Atheists have another favorite tactic and that is to argue that Occam's razor rules out God because God is not the simpler idea. There they are confusing it with Parsimony. Occam was priest and he believed in God he didn't think the razor got rid of God. For that reason I've always been somewhat peeved by their use of this argument. Moreover, what the razor really says is no not multiply entities beyond necessity.[1] The thing is you see, atheists assume that since they don't believe in God then is not necessary so God is multiply beyond necessity. That's the argument made by those who at least know the real version of the argument but they don't know what it means. Let's try to understand it first by understanding Occam's nominalism. four senses of nominalism:
(1) Denial of metaphsyical universals: applies to Occam.
(2) reduce one's ontology to bare minimum, streamline categories: applies to Occam.
(3) Nix abstract entities, depending upon what one means here Occam may or may not have been a nominalist in this sense. he did not believe in mathematical entities but he did believe in abstraction such as whiteness, or humanity.
Ockham removes all need for entities in seven of the traditional Aristotelian ten categories; all that remain are entities in the categories of substance and quality, and a few entities in the category of relation, which Ockham thinks are required for theological reasons pertaining to the Trinity, the Incarnation and the Eucharist, even though our natural cognitive powers would see no reason for them at all. As is to be expected, the ultimate success of Ockham's program is a matter of considerable dispute.[2]
He was not getting rid of God. Occam's razor never allows us to deny what spade calls "putative entities" which would definitely include God. It merely bids us referain from positing them without good reason. Of course the many choruses of atheist propagadna slgoanizing would have it that this does include God,[3] but with my 52 arguments we know better, don't we?[4]In fact for Occam humans can't really know what is necessary, "For Ockham, the only truly necessary entity is God; everything else, the whole of creation, is radically contingent through and through. In short, Ockham does not accept the Principle of Sufficient Reason.."[5] Wait a minute, not a contradiction because all the reasor says is refrain form multiplying entities without good reason, not rub them out of existence. Note that he includes God as the only truly necesasry entity. Thus atheist are violating Occam's razor in trying to use it on God.
Occam did not have a razor:
"The concept of Occam’s razor is credited to William of Ockham, a 13-14th-century friar, philosopher, and theologian. While he did not coin the term, his characteristic way of making deductions inspired other writers to develop the heuristic. Indeed, the concept of Occam’s razor is an ancient one which was first stated by Aristotle who wrote “we may assume the superiority, other things being equal, of the demonstration which derives from fewer postulates or hypotheses.”[6]
Yet this raises the question of the Multiverse. Is the multiverse necessary? It's a matter of empirical question and there is empirical evidence to support it. Claims have been made of hard data proving Multivese, but when investigated they evaporate. Here's a physicist who opposed string theory and multiverse he argues that his evaluation of the papers finds irresolvable problems.
In recent years there have been many claims made for “evidence” of a multiverse, supposedly found in the CMB data (see for example here). Such claims often came with the remark that the Planck CMB data would convincingly decide the matter. When the Planck data was released two months ago, I looked through the press coverage and through the Planck papers for any sign of news about what the new data said about these multiverse evidence claims. There was very little there; possibly the Planck scientists found these claims to be so outlandish that it wasn’t worth the time to look into what the new data had to say about them. One exception was this paper, where Planck looked for evidence of “dark flow”.[7]
If hard evidence turns up for it then we have to deal with that on it's own terms. Until that time Multiverse should be shaved with Occam's razor. We don't need it to explain reality, it's only advanced to keep from having to turn to God. It's naturalistic so it's an arbitrary necessity at best. Arbitrary necessitates are logical impossibilities, contingent things jumped up to the level of necessity to answer a God argument. It's not we are going to disprove the unnecessary entity but we are going refrain from advancing it's existence as an assumption until such a time that real empirical evidence makes it necessary. Therefore, Multiverse should be taken out of the issues of God arguments.
sources
[1]C.K. Brampton, "Nominalism and the Law of Parsimony." The Modern School Men, Volume 41, Issue 3, (March 1964), 273-281. the sentiment of that slogan "don't multiply entities beyond necessity" is in line with Occam's thinking although he didn't actually say that.
[2]Spade, Paul Vincent and Panaccio, Claude, "William of Ockham", The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (Fall 2011 Edition), Edward N. Zalta (ed.), URL = . Fall 2011 (substantive content change) [new author(s): Spade, Paul Vincent; Panaccio, Claude]
[3] Spade, et al, Ibid.
[4] 42 God arguments on Doxa, and 10 more on Religious A prori.
[5]Spade, Ibid.
[6] FS Farnam Street The Danger of Over Simplification: how to use Occam;s Rzzor without getting cut"
https://fs.blog/2017/05/mental-model-occams-razor/
[7]Peter Woit, Not Even Wrong,May 22, 2013 blog: http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/ Woit, Ph.D. particle theory form Princeton, Post doctorte in phsyics and math from Berkeley, tught at Columbia since 1989.
