essentially theological worldview.[8]
So modern thought assumes these disembodied laws that are sort of the residue of God without the will or volition. Pierre-Simon Laplace reshaped science in the post Newtonian era, removing all the independent clock winding and repairing Newton had God doing in his system, and when Napoleon asked him why he left out talking about God in his science he supposedly answered “I have no need of that hypothesis.”[9] It was upon that basis that God was taken out of modern science and all the built in theological assumptions with it, based upon the explanatory power of cause and effect. From that point on there has been steady progression of putting aside thinking about ideas and final causes and assuming laws of physics just are. They are out there they make God unnecessary (supposedly) and though we don't know where they came from we don’t need to know.[10] As Alfred North Whitehead once observed: "We are content with superficial orderings form diverse arbitrary starting points. ... science which is employed in their development [modern thought] is based upon a philosophy which asserts that physical causation is supreme, and which disjoints the physical cause from the final end. It is not popular to dwell upon the absolute contradiction here involved..”[11]
The climate of opinion in modern physics, according to physicist Paul Davies, is still similar. Physicists assume the laws of physics “have some independent reality, prior to universe they describe,” not in terms of prescribing what nature has to do but in terms of beingbase of explanatory chain.”[12] Davies argues that fine tuning of the universal constants is an embarrassment to modern physicists. They are embarrassed because it appears that the universe has been “fixed” to produce life. In order to cover the embarrassment modern physicists reduce physical laws to something less binding. “The Cambridge cosmologist Martin Rees, president of The Royal Society, suggests the laws of physics aren't absolute and universal but more akin to local bylaws, varying from place to place on a mega-cosmic scale.”[13]  Davies goes on:


The root cause of all the difficulty can be traced to the fact that both religion and science appeal to some agency outside the universe to explain its law like order.....This shared failing is no surprise, because the very notion of physical law has its origins in theology. The idea of absolute, universal, perfect, immutable laws comes straight out of monotheism, which was the dominant influence in Europe at the time science as we know it was being formulated by Isaac Newton and his contemporaries. Just as classical Christianity presents God as upholding the natural order from beyond the universe, so physicists envisage their laws as inhabiting an abstract transcendent realm of perfect mathematical relationships. Furthermore, Christians believe the world depends utterly on God for its existence, while the converse is not the case. Correspondingly, physicists declare that the universe is governed by eternal laws, but the laws remain impervious to events in the universe.[14]
But the model has lost coherence since they can't move away from the word “law” and yet the laws are said to be mere “descriptions.” They seek to avoid a law giver. Then they vacillate between resorting to prescriptive or descriptive laws. This will be discussed in much detail in chapter 4. Modern scientific thought lacks the principle of grounding necessary to complete a correlate between our theoretical picture of the world an understanding what actually is because we have given up on the logos. We have a fragmented set of observations, laws and principles but no higher scheme uniting the fragments under single transcendental signifier:

And most cosmologists agree: we don't need a god-of-the-gaps to make the big bang go bang. It can happen as part of a natural process. A much tougher problem now looms, however. What is the source of those ingenious laws that enable a universe to pop into being from nothing? Traditionally, scientists have supposed that the laws of physics were simply imprinted on the universe at its birth, like a maker's mark. As to their origin, well, that was left unexplained.[15] 
They are still assuming a framework at the top without knowing what that framework is. For those who have given up on the project of truth it's even worse.




Notes


[1] John D. Caputo, The Prayers and Tears of Jacques Derrida, Bloomington, Indiana: University of aindiana Press, 1997 2. Difference is not God but it functioms as aTS
[2 ]Alexander Sissel Kohanski, The Greek Mode of Thought In Western Philosophy. Rutherford, Madison, Teaneck: Fairleigh, Dickinson University press, London, Toronto :Associated University Presses, 1984, 27.
]3] Cambridge Dkctiomary of Philosophy. London: Cambridge University Press, 2nd Edition, 1999, 45.,
[4]  William James,The Verities of Religious Experience, a Study In Human Nature: Being the Gifford Lectures on Natural Religion Delivered at Edinburgh in 1901-1902. London, New York, Bombay: Longmans, Green, and Co, 1905 56
[5] Ibid.
[6]  Ibid., 57.
[7]  Ibid.
[8]  Paul Davies, “Physics and The Mind of God: the Templeton Prize Address,” First Things, August 1995, on line version URL:https://www.firstthings.com/article/1995/08/003-physics-and-the-mind-of-god-the-templeton-prize-address-24 accessed Nov 25, 2016
[9[  Taner Edis, The Ghost in the Universe: God in Light of Modern Physics. Amherst, NY: Prometheus Books; 2nd Printing edition ,June 1, 2002, 107.
Edis is professor of physics at Truman State University.
[10]  Ibid.
 [11] Alfred North Whitehead, Science and The Modern World. New York: Free Press, 1925, (1953), 76.
[12] Paul Davies “When Time Began” New Scientist (oct 9 2004) 4.
[13]  __________, “Yes The Universe Looks like a fix, But ;that doesn't mean God fixed it,” The Guardian, Monday (25 June 2007) 19.07 ED on line copy, URL:
[14] Ibid.
[15 ] __________, “Stephan Hawking's Big Bang gaps,” The Guardian. (Saturday 4 September 2010) 03.30 EDT

