tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post1763689401576233335..comments2024-03-29T01:14:19.030-07:00Comments on Metacrock's Blog: How I can be Politically Liberal and Believe "that God Stuff."Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)http://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-62260511066320111492010-11-12T03:25:23.855-08:002010-11-12T03:25:23.855-08:00what's your next move Loren, join the tea part...what's your next move Loren, join the tea party?Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-66778554408234356242010-11-12T03:24:51.720-08:002010-11-12T03:24:51.720-08:00Metacrock, just about everybody in the 18th cy. No...Metacrock, just about everybody in the 18th cy. North American British colonies was at least a nominal Xian. So why did they treat their supposedly all-important religion as irrelevant?<br /><br />Think of the propaganda value that waving the Bible would have had -- they could have declared that King George III was the Antichrist, for instance.<br /><br /><b>that is a quite pathetic argument Loren. That really show true ignorance of the period. Did you see "American Experience" on PBS recently where they had a week long special on religion in America. They showed the American revolution was extremely motivated by Christian theology.<br /><br />but you are trying construct a view of how Christian belief would play out based upon modern fundies rather than the way Christians were then.<br /><br />They did use Christaniity to sell the revelation but they did it in a way that fit their times that's why you don't recognize it.</b><br /><br />I also think that it's a rather damning indictment of the Bible to suppose that it needs enormous amounts of detective work to find its true meaning. It shouldn't need any such thing.<br /><br /><br /><b>more ahtiewst pi pi ka ka. Bull shit you say because you have nothing else to say. All belief sysmtems do that.<br /><br />every heard of Postmodernism? That's such a stupid argument. <br /><br />what good is this science stuff, gosh you have to become a physicist to understand it!</b>Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-57841408570852098932010-11-11T22:11:41.237-08:002010-11-11T22:11:41.237-08:00Metacrock, just about everybody in the 18th cy. No...Metacrock, just about everybody in the 18th cy. North American British colonies was at least a nominal Xian. So why did they treat their supposedly all-important religion as irrelevant?<br /><br />Think of the propaganda value that waving the Bible would have had -- they could have declared that King George III was the Antichrist, for instance.<br /><br />I also think that it's a rather damning indictment of the Bible to suppose that it needs enormous amounts of detective work to find its true meaning. It shouldn't need any such thing.Lorenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13984896453534621864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-19160592037897853652010-11-09T18:22:04.290-08:002010-11-09T18:22:04.290-08:00There are many threads in Christianity which go ba...There are many threads in Christianity which go back to its origins which we would consider "liberal" today. Even the current pope endorses many positions that Republicans have labeled "socialist". The kind of Biblical literalism and inerrancy we see today is about 200 years old and our Christian fundamentalism began in the 1900s, both of which Metacrock mentioned and which is also explored in depth in <i>The Case for God</i> by Armstrong. So if anything, the ultra-conservative fundamentalist types are the ones who have been trying to re-write theology and the history of the faith, just as they are trying to re-write US history in high school textbools, etc, et.<br /><br />There are of course those who are politically liberal who want to re-write things as well, but they tend to be a minority of leftist to right of center Christians. Most simply emphasize what they feel is most important. I will let Meta discuss hermeneutics, but throughout most of history there has been room to re-integrate received wisdom into new cultural and historical contexts. It is not only done in religion. <br /><br />As for silence of the Christian left and centrists, this is much like those who ask why normal Muslims aren't speaking out against the extremists. Meta does have a point that many just go to work directly solving problems as eschew politics and public debate, but even those who do try to get involved in the media don't get the same exposure as the Jerry Falwells and the Pat Robertsons. And of course there is the association of Christianity with the rhetoric of radical right, especially by the secular and non-Christian element of the political left, so bringing your faith into the debate can complicate things. <br /><br />That said, it would be nice if the non-fundies were better at