tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post3772273886532200267..comments2024-03-28T08:35:59.048-07:00Comments on Metacrock's Blog: Apologetocs vs Science, argument vs. factJoseph Hinman (Metacrock)http://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comBlogger80125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-52634909548721401832017-02-13T10:20:37.749-08:002017-02-13T10:20:37.749-08:00Stardusty Psyche said...
Joe Hinman said...
"...Stardusty Psyche said...<br />Joe Hinman said...<br /><br />" you are pretending that your speculations and assertions are as good as proof."<br />Science doesn't do proof.<br /><br /><b>you don't do science</b>Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-72570238055157030732017-02-13T05:04:28.039-08:002017-02-13T05:04:28.039-08:00Joe Hinman said...
" you are pretending t...Joe Hinman said...<br /><br />" you are pretending that your speculations and assertions are as good as proof."<br />Science doesn't do proof.<br /><br /><br /> 3:53 AMStardustyPsychehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12493629973262220492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-76043976946779841242017-02-13T03:53:38.886-08:002017-02-13T03:53:38.886-08:00you are pretending that your speculations and asse...you are pretending that your speculations and assertions are as good as proof.Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-12140468788681763592017-02-12T13:08:18.289-08:002017-02-12T13:08:18.289-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-13444479832136543972017-02-12T11:38:09.136-08:002017-02-12T11:38:09.136-08:00Joe Hinman said...
" you can't preten...Joe Hinman said...<br /><br />" you can't pretend there's a genetic basis to it just because you don't want to believe in God."<br />True, I'm not pretending.<br /><br /> 11:00 AMStardustyPsychehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12493629973262220492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-56875336035943348672017-02-12T11:06:38.132-08:002017-02-12T11:06:38.132-08:00The simplest explanation is that in the harsh envi...The simplest explanation is that in the harsh environment of our ancestors self destructive behavior tended to lead toward self destruction.<br /><br /><br /><b>that has no bearing on mystical experience, people who such experiences are much less ;crazy than those who do't, they are together score higher tests related to self actualization meaning they are more mature more sane and more understanding,</b>Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-77257574387131159672017-02-12T11:00:42.973-08:002017-02-12T11:00:42.973-08:00Life is fundamentally selfish, but social animals ...Life is fundamentally selfish, but social animals behave socially because we have evolved to have better chance of reproduction through cooperation. In a complex social animal there is a complicated mix of selfish behaviors, altruistic behaviors, and side effect behaviors.<br /><br /><br /><b> you can't pretend there's a genetic basis to it just because you don't want to believe in God. </b><br /><br />Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-81078511062916905442017-02-12T10:55:31.605-08:002017-02-12T10:55:31.605-08:00Because people who drove themselves crazy just by ...Because people who drove themselves crazy just by thinking ended up dead before they could reproduce."<br /><br />that means some did, they did it, they drove themselves crazy. past tense means it happened, if you really meant to say non one did that because they had this would have happened then you should have said that, you have no communication skills.Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-33790206734799639112017-02-12T09:26:08.430-08:002017-02-12T09:26:08.430-08:00Mike Gerow said...
" But then you have to de...Mike Gerow said...<br /><br />" But then you have to deal the idea that that's how the UNIVERSE itself is/was structured, with a bias towards human selflessness, so it's all not just explainable by "brain structure""<br />Our observable universe is a big place compared to our brain. While my brain is made of the same basic stuff, its arrangement is very different than, say, a galaxy.<br /><br />Life is fundamentally selfish, but social animals behave socially because we have evolved to have better chance of reproduction through cooperation. In a complex social animal there is a complicated mix of selfish behaviors, altruistic behaviors, and side effect behaviors.<br /><br /><br /> 9:06 AMStardustyPsychehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12493629973262220492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-52619577696619683992017-02-12T09:17:56.084-08:002017-02-12T09:17:56.084-08:00oe Hinman said...