28 comments:

im-skeptical said...

So science can proceed only if the scientist adopts an essentially theological worldview.
both religion and science appeal to some agency outside the universe to explain its law like order.
What is the source of those ingenious laws that enable a universe to pop into being from nothing?
- It is quite clear that you rely heavily on theistic scientists to support your own theistic arguments. Davies gives you exactly what you need. He is paid by the Templeton Foundation to produce this theistic blather. The mission of the Templeton Foundation is to inject religion into science. And Davies makes a very handsome living giving religious readers what they want to hear. Not one of the above statements is true. They express theistic belief, but are not based on any objective fact. In particular, his claim that the laws of physics must have come from some intelligent agency has no support whatsoever in scientific data, and most unbiased scientists recognize that reality. It is exactly the same argument that has used for so many centuries to support the notion of intelligent design of biological creatures, but which has been thoroughly debunked by modern science. This is nothing but religiously motivated drivel.

7th Stooge said...

I don't agree that the scientist has to adopt an essentially theological worldview. Why would they? They can bracket that kind of speculation, leaving it to the philosophers of science without it impeding their research at all. I don't see why practicing scientists have to speculate about the philosophical foundations of what they're doing in order to be able to do it. Same goes with a practitioner in any field.

But if the scientist does speculate about where the laws came from and so on, why can't they be some kind of quasi-Platonist without being a full-bore theist? Or just be content with bruteness for now until more is known or that it's beyond human cognitive limits?

Mike Gerow said...

Along the lines of what Jim said, it seems no accident that deism arises out of the early modern era along with the scientific method, postulating a more distant " clockmaker" God who just lays down the rules instead of a participating, intervening, theitistic one.

The deistic version of God also meets the criteria for a TS, no? Rather cleanly from an analytic pov, with far less fuss, mess, and intervening.... So it seems there's still a leap between a TS and (what Jim called) "full bore theism"?

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

I don't agree that the scientist has to adopt an essentially theological worldview. Why would they? They can bracket that kind of speculation, leaving it to the philosophers of science without it impeding their research at all. I don't see why practicing scientists have to speculate about the philosophical foundations of what they're doing in order to be able to do it. Same goes with a practitioner in any field.

Yes I agree, The idea that anything I said means scientists have to become theistic is stupid.The real point I was making is that scientists have their own idea of TS they use too.

But if the scientist does speculate about where the laws came from and so on, why can't they be some kind of quasi-Platonist without being a full-bore theist? Or just be content with bruteness for now until more is known or that it's beyond human cognitive limits?

exactly

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

The deistic version of God also meets the criteria for a TS, no? Rather cleanly from an analytic pov, with far less fuss, mess, and intervening.... So it seems there's still a leap between a TS and (what Jim called) "full bore theism"?

Good point, Not important to me.It does not impinge upon my argument

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

So science can proceed only if the scientist adopts an essentially theological worldview.
both religion and science appeal to some agency outside the universe to explain its law like order.
What is the source of those ingenious laws that enable a universe to pop into being from nothing?

where did you get that quote?



- It is quite clear that you rely heavily on theistic scientists to support your own theistic arguments. Davies gives you exactly what you need. He is paid by the Templeton Foundation to produce this theistic blather. The mission of the Templeton Foundation is to inject religion into science.


You think of him as a traitor because he doesn't support your science worship,yet he knows a lot more science than you, but he has the credentials,


And Davies makes a very handsome living giving religious readers what they want to hear. Not one of the above statements is true. They express theistic belief, but are not based on any objective fact.

