I have a huge aount of material on this issue. I have 4 big pages crammed with stuff. I will be hitting some highlight. for thefull studie see the linkl on thatpages will be links toeaach of the four pages.Here is the link to my pages:
http://religiousapriorijesus-bible.blogspot.com/2011/01/isaiah-53-suffering-servant-sub-menue.html
An atheist site:
Isaiah 52 and 53 involve a lengthy passage about the "suffering servant". Christianity considers this a prophesy about Jesus, but could it instead refer to the nation of Israel? It should be noted that Christians are not alone in seeing the text as a prophesy for a messiah; this was a popular belief among Jews around the time of Jesus. However, that does not prove that Isaiah considered it to be a prophesy. So let us consider two completing scenarios.In the first scenario, Isaiah is prophesying the arrival and crucifixion of Jesus.In the second, Isaiah is bemoaning the fate of Israel. Later, his words are re-interpreted as a prophesy of a messiah, and later still Jesus' life is remodelled to fit that text.[1]
It's really stupid to think that, that would have been way out of control. He asserts that linking the SS with Messiah is something Jews only did in Jesus day. No it was the orthodox Jewish word up to the 20t cnetiry. They only chnaged to destory the effectiveness of Is 53as prophesy of Jesus.
on my site Religious a priori I have a whole page tracing the view that SS is messiah from 200 BCE to 150 CE [2]
Page 2 brings it through middle ages to modern times
Abrabanel (1437-1508) said earlier:[3] Into modern times.
"This is also the opinion of our own learned men in the majority of their Midrashim."
it's taken to be their actual opinion not merely figurative. He's speaking of the interp of Suffering Servant as Messiah.
Rabbi MOSES Alschech(1508-1600) says: "Our Rabbis with one voice accept and affirm the opinion ..that the prophet is speaking of the Messiah, and we shall ourselves also adhere to the same view."
"Rabbi Mosheh Kohen Ibn Crispin: This rabbi described those who interpret Isaiah 53 as referring to Israel as those: "having forsaken the knowledge of our Teachers, and inclined after the `stubbornness of their own hearts,' and of their own opinion, I am pleased to interpret it, in accordance with the teaching of our Rabbis, of the King Messiah....This prophecy was delivered by Isaiah at the divine command for the purpose of making known to us something about the nature of the future Messiah, who is to come and deliver Israel, and his life from the day when he arrives at discretion until his advent as a redeemer, in order that if anyone should arise claiming to be himself the Messiah, we may reflect, and look to see whether we can observe in him any resemblance to the traits described here; if there is any such resemblance, then we may believe that he is the Messiah our righteousness; but if not, we cannot do so." (From his commentary on Isaiah, quoted in The Fifty-third Chapter of Isaiah According to the Jewish Interpreters, Ktav Publishing House, 1969, Volume 2, pages 99-114.)[4] Notice he describes those who say SS is Israel as those: "having forsaken the knowledge of our Teachers" this is modermm, 20th centiry.
After Rashi had popularized the view of Isaiah 53 as referring to Israel, Rabbi Don Yitzchak Abarbanel circa 1500, who did NOT interpret Isaiah 53 as Messianic, concedes the fact that the majority did.
He stated:
"The first question is to ascertain of whom this refers; for the learned among the Nazarenes expound it of the man who was crucified in Jerusalem at the end of the Second Temple . . . Yochanan ben Uzziel interpreted it in the Targum of the future messiah; but this is also the opinion of the learned men in the MAJORITY [emphasis added] of the midrashim."[5] David Baron was a Hebrew-Christian writer of the late 19th century. His "Servant of Jehovah" is his commentary on Isaiah 53, focusing on the meaning of the Hebrew words in the text.