" It doesn't matter...oe Hinman said...<br /><br />" It doesn't matter because either way there's no evidence people drive themselves crazy,the only comprehension solitaire here is his failure to understand the arguments, he;s too obsessed with insulting to get even for the trouncing I gave him on dangerous idea,,"<br />Reading skills, I never claimed that anybody was driving themselves crazy, I was giving a reason why they don't. Get the difference? I have noticed you do not grasp the content of sentences unless they are very simple, direct, and in a blocked out format. Nuance of conversation easily escapes you. I suggest you slow down, compensate for your reading problem, and try to focus more on what was actually written in context.<br /><br />Mike has been raising the valid point as to why these states of mind would necessarily be beneficial. Why don't they lead to self destructive behaviors? <br /><br />The simplest explanation is that in the harsh environment of our ancestors self destructive behavior tended to lead toward self destruction.<br /><br />But, I suppose you will skim over my words, get all pissed off, and find some way to mangle them, again.<br /><br /><br /> 7:11 AMStardustyPsychehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12493629973262220492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-7923016023338436752017-02-12T09:06:44.816-08:002017-02-12T09:06:44.816-08:00"Sure, the brain is a complicated device. Mos..."Sure, the brain is a complicated device. Most people are basically stable because unstable people tend to die, especially in our harsher past."<br /><br />Well, we could go even further and conjecture that a self-effacing "mystical" experience helps keep focus on the clan, on its survival, but a bit paradoxically, such also improves chances of the thusly-focused individual's survival and propagation, compared to more self-centered behavior. But then you have to deal the idea that that's how the UNIVERSE itself is/was structured, with a bias towards human selflessness, so it's all not just explainable by "brain structure" Mike Gerowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14630695728013930638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-15987881934739918712017-02-12T09:01:36.352-08:002017-02-12T09:01:36.352-08:00Joe Hinman said...
" stop the stupid gam...Joe Hinman said...<br /><br /><br />" stop the stupid game and face the truth, you have not answered my argument,"<br />What argument? Something helps 14% of addicts therefore god? Preposterous.<br /><br /><br />" I just said there some cases that harder to stick to that others, you can't deny that,heroines one of then,So something helped these guys get off Heroine and is amnazing,"<br />I am not amazed. Some techniques are more effective than others. So what?<br /><br /><br />" if you could increase by 14% obviously that much better, So why is it that those who have analytical experience at least 14% more of them find it that much more effective,"<br />Therefore god? Absurd.<br /><br /><br /> 12:06 PM Delete<br /><br /> 7:03 AMStardustyPsychehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12493629973262220492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-44216452867110743602017-02-12T07:11:51.433-08:002017-02-12T07:11:51.433-08:00Dusty said:
"Because people who drove themse...Dusty said:<br /><br />"Because people who drove themselves crazy just by thinking ended up dead before they could reproduce."<br /><br />I said <br /><br />"there is no evidence people drive themselves crazy and die that's just your little mythology at work."<br /><br />is that a failure to comprehend. he says people drove themselves crazy and died before they could reproduce he did;t say they died o being crazy neither did I. They drive themselves crazy and they die that doesn't mean one-causes the other, but I think it;s implied inihis testament they do.<br /><br />It doesn't matter because either way there's no evidence people drive themselves crazy,the only comprehension solitaire here is his failure to understand the arguments, he;s too obsessed with insulting to get even for the trouncing I gave him on dangerous idea,,<br /><br />Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-65699213468160385012017-02-12T07:03:21.915-08:002017-02-12T07:03:21.915-08:00people change their behavior because of heir thoug... people change their behavior because of heir thoughts is bull fucking shit, "<br />So what a person thinks does not change their behavior? How stupidly do you intend to speak here?<br /><br />SP Uhm, Joe, it's called thinking things over, making a decision, and acting on the decision.<br /><br />" you are generalizing based upon your own prejudice and preconceived notion with nothing to back you up. "<br /><br />So, acting on decisions is now simply a matter of my prejudice? How stupid.<br /><br /><br /><b>stop the stupid game and face the truth, you have not answered my argument, I just said there some cases that harder to stick to that others, you can't deny that,heroines one of then,So something helped these guys get off Heroine and is amnazing,<br /><br />documentation of my view:</b><br /><br /><br />http://guidedoc.com/heroin-addiction-treatment-success-rates-statistics<br /><br /><b>Most heroin addicts realize that they cannot kick the habit on their own,</b> because addiction to opioids is a disease in much the same way diabetes is a disease. Several heroin addiction treatment options can help the heroin addict return to a healthy, normal life. These medications are not used on their own to overcome addiction but are offered in conjunction with counseling and a support network of friends or family when possible. Medications can be given as an inpatient or outpatient treatment, and the type of program that is used can have a big impact on completion and success. When it comes to heroin addiction treatment success rates, as part of an outpatient treatment, medication therapy has a 35 percent completion rate, while the completion rate for a residential program was as high as 65 percent, according to the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration (SAMHSA).<br /><br /><br />if you could increase by 14% obviously that much better, So why is it that those who have analytical experience at least 14% more of them find it that much more effective,<br /><br />12:06 PM Delete<br />Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-15080152050054027512017-02-12T06:31:02.928-08:002017-02-12T06:31:02.928-08:00Blogger Joe Hinman said...