Dawkins makes a handsome living telling little childish rebelling adolescents what they want to hear

conspiracy theories and ad hom arguments are not what we want here,You are not up to the level of discussion we want on this board,



In particular, his claim that the laws of physics must have come from some intelligent agency has no support whatsoever in scientific data, and most unbiased scientists recognize that reality.

doesn;t need scientific data,it's obvious based upon what laws are, you miss the whole popping of the thing, the point was all thing people have a TS including your science guys


It is exactly the same argument that has used for so many centuries to support the notion of intelligent design of biological creatures, but which has been thoroughly debunked by modern science. This is nothing but religiously motivated drivel.


that is not the argument genius, I have not even maned the argument yet

7th Stooge said...

I was responding to the quote that skep was citing. I couldn't find it in your essay. I wasn't assuming you said it.

7th Stooge said...

The deistic version of God also meets the criteria for a TS, no? Rather cleanly from an analytic pov, with far less fuss, mess, and intervening.... So it seems there's still a leap between a TS and (what Jim called) "full bore theism"?

Good to see you back on here, Mike :) Yeah, I would say a deistic God would meet the criteria of a TS. Other candidates for TS for science might be truth, instrumental success...Hmmm, can't think of any others right now.

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

yes the TS is general and broad based fits all kinds of things

im-skeptical said...

where did you get that quote?
- It's three different quotes, all from Davies in the articles you cited.

You think of him as a traitor because he doesn't support your science worship,yet he knows a lot more science than you, but he has the credentials
- I think of him as being very clearly biased (and therefore unreliable) due to his financial motivations, just like the "scientists" working for the energy industries who deny global warming.

Dawkins makes a handsome living telling little childish rebelling adolescents what they want to hear
- Then by all means, don't cite Dawkins as an authoritative source of scientific information.

conspiracy theories and ad hom arguments are not what we want here,You are not up to the level of discussion we want on this board
- Interesting. You say that "ad hom arguments are not what we want here", and you go on to make your own ad mom attack on me. Hypocrisy much?

doesn;t need scientific data,it's obvious based upon what laws are, you miss the whole popping of the thing, the point was all thing people have a TS including your science guys
- You are using Davies as a scientific authority, but his theistic conjectures about agency are NOT scientific. Nor are they obvious to anyone who isn't immersed in theistic belief. In short, he's telling you what you want to hear. But it has no scientific value at all.

that is not the argument genius, I have not even maned the argument yet
- Follow what I'm telling you, genius. Davies is making an argument about agency in the creation of the world, and it is exactly the same argument that theists have traditionally used with regard to the "design" of biological creatures. It is unscientific, and it has been thoroughly debunked.

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

where did you get that quote?
- It's three different quotes, all from Davies in the articles you cited.

still doesn't represent my view,It's not the quote I quoted

JLHYou think of him as a traitor because he doesn't support your science worship,yet he knows a lot more science than you, but he has the credentials



- I think of him as being very clearly biased (and therefore unreliable) due to his financial motivations, just like the "scientists" working for the energy industries who deny global warming.


and Dawkins? Davies was chosen to speak based upon views he expressed before he won Elton prize. He did not get paid to say stuff he won the proze they offer,you are extremely dishonest.

JLHDawkins makes living encouraging adolescent rebellion

- Then by all means, don't cite Dawkins as an authoritative source of scientific information.

you can;t impeach Davies because he won a prize that is stupid, very stupid,he is not campaigning for religious devotion he has a right to have ideas even if they disagree with your party line---your little Trump-like tactics


conspiracy theories and ad hom arguments are not what we want here,You are not up to the level of discussion we want on this board


- Interesting. You say that "ad hom arguments are not what we want here", and you go on to make your own ad hom attack on me. Hypocrisy much?




JLHdoesn;t need scientific data,it's obvious based upon what laws are, you miss the whole point of the thing, the point was all thing people have a TS including your science guys


- You are using Davies as a scientific authority, but his theistic conjectures about agency are NOT scientific.

yes they are. your little party line is not scientific, your love of science is not scientific,science doesn't love you.Science is not the only form of knowledge, God is a philosophical question.


