this is only going to be found on line. go to this URL: http://negations.icaap.org/ see the menu on left side bar, click on winter of 1998, and scroll to the title "Hard Sell of Human Consciousness" by Lantz Miller, part one, then for part Two go to the 2002 issue and just scroll down until you see the title then sroll further to page number. It's well worth reading. If you really care about the top you must read this article.
Sunday, March 18, 2018
Mind is Not Reducible to Brain. (part 1)
this is only going to be found on line. go to this URL: http://negations.icaap.org/ see the menu on left side bar, click on winter of 1998, and scroll to the title "Hard Sell of Human Consciousness" by Lantz Miller, part one, then for part Two go to the 2002 issue and just scroll down until you see the title then sroll further to page number. It's well worth reading. If you really care about the top you must read this article.
68 comments:
- im-skeptical said...
-
Dennett seems to say “we are all zombies, no one is conscious.”
- Before you try to tell us what Dennett says, it might be wise to read his book, rather than just repeating what his critics say about it. Or at least read something besides those critics. Dennett doesn't seem to say that at all. The whole book is about consciousness, not a denial that we have it. What he denies is the claim that there is any immaterial aspect to it. And his comment that we are all zombies is based on a hypothetical definition - IF a zombie is defined as being exactly like a human in every respect with the caveat that it has no immaterial aspect - THEN we are all zombies, because we all fit that definition. Of, course, he predicted (right there in the book that you never read) that his words would be misunderstood or taken out of context. And here we are.
the bran damage argument proves only that brain is essential to accessing consciousness, not that consciousness is reducible to brain function.
- This is not only a bad argument - it is incredibly naive to say that the brain acts like some kind of receiver. I have discussed this issue before. It would be like saying you could remove a transistor from a TV, and it would work as normal, except that it always blurs human faces. Receivers don't work that way. There is no special transistor in a TV that only works for faces (for example). Either the image comes through correctly, or it is distorted, but there is no highly selective distortion of the kind that we observe with neural damage. Highly selective cognitive degradation only implies that the brain itself must be where the ability to discriminate and understand concepts resides. - 8:35 AM
- 7th Stooge said...
-
I have read Dennett, though it's been a while. I remember that in "Consciousness Explained" he wrote: "There is no phenomenology. There only seems to be." (or words to that effect) This is how I interpreted his "We are all zombies" remark, namely that we are not conscious in any way that isn't completely explained and accounted for in functional/ structural terms, that the phenomenal aspect of consciousness is the residue of a certain theoretical understanding of ourselves that an "improved " theory will help to dissolve.
- 1:42 PM
- im-skeptical said...
-
Dennett says that qualia aren't real. I suppose that depends on how you look at it, but I would agree that there are no "things" called qualia out there or that they have any kind of objective aspect. Still, he doesn't deny that we have something that we call consciousness, which includes awareness and the experience of perception.
- 6:18 PM
- Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...
- This comment has been removed by the author.
- 11:52 PM
- Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...
-
Skepie says:
"Before you try to tell us what Dennett says, it might be wise to read his book, rather than just repeating what his critics say about it. Or at least read something besides those critics. Dennett doesn't seem to say that at all. The whole book is about consciousness, not a denial that we have it...."
My answer:
This the kid of arrogant little stupidity that creates the general impression people have that you are an ass.
for your supremely ignorant little information I published one of the first in-depth criticisms of that book. I read it when it first came out. When I say I published it I mean it laterally--I was the publisher of the academic journal Negations the article was buy a guy from MIT. I had David Chalmers referee the article.
- 11:57 PM
- Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...
-
im-skeptical said...
Dennett says that qualia aren't real. I suppose that depends on how you look at it, but I would agree that there are no "things" called qualia out there or that they have any kind of objective aspect. Still, he doesn't deny that we have something that we call consciousness, which includes awareness and the experience of perception.
typical reductionist ploy known as "re-labeling." They just take over reality and change the terms. There are not things called quality but the individual things refereed to as qualia may exist but only in temrs such as I describe them.
If the reader cares to examine the matter he does this consistently with all forms of clash - 12:02 AM
- Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...
-
skepie puts a happy face on Dennett he doesn't really understand what he says. Demnnett is one figure that is not the sum total of reductionist thinking.
- 12:13 AM
- 7th Stooge said...
-
Dennett is an eliminativist. He needs to eliminate the raw feel, the "what it's likeness" of conscious experiences. But this elimination is due, imo, to circular reasoning. He sets himself the task at the outset to fully explain consciousness in terms of current physics. So when he comes across aspects of consciousness that appears as if current physics can't account for, he has to eliminate them (because, you guessed it, he's already set himself the task...)
Qualia don't exist "objectively." The whole point is that they are subjectively experienced. But you can't legitimately argue that qualia don't exist, assuming that reality only includes what objectively exists, because that's what the whole debate is about! You have to give independent reasons why reality includes only what's objective (or third person) in nature. - 1:11 AM
- Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...
-
Another thing Skep, there are only a couple of people I've known who know this topic better than 7th Stooge and one of them Is David Chalmers.
- 2:05 AM
- Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...
