paryer part 2

The Board is CARM the Poster is Paradoxical. I see a thread that says "of course prayer doesn't work." That doesn't sit well with me so I look. Paradoxical and "Big thinker" (very ironic name) say post after post after post "why would Christians think prayer works, when it's so obvious it doesn't?" Christians will come on and tell them "prayer works because the bible says blah blah" and they keep going "why would they think that?" They also unveiled theory after theory all which involved the thesis that Christians are stupid and believe in prayer because they can't face life, ect ect. So I went in. I said hey you know I believe in prayer because I've seen it work. I told them about my father. Christmas eve he had a major heart attack. He's in the ICU.He had already a couple of big heart attacks the day before, but this one was massive. I had been at the hospital all night the first night then all day the next day up to midnight so we went home to get some sleep. We went home thinking this is the end of his life. The Doctor had already asked for the next of kin, asked if we wanted heroic measures to keep him alive. My twin brother had the presence of mind to say "Of cousre!" Thank God he did.

We are watching the Pope's midnight Mass. I didn't tell Paradoxical this at first until much latter in the three but I prayed when the Pope called for prayer for the sick. I prayed for my father then drifted off to sleep. During the night I dreamed the Pope came to me with my father who looked great and was wearing a new suit, the Pope said, "he will be remain with you." My Dad said "I'm going to be alright." In spite of this happy dream I woke up thinking "I wish that could be true but I bet he died last night." I was feeling very mournful and thinking about the world without Dad when I think my mother called and said "he made it thorugh the night and he's better." My brother and I went up there immediately and as soon as I walked into the ICU nurses came up to me saying "have you heard about the miracle?" Everyone was real excited. One nurse said "this is all we talk about this morning a real Christmas miracle." His heart was fine. He was not conscoius but he was breathing well and his heart was rhythmical and strong. The Doctor came in and I said "I've word 'miracle' banded about." He said "I have never used the word miracle in my practice but this has to be a miracle." It seems he was dead for 11 minutes. He had very aruthmical heart beat before he flat lined. They would have given up but one guy said "it's Christmas let's give it one more try." The neat part is I talked to the doctor about when that was and I can time it by the show I was watch that was just right after I prayed. The doctor said the real mriacle is not so much coming back from flat line, that happens. Believe it or not that's not that amazing although eleven minutes a long time for it. The really amazing part is that he's 89, heart beat was so weak and arrhythmical and came back so strong. The doctor said "this just does not happen."

I told the atheists that part of course they just went into a frenzy. They are so conditioned and so brain washed into thinking nothing can ever depart from their slave thinking about how thing must work, they could not consider for a moment that something different could happen.


Paradoxical:

Meta, you're telling me God chose to save a 89 year old because you prayed? And you believe that sort of thing? While thousands die that are prayed for that are much younger? God picks your dad? For what? To add a few months to hios life because you played a Groucho Marx and said the magic words? If your dad was "dead", where is the death certificate? You and the doctors just thought he was. To think god would save an 89 year old when that's well beying life expectancy is not healthy Meta. It supposes God favors people because of words. it's beyond ridiculous. It's being out of touch with the real world and not using common sense.

They alleged that "Christians always twist evidence and stretch things." Of course that's just circular reasoning becasue they assume from the outset there can't be evidence for what they think is supernatural so when such evidence is presented it must always be discounted and disbelieved at all costs. So nothing could ever count as evidence for it because it disproves their ideology, and they are ideologues so they can't have that. Notice what he's saying about his age, God wouldn't help him, it's utilitarianism. God has to be ruthlessly efficient and disregard emotions and love. He has to sweep aside the elderly (that's just on a par with racism, ageism is less reactionary and bigoted than sexism or racism). Not all atheists are such bigots. But that is really spoken like someone with low self esteem "who are you to think God would help you?" Studies have shown that this is a factor in atheism.