Nor are they obvious to anyone who isn't immersed in theistic belief. In short, he's telling you what you want to hear. But it has no scientific value at all.

as opposed to hating God so he can tell you what you want to hear little. you can;t comprehend normal people who don;t hate God and just have idea about him

JLHthat is not the argument genius, I have not even made the argument yet



- Follow what I'm telling you, genius. Davies is making an argument about agency in the creation of the world, and it is exactly the same argument that theists have traditionally used with regard to the "design" of biological creatures.

so what? that busts your party line that his real sin,


It is unscientific,

violates the party line


and it has been thoroughly debunked.

you can;t make a single argument against it, you think its debunked if you evoke the party line




Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

saying Davies doesn;t love seine like you do is not an argument, you must show why he;s wrong about the things he says and how that reflects upon my argument, not enouh to just evoke the party line,

im-skeptical said...

still doesn't represent my view,It's not the quote I quoted
- You shouldn't cite sources if you don't know or don't understand what they say. This only shows the what you attempt tp pass off as "scholarship" is nothing more than cherry-picking.

and Dawkins? Davies was chosen to speak based upon views he expressed before he won Elton prize. He did not get paid to say stuff he won the proze they offer,you are extremely dishonest.
- Nobody is citing "The God Delusion" as an authoritative source of scientific information. But even if they did, It doesn't excuse you using Davies for that purpose. Davies, by the way has a strong association with Templeton. He publishes books in the Templeton Foundation Press.

you can;t impeach Davies because he won a prize that is stupid, very stupid,he is not campaigning for religious devotion he has a right to have ideas even if they disagree with your party line---your little Trump-like tactics
- I'm not impeaching him for anything. His won the Templeton Prize for Progress in Religion. His views on cosmology are fundamentally teleological and unscientific. He has been criticized by many actual scientists. I don't view him as an authority in cosmological science, and you shouldn't either.

yes they are. your little party line is not scientific, your love of science is not scientific,science doesn't love you.Science is not the only form of knowledge, God is a philosophical question.
- Teleology is NOT a valid scientific theory. Davies is just like the folks at Discovery Institute. Desperately trying to find God in science. And that goal leads then down the path of pseudo-science.

as opposed to hating God so he can tell you what you want to hear little. you can;t comprehend normal people who don;t hate God and just have idea about him
- I am interested (like most real scientists) in understanding natural reality, whatever that may be, on the basis of objective evidence.

so what? that busts your party line that his real sin
- I don't care what he does. It is of no value to me. The point is, if you cite him as an authoritative source of scientific information, that diminishes the value of your article, and I have every right to laugh in your face.

violates the party line
- far be it from you to step outside your walled-in fortress of theistic belief.

you can;t make a single argument against it, you think its debunked if you evoke the party line
- I'm waiting to hear your argument. You have already laid the foundations, and I'm not impressed.

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

JLHstill doesn't represent my view,It's not the quote I quoted


- You shouldn't cite sources if you don't know or don't understand what they say. This only shows the what you attempt tp pass off as "scholarship" is nothing more than cherry-picking.

that is bull shit, you do not know the first thing about argument, you could not pull a single round at he lowest regional college debate tournament. Use sources to document points not as authority fugues,


JLHand Dawkins? Davies was chosen to speak based upon views he expressed before he won Elton prize. He did not get paid to say stuff he won the proze they offer,you are extremely dishonest.


- Nobody is citing "The God Delusion" as an authoritative source of scientific information. But even if they did, It doesn't excuse you using Davies for that purpose. Davies, by the way has a strong association with Templeton. He publishes books in the Templeton Foundation Press.


Of course they do all the time and I;m sure you do as well.

JLHyou can;t impeach Davies because he won a prize that is stupid, very stupid,he is not campaigning for religious devotion he has a right to have ideas even if they disagree with your party line---your little Trump-like tactics


- I'm not impeaching him for anything. His won the Templeton Prize for Progress in Religion. His views on cosmology are fundamentally teleological and unscientific. He has been criticized by many actual scientists. I don't view him as an authority in cosmological science, and you shouldn't either.

I think it;s quite foolish to tell a major physicist he;s unscientific, you do not know shit about science compared to him. but the fact is you are not dealing with the issue for which I quoted him,he is quite qualified to document the points for which I cited his knowledge,


JLHyes they are. your little party line is not scientific, your love of science is not scientific,science doesn't love you.Science is not the only form of knowledge, God is a philosophical question.


- Teleology is NOT a valid scientific theory. Davies is just like the folks at Discovery Institute. Desperately trying to find God in science. And that goal leads then down the path of pseudo-science.