Joseph Hinman, "Occam's Razor Shaves the Multiverse," Metacorck's Blog. (June 12, 2013) http://metacrock.blogspot.com/2013/06/occams-razor-shaves-multiverse.html (accessed June 8.2019)
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God,Science, and ideology,a book by Joseph Hinmman
God.Science, and ideology, by Joseph Hinman, is a great book. Ot argues that positions which teach the superiority of science over religion in such a way as to negate the truth content of the religious is not a scientific position but an ideological one. The books takes down such atheist greats as Dawkins and discusses the strongest God arguments.
This is an important book that spans an immense literature in a balanced and very readable form. For anyone interested in why some believe and others do not, this book will inform you of the entire range of literature in which not only can the proper questions be asked, but the reader can evaluate the often hidden ideological nature in which answers are proposed Ralph W. Hood, Jr., Ph.D.Professor of Psychology and LeRoy A. Martin Distinguished Professor of Religious Studies
"Hinman is highly stimulating, brilliant in places. It is rare to find a book so exuberant yet still rational."
--Lantz Fleming Miller, Ashoka University
https://www.amazon.com/God-Science-Ideology-examining-religious-scientific/dp/0982408765
Going back to June I don't find one on this topic. This was up several years ago. Give me the title and data of the one you think is the same.
ReplyDeleteYou seem to feel that because Occam was a Christian, the Christian God gets a free pass with Occam's razor.
ReplyDeleteIf Occam did give his own God a free pass, then his razor is faulty. I am sure modern philosophy rejects that version of the razor!
Pix
If you want to look for the simplest explanation for something, perhaps you should ask, "How can a universe come into existence?" You can claim that God made it happen, but if you want to try to find a natural explanation, then the laws of physics should provide that. In physics, there is no law that accounts for an event happening only one time. In fact, those laws are about regularities in the way things behave. So if there is a mechanism that results in the formation of a universe, we should expect that it's not just a one-time thing. We should expect that this mechanism can and does come into play regularly, as is the case with all things that work in accordance with the laws of physics.
ReplyDeleteAt any rate, Occam's razor is not a law. It's a rule of thumb.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteYou seem to feel that because Occam was a Christian, the Christian God gets a free pass with Occam's razor.
If Occam did give his own God a free pass, then his razor is faulty. I am sure modern philosophy rejects that version of the razor!
God is not multiplying enemies beyond necessity. which is what the razor was about. So he get's his pass honestly.
that is multiplying entities. not enemies
ReplyDeleteim-skeptical said...
ReplyDeleteIf you want to look for the simplest explanation for something, perhaps you should ask, "How can a universe come into existence?" You can claim that God made it happen, but if you want to try to find a natural explanation, then the laws of physics should provide that.
where did the laws of physics come from?
In physics, there is no law that accounts for an event happening only one time. In fact, those laws are about regularities in the way things behave. So if there is a mechanism that results in the formation of a universe, we should expect that it's not just a one-time thing. We should expect that this mechanism can and does come into play regularly, as is the case with all things that work in accordance with the laws of physics.
Since you don't know what it is or what produced it in the first place, you have no reason to think there are any other universes. You have yet to account for this one, or for the things that produce this one.
At any rate, Occam's razor is not a law. It's a rule of thumb.
Great! then take out God. Multiverse is not gact it's a theory and it's a theory that begs the question and that was invented to let atheism off the hook. Si the razor is on par with MV.
Joe: God is not multiplying enemies beyond necessity. which is what the razor was about. So he get's his pass honestly.
ReplyDeleteOf course he is.
Explanation 1: God created the universe
Entities: God, universe
Explanation 2: Many universes
Entities: universe
The first explanation clearly has more entities, so should be rejected, as per Occam's razor.
Pix
that should say "things that arise as part of creation are not multiplied beyond necessity they are caused by necessity.
ReplyDelete"where did the laws of physics come from?"
ReplyDelete- They are concepts in the mind of people. We observe how things behave, and we formulate ideas about that behavior. We call those ideas "laws" because they describe the uniformity of behavior in nature.
"Since you don't know what it is or what produced it in the first place, you have no reason to think there are any other universes. You have yet to account for this one, or for the things that produce this one."
- We have theories. We have laws that are derived from our observations. And we have the evidence of observed phenomena. Of course nobody knows the answers with certainty, and that goes for you as well. But science has a pretty good track record for explaining the phenomena of nature. Religion? Not so much.
"Multiverse is not gact it's a theory"
- That's right. And "God did it" is a simplistic appeal to faith.
"it's a theory and it's a theory that begs the question and that was invented to let atheism off the hook."
- You don't understand science. Thety don't invent theories to support atheism. A theory is the best explanation that takes into account all the observations and laws as we know them. Religious explanations, on the other hand, tend to ignore observations and known laws. They could be deemed the "best explanation" only in the mind of someone whose mind is addled by religious ideology.
If all other proposals are off the table God is the only one standing God had to have done it. atheist circular reasoning: "no evidence can't prove God because there is no God.
ReplyDelete"it's a theory and it's a theory that begs the question and that was invented to let atheism off the hook."