-
7th Stooge:"Qualia don't exist "objectively." The whole point is that they are subjectively experienced. But you can't legitimately argue that qualia don't exist, assuming that reality only includes what objectively exists, because that's what the whole debate is about! You have to give independent reasons why reality includes only what's objective (or third person) in nature."
Right you are 7, Skep needs to take a note, this is an example of how he beggs the question. He's assuming something about qualia and he uses that position as as a defense of the position itself.I believe X therefore X proves X. - 2:09 AM
- im-skeptical said...
-
for your supremely ignorant little information I published one of the first in-depth criticisms of that book
- This is the kind of thing that makes you sound so arrogant. I don't care what you "published" on your "online journal"/blog at college. You still don't understand what Dennett was saying. He does NOT believe we are all zombies, and he emphatically does not believe that no one is conscious. If you read and understood the book, you would know that.
skepie puts a happy face on Dennett he doesn't really understand what he says. Demnnett is one figure that is not the sum total of reductionist thinking.
- You haven't defined exactly what you mean by "reductionist". One can only guess what you think it means, but when you say things like "mind reduces to brain", I would reply that NOBODY thinks that, and certainly not Dennett.
Another thing Skep, there are only a couple of people I've known who know this topic better than 7th Stooge and one of them Is David Chalmers.
- David Chalmers is a purveyor of immaterialist woo. His argument based on an incoherent concept of zombies as being "conceivable" is proof that he lives in a fantasy world. - 7:53 AM
- 7th Stooge said...
-
The way I read Dennett was that he's saying there are no simple unanalyzable properties called "qualia." They are not what they appear to be. These qualia are actually analyzable (decomposable) down into finer and finer grained bundles of dispositions. All we see, according to him, are dispositions to behave. I think of it as a very fine-grained internalized behaviorism. The reason we think qualia are simple and essentially connected to this substantial thing called phenomenal consciousness and an ongoing 'self' is because of a myth, a story we've told ourselves over the millennia that was (maybe ) adaptive but has lost whatever adaptive advantage it might have given us.
Chalmers doesn't base his ideas just on zombies. That's just one part of his approach. It must be fun to fling "woo" around. A lot easier than having to make actual arguments! - 12:37 PM
- im-skeptical said...
-
It must be fun to fling "woo" around. A lot easier than having to make actual arguments!
- I have made my own argument in response to Chalmers'. You can read it here. As for this thread, if you want to know exactly when the discussion went downhill and argument went out the window, I urge you to take another look at Joe's first entry into the fray. Ad hominem attacks and argument from authority. This is what I hear from him again and again. Next, he will start deleting my comments. - 2:51 PM
- 7th Stooge said...
-
First off, you start out your post with ad hom swipes at Chalmers, including an attempt to poison the well through tainting his reputation through association, ie by citing the fact that he's popular with theists. You've used the same move against Nagel. You'd probably come across as a bit more formidable if you refrained from such tactics and focused on the arguments themselves.
Then on the second sentence, you make a misleading comment that his position is "based" solely on the p-zombie argument. This is false and would lead most people who've actually read Chalmers to wonder if you've done the same.
Then you equate non-physicalism with substance dualism (Ghost in the machine). Actually there are other types of non-physicalism regarding the mind which I believe Chalmers thinks are more plausible.
Then you assume that p-zombies would lack "minds." They would lack consciousness but would have "minds" insofar as minds are defined as psychologically functions. The point about p-zombies is that psychological functions do not logically entail consciousness.
I agree that total p-zombies would lead to epiphenomenalism. Some non-physicalists are epiphenomenalists. I think partial zombies, such as in cases of blind sight, inverted spectra, fading or absent qualia, avert this problem.
When he writes that "God had more work to do," that was obviously meant as a metaphor. He is an atheist. Who he may or may not be polar with has no bearing on the merit of his arguments. - 11:45 AM
- im-skeptical said...
-
First off, you start out your post with ad hom swipes at Chalmers
- Saying that theists like Chalmers is not an ad hominem, nor is it poisoning the well.
You'd probably come across as a bit more formidable if you refrained from such tactics and focused on the arguments themselves.
- If you read my atricle. you might notice that there is an argument there.
Then on the second sentence, you make a misleading comment that his position is "based" solely on the p-zombie argument. This is false and would lead most people who've actually read Chalmers to wonder if you've done the same.
- That's not what I said. I said "The argument is based on the conceivability of philosophical zombies (or p-zombies)", which is true.
Then you equate non-physicalism with substance dualism (Ghost in the machine).
- Agauinn, that's not what I said. I didn't even mention substance dualism. I was talking about the Christian concept of a soul. Take it any way you like.
Then you assume that p-zombies would lack "minds."
- Right. That's a key part of the definition - no conscious awareness.
He is an atheist. Who he may or may not be polar with has no bearing on the merit of his arguments.
- I did not make any claims about how that quote (or his beliefs) may affect the soundness of his argument.
You advised me to focus on arguments. But you are not focusing on the argument I made. You're just trying to put words in my mouth that I never said. - 4:59 PM
- 7th Stooge said...
-
- That's not what I said. I said "The argument is based on the conceivability of philosophical zombies (or p-zombies)", which is true.
