tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post678386232658685423..comments2024-03-29T07:57:16.659-07:00Comments on Metacrock's Blog: Reflection on Statement by IngersollJoseph Hinman (Metacrock)http://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-38235113063851337692010-02-01T07:44:21.896-08:002010-02-01T07:44:21.896-08:00He was speaking about hisexperience of religion.
...He was speaking about hisexperience of religion.<br /><br /><b>that's your reading</b><br /><br />I'll ask again; what in that list of things he says he is free from would you hang on to?<br /><br /><b>I don't know because I haven't experienced any of those things.<br /><br />as Intimated (did you actually my comments?) I thought about religion like he does when I was a child. It's a child's view. His view of religion is a child's view. I wouldn't hang on to any but then I believe religion itself causes any of that. the only that that's remotely close is the ethic of service, but he understands that as someone who is terrified of serving so he makes it out to be abject slavery instead of service.<br /><br />As Kristen points out there are groups that think like that, but that's becuase they are working within the ruling keeping child's mentality. That's not endemic to all religion.</b>Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-22948923577718594162010-02-01T07:40:50.632-08:002010-02-01T07:40:50.632-08:00Metacrock, I thought your description of your free...Metacrock, I thought your description of your freedom in Christ was absolutely beautiful. I'm deeply enmeshed right now in No Longer Quivering and the battle against fundamentalist legalism, and sometimes the necessity of examinging that narrow view of a horrid, small-minded little dictator god gets to me. It's good to read your words and remember what faith really is all about.<br /><br /><b>It's a good work you're doing. More power to ya.</b><br /><br />I don't blame Ingersoll for rejecting what he thought religion and God were. If that's all I thought they were, I'd reject them too.<br /><br /><b>Me too ;-)</b>Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-58774060819578721062010-01-31T22:52:18.515-08:002010-01-31T22:52:18.515-08:00Metacrock, I thought your description of your free...Metacrock, I thought your description of your freedom in Christ was absolutely beautiful. I'm deeply enmeshed right now in No Longer Quivering and the battle against fundamentalist legalism, and sometimes the necessity of examinging that narrow view of a horrid, small-minded little dictator god gets to me. It's good to read your words and remember what faith really is all about.<br /><br />I don't blame Ingersoll for rejecting what he thought religion and God were. If that's all I thought they were, I'd reject them too.Kristenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08252374623355509404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-64870602015625542812010-01-31T21:06:28.949-08:002010-01-31T21:06:28.949-08:00He was speaking about hisexperience of religion.
...He was speaking about <i>his</i>experience of religion.<br /><br />I'll ask again; what in that list of things he says he is free from would you hang on to?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-67072352468571434942010-01-31T15:23:18.249-08:002010-01-31T15:23:18.249-08:00But don't you yourself reject that kind of rig...But don't you yourself reject that kind of rigid religious tradition? What in Ingersoll's list of things he has been set free from would you hang on to?<br /><br /><b>do you still beat your wife Hermit? Religion dosn't do that. that's making assukmpitions about religion that are like the qusiton about beating your wife, loaded and unfiar. Religion doesn't do that.<br /><br />some particular groups do but religious itself does not. it not the result of RE.<br /><br />He ws speaking as though this is the universal all encompassing experience of all religious people.</b>Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-30551827211281712402010-01-31T14:10:20.393-08:002010-01-31T14:10:20.393-08:00But don't you yourself reject that kind of rig...But don't you yourself reject that kind of rigid religious tradition? What in Ingersoll's list of things he has been set free from would you hang on to?