ReplyDelete- You don't understand science. Thety don't invent theories to support atheism. That is what physicist Stinehart said in the Horgan article.MV was created to eliminate FT.
"atheist circular reasoning: "no evidence can't prove God because there is no God. "
ReplyDelete- Wrong. We have to follow the evidence, and base out beliefs on what it tells us. You need to accept that evidence supporting God belief is lacking.
"That is what physicist Stinehart said in the Horgan article.MV was created to eliminate FT."
- We went through this. I explained. You didn't listen. It's the equations that had to be fine-tuned. It's the theory that needed to be adjusted. It wasn't about God fine-tuning the universe.
saying the equations have to be fine tunned is BS. yes they do but they represent reality. That's like saying he bridge is there on the road map so it doesn't matter if it's washed out.
ReplyDeletethe evidence for God is not lacking. you you win the God arguments because you can ignore truth an deny Gd you have never beaten a God arguemm.t. look at you BS on FT.
ReplyDelete"saying the equations have to be fine tunned is BS. yes they do but they represent reality."
ReplyDelete- No. They represent a theory. The theory is a concept of reality, but it could be wrong.
"the evidence for God is not lacking. you you win the God arguments because you can ignore truth an deny Gd you have never beaten a God arguemm.t. look at you BS on FT."
- You have your "mystical experience, but that's not objective evidence. The truth is that real objective evidence in not only lacking - it's completely absent.
I quoted a number of physicists some are atheists who seek answers to FT but they can't answer it and know it. Others support it but they aew all good important respected physicists. https://religiousapriori.blogspot.com/2015/10/fine-tuning-argument-part-1.html "Paul Davies, Author of God and The New Physics, and The Mind of God, skeptic turned believer due to the new evidence on design. From First Things, Tempelton Award address:
ReplyDelete"All the richness and diversity of matter and energy we observe today has emerged since the beginning in a long and complicated sequence of self- organizing physical processes. The laws of physics not only permit a universe to originate spontaneously, but they encourage it to organize and complexify itself to the point where conscious beings emerge who can look back on the great cosmic drama and reflect on what it all means."
...The laws that characterize our actual universe, as opposed to an infinite number of alternative possible universes, seem almost contrived-fine-tuned, some commentators have claimed-so that life and consciousness may emerge. To quote Dyson again: it is almost as if "the universe knew we were coming." I cannot prove to you that this is design, but whatever it is it is certainly very clever."Paul Davies, Tempelton Award Address,in First Things"
No offense Skep you are not doing science you are doing propaganda.
ReplyDeleteProjection.
ReplyDeletescientists don't torture the facts if the don't like the conclusion.
ReplyDeleteScientists don't torture the facts. Religionists do. Davies gets paid by Templeton (a religious organization) to write religionist propaganda. And you don't even begin to understand what Steinhart was talking about. You twisted it into a God-did-it argument, but that's not what he said.
ReplyDeleteso it's not enough to be a scientist they have to agree with you. Davies is renown he s a stelller reputation he is not paid by Tempelton he won a prise he's not on salary.
ReplyDeleteI didn't say scientists torture the data but atheists do
ReplyDelete"so it's not enough to be a scientist they have to agree with you."
ReplyDelete- No. I agree with science. There is no scientific data that supports God belief. You have to twist the facts to come up with that conclusion.
"Davies is renown he s a stelller reputation he is not paid by Tempelton he won a prise he's not on salary."
- Davies has a stellar reputation among religionists. Not so much in the scientific community. He won a Templeton prize, and he also gets paid by Templeton on a routine basis for religion-friendly work.
"I didn't say scientists torture the data but atheists do"
- Most scientists are atheists. But the ones who torture the data are usually religionists.
god belief. when the No evidence to support God Belief. that is circular. you are just saying that evidence proves God because there is no God. Fine Tuning clearly points to God the Royal Astronomer said so he was trying to find an answer because he didn't want to believe in God, Other atheist scientists felt the same way. , The religious experience studies prove God,,ifyoiu You try to ignore the data but if you understood it you to agree God us real.
ReplyDeleteNo. I'm saying that objective evidence doesn't support belief in God. There's nothing circular about it. Show me the evidence, and I'll believe. You don't understand what a few scientists have said about fine tuning. Some have said that the universe APPEARS to be fine-tuned, in the same way that biological creatures APPEAR to be designed. But they don't believe that's actually the case, and they don't see it as an argument for God. Some say that the equations that describe the unfolding of the cosmos have to be tweaked in order to make everything work out. They are NOT saying that God did any tweaking. What they mean is that there's probably a better theory that doesn't require tweaking. This is not in any way an argument for God. You don't understand it. You are torturing the facts in a desperate attempt to show that science supports your belief. You are wrong. Face it, Joe. Science does not support belief in God.
DeleteWhat you mean is no ab0lte proof. you jump from no absolute proof to no rational reason to believe. those are tpw different things.
ReplyDeleteI didn't jump at all. You are the only one who keeps talking about proof. I keep talking about objective evidence as the basis for belief. That's what empiricism is all about. That's what science is based on.
Delete