It's confusing though, because Chalmers never makes a "Ghost in the Machine" argument that I'm aware of.
- Saying that theists like Chalmers is not an ad hominem, nor is it poisoning the well.
What was the point then? On this site, you've referred to Thomas Nagel's alleged popularity with theists as grounds to dismiss or at least diminish what he writes
- Agauinn, that's not what I said. I didn't even mention substance dualism. I was talking about the Christian concept of a soul. Take it any way you like.
"Ghost in the Machine" is the title of your post. You're implying that Chalmers' p-zombie argument is a "Ghost in the machine" argument. Where's your evidence?
- Right. That's a key part of the definition - no conscious awareness.
The vast majority of what most people in the relevant fields would label as "mental" happens without conscious awareness. The mind and consciousness are not interchangeable terms.
- 10:45 AM
- im-skeptical said...
-
It's confusing though, because Chalmers never makes a "Ghost in the Machine" argument that I'm aware of.
- What Chalmers does is to assert that mind is separate from body, and indeed that it isn't even a physical entity. This is the concept of the "ghost in the machine", and I don't think it's all that confusing.
What was the point then? On this site, you've referred to Thomas Nagel's alleged popularity with theists as grounds to dismiss or at least diminish what he writes
- You are still reading things into what I have said. I make comments about WHY Christians love people like Nagel or Chalmers. I don't think I have made the argument that they should be dismissed on the grounds of what they believe. I do point out the unscientific or illogical nature of their arguments as a basis for rejecting them. For example, you can see from my article that I showed the incoherency of Chalmers' zombie argument.
"Ghost in the Machine" is the title of your post. You're implying that Chalmers' p-zombie argument is a "Ghost in the machine" argument. Where's your evidence?
- That's his argument. He is saying that mind is a non-material entity. That's what I call a ghost, even if you don't. Sorry if it upsets you.
The vast majority of what most people in the relevant fields would label as "mental" happens without conscious awareness. The mind and consciousness are not interchangeable terms.
- Nevertheless, a zombie is defined as not having any conscious awareness. - 12:21 PM
- Mike Gerow said...
-
Chalmers doesn't assert any theistic type of dualism for which "ghost in the machine" would be appropriate, afaik.
Chalmers argues for an "explanatory gap" from the objective to the subjective, and criticizes physical explanations of mental experience, making him a dualist. Chalmers characterizes his view as "naturalistic dualism": naturalistic because he believes mental states are caused by physical systems (such as brains); dualist because he believes mental states are ontologically distinct from and not reducible to physical systems
from the DC Wiki article.... - 5:45 PM
- im-skeptical said...
-
Chalmers argues that physicalism is false. Questions of reducibility aside, he still thinks there's something non-physical involved. That's what I call the "ghost".
- 6:58 PM
- Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...
-
Chalmers doesn't assert any theistic type of dualism for which "ghost in the machine" would be appropriate, afaik.
Chalmers argues for an "explanatory gap" from the objective to the subjective, and criticizes physical explanations of mental experience, making him a dualist. Chalmers characterizes his view as "naturalistic dualism": naturalistic because he believes mental states are caused by physical systems (such as brains); dualist because he believes mental states are ontologically distinct from and not reducible to physical systems
from the DC Wiki article....
I have always had the impression that Chalmers is a property dualist, - 3:10 AM
- Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...
-
im-skeptical said...
Chalmers argues that physicalism is false. Questions of reducibility aside, he still thinks there's something non-physical involved. That's what I call the "ghost".
re labeling is one of the big tricks of reductionist, just label it into submission by defining it they want to see it, Little more than name callimg. - 3:14 AM
- Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...
-
Gilbert Ryle invented the phrase ghost in the machine to mock Descasrtre's mind/body issues. But so what? It;snot not a logical fallacy, saying that one's views are GITM is no more devastating than saying "Gilbert Ryle disparages of you." Big deal.
There is Skepie begging the question again. he asserts for no valid reason that there's something wrog with saying "he still thinks there's something non-physical involved. That's what I call the 'ghost.'" Big deal. That's assert the validity of the position by appealing to the position itself. You are just saying physical ism is true because it;s not dualism. WE Dadaism is wrong because it's not physicalism.
My appeal to Ryle might generic fallacy except my point is the phrase is not derived from some logical corporation just from the personal likes of a particular philosopher. - 3:39 AM
- Mike Gerow said...
-
I have always had the impression that Chalmers is a property dualist,
Well, it doesn't sound like he believes the "ghost" survives the body, so... isn't that almost the gist of physicalism anyway? - 8:54 AM
- im-skeptical said...
-
Gilbert Ryle invented the phrase ghost in the machine to mock Descasrtre's mind/body issues. But so what? It;snot not a logical fallacy, saying that one's views are GITM is no more devastating than saying "Gilbert Ryle disparages of you." Big deal.
- I never said the term "ghost in the machine" implies a fallacy. That's your own extremely poor comprehension at play, Joe. I simply used it to refer to the apparitional entity that non-physicalists believe in. Apparently, the word 'ghost' gets people all riled up, but I don't know why. Christians have traditionally believed in ghosts as being synonymous with the soul. People who die are said to have "given up the ghost".
