tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post1195363615611146842..comments2024-03-29T03:30:25.637-07:00Comments on Metacrock's Blog: Is Jesus Suffering the Mechinismn of Atonement?Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)http://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-77324692993451287652019-12-12T12:12:24.490-08:002019-12-12T12:12:24.490-08:00Here something of a different topic. I wanted to s...Here something of a different topic. I wanted to show you the ministry of another friend of mine:<br /><br />http://watchmansbagpipes.blogspot.com/<br /><br />What do you think of it?Jesse Albrechthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01349321905468957335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-28487527601860347602019-12-12T12:06:24.354-08:002019-12-12T12:06:24.354-08:00You make an astute observation when you mention bo...You make an astute observation when you mention bombastic! He even condescends to scholars who have knowledge of the biblical languages, etc. He slandered my website once.Jesse Albrechthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01349321905468957335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-87889936687644769912019-12-12T10:14:05.728-08:002019-12-12T10:14:05.728-08:00I don't think the idea of Jesus becoming a cur...I don't think the idea of Jesus becoming a curse is a major point in Paul or in Protestant theology.These is a passage that says "cursed is anyone who hangs on a tree," crucifixion itself was the curse. The idea of sin = death is the curse,Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-87590513418415659422019-12-12T10:10:23.790-08:002019-12-12T10:10:23.790-08:00That guy is a real ideologue I find that a real tu...That guy is a real ideologue I find that a real turn off. His view of protestant theology is ignorant, he bombastically takes one type and uses that to represent all of Protestantism.Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-21337629796274106682019-12-11T14:21:31.088-08:002019-12-11T14:21:31.088-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Jesse Albrechthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01349321905468957335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-50430748053043688352013-04-11T03:45:15.921-07:002013-04-11T03:45:15.921-07:00Kristen: "It's more than just God sufferi...Kristen: "It's more than just God suffering with us to show us how much God identifies with/cares for us. There is an actual spiritual healing that takes place; a restoration of our spirits to wholeness. That is what is meant by Christ's blood washing away our stains."<br /><br /><b>Yes and there's also our solidarity with God, which is our acceptance of his with us signified by repentance and commitment. That dual solidarity creates the grounds upon which forgiveness takes place.</b>Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-56632462003489845892013-04-11T03:43:06.179-07:002013-04-11T03:43:06.179-07:00I reject a couple of your premises. I reject all f...I reject a couple of your premises. I reject all forms of determinism.I don't accept the idea that God is the author of our wrong choices merely because to change our minds would be to change God's foreknowledge. Nor do I accept the idea that changing our minds would do that.<br /><br />We can change our minds that doesn't mean we have infinite mind changes. Since God's perspective is timeless he knows all our mind changes in advance.<br /><br />The atonement is participatory not protionary. In other words, it's not turning away God's wrath but neither is it compensatory. It's solidarity (participatory) between God and human. God becomes human and dies like us in order to participate in our fate and thus establish his solidarity with us.Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-28958572244535029902013-04-10T19:35:36.291-07:002013-04-10T19:35:36.291-07:00You can find the complete answers to atonement in ...You can find the complete answers to atonement in a kindle book called Renegade Gospel The Jesus Manifold by Jamey Massengale.<br />1. God is the creator completely soveriegn<br />2 My separation from God is due to my knowledge of good and evil because i use it to judge god i.e. why do the innocent suffer etc. is an accusation in interrogative format.<br />3 If God is omniscient I cant do other than what God KNEW i would do before He created me and He created me as He did; therefore God is responsible for my sin<br />4 If God is responsible for my sin then God should die for my sin<br />5 In Jesus God did die for my sin or Jesus as god died for all sin ( which is by the way the ultimate statement of soveriegnty, where God says in essence “I do it all” cause effect and resolution.)<br />6 However Jesus the man did not sin nor was He under original sin so He didn’t deserve to die, but being God as man, now by the rule of equity, all men are equal to God, syllogism: Jesus is a man and all men are human therefore Jesus is human and Jesus is God therefore all men are in Jesus equal to God in their HUMAN/GOD rights.<br />7 Therefore since only God as the “potter” had the rights of life, liberty, and property; and since Jesus transfers to all humans like Himself those rights, we don’t need a law saying by fiat “thou shalt not kill”, because all men now have the right to life; I know I violate that right if I kill a man. Thereby the law is fulfilled in right-eousness, or “the having of the rights of God”.