tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post3097326289837748008..comments2024-03-29T03:30:25.637-07:00Comments on Metacrock's Blog: Brap Gronk 3Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)http://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-73128718781843518652010-08-29T03:13:10.281-07:002010-08-29T03:13:10.281-07:00you really need to get the book.I spent two years ...you really need to get the book.I spent two years writing it, or three really. It answers this stuff much better but I don't want to put that out here because I want people to buy the book.Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-22332180680515141952010-08-29T03:12:02.000-07:002010-08-29T03:12:02.000-07:00Meta: "why doesn't all belief produce it?...Meta: "why doesn't all belief produce it?"<br /><br />Because most, if not all, beliefs are trivial compared to the belief that one is moving closer to God in terms of experience, understanding and sense of devotion and transformation power.<br /><br /><br /><b>But people for whom mystical experience is a conversion experience, never had it before and don't think about moving closer to God.<br /><br />the argument that they just start living better doesn't explain much of the phenomena either. People who are not drinking and smoking and sleeping around so it's not that stop those things, they wind up less depressed, using their minds more, feel assured. you want to dismiss that as "O they are psyched into it" but you no DATA!<br /><br />you HAVE NOT ONE SINGLE STUDY TO BACK UP SAYING THIS CAN HAPPEN. you are clutching at straws because you have no other way to explain it.<br /><br />Its' also kind of silly to avoid this wonderful blessing because you have a "maybe" that cancels it out. Why go to the trouble to expalin it away so you can avoid it when it's obviously the fulfillment of everything people want.<br /><br />Plug that in with the existential arguments there's no reason to not to believe.</b><br /><br /><br />Meta: "how could believe do that anyway? you are assuming that it's minimized its not a dramatic big deal. It is a dramatic big deal. "<br /><br />My point exactly. The belief (growth process) that goes hand-in-hand with the RE is a dramatic big deal. In fact, it's such a big deal that I can't imagine how it wouldn't be transformative. <br /><br /><br /><b>But no other big deal people go through that is so successful. Just dismissing it as a trick of the mind is not going to cut it. people don't normally get their lives together just because they experience a big deal.<br /><br />most big deals we experience are traumatic and negative. the one area that happens to be different just happens to confirm that God is real.<br /><br />the content of the experience is the presence of God and the deep utter life along assurance that God is real.<br /><br />your position is going to collapse into "It has to be untrue because it works." no one every say that. the car is running well it must be broken.</b>Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-17596019318839116642010-08-28T18:56:59.044-07:002010-08-28T18:56:59.044-07:00Meta: "why doesn't all belief produce it?...Meta: "why doesn't all belief produce it?"<br /><br />Because most, if not all, beliefs are trivial compared to the belief that one is moving closer to God in terms of experience, understanding and sense of devotion and transformation power.<br /><br /><br />Meta: "how could believe do that anyway? you are assuming that it's minimized its not a dramatic big deal. It is a dramatic big deal. "<br /><br />My point exactly. The belief (growth process) that goes hand-in-hand with the RE is a dramatic big deal. In fact, it's such a big deal that I can't imagine how it wouldn't be transformative.Brap Gronkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03075378067530053755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-81373590607941644362010-08-28T17:45:57.124-07:002010-08-28T17:45:57.124-07:00My position, again, is that the change in beliefs ...My position, again, is that the change in beliefs is what leads to the transformative effects (or the perception of transformative effects).<br /><br /><br /><b>why doesn't all belief produce it?<br /><br />how could believe do that anyway? you are assuming that it's minimized its not a dramatic big deal. It is a dramatic big deal.</b>Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-80720358843671524222010-08-28T17:44:50.036-07:002010-08-28T17:44:50.036-07:00Subject is initially leading a "normal" ...Subject is initially leading a "normal" life.<br />- Subject has RE.<br />- Subject leads a "transformed" life after the RE.<br /><br />That's surely a simplistic view, but let me know if it's incorrect or missing any important details.<br /><br />Assuming God didn't change during or after the RE, what happened to the subject? Did the subject's beliefs change? Was the subject subconsciously blocking (sabotaging) these potentially transformative effects from occurring before the RE, and now after the RE this blocking is no longer occurring? Or did nothing happen to the subject, other than the memory of the RE?<br /><br />My position, naturally, is that the change in beliefs is what leads to the transformative effects (or the perception of transformative effects). There are other beliefs that can have lesser effects on a person, such as paranoia, optimism, or Rhonda Byrne’s “The Secret.” If some beliefs can have effects of magnitude A, other beliefs may have effects of magnitude B. Given the importance of a belief in an individual's connection to God, it's no surprise to me that such a belief would have effects of the greatest magnitude. <br /><br /><b>belief is a process of growth. Growth means successive moves close to God in terms of experience, understanding and sense of devotion and transformation power.