I'm not doming science,I'm making a philosophical argument,Listen Marconi being "unscientific" does not hold any terror for me as it does for you. All it means coming from you is you don;t like it, it means "boo that"


JLHas opposed to hating God so he can tell you what you want to hear little. you can;t comprehend normal people who don;t hate God and just have idea about him


- I am interested (like most real scientists) in understanding natural reality, whatever that may be, on the basis of objective evidence.

JLHso what? that busts your party line that his real sin


- I don't care what he does. It is of no value to me. The point is, if you cite him as an authoritative source of scientific information, that diminishes the value of your article, and I have every right to laugh in your face.

JLHviolates the party line


- far be it from you to step outside your walled-in fortress of theistic belief.

sure, well fortified means well defend logically and maybe empirically too

JLHyou can;t make a single argument against it, you think its debunked if you evoke the party line


- I'm waiting to hear your argument. You have already laid the foundations, and I'm not impressed.

tune in on Modnday

im-skeptical said...

that is bull shit, you do not know the first thing about argument, you could not pull a single round at he lowest regional college debate tournament. Use sources to document points not as authority fugues
- I know the difference between argument and rhetoric. A valid argument contains logical conclusions that follow from the premises. A successful argument is not only logically valid, but it also provides adequate support to justify its premises and assumptions. Your so-called "arguments" are neither logically nor do they contain sufficient support for their premises to convince any skeptic. They are merely sweet nothings that you whisper into the ears of your fellow religionists.

Of course they do [cite "The God Delusion" as a source of scientific information] all the time and I;m sure you do as well.
- Show me. I have never seen it. And I have never done that myself.

I think it;s quite foolish to tell a major physicist he;s unscientific, you do not know shit about science compared to him. but the fact is you are not dealing with the issue for which I quoted him,he is quite qualified to document the points for which I cited his knowledge
- All that matters to you is that a guy with a PhD is spouting something that agrees with your religious beliefs. Teleology is NOT a scientific theory, and I'm not even sure that Davies would claim that it is. But by espousing this, he gives you a reason to say "there's a PhD physicist who agrees with me." Most physicists don't.

I'm not doming science,I'm making a philosophical argument,Listen Marconi being "unscientific" does not hold any terror for me as it does for you. All it means coming from you is you don;t like it, it means "boo that"
- You definitely are nor doing science. But then you should understand that using Davies as a scientific authority is disingenuous. And the simple claim of making a "philosophical argument" does not render your claims to be valid. There is no consensus in philosophical concepts - especially theistic ones.

sure, well fortified means well defend logically and maybe empirically too
- Are you telling me that that's what you mean by your so-called atheist "fortress of facts"? I don't think so.

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

that is bull shit, you do not know the first thing about argument, you could not pull a single round at he lowest regional college debate tournament. Use sources to document points not as authority fugues


- I know the difference between argument and rhetoric.

no you don;t argument uses rhetoric, rhetoric is not bull shit, communication was one of my majors,

A valid argument contains logical conclusions that follow from the premises. A successful argument is not only logically valid, but it also provides adequate support to justify its premises and assumptions. Your so-called "arguments" are neither logically nor do they contain sufficient support for their premises to convince any skeptic. They are merely sweet nothings that you whisper into the ears of your fellow religionists.

you are full of shit, I haven't made the argument, so of course I have yet to present preemies. one need not mark premises with road signs to have them.

Of course they do [cite "The God Delusion" as a source of scientific information] all the time and I;m sure you do as well.


- Show me. I have never seen it. And I have never done that myself.

with you you never document any of your little options

JLHI think it;s quite foolish to tell a major physicist he;s unscientific, you do not know shit about science compared to him. but the fact is you are not dealing with the issue for which I quoted him,he is quite qualified to document the points for which I cited his knowledge


- All that matters to you is that a guy with a PhD is spouting something that agrees with your religious beliefs.

i know you are incapable of following what documentation is used for, you can't note points made and understand which are the premises and see when they are defended,that was way too much to expect of a guy who is still high school in terms of understanding argument,


-Teleology is NOT a scientific theory, and I'm not even sure that Davies would claim that it is. But by espousing this, he gives you a reason to say "there's a PhD physicist who agrees with me." Most physicists don't.