There is Skepie begging the question again. he asserts for no valid reason that there's something wrog with saying "he still thinks there's something non-physical involved.
- Why don't you learn to read, Joe. I never said that. Everything I say, you put some ridiculous spin on it. It's no wonder you can't understand arguments. You don't even hear what they're saying.
You are just saying physical ism is true because it;s not dualism. WE Dadaism is wrong because it's not physicalism.
- Not my argument, Joe. I never said that, and you can't point out where I did. - 10:01 AM
- im-skeptical said...
-
Well, it doesn't sound like he believes the "ghost" survives the body, so... isn't that almost the gist of physicalism anyway?
- the gist of physicalism is not whether something survives the body. It is whether it's physical. Chalmers doesn't believe that. - 10:05 AM
- Mike Gerow said...
-
Yeh, but I said "almost"...
;-) - 10:11 AM
- Mike Gerow said...
-
....my point being that Chalmers position is a moderate one between pure physicalism and the substance dualism stances for which GITM might be an appropriate label ..so neither side of the more black vs white popular debate can really claim him as their own...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_in_the_Machine_(album)
(But I think "ghost in the machine" sounds cool, anyway, personally...) - 10:47 AM
- 7th Stooge said...
-
Chalmers argues that physicalism is false. Questions of reducibility aside, he still thinks there's something non-physical involved. That's what I call the "ghost".
But a "ghost" would suggest substance dualism, a distinct immaterial soul substance inside of and directing the brain. You don't have to believe that to think that consciousness is not physical. Although Chalmers I think is open to substance dualism, he leans more toward some kind of neutral monism, that consciousness and physical things are different aspects of the same underlying "stuff."
While we're on the topic, what the heck do we mean by "physical" anyway? It seems to have more to do with what can be known in a certain way rather than what there actually is. - 10:51 AM
- 7th Stooge said...
-
Apparently, the word "ghost" gets people all riled up.
Or is it that the word "ghost" gets physicalists all "Ryled" up? (yuk yuk) - 10:55 AM
- Mike Gerow said...
-
While we're on the topic, what the heck do we mean by "physical" anyway? It seems to have more to do with what can be known in a certain way rather than what there actually is.
Yeh, that's interestingly put, 7th..... - 11:01 AM
- im-skeptical said...
-
But a "ghost" would suggest substance dualism
- I think it can be whatever you want to to be. After all, that's what God is. If you are not bound by laws of nature, who's to say what it must be? You can define it any way you like.
Or is it that the word "ghost" gets physicalists all "Ryled" up? (yuk yuk)
- It's the theists who get perturbed about it.
what the heck do we mean by "physical" anyway?
- Here are some ideas:
That which is bound by the laws of nature.
That for which there is evidence.
That which exists in THIS world. - 11:33 AM
- 7th Stooge said...
-
- It's the theists who get perturbed about it.
It was a joke. Lighten up. I've never gotten upset by the "ghost" epithet. I was only pointing out that you were mischaracterizing Chalmers' argument.
- That which is bound by the laws of nature.
I'm sure you'd say that the laws are mere descriptions of behavior. So "bound" would be a metaphor, I assume. There are lots of things that physical laws wouldn't describe very well if at all, but you could say that these things are necessitated by or supervene on things that the descriptions would apply to.
- That for which there is evidence.
That which exists in THIS world.
This goes back to the discussion about what qualifies as "evidence." You can't define evidence as being support for physical things because that's what the disagreement's about. You have to give independent reasons. And if there are other universes with other kinds of descriptions, they wouldn't be "physical" universes? - 12:23 PM
- 7th Stooge said...
-
"Quantum weirdness" doesn't appear to be bound by natural law. So "physical" would only apply at a certain macro-level scale. But that could lead to the absurd conclusion that physics isn't necessarily investigating physical things.
- 1:26 PM
- Mike Gerow said...
-
....unless you define "physical" as just "whatever stuff does" - but that might give you much limit or boundary on what might or might not be included in "physicality"
- 1:36 PM
- im-skeptical said...
-
I was only pointing out that you were mischaracterizing Chalmers' argument.
- Like I said ...
I'm sure you'd say that the laws are mere descriptions of behavior. So "bound" would be a metaphor, I assume. There are lots of things that physical laws wouldn't describe very well if at all, but you could say that these things are necessitated by or supervene on things that the descriptions would apply to.
- OK. Perhaps I should say That which behaves the way we observe things to behave.
You can't define evidence as being support for physical things because that's what the disagreement's about.
- But I can define evidence as being objectively observed. And as it happens, physical things are objectively observed. Immaterial things are not. Coincidence?
"Quantum weirdness" doesn't appear to be bound by natural law.
- I disagree. It's just not the kind of behavior that you are accustomed to.
unless you define "physical" as just "whatever stuff does"
- Whatever stuff does, it always follows these patterns of regularity that we call laws. - 3:32 PM
- 7th Stooge said...
-
....unless you define "physical" as just "whatever stuff does" - but that might give you much limit or boundary on what might or might not be included in "physicality"
Right. Good point. It would mean "whatever happens," which isn't much help. - 5:42 PM
- 7th Stooge said...