getting their message out. In fact, Bishop Eugene Robinson is retiring in 2013 in part to be able to reach out worldwide to gay youth, and he was recently part of the "It Gets Better" project and has written numerous op-eds on social justice. There are folks like Jim Wallis and Sojourners magazine as well. But taking reasonable positions doesn't tend to make the news.tinythinkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17137637122776756669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-82708786016124803542010-11-09T05:14:47.826-08:002010-11-09T05:14:47.826-08:00That's really indicative of non thinking Loren...That's really indicative of non thinking Loren. Your responses are not thoughtful (no offense) they are like knee jerk reactions. Like you have a big chart "what to say if they say this" you consult the chart to see a canned pre given answer from atheist ideology.<br /><br />"if they support liberal politics say this" although it's not applicable but it's on the chart so you give it as an answer weather it applies or not.Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-11580671082927096652010-11-09T05:12:34.648-08:002010-11-09T05:12:34.648-08:00Loyal oppoent Loren says:
"Metacrock, althou...Loyal oppoent Loren says:<br /><br />"Metacrock, although there is certainly a Religious Left, it has been remarkably quiet in recent decades. Where's the loudly-expressed outrage against the Religious Right?"<br /><br /><b>Hi Loren. Yes, since the fall of Marxism all that Marxist based liberation theology in Latin America doesn't get the press it used to. But they are still there. They are still working for peace and freedom in Latin America.<br /><br />For the past couple of decades the trend among progressive Christians is to leave the states, to the third world and help people directly. scores of women have been doing that rather than hang around here and not be allowed to do they big stuff in the church.<br /><br />We Americans are insulated from anything that happens outside the country.<br /><br />There was a huge movement of helping the homeless in the early Bush years but the media stopped covering them as the mood of the country went conservative. That doesn't mean they stopped doing their thing.</b><br /><br /><br />"I also note that the Religious Left rewrites the Bible in its likeness as much as the Religious Right does."<br /><br /><b>That's because you have no training in textual criticism and you don't literature. you don't really understand how to read a text critically.<br /><br />It's not "re writing" it's "hermeneutics."</b><br /><br /><br />"On your rewrites of history, I note that the words "democracy" and "republic" did not come from the Bible. Pagan Greeks and Romans were the ones who invented those words. Supporters of democracy in early modern times were much inspired by their example. Consider what the US Senate was named after."<br /><br /><b>the other major movements of demoracy after the Greeks (which was before Christ--as in it could hardly be Christian since Christ hadn't come yet--were:<br /><br />(1) The Reformatino<br /><br />(2) America<br /><br />those are a lot more significant from our perspective than the Greeks. Although that really has nothing to do with anything. That's a quite childish point. That's like a "two points for us" mind of mentality.</b><br /><br />"There's hardly in religion in our nation's founding documents. The authors of the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the Federalist Papers didn't wave their Bibles very much in those documents. In fact, they made zero mention of the Bible there. So if the Bible was the inspiration for the US Constitution, why didn't our Founding Fathers give credit where credit was due?"<br /><br /><b>what does that have to do with anything? That's a totally irrelevant argument. Since most signers of the declaration of Independence were Christians and since Withersoon and Morris were the two major lecturers on the nature of democracy to the convention it's clear Christians has a to do wit the democratic nature of the country. Although I really don't see what that has to do with the issues.<br /><br />what possilbe relivance does that have. such a strange way to think. I write this deal explaining how I can be a Christian and support the Liberal Dems in modern politics and you come on and say "there's no mention of the Bible in the constituition.<br /><br />there are also no warm kittens on the moon. So what?</b>Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-77305532965982529722010-11-08T22:26:39.181-08:002010-11-08T22:26:39.181-08:00Metacrock, although there is certainly a Religious...Metacrock, although there is certainly a Religious Left, it has been remarkably quiet in recent decades. Where's the loudly-expressed outrage against the Religious Right?