Extract:
In fact, until Rashi (Rabbi Solomon Yizchaki, 1040-1105) applied it to the Jewish nation, the Messianic interpretation of this chapter was almost universally adopted by Jews, and his view, which we shall examine presently, although recieved by Ibn Ezra, Kimchi, and others, was rejected as unsatisfactory by many others, one of whom (R. Mosheh Kohen Ibn Crispin, of Cordova, and afterwards Toledo, fourteenth century, who says rightly, of those who for controversial reasons applied this prophecy to Israel, that "the doors of literal interpretation of this chapter were shut in their face, and that they wearied themselves to find the entrance, having forsaken the knowledge of our teachers, and inclined after the stubborness of their own hearts and of their own opinions." According to Ibn Crispin, the interpretation adopted by Rashi "distorts the passage from its natural meaning", and that in truth "it was given of God as a description of the Messiah, whereby, when any should claim to be the Messiah, to judge by the resemblance or non-resemblance to it whether he were the Messiah or not." cease to exist. And just as the spring loses its value, becomes spoiled and moldy when it has lost its mission and does not water the stream, so would Jewry itself become petrified, barren, and dry if there were no Christendom to fructify it. Without Christendom, Jews would become a second tribe of Samaritans. The two are one. And notwithstanding the heritage of blood and fire which passionate enmity has brought between them, they are two parts of a single whole, two poles of the world which are always drawn to each other, and no deliverance, no peace, and no salvation can come until the two halves are joined together and become one part of God.[6]
[1]on creationsim, "Isaiah's Suffering Servant." website, July 15, 2014" https://oncreationism.blogspot.com/2014/07/isaiahs-suffering-servant.html
[2]Joseph Hinman, "Rabbinical Tradition Backs SS as Messiah" The Religious a priori, website, no date goven. http://religiousapriorijesus-bible.blogspot.com/2011/01/rabbinical-tradition-backs-ss-as-messiah.html
[3]Ibid
[4]Rabbi Mosheh Kohen Ibn Crispin.From his commentary on Isaiah, quoted in The Fifty-third Chapter of Isaiah According to the Jewish Interpreters, Ktav Publishing House, 1969, Volume 2, pages 99-114.
[5]Rabbi Ginsburg of the Yeshivah Tomchei Temimim, Kfar Chabad, Beis Moshiach Magazine Online, ar8_83m
[6]David Baron, judeo Christian Research, websitem, "An Exposition of Isaiah 53" https://juchre.org/isaiah53/part1.htm
12 comments:
There are two ways to defend the support of Donald Trump for president this November:
1. Promoting another four years of improvement of the state of the nation.
2. Preventing another four years of destruction of the state of the nation.
Either presents a legitimate argument, a logical argument, a fact-based argument.
As regards point #1, Trump's record as president begged for a repeat performance in 2020, and he was denied by all manner of fraud, interference, irregularity which resulted in the election actually being stolen from him. His detractors pretend otherwise, as if his record of achievement wasn't enough. As if his manner and eccentricities drove away intelligent voters. Pseudo-sophisticates and the sanctimonious assert he was not presidential material, while those like me maintain that his record proved he indeed was, and then some.
That record included tax and regulatory policy which resulted in a thriving economy, with growth beyond what the impotent Obama said was no longer possible. We were told the weak growth rate was the new normal to which we needed to get used and that a magic wand was required to do better. (Then of course, when better came to be, this same worthless bastard dared to claim the booming economy was due to his efforts.)
It also included oil flowing like Niagara Falls to the extent that our costs were low and our exports were high. And with his support for Keystone and other pipelines, jobs were as plentiful as the oil. It also included a more reasonable cost of living for all, and inflation was low. It included more and better paying jobs to the extent that the unemployment rate for black Americans was the lowest ever since they began tracking that, and the lowest in the nation since the early 1960s, and thus liberated nearly seven million people from food stamps. He lowered drug prices for the first time in 51 years.
It included actual work toward reigning in the number of illegal invaders flowing across our borders. A wall which border agents confirmed was impeding the ability of illegals from crossing, making their jobs easier.
It included pulling out of the Iran Nuclear Deal. The former put a huge financial hurt on Iran and mitigated their ability to finance nuke production as well as terrorist activity (whereas both Obama and now Biden choose to fund both). On that issue, Trump took out an Iranian military leader, Qassem Soleimani and ISIS leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi...two vermin responsible for all sorts of terrorist attacks.
