tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post7458715538757661378..comments2024-03-28T15:31:02.860-07:00Comments on Metacrock's Blog: The Empirical study of Mystical Experience part 2Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)http://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-32252118810762787392017-10-13T11:11:36.205-07:002017-10-13T11:11:36.205-07:007th Stooge said...
my mystical experience was anth...7th Stooge said...<br />my mystical experience was anthropocentric, it about the Christian God. the M scale evidence shows that the eeriness are alike and the assumptions are reflected through the culture one uses to understand.l<br /><br />You seem to be saying two contradictory things. If by "eeriness" you meant "experiences," how could they be alike if the assumptions are reflected through the culture one uses to understand it?<br /><br /><b>It should say Christ-0-centric, the auto correct screwed it up, the experiences can be alike and yet reflected through culture because there is a reality behind it that is there for all. but apprehendison of it is colored by culture yet the relakty comes through,</b>Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-90925440167307268952017-10-13T11:01:57.315-07:002017-10-13T11:01:57.315-07:00my mystical experience was anthropocentric, it abo...<i>my mystical experience was anthropocentric, it about the Christian God. the M scale evidence shows that the eeriness are alike and the assumptions are reflected through the culture one uses to understand.l</i><br /><br />You seem to be saying two contradictory things. If by "eeriness" you meant "experiences," how could they be alike if the assumptions are reflected through the culture one uses to understand it?7th Stoogehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11527850994226457613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-22625466164873675042017-10-12T22:04:00.421-07:002017-10-12T22:04:00.421-07:00mile you say "Joe, I was wondering if "i...mile you say "Joe, I was wondering if "inducing mystical experiences" in such a way as to make people think they were "spontaneous" and then not telling them that for a long time would be ethical?" <b>thee is no proof anyone has induced a mystical experience,</b>Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-29449286198924172902017-10-12T21:58:20.174-07:002017-10-12T21:58:20.174-07:00My point wasn't about medium vs. message. I wa...My point wasn't about medium vs. message. I was wondering just what constitutes the 'message.' Does it depend to some extent on the attunement of the experiencer, what the experiencer is seeking and why? If a non-believer has a depth or mystical experience, has he or she experienced God even if the experience isn't interpreted that way?<br /><br /><b>my mystical experience was anthropocentric, it about the Christian God. the M scale evidence shows that the eeriness are alike and the assumptions are reflected through the culture one uses to understand.l</b>Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-44376742514435045242017-10-12T21:55:50.893-07:002017-10-12T21:55:50.893-07:00the idea that people have experiences they can;t e...the idea that people have experiences they can;t exapin so they just go running to the nearest major religion to explain it is pretty silly. Most people don't do that unless the experience gives a connection, Many people with those experiences find that it is about God.<br /><br />Moreover,about half of those who have ME are children and studies show christian are not hung up on doctrine. People will change traditions due to the content of the experience, they dont jut seek the most conservative faith around just because they cant explain something, Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-33171803460988812032017-10-12T15:41:29.112-07:002017-10-12T15:41:29.112-07:00Joe, I was wondering if "inducing mystical ex...Joe, I was wondering if "inducing mystical experiences" in such a way as to make people think they were "spontaneous" and then not telling them that for a long time would be ethical? <br /><br />Also, I THINK that since you don't report "more religion" (in the formal sense) as a result of your studies, that would go against the theory I just put forward? If people were just plugging into religious trad 's to make sense of an unexplained experience, we'd expect "more religious" to be up high on the scale for longer term results? <br /><br />N'est ce pas? <br /><br />;-)Mike Gerowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14630695728013930638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-31067844109240901102017-10-12T14:09:47.301-07:002017-10-12T14:09:47.301-07:00serotonin is just the medium, it enables the messa...serotonin is just the medium, it enables the message, Gods presence, to get through. If God want to speak to you audibly he has to use air to carry vibrations and he has to give you a cognate array that can pick up vibration and transliterate into langue, so then do you conclude that you don't need a speaker just a set of ears?<br /><br />My point wasn't about medium vs. message. I was wondering just what constitutes the 'message.' Does it depend to some extent on the attunement of the experiencer, what the experiencer is seeking and why? If a non-believer has a depth or mystical experience, has he or she experienced God even if the experience isn't interpreted that way?7th Stoogehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11527850994226457613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-28299918550352023002017-10-12T13:53:52.046-07:002017-10-12T13:53:52.046-07:00Mike Gerow said...