</b>Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-82390312052902739542010-08-28T12:29:58.431-07:002010-08-28T12:29:58.431-07:00"It can't be just the belief since those ..."It can't be just the belief since those without the experience would experience the transformative nature of it and they don't. It's greater for those who have the experience."<br /><br />Ok, I'll restate the lead-in to my position like this: Rather than simply believing in God, those who have had an RE have a different set of beliefs than the "regular" believers, which is a belief that they had an RE. If the RE is transformative even for people who were believers before having the RE, their general belief in God may not have changed, but their belief (and/or memory) that they had the mystical or religious experience must have changed.<br /><br />Simply believing is one thing, but believing you had an intensely personal connection, a sense of oneness, that you "saw the light" or any other suitable description of the RE, that must be a totally different thing which, if it doesn't lead to some additional beliefs, certainly intensifies some existing ones.<br /><br />My position, again, is that the change in beliefs is what leads to the transformative effects (or the perception of transformative effects).Brap Gronkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03075378067530053755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-31185149812236393292010-08-28T03:38:54.682-07:002010-08-28T03:38:54.682-07:00I’m not dismissing one fragment of your research (...I’m not dismissing one fragment of your research (one fossil), I'm dismissing all of it (as demonstrating God as a plausible cause of mystical experiences). Most Non-Mormons dismiss the book of Mormon because they don't believe any gold plates existed, not because they think one verse on plate #4 was translated improperly by Joseph Smith.<br /><br /><br /><b>what you are really admitting is that it doesn't fit your truth regime, your brain washing, your cult propaganda that's why wont even consider it for 2 seconds in an open minded way.<br /><br />Look at your grounding assertion, "O that's as invalid as mormonism>" <br /><br />why would anyone compere 200 academic studies in preer reviewed journals with Mormonism?<br /><br /><br />you start from the premise "If anything contradicts my ideology it has to be wrong a prori, my ideology is the only one that's valid and the source of knowledge.<br /><br />even when knowledge comes from your own source mythology you discount it if it contradicts your ideology, because your view is an ideology.<br /><br />all you are really saying is that you are absorbing it into the paradigm.</b>Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-20216636525014751302010-08-28T03:32:39.035-07:002010-08-28T03:32:39.035-07:00It can't be just the belief since those withou...It can't be just the belief since those without the experience would experience the transformative nature of it and they don't. It's greater for those who have the experience.Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-80242382092494536162010-08-27T19:11:38.626-07:002010-08-27T19:11:38.626-07:00Meta: "The result of having the experience ca...Meta: "The result of having the experience cannot be explained. The qulia that make up the experience itself are linked to brain chemistry and manipulation of the brain, but what is not linked to anything is the link to the result; the life transforming effects. There is no external cause that can be linked to long term positive effects of such a dramatic nature, and all the organic processes are degenerative. There is nothing that can explain how it is that having this experience changes your life so."<br /><br />I can't think of anything more potentially transformative than believing I have a connection to the creator of the universe, or believing that the creator of the universe knows I exist, loves me, and cares about what I do and think. Surely you aren’t discounting the importance or magnitude of such a belief. No connection or relationship with a spouse, parent, child, entire family, or entire community can compare, wouldn’t you agree? But notice I said "believing" in that first sentence. (I'll use "God" instead of “creator of the universe” just for simplicity going forward. I know there may be a more preferred term to describe the entity that is the cause of mystical experiences.) If God exists, is it true that he loves everyone: believers, non-believers, and those on the fence? If he does, then God's existence alone is apparently non-transformative, otherwise we would all lead transformative lives from birth to death and there wouldn't be any non-transformative lives to compare the transformative lives to. So something changes along the way to create these transformative effects, otherwise there would be nothing to measure.<br /><br />If I understand you correctly regarding these studies, these long-term transformative effects are initiated (usually, perhaps not always) by the mystical or religious experience (RE). So the chronology of a typical subject in these studies is:<br /><br /> - Subject is initially leading a "normal" life.<br /> - Subject has RE.<br /> - Subject leads a "transformed" life after the RE.<br /><br />That's surely a simplistic view, but let me know if it's incorrect or missing any important details.<br /><br />Assuming God didn't change during or after the RE, what happened to the subject? Did the subject's beliefs change? Was the subject subconsciously blocking (sabotaging) these potentially transformative effects from occurring before the RE, and now after the RE this blocking is no longer occurring? Or did nothing happen to the subject, other than the memory of the RE?