-
How do nonlocality, superposition, reverse causation, etc follow physical law? It makes more intuitive sense (and I acknowledge that intuition isn't always trustworthy) to define "physical" if it can be defined, in terms of a certain kind of understanding.
- 5:51 PM
- im-skeptical said...
-
OK - here's another. Physical things are perceived by the senses (as opposed to believed by the mind). This makes sense to me.
I'm just trying to understand why theists always make such a game of understanding what is meant by "physical". It's as if you don't really know. Why so coy? Could it be that you're just looking for an opening to include non-physical things? If so, why? If and you believe there are other things, why don't you just own your belief, and admit that they're not physical? - 7:08 PM
- 7th Stooge said...
-
Have you ever directly perceived a quark or an electron? Such things seem to be theoretical rather than perceivable.
I have an intuitive sense if what 'physical" means, but intuition isn't that reliable when it comes to philosophical positions like "physicalism." Physicalists are usually the first ones to point out that intuitive, "folk" understandings aren't to be trusted, such as in morality, philosophy of mind and so forth. If someone puts themselves out there as a physicalist in the philosophical sense, it's up to them to give a philosophical definition of the term. - 11:14 AM
- im-skeptical said...
-
Have you ever directly perceived a quark or an electron? Such things seem to be theoretical rather than perceivable.
- Nothing is "directly" perceivable. We detect the presence of things by the physical effects they have on other things. Sometimes, it is through the use of instruments that we are able to detect them, because our biological sensory equipment lacks sufficient range or sensitivity.
intuition isn't that reliable when it comes to philosophical positions like "physicalism."
- Or God. But the difference between these two opposing philosophical positions is that one one is purely intuitive, while the other is supported by all available evidence.
If someone puts themselves out there as a physicalist in the philosophical sense, it's up to them to give a philosophical definition of the term.
- I have given you several definitions. I'll stick with the last one as being the most useful. On the other hand, responsibility should be accepted on both sides. If you want to believe in something for which there is no objective basis, how do you justify that? - 12:11 PM
- Mike Gerow said...
-
The "objective" basis for rejecting physicalism are the simple facts of experience, which would appear to present a different quality of existence than "stuff" does (in the sense Chalmers means when he says you can't know everything there is to know about "red", no matter how hard you've studied, if you've never seen red). If you want to explain why you or anyone else doesn't have experience, or why all our experiences are really essentially made up of the same thing as a rock or something, go ahead, but the onus would be on you in this case, as 7th is also trying to point out.
- 1:54 PM
- Mike Gerow said...
-
Otherwise, I can't see how your claim that consciousness is "physical" is really diifferent than saying "well, matter is magic stuff, too, as well as being purely physical" and your claim might as well be invoking tiny perceiving fairies that lodge in our synapses....
- 2:02 PM
- im-skeptical said...
-
The "objective" basis for rejecting physicalism are the simple facts of experience, which would appear to present a different quality of existence than "stuff" does ...
- That is subjective, NOT objective.
If you want to explain why you or anyone else doesn't have experience, or why all our experiences are really essentially made up of the same thing as a rock or something, go ahead, but the onus would be on you in this case
- I don't claim that we don't have experience. But as much as materialists try to explain the physical nature of consciousness, there are some who refuse to listen. In any case, your own position is not exempt from explanation, and you shouldn't try to pretend it is.
Otherwise, I can't see how your claim that consciousness is "physical" is really diifferent than saying "well, matter is magic stuff, too, as well as being purely physical" and your claim might as well be invoking tiny perceiving fairies that lodge in our synapses....
- Nice try, but unlike your immaterial ghost (or whatever you prefer to call it), physicalism specifically rejects any kind homuncular explanation for conscious perception. - 5:50 PM
- Mike Gerow said...
-
In any case, your own position is not exempt from explanation
Once again, I haven't expressed an opinion on the mind-body problem, only argued for the inadequacy of reductive physicalism....and btw arguing only against something, if you think it provides insufficient explanation, is certainly a valid thing to do. IOW, you can't graft a position onto me, just cuz it would be strategically advantageous to ya if I had one!
All I said was to assume without evidence that consciousness/qualia/perceptions arise from some kind of bio-chemical-electro-reaction that one cannot even begin to describe and that we know virtually nothing about as yet, one might as well assume they arise by magic or from tiny fairies for that matter.
... & it's those kind of problems that cause Dennett and other philosophers like him to adopt elimitivism instead. - 6:18 PM
- im-skeptical said...
-
Otherwise, I can't see how your claim that consciousness is "physical" is really diifferent than saying "well, matter is magic stuff, too, as well as being purely physical" and your claim might as well be invoking tiny perceiving fairies that lodge in our synapses....
- What a phony way to duck the issue. You claim not to take a position., and yet you argue against one side of a two-sided issue. (Mind is either physical or it isn't.) You stand on one side, along with all the other science deniers, and throw rocks at physicalists, and cry "No fair" if they demand the same kind of explanations from you that you demand of them. Bullshit.
All I said was to assume without evidence that consciousness/qualia/perceptions arise from some kind of bio-chemical-electro-reaction that one cannot even begin to describe ...