There's even a question whe...Mike Gerow said...<br />There's even a question whether purely uninduced mystical experiences are experiences of "God" ... it's entirely plausible they're just "in our heads" - i.e. brain-chemistry effects - and the positive results come from the well-known human penchants for "storytelling" and "meaning-making", i.e.<br /><br /><b>no it's not. As with the analogy of hearing you still need a speaker.</b><br /><br /><br /> finding some explanation for every event (in this case, in our various forms of "religious" beliefs)even if there really isn't one (or not such a profound one) anywhere outside our own brains.....<br /><br /><b>what has been demonstrated not profound here? Before you reject my argument go read 7 and 8 in Trace.</b><br /><br />...then, according to this theory, under experimental circumstances, induced experiences then might not have the same long term effects since an alternative "explanation" already exists.<br /><br /><b>If seraton in is your altqer ativeit isses themajr<br /><br />(1) it's explained the receptor arguemwnt<br /><br />(2) It doesn;t explai the phenomena<br /><br />(3)it looses in the tie breakers (some of the tie breakers in the paper I just posted and more in the book)</b><br /><br />Do you have that one covered,Joe? ;-)<br /><br /><b>what I said</b><br /><br />Would there need to be long term double-blinded studies to belay that critique? <br /><br /><b>they've been done</b><br /><br />....would such studies be unethical?<br /><br /><b>how so?</b>Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-58671521341107409142017-10-12T13:45:14.943-07:002017-10-12T13:45:14.943-07:007th Stooge said...
So mystical experience, whether...7th Stooge said...<br />So mystical experience, whether from mushrooms, fasting or whatever, can have long-lasting positive effects. I think even someone like Sam Harris could agree? The question is whether or not these experiences are experiences of God.<br /><br /><b>serotonin is just the medium, it enables the message,<br /> Gods presence, to get through. If God want to speak to you audibly he has to use air to carry vibrations and he has to give you a cognate array that can pick up vibration and transliterate into langue, so then do you conclude that you don't need a speaker just a set of ears?</b>Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-51742165041856874042017-10-12T12:00:29.891-07:002017-10-12T12:00:29.891-07:00There's even a question whether purely uninduc...There's even a question whether purely uninduced mystical experiences are experiences of "God" ... it's entirely plausible they're just "in our heads" - i.e. brain-chemistry effects - and the positive results come from the well-known human penchants for "storytelling" and "meaning-making", i.e. finding some explanation for every event (in this case, in our various forms of "religious" beliefs)even if there really isn't one (or not such a profound one) anywhere outside our own brains.....<br /><br />...then, according to this theory, under experimental circumstances, induced experiences then might not have the same long term effects since an alternative "explanation" already exists.<br /><br />Do you have that one covered,Joe? ;-)<br /><br />Would there need to be long term double-blinded studies to belay that critique? <br /><br />....would such studies be unethical? Mike Gerowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14630695728013930638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-12816251762667220812017-10-12T11:33:43.642-07:002017-10-12T11:33:43.642-07:00So mystical experience, whether from mushrooms, fa...So mystical experience, whether from mushrooms, fasting or whatever, can have long-lasting positive effects. I think even someone like Sam Harris could agree? The question is whether or not these experiences are experiences of God. 7th Stoogehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11527850994226457613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-55009300366443788692017-10-12T11:30:39.514-07:002017-10-12T11:30:39.514-07:00TestingTesting7th Stoogehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11527850994226457613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-78282392749555338572017-10-12T11:16:08.955-07:002017-10-12T11:16:08.955-07:00the article says: "he root of the change seem...the article says: "he root of the change seems to be not the drug itself, MacLean told LiveScience, but the mystical experiences that psilocybin often triggers. These profound, transcendent feelings feel no less real to people for being chemically induced, she said. [How Do Hallucinogens Work?]<br /><br />"Many years later, people are saying it was one of the most profound experiences of their life," MacLean said. "If you think about it in that context, it's not that surprising that it might be permanent.""<br /><br /><b>I answer that argument in next to the last chapter of the book. the argument Dr. Hood akes,<br /> backed by on of t he people in the johns hopkins study is that the chemicals opens receptors that allows one to experience God. Newberg makes a similar argument,that may sound funny but the people in the good Friday study all had mystical experiences in their youths, So the chemicals were just wakng up what they reejbered,</b>Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-47023318958636994472017-10-12T11:03:54.473-07:002017-10-12T11:03:54.473-07:00first of all what kind of effects? what are the do...first of all what kind of effects? what are the down sides? There is no down side to mystical experience.I didn't argue that this is the only thing that is good, there are other good things.Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-45109156317550817312017-10-12T05:36:03.262-07:002017-10-12T05:36:03.262-07:00Regarding the transformative effects:
What do you ...Regarding the transformative effects:<br />What do you make of the research that appears to show long term positive effects from ingesting certain kinds of hallucinogenic substances?<br /><br />https://www.livescience.com/16287-mushrooms-alter-personality-long-term.htmlEric Sotnakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06162425851889399481noreply@blogger.com