"there is no evi...<br />Blogger Joe Hinman said...<br /><br /><br />"there is no evidence people drive themselves crazy and die that's just your little mythology at work."<br />Reading skills. Try reading for comprehension, you really suck at it.<br /><br /><br /> 4:51 AMStardustyPsychehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12493629973262220492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-48059027079006400392017-02-12T06:28:00.794-08:002017-02-12T06:28:00.794-08:00Joe Hinman said...
Joe Hinman said...
&q...Joe Hinman said...<br /><br /> Joe Hinman said...<br /><br /> " people change their behavior because of heir thoughts is bull fucking shit, "<br /> So what a person thinks does not change their behavior? How stupidly do you intend to speak here?<br /><br />SP Uhm, Joe, it's called thinking things over, making a decision, and acting on the decision.<br /><br />" you are generalizing based upon your own prejudice and preconceived notion with nothing to back you up. "<br /><br />So, acting on decisions is now simply a matter of my prejudice? How stupid.<br /><br /><br /> 4:41 AMStardustyPsychehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12493629973262220492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-25293012166767983442017-02-12T04:51:30.468-08:002017-02-12T04:51:30.468-08:00Mike Gerow said...
" The simple question, th...Mike Gerow said...<br /><br />" The simple question, then, is "why is it structured like that?" Why do certain types of weird, unexplainable experiences lead to positive effects (quite possibly even survival-enhancing effects in evolutionary terms) instead of negative or erratic ones,"<br /><br />Dusty:<br />Because people who drove themselves crazy just by thinking ended up dead before they could reproduce.<br /><br /><b>that's really LaMarkian evolution. you are really just spinning moon beam, there is no evidence people drive themselves crazy and die that's just your little mythology at work. There is no evidence that religious ideas are genetic. that's another atheist brain wash myth based upon their non understanding of brain science; their pretense that brain sciece nails it all down when it does not.</b><br /><br /><br />" if they can do that, it seems there might be something there that does need some explaining, you think?"<br /><br />Dusty:<br />Sure, the brain is a complicated device. Most people are basically stable because unstable people tend to die, especially in our harsher past.<br /><br /><b>don't look now but that;s atheist mythology's argument from the gaps,Brain is complex ooooo,we don't all it can do dooooooooo so therefore it must do all the God stuff, wow so it's brilliant! it all fits fit;s together to keep God off my back ,.thank you science! praise scinece!</b>Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-54618635103948115862017-02-12T04:41:39.712-08:002017-02-12T04:41:39.712-08:00Joe Hinman said...
" people change their beh...Joe Hinman said...<br /><br />" people change their behavior because of heir thoughts is bull fucking shit, "<br />So what a person thinks does not change their behavior? How stupidly do you intend to speak here?<br /><br />Uhm, Joe, it's called thinking things over, making a decision, and acting on the decision. <br /><br /><br /><br /><b>you are generalizing based upon your own prejudice and preconceived notion with nothing to back you up. You are also ignoring the case I've already documented that Heroine addiction is a different situation than most. People don't normally stick to resolve to quite Heroine without physicking and mental aid.<br /><br />It is obviously impressive that these experiences enable those who have then to be that much more resolved to stick to thier desireto be free.</b>Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-45846465203379936502017-02-12T04:31:50.881-08:002017-02-12T04:31:50.881-08:00Mike Gerow said...
" The simple question,...Mike Gerow said...<br /><br />" The simple question, then, is "why is it structured like that?" Why do certain types of weird, unexplainable experiences lead to positive effects (quite possibly even survival-enhancing effects in evolutionary terms) instead of negative or erratic ones,"<br />Because people who drove themselves crazy just by thinking ended up dead before they could reproduce.<br /><br /><br />" if they can do that, it seems there might be something there that does need some explaining, you think?"<br />Sure, the brain is a complicated device. Most people are basically stable because unstable people tend to die, especially in our harsher past.<br /><br /><br /> 9:36 PMStardustyPsychehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12493629973262220492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-62201278439591258682017-02-12T04:26:21.682-08:002017-02-12T04:26:21.682-08:00Joe Hinman said...