- As I said, you are a science denier. There's tons of evidence, and there's a major branch of science that deals with it. - 6:47 PM
- Mike Gerow said...
-
Y'know, skep, I suspect you have an essentially black vs. white mentality. Should work on it.....
Nice try, tho.
Tons of evidence? I've never even heard anyone give a cogent theory of bio-cemical-electro-qualia. But im open to persuasion....
Got any links? Everybody will want to see these proofs that perceptions are physical phenomena..... - 8:36 PM
- 7th Stooge said...
-
- Nothing is "directly" perceivable. We detect the presence of things by the physical effects they have on other things. Sometimes, it is through the use of instruments that we are able to detect them, because our biological sensory equipment lacks sufficient range or sensitivity.
What would it mean to "directly perceive" something then if not through our unaided bodily senses? I think it's pretty obvious what's meant by "directly perceive." It's the difference between perceiving my computer screen and a lepton. Who's being coy now?
- Or God. But the difference between these two opposing philosophical positions is that one one is purely intuitive, while the other is supported by all available evidence.
We weren't talking about God but about physicalism, remember? You said that I was being "coy" by acting as if I didn't know what "physical" means. The problem is that my, and I would venture to guess most people's, intuitive sense of what the word means is precisely the kind of meaning you'd reject because it wouldn't support your version of physicalism. I'm just wondering if there's a coherent meaning to the word "physical."
- I have given you several definitions. I'll stick with the last one as being the most useful. On the other hand, responsibility should be accepted on both sides. If you want to believe in something for which there is no objective basis, how do you justify that?
I believe that I'm conscious, a belief for which there is no objective basis. It has a subjective basis, and yet I can't think of a belief I have that's more certain. - 1:38 AM
- im-skeptical said...
-
Tons of evidence? I've never even heard anyone give a cogent theory of bio-cemical-electro-qualia. But im open to persuasion....
Got any links? Everybody will want to see these proofs that perceptions are physical phenomena.....
- Yes, tons of evidence. If you want to learn about it, there are plenty of books in the arena of cognitive sciences. I wouldn't know where to begin. But I can tell you this: when the proponents of a non-physical mind theory come up with any glimmer of an explanation of how their immaterial ghost in the machine is supposed to interact with the physical body, please let me know. But I won't hold my breath. - 7:41 AM
- im-skeptical said...
-
What would it mean to "directly perceive" something then if not through our unaided bodily senses? I think it's pretty obvious what's meant by "directly perceive." It's the difference between perceiving my computer screen and a lepton. Who's being coy now?
- I don't think you understand what I'm saying. We don't directly perceive a computer screen or anything else. We see photons that bounce off things. We feel other various effects that are caused by the interactions of physical objects. Direct perception is an illusion. And i'm not being coy.
We weren't talking about God but about physicalism, remember? You said that I was being "coy" by acting as if I didn't know what "physical" means. The problem is that my, and I would venture to guess most people's, intuitive sense of what the word means is precisely the kind of meaning you'd reject because it wouldn't support your version of physicalism. I'm just wondering if there's a coherent meaning to the word "physical."
- Well, I don't know because you don't seem to be willing to proffer your own definition. I gave you a definition, but you don't seem to be happy with it. So instead of being coy, why don't you just tell me what YOU think it means?
I believe that I'm conscious, a belief for which there is no objective basis. It has a subjective basis, and yet I can't think of a belief I have that's more certain.
- We all think we're conscious. And while it is subjectively based, there's more to it than that. We objectively observe others, and we can see that they're just like us. There' good reason to think they are conscious, too. But that's not the real issue at hand. We are discussing the nature of consciousness - not whether we have it. When I referred to "something for which there is no objective basis", I meant the immaterial mind. That's something that is a mockery of any scientific-based understanding of reality. - 7:55 AM
- 7th Stooge said...
-
- I don't think you understand what I'm saying. We don't directly perceive a computer screen or anything else. We see photons that bounce off things. We feel other various effects that are caused by the interactions of physical objects. Direct perception is an illusion. And i'm not being coy.
Of course there's a causal chain involved in perception. My point was that when the term "direct perception" is used, it refers to unaided perception with our (human) sensory organs. Meanings are contextual. If I say "I gave him the letter directly" the meaning is clear even though there is a complex causal chain involved in my physically transferring the latter from my hand into his hand. I'm saying "directly" in that case to diffentiate it from other ways of delivering the message.
- Well, I don't know because you don't seem to be willing to proffer your own definition. I gave you a definition, but you don't seem to be happy with it. So instead of being coy, why don't you just tell me what YOU think it means?
But you're the one making such a big deal out of being a "materialist" and "physicalist." I'm admitting it's a problematic term.
- We all think we're conscious. And while it is subjectively based, there's more to it than that. We objectively observe others, and we can see that they're just like us. There' good reason to think they are conscious, too. But that's not the real issue at hand. We are discussing the nature of consciousness - not whether we have it. When I referred to "something for which there is no objective basis", I meant the immaterial mind. That's something that is a mockery of any scientific-based understanding of reality.