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-87159547131808143272010-01-31T12:36:58.360-08:002010-01-31T12:36:58.360-08:00he did not make any such distinction and you know ...he did not make any such distinction and you know it. you are reading that in.Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-32369358344187350542010-01-31T09:12:48.962-08:002010-01-31T09:12:48.962-08:00"he was trying to say that all religious expe...<i>"he was trying to say that all religious experience is making one into a slave who can't think."</i><br /><br />No, he's rejecting the kind of religious tradition that makes the symbolic more important than the reality; the kind that confuses those cultural contexts for the greater truth.<br /><br /><i>"Jesus makes you free."</i><br /><br />No, Jesus can be a useful metaphor for the liberative experience...be careful not to reify the metaphor.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-69164108773072796952010-01-31T08:36:13.616-08:002010-01-31T08:36:13.616-08:00"I was not aware that you had a mystical expe..."I was not aware that you had a mystical experience. maybe you told me that once and I forgot. If so I apologize. But be honest now, did you have a mystical experience about Christ that led to being born again, or did you just go to chruch?"<br /><br />You know I think it says something about our conversations that you can't remember me opening up about my most profound, personal experiences<br /><br /><b>do I know you? Have you posted on this blog before?</b><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> but you an cling to some imagined slight of mine over on CARM and use it to smear me with accusations of "backstabbing." Makes one wonder if you're really interested in this conversation...?<br /><br /><br /><b>all I know is everyone on the board was ragging on me and saying I am terrible person you said nothing to counter that and you said something to the effect that they were right.</b><br /><br />"IF you had one in connection with atheism that does not necessarily prove atheism because it really proves the truth is beyond our cultural constructs but we call by names that associate with those constructs."<br /><br />I've had profound experiences in both contexts; I have come to understand what I once believed was the "Holy Spirit" was in fact something even more profound.<br /><br /><br /><b>it is not possible to have soemthing more profound than the Holy Spirit. There is nothing greater than that which nothing greater than can be conceived.</b><br /><br />Yes that glimpse of the infinite that you cal "religious experience" defies our attempt to describe it, it is far beyond cultural constructs. That's why I reject talk of Gods and "Holy Spirits" and other cultural constructs; they limit the experience, jam it into a pigeonhole, manipulate and confuse and obscure the experience itself.<br /><br /><b>that's true but there's no other way to talk about it but by loading i into culture. You are doing that, you just use different constructs.</b><br /><br /><br />Yo do this yourself when you ask me if I "spoke in tongues."<br /><br />Really Joe? You're prepared to judge the authenticity of my personal experience on the basis of that kind of Pentecostal born again elitism? I thought you understood things better than that!<br /><br /><b>NO I was being facetious. I don't use tounges as a bench mark for salvation or anything like that. But I still don't see any evidence that you had any sort of experince in connection with your participation in religion. I see that you had it as connected with getting out of religion. So it' not like you are saying that you got it and it wasn't good enough then then you got a better one with atheism. you got out of an institution and then found something more profound not connected with an institution. that is not any kind of indictment to religious experience. <br /><br />I don't care what label you go by what you experienced is what I call "God" you don't choose to call it that that's your privilege. I do.</b><br /><br /><br /><br />It seems to me that you can't see the depth of Ingersoll's experience as he expresses precisely because you are too attached to these cultural constructs.<br /><br /><br /><b>he was trying to say that all religious experience is making one into a slave who can't think. that's his experience not mine.<br /><br />I found the exact opposite of what he did. Jesus makes you free.