It included the Abraham Accords which brought together Israel and Arab states as well as with us. In doing so, he made it clear that the Jew-hating Gazastinian/West Bankers were not necessary to advance relationships in the region, and did not have to be a veto to every such attempt. It included moving our embassy from Tel Aviv to Israel's capitol in Jerusalem where it should always have been.
It included supporting ASEAN over Chinese expansionism and fighting China's aggression toward its neighbors. Even Vietnam professed its gratitude toward Trump in this regard.
This is a really short list. Trump's achievements, again, justified a second term. There's no thinking person who voted against giving him one. No thinking person would presume to assert he wouldn't continue on that path he started in his first term as there's no rational argument to suggest he wouldn't. Some wish to speak of the debt increase during his presidency. But as I provided for Craig, the debt has no only increased with every president since Nixon, it has increased in the second term of every two-term president. That is, where the debt rose for Obam's first term, it rose again during his second. And as I said, it was the same with every two-termer...Reagan, Clinton, Bush 43 AND Obama. Thus, to hold it against Trump as if it mitigates all of the above good is inane.
who wrote these two comments?
Never mind who I am; someone you don't know. I am challenging you to a debate.
what do you want to debate?
we alredy have a poster named Pixie we call him Pix You might want to find another name, if not that's ok. That is why i wanted to know who you are.
Joe: who wrote these two comments?
Not me!
Pix
Joe: It's really stupid to think that, that would have been way out of control. He asserts that linking the SS with Messiah is something Jews only did in Jesus day. No it was the orthodox Jewish word up to the 20t cnetiry. They only chnaged to destory the effectiveness of Is 53as prophesy of Jesus.
I am not saying that that was ONLY a Jewish belief in Jesus' time; of course plenty believed it was messianic later than that. I am saying that it was not the belief at the time it was written.
When Isaiah 40-66 (often called Second Isaiah) was written, it was understood to refer to the nation of Israel, and not to any messiah. It was written during the Babylonian captivity, and in part refers to the hoped-for resurrection of the nation. The idea that people might be resurrected was a later development of that; one that many Jews of Jesus' time still rejected.
How do we know it is about the nation of Israel? It says so very clearly. Several times.
Isaiah 41:8 ‘But you, Israel, my servant,
Jacob, whom I have chosen,
you descendants of Abraham my friend,
9 I took you from the ends of the earth,
from its farthest corners I called you.
I said, “You are my servant”;
I have chosen you and have not rejected you.
Isaiah 44:1 ‘But now listen, Jacob, my servant,
Israel, whom I have chosen.
Isaiah 44:21 ‘Remember these things, Jacob,
for you, Israel, are my servant.
I have made you, you are my servant;
Israel, I will not forget you.
Isaiah 49:3 He said to me, ‘You are my servant,
Israel, in whom I will display my splendour.’
Isaiah 49:7 This is what the Lord says –
the Redeemer and Holy One of Israel –
to him who was despised and abhorred by the nation,
to the servant of rulers:
‘Kings will see you and stand up,
princes will see and bow down,
because of the Lord, who is faithful,
the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you.’
Christians - and Jews claiming this is about a person - have to rip a chapter and a bit out of context. The messianic prophecy is usually understood to start at 52:13, and continue to 53:12
It starts:
Isaiah 52:13 See, my servant will act wisely;[b]
he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.
14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him[c] –
his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being
and his form marred beyond human likeness –
But just a few verses earlier, this was clearly about the nation:
Isaiah 52:1 Awake, awake, Zion,
clothe yourself with strength!
Put on your garments of splendour,
Jerusalem, the holy city.
The uncircumcised and defiled
will not enter you again.
2 Shake off your dust;
rise up, sit enthroned, Jerusalem.
Free yourself from the chains on your neck,
Daughter Zion, now a captive.
And when we get to chapter 54, again it is clearly talking about the nation:
Isaiah 54:1 “Shout for joy, infertile one, you who have not given birth to any child;
Break forth into joyful shouting and cry aloud, you who have not been in labor;
For the sons of the desolate one will be more numerous
Than the sons of the married woman,” says the Lord.