I guess to you that means teleology is not a real subject and can't be discussed, To me it means almost nothing, it doesn't have to be science to be valid,


JLHI'm not doming science,I'm making a philosophical argument,Listen Marconi being "unscientific" does not hold any terror for me as it does for you. All it means coming from you is you don;t like it, it means "boo that"



- You definitely are nor doing science. But then you should understand that using Davies as a scientific authority is disingenuous.


that's really stupid even for you, the guy is a major physicist, upi do not understand the first thing about documentation. , Davies is perfectly qualified to appeal to as proof of the points for which i use him. Uopur feelig that he;s a traitor to science is unimportant,that does not take away his credentials, he has the crednentiaks you don;t,

-And the simple claim of making a "philosophical argument" does not render your claims to be valid. There is no consensus in philosophical concepts - especially theistic ones.

My claims are valid for their content they are not invalid for not being science not for being philosophical, your criticism so far are emotional and ideological, you have nothing, you don't even understand what I;ve said so far,


JLHsure, well fortified means well defend logically and maybe empirically too



- Are you telling me that that's what you mean by your so-called atheist "fortress of facts"? I don't think so.

atheist fortress of facts is my name for the atheist tendency to think that a pile of facts beats an idea.

im-skeptical said...

no you don;t argument uses rhetoric, rhetoric is not bull shit, communication was one of my majors
- I'm talking about logical argument. Rhetoric is not bound by the rules of logical argumentation.

you are full of shit, I haven't made the argument, so of course I have yet to present preemies. one need not mark premises with road signs to have them.
- You have made plenty of arguments in the past. In general, they are not logically valid. Take your "Argument From God Corrolate [sic]", for example. I showed you exactly why it is not valid (many times), and I have never heard you rely to that. You just keep spouting it.

with you you never document any of your little options
- I understand when documentation is called for, and I provide it when appropriate. If I say something that is widely known, that doesn't call for documentation. I don't have to document a claim that inflation theory is the most widely held cosmological among physicists today, because everybody (except you) knows that, and it is a simple matter to look it up for yourself. On the other hand, if you make a claim that is both controversial and highly doubtful, you need to document it. Nobody (including me) cites "The God Delusion" as a source of authoritative scientific information. But if you think they do, than show me. At least show me one place where I have done that, since that is the claim you made. The fact is that you are a liar.

I guess to you that means teleology is not a real subject and can't be discussed, To me it means almost nothing, it doesn't have to be science to be valid
- Of course it's a real subject. It's just not a scientific subject. A PhD in science gives Davies no academic basis to discuss matters of theology.

My claims are valid for their content they are not invalid for not being science not for being philosophical, your criticism so far are emotional and ideological, you have nothing, you don't even understand what I;ve said so far
- Your "Argument From God Corrolate [sic]" is not logically valid. It remains to be seen whether the one you are about to present is just as flawed as that.

atheist fortress of facts is my name for the atheist tendency to think that a pile of facts beats an idea.
- And the theistic "fortress of belief" is the tendency of theists to think that their pile of religious beliefs beats objective facts.

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

no you don;t argument uses rhetoric, rhetoric is not bull shit, communication was one of my majors
- I'm talking about logical argument. Rhetoric is not bound by the rules of logical argumentation.

wrong, all communication majors know better, your just spouting a popular misconception. that's all your views on God and religion are

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

JLHyou are full of shit, I haven't made the argument, so of course I have yet to present preemies. one need not mark premises with road signs to have them.


- You have made plenty of arguments in the past. In general, they are not logically valid.

you don't know what makes an argument valid, you can;t give me an example I bet you a million bucks your idea of that sentence is "you said stuff that's not science worthy" so therefore it's not valid, you have no idea what logic is.



Take your "Argument From God Corrolate [sic]", for example. I showed you exactly why it is not valid (many times), and I have never heard you rely to that. You just keep spouting it.


you don't even understand what the argument says, you just spouted a lot of hot air about studies you never read, you asserted what the research said even though you never read their work, that just proves you don't know logic. Because a valid argumemt is not the empirical means that backs it up.I have beaten assigning assumption you made about studies and that is all you have stupid assertions based upon bigotry,

JLH with you you never document any of your little opinions



- I understand when documentation is called for, and I provide it when appropriate.


no you don;t you rarely do. most of the time you expect your baseless opinion to be excepted as fact.


Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

I understand when documentation is called for, and I provide it when appropriate.

no you don't, your sense of argument is horrible, this is just a means of worming out of having to do the work of proving your point.