</b>Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-24387603653407628002010-01-31T07:23:37.263-08:002010-01-31T07:23:37.263-08:00"I was not aware that you had a mystical expe...<i>"I was not aware that you had a mystical experience. maybe you told me that once and I forgot. If so I apologize. But be honest now, did you have a mystical experience about Christ that led to being born again, or did you just go to chruch?"</i><br /><br />You know I think it says something about our conversations that you can't remember me opening up about my most profound, personal experiences but you an cling to some imagined slight of mine over on CARM and use it to smear me with accusations of "backstabbing." Makes one wonder if you're really interested in this conversation...?<br /><br /><i>"IF you had one in connection with atheism that does not necessarily prove atheism because it really proves the truth is beyond our cultural constructs but we call by names that associate with those constructs."</i><br /><br />I've had profound experiences in both contexts; I have come to understand what I once believed was the "Holy Spirit" was in fact something even more profound.<br /><br />Yes that glimpse of the infinite that you cal "religious experience" defies our attempt to describe it, it is far beyond cultural constructs. That's why I reject talk of Gods and "Holy Spirits" and other cultural constructs; they limit the experience, jam it into a pigeonhole, manipulate and confuse and obscure the experience itself.<br /><br /><br />Yo do this yourself when you ask me if I "spoke in tongues." <br /><br />Really Joe? You're prepared to judge the authenticity of my personal experience on the basis of that kind of Pentecostal born again elitism? I thought you understood things better than that!<br /><br />It seems to me that you can't see the depth of Ingersoll's experience as he expresses precisely because you are too attached to these cultural constructs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-51238845577850766502010-01-30T15:11:54.039-08:002010-01-30T15:11:54.039-08:00"the M scales shows that even atheists who ha..."the M scales shows that even atheists who have mystical experince and define it atheististically still related to it in the exactly the same way as religious mystics. So they are both really doing the same thing but defining it differently."<br /><br />well, I guess that's what I'm saying, and it seems to me that's what Ingersoll is saying as well. <br /><br /><b>where? where did he say anyting even remotely similar?</b><br /><br /><br />You seem to want to dismiss or belittle any "peak" experience that isn't couched in in religious (preferably Christian)terms.<br /><br /><b>how can I be doing that when I'm the one that pointed out the alternative?</b>Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-44601770351412557982010-01-30T11:53:39.385-08:002010-01-30T11:53:39.385-08:00"the M scales shows that even atheists who ha...<i>"the M scales shows that even atheists who have mystical experince and define it atheististically still related to it in the exactly the same way as religious mystics. So they are both really doing the same thing but defining it differently."</i><br />well, I guess that's what I'm saying, and it seems to me that's what Ingersoll is saying as well. You seem to want to dismiss or belittle any "peak" experience that isn't couched in in religious (preferably Christian)terms.<br /><br />And yes, we have had this conversation before. I do wish you'd pay attention...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-47361831108740317142010-01-30T07:48:17.473-08:002010-01-30T07:48:17.473-08:00Andre Comte de Sponville describes the kind of thi...Andre Comte de Sponville describes the kind of thing I'm talking about (better than Ingersoll does) in his <a href="http://books.google.ca/books?id=k98AlkT_ZysC&pg=PA135&vq=%22that+is+to+say,+that+doubts,+affirms,+denies,+that+knows+a+few+things,+that+is+ignorant+of+many,+that+wills,%22&source=gbs_quotes_r&cad=4#v=onepage&q=%22that%20is%20to%20say%2C%20that%20doubts%2C%20affirms%2C%20denies%2C%20that%20knows%20a%20few%20things%2C%20that%20is%20ignorant%20of%20many%2C%20that%20wills%2C%22&f=false" rel="nofollow">"Little Book of Atheist Spirituality".</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-90271090854626848942010-01-30T07:30:58.771-08:002010-01-30T07:30:58.771-08:00"I've had both and you have not."
