tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post1067757998416230567..comments2024-03-28T15:31:02.860-07:00Comments on Metacrock's Blog: Answeing Jeff Lowder, part 1: Demograsphics of SalvationJoseph Hinman (Metacrock)http://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-64060975503722882122016-02-05T23:52:43.031-08:002016-02-05T23:52:43.031-08:00Paul spoke of the church in terms of he mystical b...Paul spoke of the church in terms of he mystical body but he also dealt with institutions because he was organizing a movement. He was too great an abstract thinker to not think of the church in abstract terms.Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-87907814517138445002016-01-14T02:10:05.748-08:002016-01-14T02:10:05.748-08:00A agree. Definitely not "a church". Ther...A agree. Definitely not "a church". There is only "the Church". Who said where and when to join a man made institution? What man made institution do you have in mind? With apostle Paul, I only see man made institutions - which are definitely problematic - in formation of denominations within the body of Christ (1 Cor 1,12-17). All man made "stuff" collapses eventually. However, God made "stuff" never perishes.<br /><br />AleksiosAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-25197984625170908382016-01-13T07:29:54.893-08:002016-01-13T07:29:54.893-08:00Jesus never told us to join a church. he never sai...Jesus never told us to join a church. he never said "you must join the church to be born again." Knowing Jesus puts you in the body of Christ, but I'm talking about man made institutions. <br />Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-4521580550984528442016-01-12T02:35:55.472-08:002016-01-12T02:35:55.472-08:00I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. I was post...I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. I was posting my view (which is as you figured out at least mostly aligned with yours) on the basis of your statements "I also no longer see the church as the agent of salvation" and "Membership in the church is not what saves us". In my understanding of your words I cannot repeat after you. <br /><br />But I think figuring out the most appropriate word for who or what exactly is the agent and who or what exactly saves us is not so important. As I stressed, the most important thing for us after Christ is to get into Christ and to stay in Christ (i.e. in his body, the Church). The most sure way for the first is baptism and for the latter it is to live out of this baptism: with baptism we die as individuals and are born into a community with others and with God - "the Church", where we are invited to <b>lay down our lives for others</b> - to live "in a God's way".<br /><br />As for the way around baptism, yes, we have Paul, and also Jesus, who in Mt 25 explains what are the concrete actions for living "in a God's way" for the ones that did not "meet" Him in all their lives (feed the hungry, welcome strangers etc.). The most important thing in the law on the heart is therefore to <b>think about others and act in their favor</b> (the second part of the first and the most important commandment), i.e. de facto living a communion. This will be "the criteria" in the final judgment for the gentiles.<br /><br />As for the ones before incarnation there is a similar but somewhat different story (yes, the Jews had the Law, but the gentiles had the law on the heart even back then):<br /><i>... the dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. He opened heaven's gates for the just who had gone before him.</i> (more at http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1R.HTM)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-23312120328839207342016-01-11T11:28:11.777-08:002016-01-11T11:28:11.777-08:00Right, I said up front nothing I said should be ta...Right, I said up front nothing I said should be taken to mean Jesus isn't the one saving you. Of course it's better to know Jesus directly. Nor did I say anyone is earning. Jews before Christ were under the law. We do not believe they all went to hell do we? Paul says gentiles have the law on the heart.Joseph Hinman (Metacrock)https://www.blogger.com/profile/06957529748541493998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11516215.post-14374276767020881972016-01-11T06:09:40.235-08:002016-01-11T06:09:40.235-08:00First of all, excuse me my English. I'm not na...First of all, excuse me my English. I'm not native speaker. <br /><br />My understanding:<br /><br />There is no deed(s) through which we could "earn" eternal life with God. All our efforts do not suffice. This is only by grace.<br /><br />The grace is in this: Nobody can go to or "appear" in front of the Father but the Son (Jesus and Nicodemus). The Church is the body of Christ (st. Paul) therefore the only way to "appear" before the Father is "by his Son", i.e. as a part of his body, the Church.<br /><br />The most important thing is to get <b>into Christ</b> and then to stay <b>in Christ</b>. The "normal" way of "getting in" is through baptism but there are other ways, more or less known only to the Lord (e.g. the criminal on the cross with Jesus).<br /><br />However, by "getting in" we not only benefit but the more we benefit the more we are obliged to act so the others will also benefit (absent lord and servants entrusted with money), i.e. mission, spreading the good news etc.<br /><br />As far as I know this is the understanding of the first Church fathers and also understanding of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.<br /><br />Many blessings,<br />AleksiosAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com