If I say something that is widely known, that doesn't call for documentation. I don't have to document a claim that inflation theory is the most widely held cosmological among physicists today, because everybody (except you) knows that,


you sure as hell do have to prove that, I doubt that you even know what;s accepted and what;s not, you only know atheist party line,that is what you will claim as accepted,


and it is a simple matter to look it up for yourself. On the other hand, if you make a claim that is both controversial and highly doubtful,

typical lazy non thinker if i let you get away with that you will be pushing your party line as gospel fact,

you need to document it. Nobody (including me) cites "The God Delusion" as a source of authoritative scientific information. But if you think they do, than show me. At least show me one place where I have done that, since that is the claim you made. The fact is that you are a liar.

stop trying to divert the real by interjecting your little party BSl. once again what i wrote is totally ignored so we hear you whine about your little opinion which are uninformed and read and stupid,

JLHI guess to you that means teleology is not a real subject and can't be discussed, To me it means almost nothing, it doesn't have to be science to be valid



- Of course it's a real subject. It's just not a scientific subject. A PhD in science gives Davies no academic basis to discuss matters of theology.


I didn't quote hi om theology

JLHMy claims are valid for their content they are not invalid for not being science not for being philosophical, your criticism so far are emotional and ideological, you have nothing, you don't even understand what I;ve said so far


- Your "Argument From God Corrolate [sic]" is not logically valid. It remains to be seen whether the one you are about to present is just as flawed as that.

you do not know anything about it, but we are not discussing that now you are trying to divert attention from the issues becauase they are way out of your league,

im-skeptical said...

wrong, all communication majors know better, your just spouting a popular misconception. that's all your views on God and religion are.
- Rhetoric is the art of persuasion. Of course, it can be based on logic, but there is plenty of rhetoric that does not depend on logic. Some of the best examples are in politics - making use of devices such as emotional appeal.

you don't know what makes an argument valid, you can;t give me an example I bet you a million bucks your idea of that sentence is "you said stuff that's not science worthy" so therefore it's not valid, you have no idea what logic is.
- Properly following the rules of logic, from premises to conclusion, is what makes an argument valid. Your "Argument From God Corrolate [sic]" is an example of an invalid argument, and I have pointed this out to you again and again. Read what I say about, instead of just speculating about what an idiot might say.

you don't even understand what the argument says, you just spouted a lot of hot air about studies you never read, you asserted what the research said even though you never read their work, that just proves you don't know logic. Because a valid argumemt is not the empirical means that backs it up.I have beaten assigning assumption you made about studies and that is all you have stupid assertions based upon bigotry
- The validity of your argument has nothing to do with those studies. It has everything to do with your improper application of logic.

no you don;t you rarely do. most of the time you expect your baseless opinion to be excepted as fact.
- I did point out the Wikipedia articleM that says it is widely accepted. Of course you didn't read it. You just keep stupidly arguing against every single thing I say.

typical lazy non thinker if i let you get away with that you will be pushing your party line as gospel fact
- There is no need to document what virtually the whole world knows already. The fact that YOU don't know it only shows how ignorant you are.

stop trying to divert the real by interjecting your little party BSl. once again what i wrote is totally ignored so we hear you whine about your little opinion which are uninformed and read and stupid
- Nice try. Bringing Dawkins into the discussion was YOUR diversionary tactic, not mine.

I didn't quote hi om theology
- You cited articles by Davies, in support of your own article, that contain theological claims. Go back to my first comment. I quoted three of them.

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...


https://undpress.nd.edu/9780268004460/new-rhetoric-the/

Description
The New Rhetoric is founded on the idea that since “argumentation aims at securing the adherence of those to whom it is addressed, it is, in its entirety, relative to the audience to be influenced,” says Chaïm Perelman and L. Olbrechts-Tyteca, and they rely, in particular, for their theory of argumentation on the twin concepts of universal and particular audiences: while every argument is directed to a specific individual or group, the orator decides what information and what approaches will achieve the greatest adherence according to an ideal audience. This ideal, Perelman explains, can be embodied, for example, "in God, in all reasonable and competent men, in the man deliberating or in an elite.” Like particular audiences, then, the universal audience is never fixed or absolute but depends on the orator, the content and goals of the argument, and the particular audience to whom the argument is addressed. These considerations determine what information constitutes "facts" and "reasonableness" and thus help to determine the universal audience that, in turn, shapes the orator's approach. The adherence of an audience is also determined by the orator's use of values, a further key concept of the New Rhetoric. Perelman's treatment of value and his view of epideictic rhetoric sets his approach apart from that of the ancients and of Aristotle in particular. Aristotle's division of rhetoric into three genres–forensic, deliberative, and epideictic–is largely motivated by the judgments required for each: forensic or legal arguments require verdicts on past action, deliberative or political rhetoric seeks judgment on future action, and epideictic or ceremonial rhetoric concerns values associated with praise or blame and seeks no specific decisions. For Aristotle, the epideictic genre was of limited importance in the civic realm since it did not concern facts or policies. Perelman, in contrast, believes not only that epideictic rhetoric warrants more attention, but that the values normally limited to that genre are in fact central to all argumentation. "Epideictic oratory," Perelman argues, "has significant and important argumentation for strengthening the disposition toward action by increasing adherence to the values it lauds.” These values are central to the persuasiveness of arguments in all rhetorical genres since the orator always attempts to "establish a sense of communion centered around particular values recognized by the audience.”