Also notice that in charging that God wouldn't heal an old man thier claim not only belies the atheist amoral ant-life philosophy but also demonstrates the shallow selfishness of atheists. All he can think of is the point of one guy's life. He doesn't even stop to consider the effect upon other people of that one guy being alive. He doesn't consider the quality of the three years he livened beyond that point. He has no concept of what my father's living did for other members of the family. I am not shocked that atheist has no concept of compassion or love, but I am amazing people can't see that. It's really hard for me to accept that good people are willing to identify themselves with a movement that is obviously a totally disaster morally and intellectually.

Originally Posted by Metacrock

hey look, this is not twisting things. My father was dead. The heart surgeon said he waws. His own doctor said he was. the guy that used paddles and said "clear!" he told me. they all thold me he was dead, 11 minutes. then came back and his heart was much stronger than 89 year old man with arrhythmia ever is. His doctor said "this is a miracle." the doctor was not a believer. He was freaked out.

I am not making it up, I'm not stretching the language that's exactly true literally.

another time the ER guys were in our living room all the stuff hooked up to him and they literally freaking out as watched his vitals change form heart attack to nomral. one of them was screaming 'this can't happen!"

I am not twisting it. that's exactly what they said. you can't get clearer than they were.

why it is so hard for you to stretch your little mind and get in your head that you don't know everything? HU? why is it so hard for you to accept that you are wrong?

why do you keep flapping your gums when YOU WEREN'T" THERE!???

I went on confronting them this way for most of the thread and they become more and more angry about it. They never really argued rationally but kept insisting I had to be wrong, my interpretation of events had to be at odds with the facts, they kept trying to use shame and ridicule to force me to admit it didn't happen. The peoplel who weren't there and didn't talk to the doctor and don't know are so cock sure they can't be wrong. Paradoxical kept insisting that the doctors were wrong he could not have been dead. I think that's pathetic. Talking clutching at straws!

Originally Posted by Paradoxical View Post

Meta, all you've told us is that some doctors THOUGHT your dad was dead.

Meta:

That's so stupidly silly! ahaahahahahahah some doctors thought he was dead! He was only in intensive care and hooked up to the machines with the major heart Surgeon in Texas around. why would anyone think those doctors would know anything? Science is only worth something when it backs atheism I know that. When scinece contradicts your precious God hating world-view then science is crap!

he had the state of the art! state of art care. do you understand what I'm saying?

That's low man, that's so low. Try to deny that the state of art in medicine could tell if he was talk bout clutching at straws. If you are willing to say that where wont you try to deny the facts when they are given? what good does it do to discuss anything with you if you can't accept the facts when they are obvious? you will just saying to deny the truth then pronouncements about prayer mean nothing. Nothing could ever count to prove it works, any evidence you see you will automatically resist.

Paradoxical

Did they monitor his brain activity?

Meta:

what do you think they do in intensive care, duh? ever been to a hospital?

Paradoxical:

Did they monitor his heart to see that it stopped beating for the entire 11 minutes?

Meta:

Naw they read comics and played tick tac toe and they decided to lie about it latter to help me believe in God. That's what doctors do in hospitals isn't it?

what if I asked these kind of stupid questions about your little supposed anti-prayer study? did they remember to check and see who prayed? Did they make sure the people were really sick? they have actual medical stuff around them? did they actually remember to have a double blind?

Paradoxical:

Was he declared dead?

Meta:

why would they be puttying paddles on his chest and shocking him if they thought e was fine? Yes, they ready to declair him dead. The said "let's give it one more try, it's Christmas, we have to say we really gave it our best shot."

Paradoxical:

Was he written up in medical journals?

that is such a stupid argument. These guys have such a cartoon understanding of how science works.

Meta:

do you have any kind of understanding of anything? why would you think medical journals are sitting around waiting for reports of miracles? I was part of the academic publishing world. I know how academic publishers do. I was one. I know that they are not string around wait to confirmation that destroys their world. If you sent them a report "man comes back to life" they would say "we cant' publish this, it will bother our atheist readers. this is an academic publication not a religious pamphlet."

forget the crap about "truth." academic publishing is not about "truth" it's about getting the article you need that your readership wants to pay money for.