The point is that I cannot know that you are conscious in the same way that I know I am conscious. You cannot know what my headache feels like the way that I can. You can infer, imagine, what it might feel like but this projection would be based on your own experiences of similar pains. 1st person and third person are two different kinds of knowing. - 12:16 PM
- im-skeptical said...
-
Of course there's a causal chain involved in perception. My point was that when the term "direct perception" is used, it refers to unaided perception with our (human) sensory organs.
- OK. But given the context of the conversation, the point was that physical things are perceivable by the senses (regardless of whether it is "directly"). That includes things like quarks, which can be detected, even if not directly by our senses.
But you're the one making such a big deal out of being a "materialist" and "physicalist." I'm admitting it's a problematic term.
- And I gave you a definition of what I mean by it. The definition is pretty clear. i don't think it's very problematic at all.
1st person and third person are two different kinds of knowing.
- That's right. But there's still no reason to say that one of them must be somehow immaterial. It's just different. That's all. - 1:57 PM
- 7th Stooge said...
-
Things like quarks can be indirectly inferred from things that are directly perceived, usually through long inferential chains. But so can so called "immaterial" things be inferred. The question is whether or not the inferences are justified.
So your definitions of "physical" are problematic because things at very small scales aren't directly perceived and don't necessarily follow physical laws.
- That's right. But there's still no reason to say that one of them must be somehow immaterial. It's just different. That's all.
Here's what you wrote in a previous post:
- If you want to believe in something for which there is no objective basis, how do you justify that?
My belief that I'm conscious has no objective basis as far as my believing it, even if my being conscious is a physical process, whatever that means. Even if my consciousness is ultimately some kind of physical thing, it can only be directly accessed subjectively. - 3:20 PM
- im-skeptical said...
-
Things like quarks can be indirectly inferred from things that are directly perceived, usually through long inferential chains. But so can so called "immaterial" things be inferred. The question is whether or not the inferences are justified.
- You completely fail to understand. It's not about what we can infer. it's about what we can detect. Physical things have physical impacts on other physical things. And that's what we detect, whether directly through our senses, or with the aid of instruments.
Even if my consciousness is ultimately some kind of physical thing, it can only be directly accessed subjectively.
- So what? That doesn't mean it must not be physical. My point is that any such conclusion that conscious thought must be non-physical is unjustified by this whole line of reasoning. - 3:32 PM
- 7th Stooge said...
-
- So what? That doesn't mean it must not be physical. My point is that any such conclusion that conscious thought must be non-physical is unjustified by this whole line of reasoning.
That wasn't my point. I was addressing your question:
- If you want to believe in something for which there is no objective basis, how do you justify that? - 12:20 PM
- Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...
-
- That's right. But there's still no reason to say that one of them must be somehow immaterial. It's just different. That's all.
the whole subatomic thing is just a trick of book keeping, it;s not even real much less solid; particles are not particles they are bits of field but field is made it of particles. which means field is field which is tautology there is no evidence that SAP are material of physics no real indication of what ohsyicakmeans - 1:25 PM
- Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...
-
The vacuum is "empty" in every precise sense of the word. What we call "particles" in quantum field theory are states created by so-called annihilation and creation operators, which represent "substracting" and "adding" a particle of a certain type to a state. The free vacuum is by definition precisely the state from which you cannnot substract anything, hence it is "empty". The interacting vacuum is by definition the lowest-lying energy state, but we can't talk about particles for interacting states, so it's meaningless to ask if it is "empty"....The "boiling brew of particles" is a misinterpretation of what so-called vacuum bubbles mean. They are the Feynman diagrams that contribute to the energy of the interacting vacuum state, and if internal lines of such diagrams described actual particles, then these diagrams would mean a continuous creation and annihilation of particles in the vacuum. But the internal lines of Feynman diagrams are not associated to actual particles states (i.e. no creation/annihilation operator of the free theory belongs to them), so this is nonsense. There are no particles in the vacuum and they don't create a universe....He is misinterpreting Feynman diagrams to give laymen reading the book a magical and mysterious, but math-free picture of what quantum field theory is about. This picture is almost completely wrong.It's the lowest-lying energy state of the theory, and the start for so-called perturbation theory. Not much more.[11]
Another poster, Arnold Neumaier:
The only way the usual dynamical language for virtual particles is justified by the theory is as purely figurative analogy in ”virtual reality”, useful for informal talk about complicated formulas and for superficial summaries in lectures capturing the imagination of the audience.This has to be kept in mind when reading in professional scientific publications statements involving virtual particles. Otherwise many statements become completely misleading, inviting a magical view of microphysics and weird speculation, without the slightest support in theory or experiment.[12]
Two things we need to know to make sense of what was just said. First, wen physicists speak of :"nothing" they don't mean that in the sense most people use it. They mean something very different, Understanding this will tell us what they mean by Qm vacuum. ohnRennie tells us:
In Physics "nothing" is generally taken to be the lowest energy state of a theory. We wouldn't normally use the word "nothing" but instead describe the lowest energy state as the "vacuum". I can't think of an intuitive way to describe the QM vacuum because all the obvious analogies have "something" instead of nothing "nothing", so I'll do my best but you may still find the idea hard to grasp. That's not just you - everybody finds it hard to grasp..[13]
[11] A curious Mind (moderator of stack exchange) Ibid.
