tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post904191286380046164..comments2024-03-29T01:14:19.030-07:00Comments on Metacrock's Blog: Nature of the AtonementJoseph Hinman (Metacrock)http://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-59530147885613714722009-10-13T18:22:25.871-07:002009-10-13T18:22:25.871-07:00"It is not those who hear the law who are rig..."It is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13<br />Maybe you need to find out which law he is referring to.Theodore A. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10197982266788152081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-8654569449060986782009-07-19T16:53:14.960-07:002009-07-19T16:53:14.960-07:00Oh, I see. That makes sense-- I can agree with th...Oh, I see. That makes sense-- I can agree with that.<br /><br />Thanks for the explanation, Joe.Kristenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08252374623355509404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-17755796083815921132009-07-19T05:35:41.234-07:002009-07-19T05:35:41.234-07:00The view I am defending is called "participat...The view I am defending is called "participatory." Jesus participated in life as a man to show us he's on our side. That's the same thing as solidarity. This is view really well defended by D.E.H.Whitely in his 1965 book <i>Theology of St. Paul.</i> You should really read it.<br /><br />The reason it's not just symbolic and does pertain to soeteriology is because solidarity is the ground for forgiveness. What's' the difference in saying "I am so on your side I'm willing to identify with you so much I become one of you and share your fate," and Grace? <br /><br />We have to accept God's solidarity, and enter into a state of solidarity with God. When we do that the grounds for forgiveness is created, you can't be in solidarity with someone against whom you hold morally guilty. Solidarity would mean you forgive their flaws and "sins" and they drop any grudges they hold.<br /><br />Of course it doesn't work that way in politics, but politics is by its nature less than moral perfection. This is not really politics that's just an analogy.<br /><br />This process of entering into solidarity with God is described by Paul in Romans where he talks about we enter into Christ's death. He talking about how we enter into a relationship with God by placing ourselves into Christ's death (I think this is chapter six) and reckoning ourselves dead to sin "but alive to Christ." That's solidarity!<br /><br />At that point sin is forgiven.Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-77936538839437057552009-07-18T20:24:51.437-07:002009-07-18T20:24:51.437-07:00My problem with the idea of the Atonement being an...My problem with the idea of the Atonement being an expression of solidarity, is that it seems to make the Atonement merely symbolic.<br /><br />Maybe this is because I'm used to thinking of solidarity as a political term, in which someone is simply saying, "Hey, this is which side I'm on." If all Jesus was doing was saying he was on our side and we could be on his-- in what way does that deliver us from the state of bondage to sin? In what way does that actually change our hearts so that we can receive the indwelling presence of God?<br /><br />I think that all the usual ideas-- from penal substitution to financial transaction-- are metaphors expressing something deeper, something that needed to happen, and for more than just to say, "hey, God is with you." Jesus didn't die just so we could realize God wanted to forgive us-- the Atonement was <i>necessary</i> to free us from bondage to sin on a spiritual level, so that we <i>could</i> be on God's side and God on ours. <br /><br />I agree with the idea of identification-- we identify with Jesus and Jesus identifies with us, so that his sacrifice becomes our sacrifice and his resurrection resurrects us-- but to me "solidarity" to me means something weaker than that. Perhaps, though, this is just a misunderstanding on my part. Could you explain further, Metacrock?Kristenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08252374623355509404noreply@blogger.com