It is far from unknown in medicine for people who have been dead for several minutes to start living again. The really amazing stuff I haven't told you yet. But that's beside the point. The point is there is a case that contradicts your view and you so desperate to dismiss it that you resort to childish stuff "how do you know the doctors know what they are doing?"

Paradoxical:

If not, why not? This certainly would be one for the Christian books. Meta, let me know where I might find the written reports on this miracle.

Shocking ignorance.

Meta:

Exactly, you just answered your own question. One for the CHRISTIAN books. But most academic journals an medical journals are not Christina books. so they are not going to publish it because they don't want to turn off their readers. Their readers are materialistic and if they see a report of a miracle they will be like you and want to make it go away. No one is going to say "O this is proof at last I found God." that's rare. extremely rare.

Another ridiculous aspect of that is this is far from the only claim of resurrection I've seen. I myself met four people who claim to have been raised from the dead, counting my Dad. BTW he never could say if he remembered anything of being dead. He tired to tell me once but it was incoehernet. He said some incoherent stuff about angels. Other times he said he had no memories. I was at Chruch of the Resurrection (Episcapol Chruch that used to have inter-deonom friday night services that were quite an occasion among Dallas Charismatics). A woman claimed that on a trip to Mexico that summer she met someone who had been raised form the dead and the whole village acknowledged it. I met Doctor Richard Ebby. I met a man named "George" who I have seen discussed on NDE websites, claimed to have been shot by KGB and dead in morgue for three days. I also met a woman who claimed to have been dead and brought back and who spoke being at the throne of God.

Paradoxical

Meta, people pray millions upon milions of times in a day.

so?

Meta:

they get answers every day too. they feel God's presence every day too. that's more important than getting stuff. that's the real point of prayer. prayer is about knowing god not getting stuff. If you are blessed enough to be in the zone and get a miracle its' extremely rare but it's really super cool and important and it does happen.

Paradoxical

It's like playing the lottery.

Meta:

no it's not, not to any degree. Because a Lottery doesn't have a fix in where a will can grant the giving of the favor.

this is all a bunch of palaver. the point is you are desperate to deny the truth. I know it's true, I know prayer works. I've seen it I was there.

I wonder why they like to compare it to the lottery? Is it to make it seem foolish? If it's the rarity of "wining" what does that have to do with weather or not the answers that are claimed actuality did happen? The Lottery is blind chance, prayer depends upon a will on the other end. It's not dumb luck it's weather or not the answer fits the design and plan of the will that is in charge of granting the prayer. Another major difference is that prayer is important for it's own sake. Prayer is not about getting things it's about contact with God. If one is not granted the objec to petition one still cannot say the prayer was useless anymore than one can say spending time with one's father was useless.

These guys are clearly alarmed that something happened and they are confronted directly with someone who saw it, something that contradicts their ideology. They are vested in their ideology they can't handle it. So they have keep denying that there is any reason to believe. No matter how incredulous one might be, no matter how entrenched in doubt and unreasoning denial it should be obvious that clutching like denying the ICU would know if he was dead, merely refusing to believe it happened no matter what, trying to find silly technicalities like the death certificate had not been filled out so he could not be dead, all indicates minds being blown and vested interests being smashed..About the death certificate argument, I had no idea if was filled out or not. It's pretty reasonable to think that if he was still on the table and they were still in a position to shock him one more time that would expalin why if in fact they had not. Maybe they did and then tore it up? It's totally stupid to claim that until the certificate is filled out he can't be dead. Then all I have to do is get my relatives not fill out the death certificate and I'll live forever. The funny thing is having no idea weather it was or not Paradoxical first just assumes it wasn't then tries to use that as some last minute pathetic argument.

I left that thread with him screaming and ranting and going on about how stupid I am to believe that. It could not have happened I'm so dumb. Using ridicule and shame to try and brow beat the opponent into submission.These are not the ear marks of intellectual thought. It's amazing to me that intelligent people will throw in their lots with these fools. Why can't just admit that people can have reasons to believe things they don't agree with? They vested in their little ideology they can't accept anything that counts against it. That means there's no way any sort of logic or evidence will make any difference to them.