Y..."I've had both and you have not."<br /><br />Yes I have, actually...<br /><br /><b>O I didn't realize that. I'd like to hear more about that. When did you start speaking tongues?</b><br /><br />"there is no such data showing people who gave up religion and did not have RE scoring sper much higher on self actualization scales."<br /><br />Has anyone actually asked that question though? <br /><br /><b>OF cousre. the basic data comparing experiencers to non experiencers is doing that a prori. what else would it mean to compare the two?</b><br /><br /><br />Letting go of my faith was certainly a self actualizing process. It was profoundly liberating, deeply transforming; everything you describe. But one isn't likely to call it a "religious" experience.<br /><br /><br /><b>I doubt that. I think you are just using terms you don't understand. What you really mean is it made you feel better. Not really the same thing.<br /><br />On the other hand you could be confusing chruch attentions for real spiritual experience in which case actually stopping mere chruch attendance without spiritual experience might be more transfomfroamtive if stopping it invovled actual inner life.<br /><br />Of course I have to recognize the possibility that you really did have the kinds of experiences I'm talking about and found giving them up for nothing better, but I can't accept that. Knowing what I know that would be like expecting me to accept going from literacy to illiteracy to be wonderful and positive and great.<br /><br />Just doesn't make sense. It would be like saying going from life having meaning purpose and deep sense of the universe is based upon love and loves me and everything is good to feeling that there is no truth no purpose no meaning and no love and that would be wonderful and great change your life a millions times better, that just does not make sense. I have to consider that you are misusing the terms.</b><br /><br />It seems to me you're just arbitrarily dismissing the experiences of those of us who don't see our experience in religious terms.<br /><br /><b>that statement implies that you know that there's an experience deeper than the terminology being used. So I acknowledge that possibility myself that's why I say things like "God is beyond our understanding" and "religious language is analogical. WE are also telling each other "my anecdotal experience is better than your anecdotal experience.<br /><br />What we need to do is get back to the data, the data shows that those who have religious experience _("peak experience") are more self actualized then those who do not. among the several possibilities is the idea that you did not experience a true mystical state and you were not born again and you merely traded an institutional affiliation for a deeper insight but one that is still couched in the secular rhetoric that prefer and yet refers to soemthing beyond mere unbelief.</b><br /><br /><br /><br /> I'm excluded from your religious studies because I don't call what I went through a "religious" experience, but that doesn't mean it wasn't as real and profound and transformative for me as your religious experience was for you.<br /><br /><br /><b>NO false assertion. (1) the M scales shows that even atheists who have mystical experince and define it atheististically still related to it in the exactly the same way as religious mystics. So they are both really doing the same thing but defining it differently.<br /><br />(2) I was not aware that you had a mystical experience. maybe you told me that once and I forgot. If so I apologize. But be honest now, did you have a mystical experience about Christ that led to being born again, or did you just go to chruch?<br /><br />IF you had one in connection with atheism that does not necessarily prove atheism because it really proves the truth is beyond our cultural constructs but we call by names that associate with those constructs.</b>Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-6592022408719865052010-01-29T13:12:18.172-08:002010-01-29T13:12:18.172-08:00"I've had both and you have not."
Y...<i>"I've had both and you have not."</i><br /><br />Yes I have, actually...<br /><br /><i>"there is no such data showing people who gave up religion and did not have RE scoring sper much higher on self actualization scales."</i><br /><br />Has anyone actually asked that question though? Letting go of my faith was certainly a self actualizing process. It was profoundly liberating, deeply transforming; everything you describe. But one isn't likely to call it a "religious" experience.<br /><br />It seems to me you're just arbitrarily dismissing the experiences of those of us who don't see our experience in religious terms. I'm excluded from your religious studies because I don't call what I went through a "religious" experience, but that doesn't mean it wasn't as real and profound and transformative for me as your religious experience was for you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-84922950707694884982010-01-29T09:14:56.760-08:002010-01-29T09:14:56.760-08:00Hermit there is no M scale for atheism. The deal w...Hermit there is no M scale for atheism. The deal with the RE studies is that they do measure the extent to which people find trnasformative experience and the extent to which that is mystical.<br /><br />there are studies that compere scores of high M scalers on scores of self actualization. No data shows the non experiencers outscoring the experiences.<br /><br />If finding atheism was this big liberating thing then we should expect to find a large percentage of those who do not have RE having a large bit of transformation. we do not find this!