[12]Arnold Neumaier, Stack Exchange, Ibid.
Neumaier Lectures at the Institute of Quantum Optics and Quantum Information of the Austrian Academy of Sciences, University of Vienna.
[13] John Rennie, ''What is meant by Nothing in Physics./ Quatum Physics?" Physics Stack Exchange (June 29, 2012)
https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/30973/what-is-meant-by-nothing-in-physics-quantum-physics
(accessed 3/29/2012)
- 1:31 PM
- im-skeptical said...
-
That wasn't my point. I was addressing your question: ...
- The question was about physicalism versus whatever it is that you believe, which you said is only accessible by subjective means. My point is that there is objective evidence and ample reason to believe in a physical world. What you believe is not supported by any objective evidence. - 5:21 PM
- im-skeptical said...
-
the whole subatomic thing is just a trick of book keeping, it;s not even real much less solid; particles are not particles they are bits of field but field is made it of particles. which means field is field which is tautology there is no evidence that SAP are material of physics no real indication of what ohsyicakmeans
- WOW! talk about changing the subject. Why do I have to keep telling you to follow the conversation, Joe? OK if you want to go back to this again ...
The vacuum is "empty" in every precise sense of the word.
- That's what I've been telling you. In other words, the universe comes nothing.
What we call "particles" in quantum field theory are states created by so-called annihilation and creation operators, which represent "substracting" and "adding" a particle of a certain type to a state.
- Again, that's what I've been telling you. The so-called quantum field is nothing more than equations on a chalkboard.
The only way the usual dynamical language for virtual particles is justified by the theory is as purely figurative analogy in ”virtual reality”
The "particles" from which virtual particles are made don't actually exist.
You know, Joe, it would be nice if you actually understood some of this stuff you keep quoting to make yourself sound like some kind of physics expert.
- 5:33 PM
- 7th Stooge said...
-
- The question was about physicalism versus whatever it is that you believe, which you said is only accessible by subjective means. My point is that there is objective evidence and ample reason to believe in a physical world. What you believe is not supported by any objective evidence.
Yes. That's my point! And so do you! - 12:27 PM
- im-skeptical said...
-
What we see in our world is physical stuff.
There is nothing we observe that isn't physical.
NOTHING.
Why are people physicalists?
- Evidence.
- Science.
Why do people believe in non-physical things (especially mind)?
- Religion.
- Traditional ways of thinking that originated with religion. - 2:51 PM
- Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...
-
m-skeptical said...
What we see in our world is physical stuff.
There is nothing we observe that isn't physical.
NOTHING.
That is bull shit, people see things that are not physical,all the time, of course then you discount it because they are not suppose to. More begging the quesitoin.
Why are people physicalists?
- Evidence.
- Science.
Noe, ideology, there is no scientific evidence that disproves the spiritual. There is no evidence that proves that there is no spiritual. In fact the evidence clearly proves there is.
Why do people believe in non-physical things (especially mind)?
- Religion.
- Traditional ways of thinking that originated with religion.
that is a meaningless question begging answer. It's recursion
People believe non physical reality because we experience it all the time,I do not have a city physically in my brain called "Kandor."I can focus on the world of Kandor then I'm there, but not physically. Everything we Kiowa about the world comes to us through the medium of the non physical.All our knowledge of the physical is mediated through the nonphysical, it actually doe snot stack up. the world we think of as physical is actually the world created in our minds. That is common knowledge it;s well proven by optometrists and psychologists,
- 2:25 AM
- Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...
- This comment has been removed by the author.
- 2:32 AM
- Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...
-
Skepie you are an intellectual wusssie,
- 2:33 AM
- Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...
-
What we call "particles" in quantum field theory are states created by so-called annihilation and creation operators, which represent "substracting" and "adding" a particle of a certain type to a state.
that is drivel, particles are field and field is particles, it's recursive. They don't know. I quote the physicist saying all references that do not involve math are misleading. get it? hear the words, dork. Misleading! the little psycho-babel you just uttered is saying the same fucking thing I just said dumbass!
- Again, that's what I've been telling you. The so-called quantum field is nothing more than equations on a chalkboard.
- 2:40 AM
- Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...
-
You know, Joe, it would be nice if you actually understood some of this stuff you keep quoting to make yourself sound like some kind of physics expert.
That is a personal attack,when you resort to personal attack you are telling us you can't support your position. If you feel that can't support your position with research and logic maybe you should rethink your position.
7 has kicked your ass several times now, - 3:36 AM
- im-skeptical said...
-
Skepie you are an intellectual wusssie
That is a personal attack,when you resort to personal attack you are telling us you can't support your position. If you feel that can't support your position with research and logic maybe you should rethink your position. - 7:47 AM
- Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...
-
gee why didn't I think of saying that? But no it's a personal attack I ALREADY BACKED MY ARGUMENTS YOU COULD NOT ANSWER THEM; THAT'S WHY YOU RESORTED TO YOUR FEEBLE LYING SLANDER.
- 12:47 PM
- Joseph Hinman (Metacrock) said...
-
ok this topic is closed.
- 12:47 PM