<br /><br />I also note that the Religious Left rewrites the Bible in its likeness as much as the Religious Right does.<br /><br />On your rewrites of history, I note that the words "democracy" and "republic" did not come from the Bible. Pagan Greeks and Romans were the ones who invented those words. Supporters of democracy in early modern times were much inspired by their example. Consider what the US Senate was named after.<br /><br />There's hardly in religion in our nation's founding documents. The authors of the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the Federalist Papers didn't wave their Bibles very much in those documents. In fact, they made zero mention of the Bible there. So if the Bible was the inspiration for the US Constitution, why didn't our Founding Fathers give credit where credit was due?Lorenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13984896453534621864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-75499602079161628052010-11-08T16:42:58.836-08:002010-11-08T16:42:58.836-08:00speaking of that Hermit. I'm working on a new ...speaking of that Hermit. I'm working on a new blog called "Need more shovels." Raw political facts and diatribes. you are invited to do guest editorials any time. Tiny also.Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-81460731442044790082010-11-08T13:24:10.771-08:002010-11-08T13:24:10.771-08:00"That's the first postiive praise you giv...<i>"That's the first postiive praise you given me that I remember."</i><br /><br />Then you should pay closer attention. My biggest beef with you has always been that you waste your considerable talents railing against a tiny minority within the atheist minority, despite the fact that most of us are probably closer to you philosophically and politically than the raving fundies.<br /><br />It's those fundies who are clearly a bigger threat to people who think like you do, not only politically but also in terms of defining religion and it's role in contemporary society. If you are really worried about "hate groups" there are much bigger, more appropriate targets out there...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-23080111348565231142010-11-08T07:51:23.502-08:002010-11-08T07:51:23.502-08:00Excellent article.
thanks. That's the first p...Excellent article.<br /><br /><b>thanks. That's the first postiive praise you given me that I remember. I must be coming up in the world.</b><br /><br /> I do swish progressive believers in America would do a better job of standing up to their fundamentalist brethren.<br /><br /><b>I don't know if thta's possible. I think you need to go back to a fundie chruch and try it see wehre it goes I tired that back in the Regan era, you saw how effective it was.<br /><br />I saw an article said a lot of progressive Christians just left the country. A lot of women who wanted to be ministers instead of hanging around not getting to be ministers they went to the third world and started working to feed people.</b><br /><br /><br /><br /> Perhaps there would be less of the mocking and ridiculing you complain about over on atheist watch if liberal Christians hadn't ceded so much authority to the fundies.<br /><br /><b>I doubt it. I can't see people like Darwins moron doing anything else.</b>Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-74946580530875225882010-11-08T07:48:14.039-08:002010-11-08T07:48:14.039-08:00Blogger tinythinker said...
Good, but probabl...Blogger tinythinker said...<br /><br /> Good, but probably ineffective.<br /><br /><b>apparently nothing is effective</b><br /><br /> If we assume based on your depictions that the people who most need to read this aren't interested in deeper thought or scholarship which contradicts their opinions, then such a "long" and annotated post would be like kryptonite to them.<br /><br /><br /><b>Yea but I don't know to write short ones/ that's for you to do I guess.</b>Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-48699228339988023522010-11-08T07:43:00.308-08:002010-11-08T07:43:00.308-08:00Excellent article. I do swish progressive believer...Excellent article. I do swish progressive believers in America would do a better job of standing up to their fundamentalist brethren. Perhaps there would be less of the mocking and ridiculing you complain about over on atheist watch if liberal Christians hadn't ceded so much authority to the fundies.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-22115874863571995782010-11-08T06:42:24.188-08:002010-11-08T06:42:24.188-08:00Good, but probably ineffective. If we assume based...Good, but probably ineffective. If we assume based on your depictions that the people who most need to read this aren't interested in deeper thought or scholarship which contradicts their opinions, then such a "long" and annotated post would be like kryptonite to them.tinythinkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17137637122776756669noreply@blogger.com