<br /><br /><b>there is no such data showing people who gave up religion and did not have RE scoring sper much higher on self actualization scales.</b>Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-54110791259326040202010-01-29T09:11:06.056-08:002010-01-29T09:11:06.056-08:00Why do you find it so hard to believe that letting...Why do you find it so hard to believe that letting go of faith could be as liberating for someone like me as finding it was for you? Do you really think we all have to be like you to be free and whole?<br /><br /><b>I've had both and you have not. I was an atheist. the only thing becoming an atheist can ever be is relief from a bad group.It can't ever what finding the reality of god is becuase there's no reality of no God to find.<br /><br />if if there is no God becoming an atheist is still not finding some sense of mystical union with a state of no god.<br /><br />I've had both I know, finding God is totally different and much better things.</b>Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-81931992597083698482010-01-29T09:08:17.630-08:002010-01-29T09:08:17.630-08:00Mike Ingersoll is assuming what I said, or rather ...Mike Ingersoll is assuming what I said, or rather I'm reacting to what he said.Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-65241021231439150792010-01-28T13:24:19.230-08:002010-01-28T13:24:19.230-08:00"Of course the truth is atheists who were for...<i>"Of course the truth is atheists who were formerly associated with religious institutions imagine that everyone there was as board as they were. They imagine that everyone involved in belief is as afraid as they were."</i><br /><br />Perhaps some atheists, but most of the ones I know were far from bored or fearful, they were quit involved and many experienced manifestations of what they thought was God.<br /><br /><i>"neither you nor he is willing to accept the world as it is. I have experienced God, I know he's real no way I doubt that because I experienced it I know the reality. you refuse to accept that reality becuase you can't accept a will greater than your own."</i><br /><br />Joe, they are accepting the world as they see it, as are you, none of us, in our imperfection can truly see the world as it is. It's impossible to leave all our baggage behind and be truly objective.<br /><br />You don't know the reasons we can't accept what you believe, unless we tell you.<br /><br />To say we believe this way because we can't accept a will greater than our own is ludicrous, because a will greater than our own, manifest to us, would be undeniable.Mike aka MonolithTMAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08385705390882035829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-14526488510268609832010-01-28T09:43:57.230-08:002010-01-28T09:43:57.230-08:00Why do you find it so hard to believe that letting...Why do you find it so hard to believe that letting go of faith could be as liberating for someone like me as finding it was for you? Do you really think we all have to be like you to be free and whole?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-44243079117109008762010-01-28T07:35:19.692-08:002010-01-28T07:35:19.692-08:00I am completely open to accepting the world as I p...I am completely open to accepting the world as I perceive it."<br /><br />But not at all open to the idea that someone else's experience might be just as valid as yours...<br /><br /><b>who is? certainly not you. Why should we accept the world of the perceptions of others? We can be open to the possibility but why should we accept the experiences of others as authority? you are certainly not willing to accept mine.</b><br /><br />It seems to me that finding the courage to face the world as it is, instead of as we wish it were, is what Ingersoll is talking about. For a change you're actually reading LESS into what someone says...;-)<br /><br /><b>but neither you nor he is willing to accept the world as it is. I have experienced God, I know he's real no way I doubt that because I experienced it I know the reality. you refuse to accept that reality becuase you can't accept a will greater than your own.<br /><br />you are the one who refuses reality in favor of what you wish was true; that your will be supreme.</b>Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-34711672148934482452010-01-27T20:41:21.982-08:002010-01-27T20:41:21.982-08:00'I am completely open to accepting the world a...<i>'I am completely open to accepting the world as I perceive it."</i><br /><br />But not at all open to the idea that someone else's experience might be just as valid as yours...<br /><br />It seems to me that finding the courage to face the world as it is, instead of as we wish it were, is what Ingersoll is talking about. For a change you're actually reading LESS into what someone says...;-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-54376830277767780402010-01-27T17:23:09.153-08:002010-01-27T17:23:09.153-08:00I am completely open to accepting the world as I p...I am completely open to accepting the world as I perceive it.<br /><br />HIs discretion is a hell of a lot more superscribed than just being closed minded.Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-7120771775502693972010-01-27T13:47:31.182-08:002010-01-27T13:47:31.182-08:00I think you do a disservice to Ingersoll; he's...I think you do a disservice to Ingersoll; he's not just taking about the freedom from the kind of primitive religion you're describing; he's describing an intellectual and spiritual freedom that allows one to be completely open to and accepting of the world as he perceives it.<br /><br />It's a good feeling...;-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com