<br /><br />My position, naturally, is that the change in beliefs is what leads to the transformative effects (or the perception of transformative effects). There are other beliefs that can have lesser effects on a person, such as paranoia, optimism, or Rhonda Byrne’s “The Secret.” If some beliefs can have effects of magnitude A, other beliefs may have effects of magnitude B. Given the importance of a belief in an individual's connection to God, it's no surprise to me that such a belief would have effects of the greatest magnitude.Brap Gronkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03075378067530053755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-34796143937600059002010-08-27T19:02:29.756-07:002010-08-27T19:02:29.756-07:00Brap (previously): “I have read your links in the ...Brap (previously): “I have read your links in the past where you discuss the studies about mystical experiences and their documented transformations. The reason this atheist doesn’t view that evidence as a rational reason to believe in God is that the cause of the mystical experiences themselves is too easily explained by the current state of knowledge about neuropsychology, cognitive sciences, etc.”<br /><br />Meta: "Here's an analogy to what's going on there. That's like if you argue with a young earth guy and shows conclusively that one fossil is really much younger than it's supposed to be, they says "see that proves the whole age of the earth is off and it's really only 10,000 years old." Then he doesn't' listen to your answer and goes off for the next 40 years telling people he's proved that the earth is only 10,000 years old. That's exactly what you and all other atheists are doing."<br /><br />I’m not dismissing one fragment of your research (one fossil), I'm dismissing all of it (as demonstrating God as a plausible cause of mystical experiences). Most Non-Mormons dismiss the book of Mormon because they don't believe any gold plates existed, not because they think one verse on plate #4 was translated improperly by Joseph Smith.<br /><br />Brap (previously): “They have natural explanations, in other words. (See Valerie Tarico’s work)”<br /><br />Meta: "Wrong there are several problems with that.<br />(1) no research, not Tarico or anyone who claims to have evoked religious experience by manipulating the brain has actually used the M scale. That means they can't prove they did evoke mystical experience because they can't demonstrate what it is. . . . Without that there is no proof that mystical experience can be evoked by brain chemistry or stimulating parts of the brain."<br /><br />It’s really a moot point because even if a legit study did use the M scale to confirm mystical experiences can be evoked by brain chemistry or simulating parts of the brain, believers would still say a naturalistic explanation doesn't mean God isn't involved. And that’s really the crux of the matter.<br /><br />For Group A, Naturalistic explanations ==> God not required ==> God doesn’t exist.<br /><br />For Group B, Naturalistic explanations ==> Not sufficient to rule out God’s involvement ==> It’s rational to believe God exists.Brap Gronkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03075378067530053755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-44167028411834069722010-08-27T16:08:41.123-07:002010-08-27T16:08:41.123-07:00"...since I was an atheist. I know my experie...<i>"...since I was an atheist. I know my experiences are not representative of all atheists, but I think that gives me as much of a right to comment on the psychology of atheism as you have to comment on the psychology of Christianity."</i><br /><br />And where exactly have you ever seen me making generalizations about the psychology of Christians in general? I try to avoid that sort of bigotry...<br /><br /><i>"Typical of atheists that you can't take your own medicine. Atheists are always telling us why we believe, why we are stupid for believing, why religion exists how the reason for it is stupid ect ect."</i><br /><br />Again, where have you ever seen me do that? Seems to me you're the one who can't take his own medicine since you're the one using the bad behaviour of others to justify your own bigoted hate speech.<br /><br />Not typical Christian behaviour, to be sure, but certainly typical Metacrock beheviour.A Hermitnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-91873158843767989472010-08-27T03:24:37.773-07:002010-08-27T03:24:37.773-07:00There's nothing bigoted about that. Especially...There's nothing bigoted about that. Especially since I was an atheist. I know my experiences are not representative of all atheists, but I think that gives me as much of a right to comment on the psychology of atheism as you have to comment on the psychology of Christianity.<br /><br />Typical of atheists that you can't take your own medicine. Atheists are always telling us why we believe, why we are stupid for believing, why religion exists how the reason for it is stupid ect ect.Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-4641853192174030332010-08-26T18:12:09.480-07:002010-08-26T18:12:09.480-07:00"The atheist ability to fairly evaluate evide...<i>"The atheist ability to fairly evaluate evidence for God is like the ability of people in the deep south in the 1950s to fairly evaluate the notion of integration. God is speaking to our hearts. Atheists are people who closet heir hearts to the truth God is speaking because they seek to protect little pet sins."</i><br /><br />More bigotry. Fuck you Rush (did I get the Texas accent right?)A Hermitnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-21216370722223158182010-08-26T06:59:22.733-07:002010-08-26T06:59:22.733-07:00well in all fairness, Brap is not a typical athei...well in all fairness, Brap is not a typical atheist. He's an alien from another galaxy. Brighter han a lot earth people I've met (present company excepted).<br /><br />great to "see" you again man. how's it going?Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-15121996537343249872010-08-25T23:38:38.300-07:002010-08-25T23:38:38.300-07:00What do you expect from the typical Atheist?What do you expect from the typical Atheist?ZAROVEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17668854596329493360noreply@blogger.com