tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post635548090895450200..comments2024-03-29T01:14:19.030-07:00Comments on Metacrock's Blog: Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)http://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comBlogger3125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-20473385549893103542017-01-01T02:15:34.561-08:002017-01-01T02:15:34.561-08:00I would call what you are talking about "magi...I would call what you are talking about "magic". Magic is a subset of superstition, but it is not all of what I would call superstition.<br /><br />Catholicism was (and still is,though not as much) full of "saints" performing miraculous cures; to be named a saint means that a certain number of miracles have to happen because someone prayed for the saint's intercession with God. (I know you know all this, I'm just working up to a point.) This is not someone finding God's love and creative wisdom in their life, this is just "say enough prayers to the Virgin Mary and maybe you won't be sick any more". I don't see how performing ritual prayers and having a "miracle" happen, is any different than performing a magic ritual that may or may not placate the deity enough to get want you want.. (though the Church only encouraged certain kinds of outcomes, not praying to get rich, etc.)<br /><br />I grew up with St. Christopher medals hanging up on the rear view mirror (every Catholic family had this, to protect against accidents), and ridiculous stories of miracles for every saint. There was a store at the Franciscan Monastery in Washington that had holy cards and medals for hundreds of saints. This was no different than the amulets you can buy in Shinto shrines in Japan, to protect against harm to your family or against auto accidents, etc. (The Japanese de-cluttering guru Marie Kondo points out that you should return amulets to a shrine after a year, as they are only good that long.)<br /><br />I can see miracles of say, God's acts of grace in our personal lives, but not supernatural cures etc. <br /><br />What is wrong with using enlightenment ideas to criticize traditional miracles? It's called the Enlightenment for a reason! :) There are people who make a lot out of the influence of Lucretius' "On the nature of things" as an influence on the Enlightenment: his book was preserved by the Church because of his criticism of the superstition of Roman religion.<br /><br />(Oh, happy New Year Joe!!)<br /><br />Rudyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04691715150100698476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-82419793028118204092016-12-31T14:15:26.858-08:002016-12-31T14:15:26.858-08:00why would you link miracles with superstition? The...why would you link miracles with superstition? The two are nothing alike.l superstition is basically fate oriented and thus deterministic. Dark irresistible forces are at work superposition and are triggered by tabbos and we ca't understand,Gods reasons for working miracles may be beyond our understanding but they are not deterministic and they are not governed by irrational rules. they are governed by love and creative wisdom.<br /><br />The idea of superstition is really modern and enlightenment based because it assumes a concept o antiscience that did not exist before the enlightenment.Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-77040204827170798902016-12-31T11:51:03.357-08:002016-12-31T11:51:03.357-08:00Joe, this is tangential (or is it orthogonal??) to...Joe, this is tangential (or is it orthogonal??) to your discussion of the causality/correlation issue and evidence for miracles.<br /><br />As a stereotypical bitter ex-Catholic :), I have to say that the main argument against miracles for me is RELIGIOUS: miracles are just superstition, and the genuine progress Christianity made against ancient religion was the elimination of superstition as spiritually respectable. That miracles remained part of Christian belief (even the central miracle of the Resurrection) shows that the "revolution" wasn't carried all the way through, possibly because of the competition from mystery cults etc. <br /><br /><br />The Reformation got rid of a lot of it, all the saints' miracles etc. More thorough reform happened in mainstream Protestantism (and less orthodox offshoots like Quakers) later.<br /><br /><br />Why do you want to bring all that stuff back? Lourdes is sick and depressing to this ex-Catholic, not inspirational. I feel very emotionally harmed by the constant miracle mongering I had to listen to in Catholic School.Rudyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04691715150100698476noreply@blogger.com