this is the kind of thing you study as a communication major. a lot more to it than just saying rhetoric is persuasion

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

Your "Argument From God Corrolate [sic]" is not logically valid. It remains to be seen whether the one you are about to present is just as flawed as that.

you know nothing about logic or what makes an argent valid, you have not made an argument here.

since I have not yet made the argument you have now proven that you are are an idiot who can;t keep his mouth shut

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

I think I zapped your post Skep,I did;t mean to there spamers

im-skeptical said...

Still in the copy buffer. ...

this is the kind of thing you study as a communication major. a lot more to it than just saying rhetoric is persuasion
- So what's your point? This article doesn't say a single word about the use of logic in rhetoric. In common modern-day usage, it's about persuasion, which may include logical argumentation, but we all know that people are seldom persuaded by logic. Instead, they are much more likely to be persuaded by other rhetorical devices, such as emotional appeal. Logical argumentation in philosophy, on the other hand, specifically follows the rules of logic. Of course, if you were a communications major, you should be well aware of all this. It's not rocket science.


you know nothing about logic or what makes an argent valid, you have not made an argument here. since I have not yet made the argument you have now proven that you are are an idiot who can;t keep his mouth shut
- I was referring to your past use of logical argumentation. In my commentary, I specifically pointed out the logical flaws in your soliloquy. And you still haven't addressed those issues. I don't think you ever will. I have acknowledged that you have yet to make your argument for the current topic. We all await with bated breath.

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

this is the kind of thing you study as a communication major. a lot more to it than just saying rhetoric is persuasion

- So what's your point? This article doesn't say a single word about the use of logic in rhetoric.

the whole thing rambles on for a page long paragraph about argumentation. Rhetoric is about the use of argumentation that means logic not emotions. Argument employs logic, Logic can be used to persuade but not used emotionally or unfairly. so your original assertion is not totally wrong but it;s not accurate.


In common modern-day usage, it's about persuasion,


No that;s ignorant usage, people who don't study rhetoric say that,


which may include logical argumentation, but we all know that people are seldom persuaded by logic.

that's doesn't mean roisterer oms understudy logic.you areogorant istiudied rheteoricfoalliypaqrtofmy ajor youi didnoit, dub ass.

Instead, they are much more likely to be persuaded by other rhetorical devices, such as emotional appeal.

that does not determine the nature of rhetoric a a discipline, cretin,


Logical argumentation in philosophy, on the other hand, specifically follows the rules of logic. Of course, if you were a communications major, you should be well aware of all this. It's not rocket science.

you just proved to me you know nothing


you know nothing about logic or what makes an argent valid, you have not made an argument here. since I have not yet made the argument you have now proven that you are are an idiot who can;t keep his mouth shut


- I was referring to your past use of logical argumentation. In my commentary, I specifically pointed out the logical flaws in your soliloquy.

ahahahahahahhaahahahahahahahahahaahahzhhahaahaahazhazhazhazhazahzhzhzazhzhzhhajajaahhahahahaahahahaahahahah


And you still haven't addressed those issues. I don't think you ever will. I have acknowledged that you have yet to make your argument for the current topic. We all await with bated breath.

you are carefully avoided every major point made in my discourse, the whole point of the essay is that all major systems of thinning have always evoked a TS in the assumption of a grand first principle, you have carefully avoided discussion of that idea to work fervor about marginal issue to draw attention from the major issues,


im-skeptical said...

It doesn't matter what your argument is if your logic is invalid. You have carefully avoided answering the issue of your invalid argument.

Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...

It doesn't matter what your argument is if your logic is invalid. You have carefully avoided answering the issue of your invalid argument.

since I haven;t made the argument yet there is no possibility of invalid logic, you have never made a valid Argentine in your life.

this just shows shows deeply stupid you are,