<br />That’s it in a nutshell and it explains a lot of ambiguous statements Paul makes. I haven’t quoted much scripture for brevity’s sake but I find the Jesus manifold completely supported from genesis to revelation. It affirms the homoousion, it satisfies the complete taxonomy of sin(ontologic, deontic, and relational), and it satisfies all of Abelard’s criteria: 1. it’s logical 2. It’s not arbitrary if God is omniscient, therefore actions are predestined, and love demand’s it to satisfy the human cry of injustice. 3 It’s intelligible being stated capable of syllogistic treatment in plain unambiguous language. The implications to a multiverse for an omniscient God require He know everything in all possible universes, this single incarnation would then only be required in this one to satisfy it’s precise constraints, as it exists within the multiplicity of universes in God’s consciousness.<br />I apologize if the first part is ambiguous as to the idea of multiverse. Only in science fiction and thought experiment is a multiverse with divergent timelines considered. This universe has the timline it does because of physical constraints that cannot be changed if human life is to exist as it does(see Anthropic principle). There are approximately 20 such constraints that are so precise the universe would cease to exist as it does if they varied even one plank measure. Those multiverses actually possible would be defined by changes in those constants. Therefore there can be no other universe which would value the atonement as this one does(anthropically); however these constants do not forbid interactions at the quantum level, and may derive their stability from these interactions. In that case the incarnation in this universe has it’s meaning only in this universe but would have implications to all other possible universes. Renegade Gospelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04579823675738505387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-63791548052087357092011-03-13T22:58:08.660-07:002011-03-13T22:58:08.660-07:00I agree with the participatory model--so long as i...I agree with the participatory model--so long as it includes the idea of the atonement as a cleansing/healing act.<br /><br />I believe that when we think and act in selfishness that harms ourselves, the creation and others, it damages or soils our souls. The Atonement is the goodness of God opened up to cleanse, heal and restore our souls while the damage and uncleanness are taken into God's own unlimited life and purity and thus overcome and eliminated. <br /><br />It's more than just God suffering with us to show us how much God identifies with/cares for us. There is an actual spiritual healing that takes place; a restoration of our spirits to wholeness. That is what is meant by Christ's blood washing away our stains.Kristenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08252374623355509404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-56368792309367855342011-03-11T20:59:12.635-08:002011-03-11T20:59:12.635-08:00I followed up a bit on what you posted here Meta a...I followed up a bit on what you posted here Meta and tied it in with what I had been writing recently in my assessment of what are generally considered the basics of Christianity: <br /><br /><a href="http://peacefulturmoil.blogspot.com/2011/03/atonement-and-appeasement-models-in.html" rel="nofollow">http://peacefulturmoil.blogspot.com/2011/03/atonement-and-appeasement-models-in.html</a>tinythinkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17137637122776756669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-87564700358326269422011-03-11T08:42:35.001-08:002011-03-11T08:42:35.001-08:00The idea that God had to be bought off with a bloo...The idea that God had to be bought off with a bloody human sacrifice is indeed disturbing, and unnecessary for Christians to believe.<br /><br />A simpler understanding is that God and Humanity needed to be united in a new way that would empower humanity to make a better world while helping individuals to avoid sin. In this view Christ's mission is to rise again from the dead, showing humanity, as He did in the Transfiguration, the glory of their destiny in an eternal glorified body.<br /><br />This mission had to be accomplished in the context of human reality, full of cruelty and injustice as well as kindness, forgiveness and love of neighbor. To fully enter into humanity Christ had suffer all that humanity has suffered due to sin. Hence the cruelty of his death.<br /><br />God did not demand a bloody human sacrifice. Christ voluntarily took on humanity's suffering to show that the glory of humanity's destiny is open to all, no matter how much they suffer. Christ's suffering also shows humanity that it must work to prevent cruelty, injustice and hatred of others.<br /><br />Christ came to rise from the dead and show humanity that this too is its destiny. Rising from the dead would have been sufficient for this mission to be accomplished. Christ's suffering was not necessary but Christ chose to be one with humanity in all its awful suffering, making Him approachable to all.CitizenWhyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08027290923603883192noreply@blogger.com