" people change their ...Joe Hinman said...<br /><br />" people change their behavior because of heir thoughts is bull fucking shit, "<br />So what a person thinks does not change their behavior? How stupidly do you intend to speak here?<br /><br />Uhm, Joe, it's called thinking things over, making a decision, and acting on the decision. <br /><br /><br /> 8:28 PMStardustyPsychehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12493629973262220492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-2805732828009016312017-02-11T22:04:28.616-08:002017-02-11T22:04:28.616-08:00"Ok, but a stronger case for god than we athe..."Ok, but a stronger case for god than we atheists think? "<br /><br />Well, maybe, I dunno? ... It could be, perhaps, if you wanna call it that? ... but it's Joe's concept of God that's on the line here, not mine so much, so I'd best let him argue that with you....Mike Gerowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14630695728013930638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-30900066203962264352017-02-11T21:36:44.225-08:002017-02-11T21:36:44.225-08:00"The simple answer is that humans have variou..."The simple answer is that humans have various states of consciousness due to brain structure. "<br /><br />The simple question, then, is "why is it structured like that?" Why do certain types of weird, unexplainable experiences lead to positive effects (quite possibly even survival-enhancing effects in evolutionary terms) instead of negative or erratic ones, which would seem would seem more likely at least "prima facie", don't you think? <br /><br />What these researchers are saying is, they've developed some criteria to identify similarities in certain kinds of weird experiences across cultures, even if the experiences may have differing intercultural descriptions -- and, in fact, might even have opposing descriptions as in "presence" (Western) and "absence" (Eastern) which we discussed -- and then show that that class of experiences also correlate those with some definable long-lasting concrete effects on the experiencers' personalities...<br /><br />if they can do that, it seems there might be something there that does need some explaining, you think? Mike Gerowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14630695728013930638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-91379946344963377772017-02-11T20:28:29.907-08:002017-02-11T20:28:29.907-08:00Joe Hinman said...
",just unassuming that any...Joe Hinman said...<br />",just unassuming that any thing in the mind is imaginary is just lusciously stupid,"<br /><br /><br />--Dusty: "People change behavior because of their thoughts. If they imagine something those ideas can change behavior even if the thing they imagine does not actually exist outside of their imagination."-- [end quote]<br /><br /><br />Those are 2 very different statements. Yours is a strawman of mine<br />\<br /><b>people change their behavior because of heir thoughts is bull fucking shit, the statement i quoted about Heroine addiction said they give it up just because want to without help and mecicne,<br /><br />YOU HAVE NO EVIENDECE ON TAHT PINT AND i DO, SO YOU LOSE </b>Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-59516525660078528652017-02-11T19:43:50.128-08:002017-02-11T19:43:50.128-08:00Mike Gerow said...
" The point is, in sim...Mike Gerow said...<br /><br />" The point is, in simple terms, or as simple as I can make them...<br /><br /> IF your claim is "there's nothing to this religion stuff"-- which, I admit, is something I'm just assuming here, I guess"<br />That's a reasonable guess, but not precisely my assertion. I am personally convinced there is no god, but religion is a real human tendancy.<br /><br /><br />"-- AND if people have "mystical experiences" that expose them to some kind of "ineffable otherness" which they take to be at the center of reality, THEN instead of "becoming better people" as Joe's research suggests, why don't they just ...go INSANE or something?<br /><br /> Joe's argument doesn't depend on positing some kind of particular cause for any particular experience; it really more of an ontological thing ... and it makes a stronger case than you guys realize, I think."<br />Ok, but a stronger case for god than we atheists think? <br /><br />So, Vishnu is the case because yogi's in India have mystical experiences? How about native Americans? Some Indians will have mystical experiences about their perceived spirit world.<br /><br />No, I don't think so. The simple answer is that humans have various states of consciousness due to brain structure. <br /><br />Pointing out some statistics about good things happening to those with certain experiences is really a bankrupt argument for god.<br /><br /><br /> 2:09 PMStardustyPsychehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12493629973262220492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-23746595619714965662017-02-11T14:09:26.213-08:002017-02-11T14:09:26.213-08:00The point is, in simple terms, or as simple as I c...The point is, in simple terms, or as simple as I can make them...<br /><br />IF your claim is "there's nothing to this religion stuff"-- which, I admit, is something I'm just assuming here, I guess -- AND if people have "mystical experiences" that expose them to some kind of "ineffable otherness" which they take to be at the center of reality, THEN instead of "becoming better people" as Joe's research suggests, why don't they just ...go INSANE or something? <br /><br />Joe's argument doesn't depend on positing some kind of particular cause for any particular experience; it really more of an ontological thing ... and it makes a stronger case than you guys realize, I think.Mike Gerowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14630695728013930638noreply@blogger.com