2 “Enlarge the place of your tent;
[a]Stretch out the curtains of your dwellings, do not spare them;
Lengthen your ropes
And strengthen your pegs.
3 For you will spread out to the right and to the left.
And your [b]descendants will possess nations
And will resettle the desolate cities.
Clearly Jesus did not resettle the cities left desolate when the Israelites were exiled! It was the nation that would do that.
Read in isolation, it may appear that Isaiah 52:13-53:12 is about Jesus, but seen in context it is clear that this whole section of Isaiah is about the nation of Israel in Captivity.
Pix
Apologies, the site reported an error, and I submitted my comment a second and now it is there twice. Feel free to delete one (and only one!), and this comment, Joe.
Pix
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NU8bsqMHwUE
Why not just become a Catholic, Joseph?
Second Isaiah was written during the Captivity. The whole point of it was to: (1) explain why God had allowed the Israelites to be defeated and taken into exile; and (2) offer hope that it was only temporary, the nation would bounce back stronger than ever - the nation would be resurrected!
Most people agree that that is what Isaiah 40:1 to 52:12 and Isaiah 54:1-66:24 are about. It is just those 15 verses in the middle. So let us take a look!
52:13 Behold, My Servant will prosper,
He will be high and lifted up and [h]greatly exalted.
14 Just as many were appalled at you, My people,
So His appearance was marred beyond that of a man,
And His form beyond the sons of mankind.
15 So [i]He will sprinkle many nations,
Kings will shut their mouths on account of Him;
For what they had not been told, they will see,
And what they had not heard, they will understand.
The servant here is the nation of Israel. This is the promise (hope!) that Israel will be great again. Verse 14 is referencing the Captivity; it is the exile of the nation that leaves it "marred beyond that of a man". But all that will change when the nation is resurrected.
53:1 Who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He grew up before Him like a tender [a]shoot,
And like a root out of dry ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we would look at Him,
Nor an appearance that we would take pleasure in Him.
3 He was despised and abandoned by men,
A man of [b]great pain and familiar with sickness;
And like one from whom people hide their faces,
He was despised, and we had no regard for Him.
The first few lines are about the people of Israel being God's chosen; he raised them like a tender shoot!
53:4 However, it was our sicknesses that He Himself bore,
And our pains that He carried;
Yet we ourselves assumed that He had been afflicted,
Struck down by God, and humiliated.
5 But He was [c]pierced for our offenses,
He was crushed for our wrongdoings;
The punishment for our [d]well-being was laid upon Him,
And by His wounds we are healed.
6 All of us, like sheep, have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the wrongdoing of us all
To [e]fall on Him.
This is about how the nation of Israel is suffering through the Captivity - suffering for the sins of the people, and more specifically for not worshipng God properly. Note that it is written in the present tense. This was written while the Captivity was on-going. It is not about something that was going to happen five centures later.
53:7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
There is a difference between the nation of Israel, and the actual people. While the people undoubtedly complained, the nation bore the suffering silently, nobly.
Note that while the gospel state that Jesus said nothing to supposedly fulfill this prophecy, they also record that he did speak!
Pix
53:8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off from the land of the [f]living
For the wrongdoing of my people, to whom the blow was due?
9 And His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
The land of the living was Judah; the people were taken away, and cut off from it. Being part of the land - and being buried there when you died - was a big thing (see here: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ancient-burial-practices). This is lamenting that the dead are being buried in Babylonia, with the rich and wicked Babylonians, rather than in Judah, with their forefathers.
Accordng to the Bible, Jesus was buried in an empty tomb, and not with the rich.
53:10 But the Lord desired
To crush Him, [g]causing Him grief;
If He renders [h]Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His [i]offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the [j]good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.
11 As a result of the [k]anguish of His soul,
He will [l]see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
For He will bear their wrongdoings.
12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the plunder with the strong,
Because He poured out His [m]life unto death,
And was counted with wrongdoers;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the wrongdoers.
This is all about explaining why God allowed the Israelites to be defeated - to atone for the sins of the people.
Pix
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